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Primes Have To Be Treated With Fairness And Equity.


Marthrym
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Now that is ugly.

There is no need to use regular Volt now, because you would gimp yourself. That my dear forum goers is a PWE move

Sure there is, I use volt regular for ranged and pure damage spikes due to his innate runes etc. He shouldn't be in melee range to be hit to begin with.

I use the new volt prime taking advantage of his bonus armor and his aura attack rune and make him a melee commander.

 

That being said however, it would be great if frames all had innate traits much like Mesa rather than different skill sets and base stats.

 

Example of mesa:

  • +10% fire rate on dual pistols.
  • +20% reload speed for single sidearms.
  • +50 Health when melee weapon is not equipped.

 

It would be great if say Excalibur did 25% more damage if equipped with a sword/dual swords.

Ember does more damage or has more aoe range if using a flame weapon like the ignis etc.

Volt using electric weps like the obex and lecta gives them a 15% more status chance etc.

 

Little things like that could go a long way.

 

All in all though they really just need to revisit each frames base stats in general because what worked when this game first came out two years ago doesn't really work as well now-a-days.

 

Just like how LoL prefers to release more champs rather than worry about balancing their old ones to bring them up to par of the new ones. Granted, they've started an initiative to remedy that but its a slow process just like it would be here.

Edited by Project-Faolchu
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I'm quite happy with these frames having better stats than their non-prime counterparts.

If they had the same exact stats and just looked pretty, there would be no point grinding for the parts. Seriously, the terrible RNG and DE's failed attempt to make a token system people wanted justifies the need for primes being better.

 

There's a difference between "better stats", and over double base armor and twice the base energy.

 

The stat creep is starting to get a little ridiculous. I'm aware that there were plenty of people who wanted to see some bonuses to Prime frames (although a reasonably fair number argued against that), but if you're going to completely overshadow the original, at the very least allow us to "melt it down" as an actual blueprint requirement.

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There's a difference between "better stats", and over double base armor and twice the base energy.

Again, I still think its justified. So long as DE continues to insist we grind our faces against the RNG gates for a chance at getting the primes we're looking for, their stats must be worth the immense tedium. I literally spent an entire week no-lifing just to get Loki Prime's chassis in the void, I'd like to know my effort wasn't wasted.

The OP makes perfect sense if DE had given us the token system we begged them for before they gave us Baro Ki'Teer.

Edited by Pizzarugi
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Again, I still think its justified. So long as DE continues to insist we grind our faces against the RNG gates for a chance at getting the primes we're looking for, their stats must be worth the immense tedium. I literally spent an entire week no-lifing just to get Loki Prime's chassis in the void, I'd like to know my effort wasn't wasted.

 

Loki Prime boasts 25 base energy and a couple mod polarities over the vanilla version. 25 energy is not double, and Volt Prime also has two additional polarities. The comparison is hardly viable here. Come to think of it, Volt Prime actually has more energy than Loki Prime. Sayeth what, DE?

 

The fact that you spend a week farming for Loki's chassis means that, to some extent, you value those additional polarities and that small boost to juice. It wasn't 100 armor, and it certainly wasn't 200 base energy - but you used that time anyway. What, then, actually excuses Volt Prime for being such a blatant - even gratuitous - upgrade over the original?

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What, then, actually excuses Volt Prime for being such a blatant - even gratuitous - upgrade over the original?

The same thing I've already said before: Because its going to take forever to legitimately obtain all the parts in the void. If Loki Prime is any indication on how difficult it is to obtain new prime parts, I can barely imagine how hard Volt Prime is gonna be to get.

And this is not even taking into consideration about what happens to the void, since DE has stated they're gonna integrate it somehow into the solar system. At least thats what I gathered from their devstream in pax east.

