Primes Have To Be Treated With Fairness And Equity.

[Thaumatos]

Maybe they realize that armor needs a massive boost if they're giving a 15 armor frame 100...

Or maybe it's just more DE logic...

[ndantony]

Volt's higher armor is not exactly going to make him a tank, and more energy, while allowing some extra spamming, isn't going to change that he isn't a 4 spam character. IMO the stat increases I've seen have been a nice perk to having the prime but have not been over the top. The primes take a lot more work and resources to farm and build - it seems right to me that they would be slightly better. I can respect that others disagree.

...

For Volt Prime, it is at least helped free up a slot or two used for armor mods, or otherwise some critical tradeoffs that Volt players have been dealing with. But that also gives reason for stat boost request for users of other frames, seeing their frames, having similar issue. Edited March 25, 2015 by ndantony

[Gr33hn]

Let the players make the choices for you, because evidently you can't. Remove all stats, and give each Prime one (or two if you really want to) bonus "chips" that the PLAYERS can put on the stat THEY want. NOT you.

 

That is one very interesting idea, one up for you Marthrym.

[Djego27]

stuff

 

Well as for the magnitude, it really depends if you look at it from the perspective of symmetric or asymmetric game ballanceing. Given that in Warframe most stuff is asymmetricly ballanced, lets go with that. Nyx is mostly ballanced around not getting hit at all, as most strong CC frames. Volt on the other hand can be played very fast, agressive and at close range if you chose to do so, where the high armor makes sense. It also helps to give you the choice between redirection and vitality, on a frame with a very high shield value(that however will not protect you vs poison or slash procs).

 

As for the rant. Well you use caps lock in the way like shouting, putting emphasis on singel words, calling DE employees "not competent", "to biased"(trust me that is never the case in any online game, since players are far more attached to it then somebody that has to work on it every day), "CANNOT do it right" and demand at the same time changes that in your opinion would benifit the game. That is from my experience not a good start into a real discussion.

 

Your main point is that the buffs on volt prime are higher then on other primed warframes, however without going into detail where this would be a problem in pvp, pve or compared to other warframes. The second idea is a compleete buff removal of primed warframes or changeing them into a system where players can chose the what stat they would have higher, again without picking and sticking to one side(what is very important in a discussion if you want to make a point) or even going into detail how that later system should work(that is actually something, sombody would have to spend like 200 manhours on, because 50 energy, 0.2 speed and 50 armor are not the same and work out very different on different warframes).

 

Well I seen min maxing in a lot of games, I even had to enforce this myself running competitive communitys for high level PVE in other MMO games. Giving it in the hand of players don't give you that much more choice, that only would be true if every thing would be 100% ballanced, what is impossible for something as complex as online games.

Edited March 25, 2015 by Djego27

[Grievous10]

It is pretty sad to see frames like Rhino become less and less useful. He has the same stats as Volt except that he only has 90 more armor.

I am fine with Volt Prime's additional stats but other Primes should have such powerful stats too. Their stats should actually have an use for their playstyle. Nyx is a caster frame, she doesn't need armor. Why does Rhino Prime have more movement speed? He's about tanking he should have more shield/armor and health.

 

We should just keep on pressuring DE with these topics. They have to realize that we are not okay with the Prime's stats especially that Frost & Mag Prime are STILL outdated.

[GuyTheBloody]

They should just bring back stat trees with prime frames having an alternate tree. That would make primed frames different, but not necessarily better than their non-primed counterparts.

[StonedMakak]

Three words: Lack of consistency.

 

+1 to OP. Either Primes are just bling-bling, swag vanity pieces or they are straight upgrades to basic frames. Make up your mind, for Lotus's sake.

 

Also: If they are straight upgrades I demand the option to equip a skin for vanilla look. Free of charge.  

[Marthrym]

Well as for the magnitude, it really depends if you look at it from the perspective of symmetric or asymmetric game ballanceing. Given that in Warframe most stuff is asymmetricly ballanced, lets go with that. Nyx is mostly ballanced around not getting hit at all, as most strong CC frames. Volt on the other hand can be played very fast, agressive and at close range if you chose to do so, where the high armor makes sense. It also helps to give you the choice between redirection and vitality, on a frame with a very high shield value(that however will not protect you vs poison or slash procs).

