Whats With Camping Becoming The 'default' Way To Play Survival?

[Moghul]

Because putting effort into not getting what you need is a drag.

 

Also because people are pretty bad. T1S 20m is too much for some people.

 

I roam AND camp. Roam with my Excal/Loki/Chroma/Trin, Camp with 1/6 usable camp frames.

[ThePresident777]

Greedy Pull feeds the Drinking Bird.

[ThePresident777]

Did 2 T3S today.  The spawn rate slows to a crawl if players are not in the same room.  That's why people are camping void survival.  That's why void survival sucks now. 

 

The spawn rates are good on Cambria, which is excavation.  But, there is no excavation in the void.  So, void endless missions have gone full camper.  Boring.

[jennibear]

they should make the map kind of like the Conker's bad fur day multiplayer, where you have to run to a room before the entire map gets gassed. or something along the lines of that, so people can't just stand in one place all day.

[Odik]

they should make the map kind of like the Conker's bad fur day multiplayer, where you have to run to a room before the entire map gets gassed. or something along the lines of that, so people can't just stand in one place all day.

Good idea to limit survivals at 40 minuts with forma bp every 20 min , you dont wok on DE?

[ShortCat]

The problem is: 90% of pub-hosts are looking for camp strats.

 

I did it once just to see how it feels, so I played Gmag. The most boring 40min of my life. The sad thing is: all the party memebers were above mr12 and decided to extract at 40mins.

 

The next survival run was "run & gun" with players under mr10. The most fun 1h survival I did after hte Volt-update.

 

At this point I almost wish LoS on all abilities in the game.

[Odik]

The problem is: 90% of pub-hosts are looking for camp strats.

 

I did it once just to see how it feels, so I played Gmag. The most boring 40min of my life. The sad thing is: all the party memebers were above mr12 and decided to extract at 40mins.

 

The next survival run was "run & gun" with players under mr10. The most fun 1h survival I did after hte Volt-update.

 

At this point I almost wish LoS on all abilities in the game.

All games in this way was teribad because everyone run where they like and its usualy end on 20-30 minut because we ran out of life support (even with nekros)

I agee its BORING to stand in corner and  use SOMETIMES (pull,descerate,vortex and almost always mprime) and just shoot in them.Im usuall chatting with them while reload my guns :D . Also nobody noticed about antimatter drop playing as client its not work always properly , unload brakk clip(soma and others guns too) in this result 150 damage ?

Edit : BTW people leaving on 40 minut because they are bored but players who really want volt stay 60+ min(also if they dont lvl stuff like people usually do and brought real weapons with 4 CPs)

 

 

About Los : i dont care about loss at all since i like melee but ...in this game melee suck so much and this ''combo'' cant deal with it ..only if this would save till mission end but hell no its fade right after you turning camera on another enemy.

Edited April 4, 2015 by Odik

[FrameUnity]

I've been to one camping survival and to be honest that was the most boring 30 mins in my entire warframe gaming life lol... To make matters worse, I got scolded and accused of being selfish when I went out of the camping sewer -_-u

 

Btw, note to self, be wary of joining recruit ad that look for mag, nekro and vauban...

[foxxess]

Whenever I recruit for a survival and say "stay in the same room, preferably the one with life support capsules, just kill stuff all in the same room", most players seem to automatically assume I want to play a camping game: Nekros, Mag w/Greedy Pull, probably Nova spamming 4, the works. When it transpires that's not the plan, people seem to have a hard time coping. I've actually had people leave the game because of it.

 

The way I see it, the host, i.e. the person who is supplying the key, dictates the tactics for the mission. If you don't like it, don't join the game and start trying to bend it to how you think it should be done.

 

Survivals run fine without this camping method. LS drops are better than they were. They can be solo'd 40+ mins without the "Homer's drinking bird" method and a Desecrate spammer.

Solo is so much easier than playing in a team, this is not an argument.

A team without a mastermind or a similar of thinking will result a split.

Enemy spawns getting split into 4, result much less drops, much more team corpses and stress.

