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[Suggestion] Either Limit Clansizes Or Implement Size-Based Brackets @ Leaderboards


Marijan
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Yea, this is a ridiculous argument. If you feel that a group that is able to collect more members by way of advertising themselves is not fair because smaller groups don't know how or don't want to exert the same energy then there is some serious logic issues going on here. 

 

The argument presented here is "Give the smaller clans a chance to compete with larger clans for the same prizes by reducing the effectiveness of having a large clan" answer NO you will kill this game and any other.

 

Though an argument could be made that says "Create events for clans of all sizes to compete for clan prizes" Maybe the top 5,10,15 (which ever) clan members will compete in an event for X prize. This limits the collective effort and singles out the best players. A counter argument to this is "these players are too good, we need another handicap."

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Its not about the raid example simply cause there are no raids.

Its about the simple fact that large clans will continue to grow.

Steve and the devs promised competitive, clan vs clan control objectives.

What do you think what will happen when that is implemented?

 

I'll tell you. The top 10 size will dominate everything.

Not because of skill, not because of tactics, not because of quality, not because of communication, not because of ANYTHING.

They will dominate because of 1 single reason: They have 200+ members with the first already being close to 1000.

 

So to get you back on track: The question is not equality, top lists or side boards.

The question is the point in competitive clan play when everyone will join the largest clan possible (that has no rules whatsoever and invites everyone on sight), and then flat out dominate everything.

The question is the point in the entire clan system and the creation of any clans further down the right, when everyone will simply join the largest clans.

 

As they should. They have higher total man hours put into the event and will be rewarded as such. You can not seems to grasp the simple concept that man power IS an asset, in both real life and in games. Divising a system to serve as an equalizer only alienates a single group of player, the larger one and have no down side for the smaller one.

 

It is YOUR choice to join the small clan, small enough to not be able to compete. There are multiple decent sized clan on the top 100 leader board for the Moa event, including several really small one. You simple have to make up the man hour difference by sinking more time per member.

 

As for being faceless in a large clan. That is once again, your preference. Warbros cherishes anonymity, and they sure as hell don't invite everyone to join, only a very specific group of people. It is once again your own assumption on the subject.

Edited by Derpius
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Yea, this is a ridiculous argument. If you feel that a group that is able to collect more members by way of advertising themselves is not fair because smaller groups don't know how or don't want to exert the same energy then there is some serious logic issues going on here. 

 

The argument presented here is "Give the smaller clans a chance to compete with larger clans for the same prizes by reducing the effectiveness of having a large clan" answer NO you will kill this game and any other.

 

Though an argument could be made that says "Create events for clans of all sizes to compete for clan prizes" Maybe the top 5,10,15 (which ever) clan members will compete in an event for X prize. This limits the collective effort and singles out the best players. A counter argument to this is "these players are too good, we need another handicap."

Wrong on multiple accounts since you are moving the concept of "clan" back and forth.

A clan's definition can be changed by the developers at leisure.

At present it entitles any number of people, yet this can be changed to 20-50-100-500-w/e max in the future. After such a change, a clan would be still a clan. The number does not influence the definition itself.

It is in fact your notion of thought which is ridiculous cause by your logic, the entire player base should be joining one single clan for ultimate dominance.

 

Quality and Quantity need to be in a state of balance.

If i create a clan of 50 members which has professional standards, it will be still chanceless against a clan that houses 1000 noobs.

So sorry. The whole notion of this defeats the purpose of having standards with the creation of a guild. This should not be the case, and you should not be owning the entire game FOR ABSOLUTELY NO EFFORT just because you joined a facebook/twitter/reddit clan that invites every and anybody and has whatever thousand members.

 

It is YOUR choice to join the small clan, small enough to not be able to compete. There are multiple decent sized clan on the top 100 leader board for the Moa event, including several really small one. You simple have to make up the man hour difference by sinking more time per member.

Refer to above. You should not be entitled to no effort victories and items, just because you have joined a clan with 1000 members.

The concept of man power can be adjusted to clan member caps as well.

Whether we are talking about 1000 100 or 10 man cap clans, the concept of man power remains the same: Active players who wish to contribute towards the cause. Only in the case of a thousand man guild, you do not need to give a damn about man power or the quality of your recruits, since sheer numbers take everything.