 

As for the rant. Well you use caps lock in the way like shouting, putting emphasis on singel words, calling DE employees "not competent", "to biased"(trust me that is never the case in any online game, since players are far more attached to it then somebody that has to work on it every day), "CANNOT do it right" and demand at the same time changes that in your opinion would benifit the game. That is from my experience not a good start into a real discussion.

 

Your main point is that the buffs on volt prime are higher then on other primed warframes, however without going into detail where this would be a problem in pvp, pve or compared to other warframes. The second idea is a compleete buff removal of primed warframes or changeing them into a system where players can chose the what stat they would have higher, again without picking and sticking to one side(what is very important in a discussion if you want to make a point) or even going into detail how that later system should work(that is actually something, sombody would have to spend like 200 manhours on, because 50 energy, 0.2 speed and 50 armor are not the same and work out very different on different warframes).

 

Well I seen min maxing in a lot of games, I even had to enforce this myself running competitive communitys for high level PVE in other MMO games. Giving it in the hand of players don't give you that much more choice, that only would be true if every thing would be 100% ballanced, what is impossible for something as complex as online games.

That's the point. WHY give Nyx Prime an ARMOR bonus? Let's put aside the strength of each bonus given to each Primed frame for a moment. How many of them are "logical" on a gameplay standpoint? Some have argued that these "soften" their weaknesses. But since their kit, and "personalities" give them a certain "style" more than another, while still making them quite similar because of their loadouts and general stats, unlike MMOs for instance, where lines and roles are much more clearly defined, WHY such nonsensical choices? Why armor on Nyx?

As for Volt, let's just say I know people who would disagree with the "more aggressive" playstyle. Or rather, he has tools that allow him to mitigate or avoid a great deal of attacks, without requiring hard CC. that and "aggressive" playstyle's definition varies wildly from one individual to another.

 

I use caps lock to emphasize words that are particularly important, not too "shout". This has become a too common misconception, people thinking caps lock de facto mean "angry shouting/ranting". But I apologize if that's the impression my post gave you, it wasn't my intention. And I said DE showed they lacked the competence to treat Primed frames fairly. I never said they were incompetent, you came up with that one on your own. But once again, apologies if my post gave you that impression. It's not the devs' general "competence" that I question. It's their ability to give each frame bonus stats in a logical, fair and equal measure.

Asymmetrical balance in video games does not warrant asymmetrical/imbalanced/inequitable bonus stats. Asymmetrical balance is a mold, it gives specific roles, attributes and playstyles. It doesn't make them unequal. It just makes sure they are all equally viable and appealing choices, while giving them each their own identity. The bonus stats of some Primes clearly show that even this system isn't considered in the majority of choices made. Balance is a problem in PvE just as much as it is in PvP. Especially in mostly PvE oriented game. And here, it's all but respected.

The bonus stats themselves show it quite eloquently. "Caster" frames for instance, or to be more specific frames that rely heavily on their abilities to stay alive or simply be on par with the others (since damage based abilities are mostly irrelevant...). Why would one get a whooping 100 bonus energy points while others would get 25 nothing at all? How is this logical and equitable? Isn't it a tad too arbitrary and unfair? And keep in mind, I'm only talking about Primes, I know that some frames have a lower energy pool even though they can be quite easily considered to be part of this category.

Also, I didn't "demand" anything. I pleaded for freedom of choice. I never said "I demand this or that", I ASKED (emphasis on "asked" here) for fair and equal treatment. Nothing more. I have no illusions that the devs will change anything, but it's worth trying, it worked before. You again came up with the impression that I made demands. On your own... again.^^'

 

Warframe is no MMO. It just isn't. A "coop shooter", sure. But it lacks too many aspects of what "cannonically" makes a MMO a MMO. There aren't classes and "Primed" classes in MMOs, just different classes and roles. Warframe is FAR from that.

Obviously perfect balance is not a thing to ask for. "Perfect" balance would suck. Everyone knows that. Imperfect balance is what people want, because it's always evolving, it keeps thing fresh. But Warframe isn't even close to that, not by a long shot (that's not criticism towards DE this time, MANY games can't get close to it, it's a very delicate thing indeed, and I know they are actually trying). But that's beside the subject.

Edited March 25, 2015 by Marthrym

[Djego27]

As for Volt, let's just say I know people who would disagree with the "more aggressive" playstyle. Or rather, he has tools that allow him to mitigate or avoid a great deal of attacks, without requiring hard CC. that and "aggressive" playstyle's definition varies wildly from one individual to another.