Edited by Pizzarugi
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That's not the point. The point is, is that we're sick of seeing these utter BS changes given to Primes. It started with a speed buff for Rhinoceros. Then an energy pool buff for Loki. Then an armour increase to Nyx. Then boosted shield AND more energy for Nova. They gave Ember an armour increase after that (yet notice how she didn't get 2 buffs like Nova which is so wrong plus she doesn't even have an extra polarity). Finally we have this clown with a titanic energy increase and a gigantic increase to his armour. What's next when they presumably release Ash? Double movement speed and 50% more health?

Rhino Prime: Slow tank, gets speed boost

Ember Prime: Squishy caster, gets armor boost (honestly not that great, but primes SHOULDN'T be that OP over their counterparts)

Nova Prime: Squishy caster, gets armor and energy boost

Nyx Prime: Squishy caster support, gets armor boost and slight speed boost (according to wikia, idk about that one...)

Loki Prime: Squishy runfast support with much energy, gets energy boost *cry*cry*

Volt Prime: Squishy-ish (high shields) runfast, WHATTHE*BLEEP*ENERGYBOOST and armor boost.

Somebody added an extra zero into that boost, methinks.

I really don't think Volt should have more energy than all other frames caster frames

 

Except that you can't. Maximum power capacity does not affect how much energy you get, only how much you have. This is the same reason why the Kohm, Galaxion, Soma Prime, or any other weapon isn't significantly affected by maximum ammo changes.

 

Energy cap increases would make Rage/Quickthinking better and let you use more abilities at once, but it is not a replacement for efficiency.

Except you can because I don't need to use Fleeting on Loki Prime anymore because the massive energy pool. I can get more in orbs/siphon regen than I waste casting Radial Disarm on a room of enemies (Streamline is equipped).

Edited by S7ORM
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I'm "happy" to see many see this issue like I do. Keep in mind I'm voluntarily leaving the "regular" frames out of this to avoid spreading ourselves too far and thin. But I aknowledge the situation does have a very negative impact on them, perhaps even more than on the Primes themselves.

 

I know "marketing scheme" and "cash cow" are certainly terms that passed through DE's "minds" when making the decisions regarding Primes and their stats. I can perfectly understand the need for money. But doing things this way is just disgusting. It's low and stupid. Everyone can see right through it, yet DE just keeps digging, and digging, and digging. At some point they won't be able to crawl out of this hole. And everyone will have lost. Us, because yet another great game and devs will have lost their souls to the all mighty Gods of profit, and DE because they will eventually lose a lot more money than they made with all this bullsh!t they're pulling on their players, just like they will lose most of the players who had stuck with them for the long run. Players who trusted them (maybe foolishly?).

 

2015 is supposed to be the "year of quality". Up to this point, all I can say is that you, DE, are LIERS. You LIED through your teeth to your community. Still are. How are we supposed to trust you know what you're doing, when all you do is try to make money in such devious ways? Do you really think this is how you should do it? Do you really have such a low opinion of us? Haven't we proven that we SUPPORT you? That YOU can TRUST US? Even if we can be fickle and throw tantrums in the forum (it's kinda the point of forums you know...)? What's more important to you, your community and reputation, or just making money and insulting the people who trusted you to not turn on them?

 

So I reiterate, let US choose. Give US this "power", since it clearly either got to your heads, or can't be trusted to do things in a FAIR way. I have no illusions, this is a long shot. But I don't give a crap, I'll keep trying like the stubborn motherf!cker that I am.

Edited by Marthrym
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I have to agree sadly, Nova and Volt have a pretty useful stat boost whereas Nyx as an example haves a armor boost who does nothing much for her, in some way we should be able to choose what stats to buff, via in-game items/power points or community feedback.

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So Volt Prime was just released. Yay.

With TWO HUGE bonus stats, especially compared to the first Primed frames which are STILL WAITING after more than a FULL YEAR since the "bonus stat" trend started.

...

Yeah, they need to nerf him back to the ground to be balance. It's out of hand alright.
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For weapons, the increased ammo capacity simply delays the inevitable. You are either gaining more ammo than you are using (aka 'ammo efficient') or you are using more ammo than you are gaining ('ammo inefficient'). The same principal applies to abilities, but with the key difference being that one ability can use a sizable chunk of your energy all at once.