Edited by Aerensiniac
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Wrong on multiple accounts since you are moving the concept of "clan" back and forth.

A clan's definition can be changed by the developers at leisure.

At present it entitles any number of people, yet this can be changed to 20-50-100-500-w/e max in the future.

It is in fact your notion of thought which is ridiculous cause by your logic, the entire player base should be joining one single clan for ultimate dominance.

 

Quality and Quantity need to be in a state of balance.

If i create a clan of 50 members which has professional standards, it will be still chanceless against a clan that houses 1000 noobs.

So sorry. The whole notion of this defeats the purpose of having standards with the creation of a guild. This should not be the case, and you should not be owning the entire game FOR ABSOLUTELY NO EFFORT just because you joined a facebook/twitter/reddit clan that invites every and anybody.

 

What a hypocrite. The clan system has already set up in place by the developer. You don't like it, so you're crying to get it changed for your own benefit.

 

As it should be. Despite what you wish to believe, no 50 man can beat a 1000 man team at any menial labor tasks. No matter how skilled or how experience you might think you are. You are also making the false assumption that there are no skilled player on the larger team. For absolutely no effort? Yea, because the efforts of other are invalidated simply because you said so right? Talk to all the members of Warbros that are sitting on the indvidual top 100 right now.

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In real life, there are penalties for large organizations. All the people have to be paid, for one. You have to have the resources to keep your large organization working. It has to be structured or it falls apart. There is no such a problem in this game, so a large clan is a free resource. There is no reason not to just join the largest clan, and the largest clan will allow you to join because they have no reason not to.

 

I do not have a problem with the system at present, but I do see the original point. Eventually it will be very hard to make a new clan, and two or three clans could have 80% of the player population. For the sake of competition, creativity, etc. I could see not liking that. But meh, I'll just try to join a large clan.

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Yea, this is a ridiculous argument. If you feel that a group that is able to collect more members by way of advertising themselves is not fair because smaller groups don't know how or don't want to exert the same energy then there is some serious logic issues going on here. 

 

The argument presented here is "Give the smaller clans a chance to compete with larger clans for the same prizes by reducing the effectiveness of having a large clan" answer NO you will kill this game and any other.

 

Though an argument could be made that says "Create events for clans of all sizes to compete for clan prizes" Maybe the top 5,10,15 (which ever) clan members will compete in an event for X prize. This limits the collective effort and singles out the best players. A counter argument to this is "these players are too good, we need another handicap."

 

Please read the actual posts. We don't want to reduce the effectiveness of large clans (which wouldn't kill the game at all though), but to make smaller ones valid, because it can be seen as fact that they won't be able to compete with the biggest ones in the future. Multiple suggestions were made to give players an actual choice between a small or a big clan, without being excluded from competition and content. Your suggestion was already made, but it didn't seem to be as viable as dividing clans by their sizes into multiple brackets at leaderboards.

Edited by Marijan
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Wrong on multiple accounts since you are moving the concept of "clan" back and forth.

A clan's definition can be changed by the developers at leisure.

At present it entitles any number of people, yet this can be changed to 20-50-100-500-w/e max in the future. After such a change, a clan would be still a clan. The number does not influence the definition itself.

It is in fact your notion of thought which is ridiculous cause by your logic, the entire player base should be joining one single clan for ultimate dominance.

 

Quality and Quantity need to be in a state of balance.

If i create a clan of 50 members which has professional standards, it will be still chanceless against a clan that houses 1000 noobs.

So sorry. The whole notion of this defeats the purpose of having standards with the creation of a guild. This should not be the case, and you should not be owning the entire game FOR ABSOLUTELY NO EFFORT just because you joined a facebook/twitter/reddit clan that invites every and anybody.

 

Refer to above. You should not be entitled to no effort victories and items, just because you have joined a clan with 1000 members.

The concept of man power can be adjusted to clan member caps as well.

Whether we are talking about 1000 100 or 10 man cap clans, the concept of man power remains the same: Active players who wish to contribute towards the cause. Only in the case of a thousand man guild, you do not need to give a damn about man power or the quality of your recruits, since sheer numbers take everything.

So instead of popping off and replying understand the posts you are presumably reading. The statement " Maybe the top 5,10,15 (which ever) clan members will compete in an event for X prize.