 

I ended up always play volt a bit like my shotgun ember, the high speed and cheap CC work very well for this. This doesn't mean you can't also play him more like a point defence frame similar to frost while mostly utilizing volt shield, I seen quite a few useing the frame in this way very successful.

 

I use caps lock to emphasize words that are particularly important, not too "shout". This has become a too common misconception, people thinking caps lock de facto mean "angry shouting/ranting". But I apologize if that's the impression my post gave you, it wasn't my intention. And I said DE showed they lacked the competence to treat Primed frames fairly. I never said they were incompetent, you came up with that one on your own. But once again, apologies if my post gave you that impression. It's not the devs' general "competence" that I question. It's their ability to give each frame bonus stats in a logical, fair and equal measure.

 

Well it gives the impression of shouting and even if that is not your intention.

 

"Hell, let US choose. The PLAYERS. NOT you DE. Your arbitrary and quite nonsensical repartition of the bonus stats is more than enough of a proof that you are not competent or too biased to make that call for everyone."

 

This is from your opening post. I don't make things up, I just tried to point out that this might be not a good way to start a discussion.

 

Asymmetrical balance in video games does not warrant asymmetrical/imbalanced/inequitable bonus stats. Asymmetrical balance is a mold, it gives specific roles, attributes and playstyles. It doesn't make them unequal. It just makes sure they are all equally viable and appealing choices, while giving them each their own identity. The bonus stats of some Primes clearly show that even this system isn't considered in the majority of choices made. Balance is a problem in PvE just as much as it is in PvP. Especially in mostly PvE oriented game. And here, it's all but respected.

The bonus stats themselves show it quite eloquently. "Caster" frames for instance, or to be more specific frames that rely heavily on their abilities to stay alive or simply be on par with the others (since damage based abilities are mostly irrelevant...). Why would one get a whooping 100 bonus energy points while others would get 25 nothing at all? How is this logical and equitable? Isn't it a tad too arbitrary and unfair? And keep in mind, I'm only talking about Primes, I know that some frames have a lower energy pool even though they can be quite easily considered to be part of this category.

 

Asymetrical ballance means that things can be very different, overpowered even to fit the overall ballance. You go from a baseline up or downwards to archive a specific strenght or weakness. Often this is not even comparable by on paper numbers. As a example, in WoW the arms warrior was able to break CC multiple times while haveing a good tank and nuke stuff at melee range in seconds, being very mobile and haveing the absolute best multi target DPS in the game(by a huge margine, to a point where you could one hit multiple non glass cannons in pvp). However the class was between god mode and cannon fodder in pvp and pve depending on the current pvp and pve content. The reason for this is that the arms warrior can only keep up insane dps and speed for a couple of seconds before all that is on longer cooldowns, while lots of the CC stuff was on very short cooldowns what could render you more or less useless, since when you use CDs to pull off full dps, you just get CCed and your target moves out of melee range again. Many people complained about it, however the class was only effective if you did play it like playing poker, where you had to judge carfully how many CDs you use and what your target still has to available. While on paper it looks very overpowered, ingame it was more or less a hit and miss. More miss then everything else if you didn't have very good understanding pf the class you attack work with CDs and CC.

 

In my personal opinion Volt prime got more armor and energy to promote his use more. Nyx prime doesn't need that really, if you need a nyx you need a nyx and the 50 armor don't make a difference at high levels. It is more or less just ballancing something what is not used that much slightly above the rest to promote the use, at least in my opinion.

 

Also, I didn't "demand" anything. I pleaded for freedom of choice. I never said "I demand this or that", I ASKED (emphasis on "asked" here) for fair and equal treatment. Nothing more. I have no illusions that the devs will change anything, but it's worth trying, it worked before. You again came up with the impression that I made demands. On your own... again.^^'

 

"Let the players make the choices for you, because evidently you can't."

 

"So I'll say it once again : either let US choose, or remove the bonus stats thing entirely, because you showed time and again that you CANNOT do it right, in a FAIR and EQUAL measure for Primed frames. You just can't."

 

Well that sounds to me that you actually do.

 

Warframe is no MMO. It just isn't. A "coop shooter", sure. But it lacks too many aspects of what "cannonically" makes a MMO a MMO. There aren't classes and "Primed" classes in MMOs, just different classes and roles. Warframe is FAR from that.