 

In solo missions you can use Limbo or even Loki with stealth. Either you can't be killed or noone will ever notice you (with irradiating disarm they will just kill themselves). Solo means spawns won't get splitted into 4 different rooms scattered across the whole map.

 

And if you say that "the person who is supplying the key, dictates the tactics for the mission", I as a joiner of this mission have a right to leave, because I think your tactics is BS.

So you've "actually had people leave the game because of it" you shouldn't complain, when "it transpires that's not the plan", it's because it lacked in communication in the lobby. Guess whose fault?

[wtrmlnjuc]

Perfect example, It's such a shame though that you didn't use a controlled group for this experimental claim. It's been proven that camping allows you to survive longer.

Now he's my super accurate test, as you just did.

I played a camping group, we went to 55minutes without needing to activate air (1-2 times near the start we had to)

The next day, I played running around in multiple survivals. In 6/8 of them, NOBODY went to get Air and I was forced to rush back and got downed before I could get within X range to activate air.

In those 6 survivals, the shortest time was 27 minutes and the longest was 39 minutes. So while everybody was running around like a lunatic, NOBODY stopped to refill air not even once. And in 2 instances, "Elite God, No need camping, MLG PRO 360XxxXxxxSniperino master's" actually insisted we not use a Support Capsle despite sitting on 8 (the current max) and with air at 14%. (i used it anyways)

How about you take your 1 bad camping round back home. Always somebody going to complain when a new Strategy comes out.

"Boo hoo, they aren't being hardcore like us and just want to survive and not MLG 100k Damage Spray like me"

What I'm saying in my original post is that camping isn't objectively better than running around and staying together. With a proper group who activates, its quite easy to move around and go past an hour or so.

(no offense, but do you know what "objectively" means?)

[Dunkingmachine]

I'll never understand the common pub survival campers, it's not like you farm anything more efficient as you would be in the old e-gate farm eg. You don't get what you want faster (prime parts), but you get them doing something boring to the max. Survival has always been my favourite mode, only me and the enemies, nothing fragile i have to protect. Life support is rarely an issue, so it's just kill or be killed with enemies getting stronger and stronger. I love finding out new ways to go further and further, seeing how long i can last. For me, this is fun. Camping destroys that completely, while giving you no real advantage for like the first hour. It starts becoming the safer methods when Nullifier can oneshot players at 50-60 min, but the thing is most of these camp runs don't even last that long - 40-60 minutes, which even in t4 survival is a time a somewhat decent squad should be able to pull of easily while playing normal. And if playing normally isn't fun for you anymore and you just play to fulfill your need to chew through new prime gear, well you should probably stop and take a break.

Edited April 4, 2015 by Dunkingmachine

[ThePresident777]

It is true that camping has been end-game player meta for ages now.  But, it's not Space Ninja and it was not originally the only or dominant meta. 

 

Defense was introduced into the game at around March 2013, IIRC, and DE happily remarked that it was popular.  I guess MD was in the game before that.  But the rest of the missions, the majority, were mobility based. 

 

Mobility is Space Ninja.  It's questionable whether camping should be in a Space Ninja game at all, but taking steps to make camping the dominant meta, sacrificing Space Ninja for it, instead of making camping a discrete option and fully developing Space Ninja, is hardly sensible.

 

When survival first came out (08/30/2013), it was an event that took place in the small corpus defense/interception map.  The spawn rate was amazing, and, so was the enemy level.  Because of those two factors, it didn't feel like camping, although, some might view it as such because of the small map.  Those two factors made it necessary to remain highly mobile to survive the event.

 

The next step in survival's evolution was to place it on larger maps and different level ranges, while maintaining the elevated spawn rates.  DE remarked with disappointment in one of the 4th quarter 2013 Devstreams that it was a popular mission. 

 

Why sabotage a popular mobility based mission, instead of developing it further, when Warframe already has plenty of camping variations and pod sitting, which hardly make sense in a Space Ninja game?  If one wants to camp, there is Defense for the ultimate in camping.  If one wants some more movement, there is MD and Interception.  If one wants even more movement, there is Excavation.  Which is ironically the most Space Ninja of the endless missions, even though it's a bottle feeding pod mission.  But, there is no void Excavation.