It is really a question of use case though. If all you care about is how many abilities you can use at once, energy capacity may be a solution. If you care about how many abilities you can use total, efficiency would be better.

 

As for the drop chance of energy orbs, they do seem more common. Health orbs have never dropped from enemies (excluding Kubrow and Archwing), but I haven't seen any difference.

 

As you pointed out there is a difference between weapons and abilities. With a Flow (or Primed Flow) I can completely forgo efficiency on my Chroma. Without the flow my abilities drain too much of my energy bar and I can only cast ~one. I've seen people do the same with Loki Prime but I never tried it since I decided to skip primed flow (and regret doing so). Generally speaking efficiency is only better when low duration isn't an issue or when there is more than enough room to slot some compensatory duration. For some builds, low duration is a negative.

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The extra armor makes it possible to go with HP instead of shield, the extra energy makes volt shield stacking easier without a trintiy next to you or tapping your energy restore key every 30s, again only useful of high level stuff. Overall it makes sense and helps in endless missions, without much impact outside of it. While the buffs sound massive, 15 armor is like nothing, even 100 is not that much if you look how it scales with a 740 HP pool and more energy on frames that have to stack abilitys a lot is more of a quality of life thing then anything else. It is nothing game breaking and a sensible buff in my opinion.

 

As for the OP:

 

A rant doesn't help anybody, not you, not other players, not the devs and also not the game. It is always a good thing to write down complains after sleeping a night over it, in a sensible way instead of getting carried away. Letting the players chose is a bad idea, since this will always end up min maxing anyway, giving you just the false impression of a choice. I could deal with prime frames having the same stats as the normal ones, because I don't think any of the bonuses are game changing at high levels.

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The extra armor makes it possible to go with HP instead of shield, the extra energy makes volt shield stacking easier without a trintiy next to you or tapping your energy restore key every 30s, again only useful of high level stuff. Overall it makes sense and helps in endless missions, without much impact outside of it. While the buffs sound massive, 15 armor is like nothing, even 100 is not that much if you look how it scales with a 740 HP pool and more energy on frames that have to stack abilitys a lot is more of a quality of life thing then anything else. It is nothing game breaking and a sensible buff in my opinion.

 

As for the OP:

 

A rant doesn't help anybody, not you, not other players, not the devs and also not the game. It is always a good thing to write down complains after sleeping a night over it, in a sensible way instead of getting carried away. Letting the players chose is a bad idea, since this will always end up min maxing anyway, giving you just the false impression of a choice. I could deal with prime frames having the same stats as the normal ones, because I don't think any of the bonuses are game changing at high levels.

 

15 to 100 armor is a pretty big increase in damage reduction. Shield stacking is hardly a necessity. Since when is an armor increase classified as a quality of life change? This is a ridiculously over the top buff on par with Nova Prime's buff in terms of the number of stat boosts the prime frame received. Since I know DE isn't going to tone either of them down I can at least hope that they'll finally revisit frost prime, excal prime, and ember prime (still needs that extra polarity).

 

On your min-max theory, that isn't true. If I was given the choice of what stat to boost on my Loki Prime I would have boosted his sprint speed just because.

Edited by SquirmyBurrito
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The extra armor makes it possible to go with HP instead of shield, the extra energy makes volt shield stacking easier without a trintiy next to you or tapping your energy restore key every 30s, again only useful of high level stuff. Overall it makes sense and helps in endless missions, without much impact outside of it. While the buffs sound massive, 15 armor is like nothing, even 100 is not that much if you look how it scales with a 740 HP pool and more energy on frames that have to stack abilitys a lot is more of a quality of life thing then anything else. It is nothing game breaking and a sensible buff in my opinion.