Obviously perfect balance is not a thing to ask for. "Perfect" balance would suck. Everyone knows that. Imperfect balance is what people want, because it's always evolving, it keeps thing fresh. But Warframe isn't even close to that, not by a long shot (that's not criticism towards DE this time, MANY games can't get close to it, it's a very delicate thing indeed, and I know they are actually trying). But that's beside the subject.

 

Actually at high levels it is fairly close to a MMO. Shooting is not that important, proper use of warframes, modding and weapon selection however is. It also shares a lot of the grind, loot mechanics, rng walls and the requirement of proper coordination for high level content similar to MMOs.

 

Perfect ballance is actually a very good thing, however very hard to archive. Other then you I am not a big fan of "parrot and stick" game ballance(what means just switching the meta to keep it "fresh"), since I got my far share of that in other MMOs and it did murder tons of stuff that makes MMOs interesting for a veteran while producing a very predictable and booring enviroment. A good example could be the kohm, that now runs out of ammo 40 minutes into survial, has no unique mechancis anymore and is only interesting to people that don't have the event mods for the Hek and boar prime. The reason for this is that it still does 4-5 times the sustained dps of other shotguns, however that doesn't mean much since shotguns are not really a practical weapon outside of status shotguns at high levels.

Edited March 25, 2015 by Djego27

[Flowen231]

OP, I couldn't agreed more (and this goes for more than just the Prime stuff, just saying)

 

But it is very obvious WHY they do this: Money. It's that simple. "Oh, Volt Prime has the BEST stat boost so far?! Insta-buy!!!" So of course they will completely and utterly ignore you (no matter how right you are), because it is making them rich.

They care about the game, at least somewhat. But earning money, no matter the imbalance it creates in the game, comes first, sadly.

I doubt thats the main reason, but volt was released with a crapwing so I wouldn't put it past them.

[Ishteen]

The same thing I've already said before: Because its going to take forever to legitimately obtain all the parts in the void. If Loki Prime is any indication on how difficult it is to obtain new prime parts, I can barely imagine how hard Volt Prime is gonna be to get.

And this is not even taking into consideration about what happens to the void, since DE has stated they're gonna integrate it somehow into the solar system. At least thats what I gathered from their devstream in pax east.

 

"Forever to legitimately obtain all the parts"? The very nature of RNG indicates that it's going to be completely random - some will pick up Volt in a couple runs, others may need to grind months (and we've all been there, I'm sure). I hate to rely on this old argument, but you shouldn't base the power of a particular Prime based on your sole experience in trying to farm for it. In this case, blame the skewed drop rates and oversaturation of the Void, which DE supposedly plans to address by "blowing up" the Void.

 

It still does not excuse Volt for having such massive bonuses over his vanilla counterpart, or indeed such massive bonuses over other Prime warframes.

[(XBOX)LilHypezKiid]

Is it just me, or are primes getting a bit of power creep

[SquirmyBurrito]

The energy pool size is qulity of life and I wouldn't call shield stacking unnessesary at high levels. 15 armor is like nothing, with 100 armor you have the choice to take vitality over redirection on volt prime, what is a good thing, since it gives the frame flexiblity and a much better preformance when slash procs and toxin make shield nearly useless.

 

Min maxing is a thing, not a theorie but my experince from years of doing HC raiding or other types of high level PVE, whenever you give people a choice and have sufficent enught difficult content where that choice actually matters, it ends up to remove the choice and use what works best.

 

Marthrym said it best.

 

It was done to remove the squishy feel that volt user were complaining about in a few topics. If you have 100 armor it makes using life-strike builds viable; it does not, however, move you into the range that you are able to ever remotely face tank or not get gang mauled by infested. 

 

Yes, going from basically no armor to having decent armor is a big jump. It's going to let him be a melee Warframe, I want DE to consider buffing Excalibur Prime and others in a similar way.

 

So many old primes need a second look, their bonus was a polarity and that is next to worthless with how forma is both easy to get and exist. When Excalibur Prime first came out there was no forma, so his 'v' was a big deal, now it's pointless.