Refers to individual Members of a clan participating in an event. So instead of all of a single clan contributing to a score only a select few can. Its possible I did not write this clearly enough.

 

In every MMO larger clans take an extreme amount of leadership to run and even in those cases these clans tend to break apart and reform as individual members group with friends that they have made. There are even instances of members being kicked for non-participation.

 

Again the original argument is invalid. Those that want to join larger clans should not be penalized and neither should those who want to be in smaller clans, but both sides must understand when it comes to competition one has the advantage and one does not.

The only way to make this a valid argument is to look at the competitions take for instance this image 

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/936620_592584124095936_1983103785_n.jpg while the context is around education. The idea is a "Fair" test that obviously caters to one side. Therefore change the competitions (Not All) to limit the number of same Clan participants. Argument over.

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Please read the actual posts. We don't want to reduce the effectiveness of large clans (which wouldn't kill the game at all though), but to make smaller ones valid, because it can be seen as fact that they won't be able to compete with the biggest ones in the future. Multiple suggestions were made to give players an actual choice between a small or a big clan, without being excluded from competition and content. Your suggestion was already made, but it didn't seem to be as viable as dividing clans by their sizes into multiple brackets at leaderboards.

 

I know this is not your intent but this is the result of the current argument. While we do not always intend a negative result, they will happen if not looked at objectively.

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Again the original argument is invalid. Those that want to join larger clans should not be penalized and neither should those who want to be in smaller clans, but both sides must understand when it comes to competition one has the advantage and one does not.

The only way to make this a valid argument is to look at the competitions take for instance this image 

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/936620_592584124095936_1983103785_n.jpg while the context is around education. The idea is a "Fair" test that obviously caters to one side. Therefore change the competitions (Not All) to limit the number of same Clan participants. Argument over.

I know this is not your intent but this is the result of the current argument. While we do not always intend a negative result, they will happen if not looked at objectively.

 

If this argument is "invalid" and over in your point of view, please refrain from posting from now on, because your posts add nothing to the completely valid discussion.

 

@liavelenth: I see where you are coming from, but please don't dig too much into those comparisons. I would prefer it if people could stop trying to compare this topic to something else, because that will only start to confuse other users and all of those comparisons have flaws.

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If this argument is "invalid" and over in your point of view, please refrain from posting from now on, because your posts add nothing to the completely valid discussion.

 

@liavelenth: I see where you are coming from, but please don't dig too much into those comparisons. I would prefer it if people could stop trying to compare this topic to something else, because that will only start to confuse other users and all of those comparisons have flaws.

Apologies, not trying to anger anyone. Looking at it objectively.

 

 

Again the original argument is invalid. Those that want to join larger clans should not be penalized and neither should those who want to be in smaller clans, but both sides must understand when it comes to competition one has the advantage and one does not.

The only way to make this a valid argument is to look at the competitions, take for instance this image 

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/936620_592584124095936_1983103785_n.jpg while the context is around education. The idea is a "Fair" test that obviously caters to one side. Therefore change the competitions (Not All) to limit the number of same Clan participants. Argument over.

Edited by TMadness
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Then you're still not reading and getting angry at the first thing you see. 

 

I read every post in this thread. Did you? I'm not angry at all, but someone who repeats what has been already said by other users and declares a lively discussion as "invalid" and "over" based on his own opinions doesn't contribute much to the topic. You shared your point of view and it has been recognized, so please stop repeating yourself (and others). Your suggestions has already been made, but doesn't seem to be a good alternative, compared to the division of clans at the leaderboards by their sizes for reasons which have been already mentioned in this thread.

Edited by Marijan
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So you'd rather force people who would not want to be divided to divide themselves. But this is a better option than just changing the structure of the competitions and prize allocations? You're saying that's the best idea on the table right now?

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In real life, there are penalties for large organizations. All the people have to be paid, for one. You have to have the resources to keep your large organization working. It has to be structured or it falls apart. There is no such a problem in this game, so a large clan is a free resource. There is no reason not to just join the largest clan, and the largest clan will allow you to join because they have no reason not to.

 

I do not have a problem with the system at present, but I do see the original point. Eventually it will be very hard to make a new clan, and two or three clans could have 80% of the player population. For the sake of competition, creativity, etc. I could see not liking that. But meh, I'll just try to join a large clan.

This post shows that you are, with no offense intended, simply ignorant of the way large clans work in Warframe.