 

For variety, fun, and Space Ninja, Survival needs it's own angle to be a mobility based mission.  Since oxygen is a central part of survival, I suggest developing it further.  Have the enemy try to lock the Tenno in a room, cut off oxygen, and flush the oxygen out of the room.  Then, the Tenno will be motivated to get the F*** out of the room.  As more rooms are vacated the Tenno will have to restore oxygen before they run out of habitable space.

 

Also, fire consumes Oxygen.  Big fire consumes a lot of oxygen.  But, nothing more specific comes to mind about that right now.

Edited April 4, 2015 by ThePresident777

[Aesthetic_Dialectic]

My experience camping is that I always ply the Vauban. This is of coupe my personal choice. We run into a mission and find that huge cathedral like room with a river running down it's middle and slopes downward with 3 or 4 level. We hide in one of the pools off the the side and I throw a vortex or two at the wall facing the upper level door. A loki casts disarm, Nekros casts desecrate and then we have a fourth who plays whatever they feel like. Sometimes a speed Nova, but I found speed Nova makes this too dangerous. From my experience I do not have to spam 4, I just press four one or two times every 25 seconds about. I mostly shoot, pop nullifier bubbles and keep my team from dead. All of use get to shoot relatively often, the nekros doesn't even have to some 3 and we all chat during this and it's a pretty good time. We don't have to pop LS and if we do it's in the room we are already in. Complaining about this play style is really just saying, "PLAY HOW I TELL YOU TO. CAMPING IS BAD ALL THE TIME. MY WAY ONLY." not saying campers don't do this either, but you should really stop giving a F***. When you go to recruit say you aren't camping.

[achromos]

 "PLAY HOW I TELL YOU TO. CAMPING IS BAD ALL THE TIME. MY WAY ONLY." not saying campers don't do this either, but you should really stop giving a F***. When you go to recruit say you aren't camping.

 

As you said, some Campers DO tell you to play it their way at least in my experience... and when a camper gets in a group that doesn't want to camp?  They Insult you for your playstyle, ignore you and leave effectively trying to hamstring a group just because he assumed from the get-go that we all were interested in camping.

 

This isn't US non campers telling campers to PLAY IT MY WAY.  There is no 'my way or the high-way' except unless a '1337 pro-hax camper' threatens to hamstring a group unless we get down into the 'designated camping spots' like a few earlier missions I've had today...  But i digress.  Look, the issue is, and this will sound like im trying to beat a dead horse here...  For well over a year, this whole 'camping' meta didn't exist in the tower survivals, people could roam for well up to 40m maybe have a few duo groups running around as long as they didn't run off into the other side of the map and get downed it was fine.  People could bring just about whatever frames they wanted into Survival as long as there was a Nekros and actually have 'fun'

 

Yes, people still have fun in this game, testing out the durability or effectiveness of their builds.  While other people don't, while other people rather sit in a dark corner and spam 4 all the time, twitch every minute and let themselves go on autopilot... There are people who have fun with the game still [obviously from this whole thread] and people who don't play that way and find it annoying that the Viver, E-gate crowd is marching into the Void because their 'efficient' farming was ruined over there so now those "Efficient" people are joining any random T3, T4 survival and suddenly were the bad guys when they drag what could have been a 60m+ run WITHOUT camping while actually... you know... playing the game?  into a 40 minute 'maybe' 60 because they take their ball and go home because they join in groups and assume that it is the norm.  I've had that happen, many... many times.  Like I said too, some hosts actually just give in and basically let these people 'drag' the group into a corner and then lo and behold 9 times out of 10?  Life support runs out even if we are all in the same room and doing that "Efficient" way of farming.

Edited April 4, 2015 by achromos

[foxxess]

When I say in the lobby "we are camping", that means I don't care about your skill levels, even If you fail I will succeed. This is a playstyle that allows players with lower gear and experience to keep up with higher ranked/skilled players. I think that is a good thing!