 

As for the OP:

 

A rant doesn't help anybody, not you, not other players, not the devs and also not the game. It is always a good thing to write down complains after sleeping a night over it, in a sensible way instead of getting carried away. Letting the players chose is a bad idea, since this will always end up min maxing anyway, giving you just the false impression of a choice. I could deal with prime frames having the same stats as the normal ones, because I don't think any of the bonuses are game changing at high levels.

The issue lies just as much in the magnitude of the bonus than it does it's utility.

Look at Nyx Prime. A useless 35 bonus armor. Look at Volt's armor bonus now. See the issue?

Then look at Loki Prime's energy bonus, or even Nova Prime. Now let's look at Volt's. Again. BIG difference.

Volt Prime's bonus stats are much higher than the "average" other Primes got. He's way out of bound, even moreso than Nova Prime. It would be an issue for many even if all Prime received the same treatment because of their vast superiority over their non Primed counterparts, but that's just one more problem on top the pile. It has to be addressed.

 

The bonus stats Volt received grant him a gigantic leap forward in terms of survivability and "spam potential", not only compared to any other frame, but especially compared to his "regular" counterpart. This isn't fair in any conceivable way.

 

I'm not ranting. Ranting would be just pointless venting. What I am doing here is pointing out a huge issue, that is only getting bigger. And judging by the other comments in this thread, my concerns feel both shared and justifed to me.

 

As for min-maxing, it's largely irrelevant. And it's still MUCH better than the current situation anyway. Not to mention the devs themselves "encourage" min-maxing, the Corrupted mods are proof of it.

Edited by Marthrym
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15 to 100 armor is a pretty big increase in damage reduction. Shield stacking is hardly a necessity. Since when is an armor increase classified as a quality of life change? This is a ridiculously over the top buff on par with Nova Prime's buff in terms of the number of stat boosts the prime frame received. Since I know DE isn't going to tone either of them down I can at least hope that they'll finally revisit frost prime, excal prime, and ember prime (still needs that extra polarity).

 

On your min-max theory, that isn't true. If I was given the choice of what stat to boost on my Loki Prime I would have boosted his sprint speed just because.

 

The energy pool size is qulity of life and I wouldn't call shield stacking unnessesary at high levels. 15 armor is like nothing, with 100 armor you have the choice to take vitality over redirection on volt prime, what is a good thing, since it gives the frame flexiblity and a much better preformance when slash procs and toxin make shield nearly useless.

 

Min maxing is a thing, not a theorie but my experince from years of doing HC raiding or other types of high level PVE, whenever you give people a choice and have sufficent enught difficult content where that choice actually matters, it ends up to remove the choice and use what works best.

 

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Volt's higher armor is not exactly going to make him a tank, and more energy, while allowing some extra spamming, isn't going to change that he isn't a 4 spam character. IMO the stat increases I've seen have been a nice perk to having the prime but have not been over the top. The primes take a lot more work and resources to farm and build - it seems right to me that they would be slightly better. I can respect that others disagree. 

 

I agree that the new primes have gotten more useful boosts than the earlier releases, but that could be due to the jokes about how useless some of the earlier stat boosts were (like Nyx's increased armor).

 

It would only be fair to give at least Frost and probably Excal a similar stat boost(s) to catch them up. I do not feel like that would be a detrimental level of powercreep.

 

Just my 2 plat. 

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15 to 100 armor is a pretty big increase in damage reduction. 

It was done to remove the squishy feel that volt user were complaining about in a few topics. If you have 100 armor it makes using life-strike builds viable; it does not, however, move you into the range that you are able to ever remotely face tank or not get gang mauled by infested. 

 

Yes, going from basically no armor to having decent armor is a big jump. It's going to let him be a melee Warframe, I want DE to consider buffing Excalibur Prime and others in a similar way.

 

So many old primes need a second look, their bonus was a polarity and that is next to worthless with how forma is both easy to get and exist. When Excalibur Prime first came out there was no forma, so his 'v' was a big deal, now it's pointless.

Edited by LazyKnight
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