 

Of specific note, joining other people for missions is much harder in a large clan due to the horribly-implemented clan list. In Warbros you can barely find the people you want to play with because you have to manually scroll the scrollbar a pixel at a time to avoid moving the list 20 people past where you wanted to be. The clan list also spazzes out updating the status of everyone online, making names jump around and further increasing difficulty.

 

The chat can also be difficult to follow as it is often moving at 60-100 lines per minute. This is certainly a problem small clans do not face, but it is accepted as part of being in a large clan. There's also the dynamic of maintaining order and being fair to a thousand people at once without alienating large blocks of your population and causing them to split off.

 

Further, large clans DO have a reason not to accept absolutely everyone: quality of players and quality of communication. If you accept a bunch of children who enjoy spamming "le xD so funny guise I colored my Ash all black and red and gave it a Paris", your clan chat is going to look like a daycare center. It's also silly to join a clan mission just to be grouped with a bunch of bowmags, which is what people usually join clans to avoid in the first place.

 

So, no, large clans are not a free resource, they have costs and difficulties associated with them that smaller clans do not encounter. Please stop believing that large clans are getting a free ride.

 

edit: typos

Edited by Wellthen
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So you'd rather force people who would not want to be divided to divide themselves. But this is a better option than just changing the structure of the competitions and prize allocations? You're saying that's the best idea on the table right now?

 

You didn't understand it at all. Currently there is a single leaderboard for all clans, regardless of their size, which makes it basically meaningless and excludes smaller clans from the competition and earning those items of "high esteem" for their Dojos. I suggested to have multiple leaderboards for clans of different sizes, so that clans with lets say 20-50 members compete with each other, instead of huge clans which they can't even be compared to, and get the chance to be rewarded for the effort they put into those "operations".

 

Clans are divided into different leaderboards, based on their size / amount of members. Nobody suggested to "split" an existing clan into multiple smaller ones.

 

@Wellthen: That actually favors my suggestions. Although big clans have some disadvantages, they will dominate the leaderboards in the future simply by their size. So players either have to choose between a small and cozy clan, which excludes them from competition and related content or to join one of those huge clans, although they might dislike it. The idea after these suggestions is to make both preferences valid.

Edited by Marijan
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Nothing is wrong with clan sizes.  Think of it this way big clans are more hardcore players and the small clans are normally full of solo types or people that just play when ever.  If you are complaining about the division of clans by size is wrong if you want to be more of a challenge to the larger clans either get more people to join you, or merge with a bigger clan.

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Nothing is wrong with clan sizes.  Think of it this way big clans are more hardcore players and the small clans are normally full of solo types or people that just play when ever.  If you are complaining about the division of clans by size is wrong if you want to be more of a challenge to the larger clans either get more people to join you, or merge with a bigger clan.

 

That's exactly the point. You either have to join or create one of the huge clans in order to compete, although you might dislike it for completely comprehensible reasons. I honestly don't get what you are trying to say with "If you are complaining about the division of clans by size is wrong", but I assume that you did get me wrong as well. I'm not trying to split clans themselves, but to split the leaderboard into multiple brackets in which the clans are divided by their size and compete with clans of similar sizes, which they can actually be compared to and compete with.

 

Furthermore I doubt that the "quality" of players, which you are trying to express as "more hardcore" if I understood you correctly, can be related to the size of their clans, although ambitious players barely have any choice but to join one of the big ones, if they don't want to be excluded from the real competition in the future.

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@Wellthen: That actually favors my suggestions. Although big clans have some disadvantages, they will dominate the leaderboards in the future simply by their size. So players either have to choose between a small and cozy clan, which excludes them from competition and related content or to join one of those huge clans, although they might dislike it. The idea after these suggestions is to make both preferences valid.

 

Both choices currently ARE valid. The player chooses what they want to do based on the pros and cons. What YOU want to do is give everyone a gold star and make the idea of "competition" meaningless by removing everyone who could be a challenge from competing with you, and by giving the same rewards to small clans (who don't deal with the issues players in large clans do) that large clans would earn.

 

If you try to make everyone a winner, winning becomes meaningless.