 

Any volt user that called volt squishy needs to get their head checked. Volt is tied for first in highest shield capacity and has a decent 300 health, he also has one of the strongest shields in the game (electric shield being duration based where most other shields have health). The only difference (as far as stats go) between Rhino Prime and Volt Prime is Rhino's 90 extra armor, and Volt's 100 extra energy, imo that is ridiculous. I fail to see why Volt should be able to life-strike tank. He doesn't need to face tank infested, he can shock stun lock them (even more so than his non-prime variant given his massive energy pool). Nyx Prime got 35 extra armor, Ember Prime got 25 extra armor, Volt gets 85 extra armor. Loki Prime and Nova Prime got 25 extra energy, Volt got 100 extra energy. This is just ridiculous. 

 

I wouldn't mind the massive buff to his armor, if that had been the only stat buff he had received (or if he had gotten a tiny secondary buff), but that isn't the case. Both his buffs were massive, not just compared to his non-prime's stats, but compared to other primes.

 

I agree, but it puts a bad taste in my mouth when DE simultaneously ignored the pre-existing Prime imbalance (frost, ember, and excal compared to all other primes) and release an even more startlingly unbalanced prime. Its felt like they were giving the other primes the finger. This is just ridiculous.

Edited March 26, 2015 by SquirmyBurrito

[-SLX-J3tAc3]

 

 

...That's the point. WHY give Nyx Prime an ARMOR bonus? Let's put aside the strength of each bonus given to each Primed frame for a moment. How many of them are "logical" on a gameplay standpoint? Some have argued that these "soften" their weaknesses. But since their kit, and "personalities" give them a certain "style" more than another, while still making them quite similar because of their loadouts and general stats, unlike MMOs for instance, where lines and roles are much more clearly defined, WHY such nonsensical choices? Why armor on Nyx?.....

This is quite interesting here and can be a good discussion. What, exactly, should a Prime version do? Should It have stats that strengthen the non-Prime frame's weaknesses, or should it be an augmentation of the frame's particular style? A mix of both?

Edited March 26, 2015 by -SLX-J3tAc3

[(PSN)Silverback73]

Volt needed improvements. It was refreshing to see DE make such bold decisions to make Volt Prime viable. I would trade for a base speed boost, though ;).

[(PSN)kjcenco]

I believe primes should get stat upgrades compared to their standard counterparts, but they should be relevant to what the frame really needs. All primes should have the same amount of upgrades to make it fair, whether that be one or two upgrades i don't really mind. At the moment we have primes that have no stat upgrades, some that have only one and some that have two. It seems like the newest primes have really been getting a lot of attention while the old ones have been left out and are basically nothing but a cosmetic change.  

 

It would be nice to see Frost prime receive an upgrade whether that be a base speed buff from 0.9 to 1.0 or an armour buff from his current 190 to 300 - 400 which he should have anyway since his running speed is so slow and this would not only benefit Frost prime but also his team via the snow globe receiving a buff to its health.  

[FitzSimmons]

So Volt Prime was just released. Yay.

With TWO HUGE bonus stats, especially compared to the first Primed frames which are STILL WAITING after more than a FULL YEAR since the "bonus stat" trend started.

 

I know I'm probably taking a risk here with the mods, and I ask for forgiveness if this post is out of bounds and breaks the forums rules, but it has to be said loud and clear : Primes have to be treated with FAIRNESS and EQUITY. This BULLSH!T has gone on for too long.

 

So I'm making this thread in the hope that the devs see it, and WAKE THE HELL UP.

 

With every new Prime released, the bonus stats trend is getting more and more out of hand. This has to stop. NOW. And every Primed frame must have the SAME, EQUAL number and amount of stats. Hell, let US choose. The PLAYERS. NOT you DE. Your arbitrary and quite nonsensical repartition of the bonus stats is more than enough of a proof that you are not competent or too biased to make that call for everyone. Let the players make the choices for you, because evidently you can't. Remove all stats, and give each Prime one (or two if you really want to) bonus "chips" that the PLAYERS can put on the stat THEY want. NOT you.

 

So I'll say it once again : either let US choose, or remove the bonus stats thing entirely, because you showed time and again that you CANNOT do it right, in a FAIR and EQUAL measure for Primed frames. You just can't.