 

While some Warframe abilites don't allow certain Warframes to move, like Banshee's Soundquake or Hydroid's Undertow, DE is still trying to nerf static strategies. While using those immobile Warframes why shouldn't you camp? This isn't a question of laziness, it is how the Warframes were designed. Movement is extremely difficult and dangerous and you gain NOT A SINGLE BONUS out of it. Infact some important skills are not usable and it's also harder to support a moving team with abilities like Frost's Freeze Force or Oberon's Hallowed Ground.

Support and Crowd Control are both very important factors when challenging the late game. To make this game more dynamic DE has to redesign all the static abilities instead of just taking away the loot when standing on the same place for a longer time.

 

But then again, aren't we space ninjas? Ninjas don't move unless they have to take action and it's really necessary in order not to get detected. Oh wait, it's a myth, they don't exist in the first place.

Edited April 4, 2015 by foxxess

[ThePresident777]

0)  The problem isn't camping good/bad, mobility bad/good.  The problem is the separation between the two, and their quality.  Both play styles are mutually exclusive, so they should not mix because it breaks coop.  Warframe is a coop Space Ninja game.  So, there should be a way to play coop Space Ninja reliably.

 

Survival has been changed from a mission that allowed mobility game play to a camping game in a game already full of camping, when camping isn't the theme of the game.  None of this is advertised very well.  People go to survival expecting to play mobile, against massive hordes, because that's how they have always done it, only to find out that it's been nerfed into just another camping mission.

 

No one said where the mobility game play was hiding and it doesn't have a void key.  As a reseult, players who want endless, mobility, massive horde type missions in the void are TSOL.  If players want to play mobile in the void they have to burn through non-endless keys and then they don't get the massive hordes they can get in late Survival.  But, massive hordes and mobility is what Survival used to offer us, in the void, and that was taken away from us, again.

 

As usual, DE makes something spectacular then kills it.

 

1)  DE nerfs static strategies only to introduce new ones, and nerf mobile ones.  It's churning the camping content, and getting rid of the mobile content.

Edited April 4, 2015 by ThePresident777

[jennibear]

Good idea to limit survivals at 40 minuts with forma bp every 20 min , you dont wok on DE?

if that's what would happen if people moved... then yes?

 

I don't understand what you're even asking me. I don't wok on DE?

[BlutAdler]

Beware. I made a thread about this before only to have people "defend" this degenerate way to play the mode with the following very weak excuses:

1. Something insulting to me.

2. A personal attack to me.

3. A personal attack on my level intelligence, playstyle and/or mastery rank.

Dense people will always find a way shortcuts/loopholes to the other way something should be played. Then they will blame it on the game developer.

Much like how people blame the governement for there being people who do do drugs and spend money on material things with their welfare check.

Im right there with you OP.

In b4 the flame and hate and irrelevant arguements completely missing my point.

[Xitharcane]

There's one huge problem with camping. With the incoming (possible) changes to radial abilities, it may not be as viable in the near future. And newer players are learning that camping is the most viable way to farm survivals. This promotes a mindset of mindless spamming, which prevents them from learning many interesting mechanics they could otherwise have had exposure to.

It's a lazy playstyle to promote and should not ever be considered the norm. I've seen so many newer and lower MR players say in OTHER game modes that they are dumb and everything should have a way to camp. Seriously? I hope you guys at least understand why camping is terrible.

Edited April 5, 2015 by Xitharcane

[ThePresident777]

People can camp with guns or melee too.  Camping is a mission scenario, not a player character thing.

 

The only thing nerfing the player character does is make the player choose a more effective loadout, to go back to doing the same thing, even at a lower level if they have to, or get pissed off and find fun somewhere else.

 

All RJ nerf did was make people have to cast RJ more often to get the old result.  Instead of reducing the activity, it requires more of it.  Instead of killing x enemy, you'll kill a quarter of that then repeat the action to kill the next quarter, etc.  You'll be doing the same exact thing, more often, except it'll be lame.   Or, players will use their gun instead, or use another Warframe, because RJ is a joke. 

 

But, either way, nerfing the player doesn't stop the player from playing the mission.  If it's a camping mission, campers will camp.  If it's not a camping mission, they'll play a camping mission instead.