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Both choices currently ARE valid. The player chooses what they want to do based on the pros and cons. What YOU want to do is give everyone a gold star and make the idea of "competition" meaningless by removing everyone who could be a challenge from competing with you, and by giving the same rewards to small clans (who don't deal with the issues players in large clans do) that large clans would earn.

 

If you try to make everyone a winner, winning becomes meaningless.

 

That's simply not true. I'm trying to enable more players to compete properly, nothing else, without being forced into a huge clan, which can dominate the leaderboards simply by its size.

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That's simply not true. I'm trying to enable more players to compete properly, nothing else, without being forced into a huge clan, which can dominate the leaderboards simply by its size.

That's why the individual player leaderboard exists. If that's all you were trying to do, then it's already been done.

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You didn't understand it at all. Currently there is a single leaderboard for all clans, regardless of their size, which makes it basically meaningless and excludes smaller clans from the competition and earning those items of "high esteem" for their Dojos. I suggested to have multiple leaderboards for clans of different sizes, so that clans with lets say 20-50 members compete with each other, instead of huge clans which they can't even be compared to, and get the chance to be rewarded for the effort they put into those "operations".

 

Clans are divided into different leaderboards, based on their size / amount of members. Nobody suggested to "split" an existing clan into multiple smaller ones.

 

@Wellthen: That actually favors my suggestions. Although big clans have some disadvantages, they will dominate the leaderboards in the future simply by their size. So players either have to choose between a small and cozy clan, which excludes them from competition and related content or to join one of those huge clans, although they might dislike it. The idea after these suggestions is to make both preferences valid.

Marijan I understood that and what I am still trying to explain to you is this. While it initial sounds ok as we walk through it this is how your solution plays out:

 

5 Tiers of clans: 

 

T5 Clans: Clans with more than 100 members

T4 Clans: Clans with 70 - 99 members

T3 Clans: Clans with 40 - 69 members

T2 Clans: Clans with 20 - 39 members

T1 Clans: Clans with 2 - 19 members

 

One issue we can see here is that unless these tiers are constantly updates it is possible for larger clans to compete with even larger clans creating the very scenario we are trying to prevent. While it is easy to say "just code it to automatically update" we need to look at the value of doing this and ask a very important question "is this the most effective way of implementing this solution"

 

Once we determine the best way to divide Clans we move to the actual leader boards and how players will interact, not how they feel but how do they affect players.

 

In the Clan Tier list I created you can see that T1 clans may have an issue if we base a large assumption on the winner is the one larger in size. In the T1 league you could be facing clans with 19 members and you only have 10.

 

I hope this helps you understand that I understood what you are saying. I think it would be easier to place the restriction on the competition instead. It would be cleaner since that is the thing causing the issue. We have no Clan size issues today outside of management so I could not agree that altering Clans now is the answer, but agree if we look at competitions there is a gap.

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What a hypocrite. The clan system has already set up in place by the developer. You don't like it, so you're crying to get it changed for your own benefit.

 

As it should be. Despite what you wish to believe, no 50 man can beat a 1000 man team at any menial labor tasks. No matter how skilled or how experience you might think you are. You are also making the false assumption that there are no skilled player on the larger team. For absolutely no effort? Yea, because the efforts of other are invalidated simply because you said so right? Talk to all the members of Warbros that are sitting on the indvidual top 100 right now.

HARR HARR HARR, welcome to the beta. It changes each week you know, so congratulations on calling everyone a hypocrite who has ever made a suggestion or feedback during the entire test phase of the game. Well done.

 

Also: Efforts of other? Associating the word "effort" with warbros?

I+guess+you+could+call+it+a+wet+dream+_c

You have just associated effort with a clan that has the info: We're the biggest clan. We're bros to each other and inscrutable retards to the rest. We push the limits for autism.

 

Oh hell yeah. Invite everyone for the sake of autism and then call it effort. Well done.

Lets not stop here, shall we? Im going to now proceed and check out our top 10!

 

1. Warbros - Inviting any and everyone without questions

2. Warfame Japan - Steam group - Inviting any and everyone without questions

3. Test Clan Please Ignore - Reddit group - Inviting any and everyone without questions

4. JAPANINJA - Clan based on nationality - Inviting any and all japanese without questions

5. Blackmist - Clan based on nationality - Inviting any and all russians

6. TW - Unable to find reference for any clan called "TW"

7. Gryphus Tech Corporation Warframe - Inviting any and everyone without questions

8. The Celestial Shogunate - Small code of conduct, invites any and everyone

9. WiK - Unable to find reference for any clan called "WiK"

10. boobs - Russian gag clan much like Bros - Invites any and everyone

 

With the exception of 2 clans with incomprehensible names that i could not look up, 8 out of 10 are "INVITE ALL" clans.