 

I apologise again if this post appears too aggressive, I'm pretty sure it will, at least to some, but this issue really has to be taken care of now, and not in a year or two, and I cannot, I will not, stand idly by and just "shut up" and take it, however hard it might be to see in this post, I have far too much respect for you and your work DE to not be honest and blunt, even to a fault, and even if I get the stick for being frank.

if i can choose what stat i can improve on prime, i will definitely make my volt prime has 600 armor like valkyr. did you forget that DE buff ember prime stat? she got buffed, you just have to wait for others, almost 2 years im waiting for overload change, but they still not change or buff overload even after volt prime and i believe overload change will do more than just stat buff because to be honest either there is or isnt stat buff on volt prime it doesnt really matter. volt prime access price are equal to all prime access, but you know what? this prime access only have volt prime and odonata prime, no wepaons, just think those two bonus as replacer for things they should have offer in prime access. 

Edited March 26, 2015 by FitzSimmons

[Marthrym]

I ended up always play volt a bit like my shotgun ember, the high speed and cheap CC work very well for this. This doesn't mean you can't also play him more like a point defence frame similar to frost while mostly utilizing volt shield, I seen quite a few useing the frame in this way very successful.

 

That's the point. He already has much more survivability than most people think. He's not just a fast, squishy frame, he can lock up and secure corridors like no other for instance. So how are his bonus stats warranted?

 

 

Well it gives the impression of shouting and even if that is not your intention.

 

"Hell, let US choose. The PLAYERS. NOT you DE. Your arbitrary and quite nonsensical repartition of the bonus stats is more than enough of a proof that you are not competent or too biased to make that call for everyone."

 

This is from your opening post. I don't make things up, I just tried to point out that this might be not a good way to start a discussion.

 

Like I said, I question DE's capacity to make a fair and impartial decision on this precise situation here :

 

"Hell, let US choose. The PLAYERS. NOT you DE. Your arbitrary and quite nonsensical repartition of the bonus stats is more than enough of a proof that you are not competent or too biased to make that call for everyone."

 

See? Two can play the "bold" game. And I also said that I was going to be blunt. Mission accomplished as far as I'm concerned.

 

I'll put words in bold instead of caps if you find it that misleading, I really don't mind. It's just a bit faster to use caps lock, that's all.

 

 

 

 

Asymetrical ballance means that things can be very different, overpowered even to fit the overall ballance. You go from a baseline up or downwards to archive a specific strenght or weakness. Often this is not even comparable by on paper numbers. As a example, in WoW the arms warrior was able to break CC multiple times while haveing a good tank and nuke stuff at melee range in seconds, being very mobile and haveing the absolute best multi target DPS in the game(by a huge margine, to a point where you could one hit multiple non glass cannons in pvp). However the class was between god mode and cannon fodder in pvp and pve depending on the current pvp and pve content. The reason for this is that the arms warrior can only keep up insane dps and speed for a couple of seconds before all that is on longer cooldowns, while lots of the CC stuff was on very short cooldowns what could render you more or less useless, since when you use CDs to pull off full dps, you just get CCed and your target moves out of melee range again. Many people complained about it, however the class was only effective if you did play it like playing poker, where you had to judge carfully how many CDs you use and what your target still has to available. While on paper it looks very overpowered, ingame it was more or less a hit and miss. More miss then everything else if you didn't have very good understanding pf the class you attack work with CDs and CC.

 

In my personal opinion Volt prime got more armor and energy to promote his use more. Nyx prime doesn't need that really, if you need a nyx you need a nyx and the 50 armor don't make a difference at high levels. It is more or less just ballancing something what is not used that much slightly above the rest to promote the use, at least in my opinion.

 

 

Asymmetrical balance means that things are indeed different, while retaining their overall balance to each others. There are very interesting books about asymmetrical balance in video games. None of them define asymmetrical balance the way you did. They define it as a way to introduce more variety in terms of objectives, gameplay options, and more disparity between said options. But the balance remains paramount. None of these options are better (at least they're not supposed to) when it comes to achieving the ultimate goal, they're just different, take different paths, have different effects. Some will appeal more to some, others won't, etc. But they are all equally viable, or at least try to be as much as possible. Each of the classes in MMOs have strengths and weaknesses. No single class is the best because if we assign values to them like speed, resilience and damage output, they usually have the same value overall. Class 1 will be great in aspects A and B, but will be bad in aspect C, while class 2 will be good in aspects A and C, but bad in B. I know it's an extremely dumbed down example, but it doesn't make it any less true.