 

The way to stop camping is with interesting mission mechnics, not nerfing players.   If one wants to stop camping, one just gets rid of the camp.  Keep the goal moving and so will the team.   No one camps Capture missions.  If Capture missions were endless, no one would camp them.  It would be impossible.

Edited April 5, 2015 by ThePresident777

[JalakBali]

Camping is easier for the sole reason that trying to keep a PUG in the same room is like herding cats. Cats with autism. Also hopped up on drugs,

 

Add this to the main problem that to..uh, survive... in Survival you have to rely on drops. Which means you need to kill as many as possible, as moving around would end up splitting the spawn points and it would take them time to get to you. It's a flawed design because camping is ensuring the maximized result for it. It's not even an exploit like exp grinding in Interception or Excavation since those are getting exp by exploiting the mission. Camping, where everyone is at one spot so to make it easier for Nekros to Desecrate, is the most efficient way to do Survival. If they wanted to change this, they'll need to change how Survival works. And you can only do so much to push the players until the game mode is so toxic no one would want to play it.

[AcquisCommunitaire]

Beware. I made a thread about this before only to have people "defend" this degenerate way to play the mode with the following very weak excuses:

1. Something insulting to me.

2. A personal attack to me.

3. A personal attack on my level intelligence, playstyle and/or mastery rank.

Dense people will always find a way shortcuts/loopholes to the other way something should be played. Then they will blame it on the game developer.

Much like how people blame the governement for there being people who do do drugs and spend money on material things with their welfare check.

Im right there with you OP.

In b4 the flame and hate and irrelevant arguements completely missing my point.

Well, allow me to defend this allegedly degenerate way of playing.

 

For the sake of convenience, the argument is as follow:

 

P1: DE provided a game called Warframe

P2: Warframe contains the survival game-mode

P3: The survival game mode rewards items randomly based on time

P4: People have limited time to use the game (I prefer the word "use" as it does not mean treating it as either work or play or anything in between)

P5: People want to obtain the rewards

P6: People want to spend the least effort for the most gain (efficiency)

P7: The gain is static and is not dependent on time or effort.

S: People want to obtain the rewards in Warframe which is available in survival with the least effort for the most gain over a set period of time.

 

Saying it is degenerate is neither adding to the argument nor does it support the position. It is a tautology of your conclusion; you are concluding what you used as a premise.

 

If apparently dense people always find shortcuts or loopholes to do things, then sadly the last few thousand years of human history has been a cycle of this. My industrial revolution example precisely deals with this. And please don't use a trite distinction as that it is work and not play, as I can very well regard working in a factory as "play":

 

"Camping or any efficient farming is just like the industrial revolution. You have thousands of workers who slaved away with handicraft, but are  then replaced by far more efficient machines. The workers probably absolutely hated the machines and would claim that it was of low quality, or that it does not follow tradition (in Warframe terms: the supposed "fun" or "normal play"). After an entire century later, Lo and behold, we have factories everywhere.

 

History shows efficiency succeeds. Economics shows efficiency succeeds. Deal with it."

 

And no many people here are not blaming DE. Indeed, if they are supporting the freedom to camp, they are very much in favour of the status quo.

 

Once again, "flame and hate and irrelevant arguements completely missing my point", is mere tautology. It is not irrelevant and does not fall under any of your 3 categories, unless, I assume, you wish to say that any view which differs in substance from yours is irrelevant and nonsensical.

Edited April 5, 2015 by AcquisCommunitaire

[ThePresident777]

Space Campers already had Defense so that they could P1, P2,....:S, as described above. 

 

Space Ninjas had survival so they could run around in, playing Space Ninja. 

 

Now the campers have 3 endless void missions to camp in.  Where do Space Ninjas play for free, endlessly, in the void, or the star chart?

[(XBOX)Lorewalker1022]

Camping is efficent and spawn points are less split. Period

[FrameUnity]

Some people like to camp spot while others like to roam around, this is inevitable and we can't tell people how to play the game as they have every right to play this game that suit their game style. The best way is to group up with like minded players.