I pretty much assume that the missing 2 are the same.

Pretty much the entire top 10 is consisting of guilds which did nothing for getting on the top except for massing up members, so please do go on and tell me about this "effort" you have been speaking about. It seems to be turning into a rather amusing comedy.

Edited by Aerensiniac
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That sounds pretty vague. Could you give us a source on the recruiting policies of these "top 10 clans"?

 

 You want an interesting fact?

 

 Warbros is closed to normal recruiting. They only take members in a pretty specific faction.

 

 They don't advertise on the Forums, the Wiki OR in the Game itself and messaging them in any of these places simply wont get you in.

 

 So again - just as food for thought here - keep in mind that the clan on top of the list is actually closed to all but pretty specific recruiting methods. One does not simply become a Warbro. One must already BE a Warbro.

 

 

 Warbros is actually evidence in and of itself that the entire argument that 'Numbers totally override quality' is simply false. We are a smaller clan then the second place and we overtook them by quite a margin. We also don't take on members through any normal means, meaning we aren't rapidly expanding by mass inviting.

 

 

  If there where other clans that were better then Warbros in that event then they'd have beaten us. But they didn't, because Warbros led a crusade and annihilated some Corpus.

 

 We are quantity AND quality - because if we weren't we wouldn't have come out on top.

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In real life, there are penalties for large organizations. All the people have to be paid, for one. You have to have the resources to keep your large organization working. It has to be structured or it falls apart. There is no such a problem in this game, so a large clan is a free resource. There is no reason not to just join the largest clan, and the largest clan will allow you to join because they have no reason not to.

 

I do not have a problem with the system at present, but I do see the original point. Eventually it will be very hard to make a new clan, and two or three clans could have 80% of the player population. For the sake of competition, creativity, etc. I could see not liking that. But meh, I'll just try to join a large clan.

 

So in real life, smaller organiztion can run on without input of resources like in warframe?  The input of resources is the time players put into the game. The smaller clan put less, the larger clan put more.

 

As for organization, it is harder to coordinate players in a big clan, that is true across all games. Then there is also problem with internal dispute, which is much more frequent in a larger clan. Warbros for example, can't stop giving Wiawyr, the clan leader S#&$ everyday, most of us probably find it hilarious.

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You have just associated effort with a clan that has the info: We're the biggest clan. We're bros to each other and inscrutable retards to the rest. We push the limits for autism.

 

Oh hell yeah. Invite everyone for the sake of autism and then call it effort. Well done.

Lets not stop here, shall we? Im going to now proceed and check out our top 10!

 

1. Warbros - Inviting any and everyone without questions

2. Warfame Japan - Steam group - Inviting any and everyone without questions

3. Test Clan Please Ignore - Reddit group - Inviting any and everyone without questions

4. JAPANINJA - Clan based on nationality - Inviting any and all japanese without questions

5. Blackmist - Clan based on nationality - Inviting any and all russians

6. TW - Unable to find reference for any clan called "TW"

7. Gryphus Tech Corporation Warframe - Inviting any and everyone without questions

8. The Celestial Shogunate - Small code of conduct, invites any and everyone

9. WiK - Unable to find reference for any clan called "WiK"

10. boobs - Russian gag clan much like Bros - Invites any and everyone

 

With the exception of 2 clans with incomprehensible names that i could not look up, 8 out of 10 are "INVITE ALL" clans.

I pretty much assume that the missing 2 are the same.

Pretty much the entire top 10 is consisting of guilds which did nothing for getting on the top except for massing up members, so please do go on and tell me about this "effort" you have been speaking about. It seems to be turning into a rather amusing comedy.

Where does it say that Warbros invites everyone? If you had read further in the clan list thread, you would see that they are, and have been, closed to recruitment for some time.

 

In fact, where does it say that for any of those clans? I'd love to see some source for these clans that says "Inviting any and everyone without questions".

 

If all of these clans invite anyone and everyone, why haven't they all just merged into a single clan of 10,000 people?

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