 

Warframe is very far from what an MMO is. Classes in MMOs have very defined roles, abilities, strengths and weaknesses. Taking WoW as an example, a shaman specialized in restoration will never come close to the damage output of a rogue or a hunter of any specialization for instance. Not because it is underpowered or the other classes overpowered, but simply because it's not its role. On the other hand, that shaman will be orders of magnitude superior when it comes to healing (little on the nose I know). But WoW is not the best example IMHO, because of the specializations.

 

In Warframe, this aspect is mostly absent. Any frame can take any loadout and bring considerable damage output to the table. Any frame can heal themselves quite efficiently (though rarely others it's true), or attain a good degree of survivability (up to the point where scaling goes bonkers obviously), either because of their general stats, or because their kit provides them with the necessary tools to get a similar result.

 

Frames that people refer to as "DPS" simply don't exist. Their kits are ineffective and inefficient bar very few exceptions, and any frame with a "good" weapon becomes a "DPS". Trinity is not a healer like a priest is a healer. Rhino is not a tank like a warrior is a tank. Ember is not a "DPS" like a rogue is a "DPS". Not just because they don't have the abilities to do so like in MMOs, but because the entire game is very different from a traditional MMO. There are no "dungeons" in Warframe. The new "trial" has only the boss part in common with a traditional raid in an MMO, and even that boss has nothing to do with a traditional MMO boss. Honestly Warframe is more a Beat'em up than it is an MMO. More Dynasty Warriors than WoW. At least for me. And I don't mind really.

 

The way bonus stats are attributed to Primed frames is completely nonsensical, and most importantly, unfair. Because it doesn't respect any form of balance, whethet it is symetrical or asymmetrical. It just feels arbitrary to me. Or random. I mean come on, you'd get the same kind of result by randomly tying a stat and a frame to each face of two dice, and putting together the numbers they give after you throw them. So many agree that Volt Prime got so much more than any other Prime, while other Primes still don't have anything, or nothing close.

 

The simple fact that you need to give much higher bonus stats to a frame to make it more appealing is proof that this frame has a problem in the first place. As for promoting frame use... Nyx and volt are tied in last place for the least used frames along with ember and Mag. Even Banshee is more used than them. I know, it's crazy!

 

 

"Let the players make the choices for you, because evidently you can't."

 

"So I'll say it once again : either let US choose, or remove the bonus stats thing entirely, because you showed time and again that you CANNOT do it right, in a FAIR and EQUAL measure for Primed frames. You just can't."

 

Well that sounds to me that you actually do.

 

That's nice. Taking an isolated part of my first post. While conveniently "forgetting" the part just after. Part where I clearly state I am aware of the tone of said post and even apologize for my "bluntness". How very "political" of you. *slow clap*

Not to mention it didn't seem to be a "demand" for others that read it. I guess it's all subjective.

 

Actually at high levels it is fairly close to a MMO. Shooting is not that important, proper use of warframes, modding and weapon selection however is. It also shares a lot of the grind, loot mechanics, rng walls and the requirement of proper coordination for high level content similar to MMOs.

 

Perfect ballance is actually a very good thing, however very hard to archive. Other then you I am not a big fan of "parrot and stick" game ballance(what means just switching the meta to keep it "fresh"), since I got my far share of that in other MMOs and it did murder tons of stuff that makes MMOs interesting for a veteran while producing a very predictable and booring enviroment. A good example could be the kohm, that now runs out of ammo 40 minutes into survial, has no unique mechancis anymore and is only interesting to people that don't have the event mods for the Hek and boar prime. The reason for this is that it still does 4-5 times the sustained dps of other shotguns, however that doesn't mean much since shotguns are not really a practical weapon outside of status shotguns at high levels.

Hum... Agree to disagree I guess...

 

In MMOs, "high level" dungeons/raids don't usually throw throngs of OHK enemies that you cannot effectively taunt to focus your tank(s) who is/are resilient enough to not get OHK, supported by your healers, while all your DPS is focused on specific targets, often in a predefined order, until they go down. There are small (at least compared to Warframe) groups of enemies, often patroling specific areas, that you can often engage one by one and kite them to a position you are comfortable with. These enemies have clear roles, clear aptitudes, strong points and weaknesses. Rotations and/or discernable patterns in their attacks/movements. They do have OHK attacks, but usually they have obvious tells, are avoidable by simply moving, or the tanks/DPS/even healers have interrupts that they can rotate in such a way that none of the OHK attacks will ever hit your tank(s), and even if they do there's usually at least an off-tank in the group as a safety net. That or the gorup wipes, sometimes on purpose, and the progress you made before is also usually "saved" and you don't have to do the entire killing once more until you get back to the point you were. Usually. It's true that there are groups that tend to respawn. But never like in Warframe.

 

In Warframe, "high level" means the game throws hundreds of enemies at you, all of them more or less rapidly with OHK potential (we usually OHK them too yes, but we're "slightly" outnumbered in most cases), Godly reflexes and very inconsistant accuracy (at high levels at least), no tank to tank, no healer to heal (even Trinity has a hard time healing OHK attacks), no "avoidable" OHK unless hiding behind hard cover or hard CC/damage mitigation abilities to save the day (and they really don't require a teamspeak and a lot of coordination). Each game ultimately turning into a "press X key to neutralize enemy before enemy mops the floor with you". Granted in MMOs this can happen, but in a much less systematic fashion. At least for the MMOs I know, I don't know each and everyone of them.

Now, this doesn't mean I don't "like" it. I don't think it's supposed to be like in a traditional MMO after all. And I'm perfectly happy with that. What I am not happy with is the way the endless scaling goes crosseyed at some point. Luckily before it does there is a sweet spot that actually makes things fun and interesting. I just wish getting to that sweet spot was faster and it lasted longer... But that's just my opinion, so it's really not something I think I can use as a valid point. Which sucks for me...

 

EDIT : I think we completely drifted away from the subject... Or at least we widened it a tad too much.^^'

Edited March 26, 2015 by Marthrym

[Fluttershy93]

Considering they did say primes were not supposed to be that much better then the original frames i beg to differ. Hard to look past the 200 base energy and high armor Volt P has compared to the normal and other frames. Not only does he have higher armor, but the highest energy in the whole game. Sitting at a steady 850 energy with max Primed Flow kind of goes against the''they're not supposed to have a huge stat wise advantage'', Nova and Loki are fine considering they are pure casters. Meaning rather low shield,health and armor base but fast movement. 

[AlphaHorseman]

I actually like that the Primes are being buffed above their more common counterparts, I mean with the Lore and all.

 

Plus it gives us a better goal to work towards. If they were just cosmetic...I don't think many would fight in the highest tier of content for a reskin of something they already have.

 

I do agree that the primes should be treated equally, but my thoughts on it is that they should all have stat boosts and more ornate Orokin looks than their counterparts. I don't feel as though they should just be reskins of their common counterparts, not for the trouble of farming them that many of us go through, battling RNG and all that.

[shad0wed1]

I just like to see my Excalibur Prime get some kind of reasonable stat increase if this is the way DE is going to treat all Prime Frames. 

[StonedMakak]

 

Plus it gives us a better goal to work towards. If they were just cosmetic...I don't think many would fight in the highest tier of content for a reskin of something they already have.

 

You underestimate the power of the Dark Si... I mean gamer OCD.

[AlphaHorseman]

You underestimate the power of the Dark Si... I mean gamer OCD.

Yeah, but are we just going to rely on those who want primarily cosmetic items? If that's the case then it's gonna be pretty tough trying to continue the game and justifying to players why some things are better than others, but some things aren't. (I.e. Prime weapons being stronger variants, but Prime Warframes are not.)

 

Not to mention it helps to shore up some of the lacks or help along the strengths of each frame. Rhino getting his speed buff, Loki and Volt some extra energy. Added stats like those are helpful, I just wish all Prime frames had them to make it even across the board.

[SquirmyBurrito]

if i can choose what stat i can improve on prime, i will definitely make my volt prime has 600 armor like valkyr. did you forget that DE buff ember prime stat? she got buffed, you just have to wait for others, almost 2 years im waiting for overload change, but they still not change or buff overload even after volt prime and i believe overload change will do more than just stat buff because to be honest either there is or isnt stat buff on volt prime it doesnt really matter. volt prime access price are equal to all prime access, but you know what? this prime access only have volt prime and odonata prime, no wepaons, just think those two bonus as replacer for things they should have offer in prime access. 

 

DE could always just limit how much you're allowed to buff something by, thus eliminating this possibility. Ember Prime's rmor buff was minuscule compared to Volt Prime's.

[--Q--uaint]

Frames that people refer to as "DPS" simply don't exist. Their kits are ineffective and inefficient bar very few exceptions, and any frame with a "good" weapon becomes a "DPS". 

 

You obviously haven't met Mirage.