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Psa: Autohotkey Ban Qualification


DE_Adam
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A - Autofire when holding down a button or something like that is fine.  Something simple and could be used to get around disabilities or the need to click 16 times a second which may be hard for some players.

 

B - Making a botting script to take multiple actions (like a sequence of events) without your input (espeically on repeat) is not fine.

 

Some players started making full-on botting scripts to automatically do repetitive farming for them (you all know the kind of thing I mean), got banned, and then told other players "using autohotkey at all gets you banned now".  This PSA is to state it's not true, Autohotkey is fine if used for situation A, as it's always been.  Situation B, on the other hand, is newer, and obviously not right (and most games will outright ban you for it so it should be no surprise).

 

"Well it's okay in some situations and not okay in others, that's confusing"?  You know, using a knife in some situations (chopping up a salad) is fine, but in other situations (stabbing somebody in the face) it's not.

 

Use some logic, morals, and common sense to tell the difference and you'll be fine.

 

Autofire = okay.

Botting/script = not okay.

 

 

nobody uses the scroll wheel for semi-auto?

 

use the scroll wheel for semi-auto.

Not all scroll wheels can spin freely.  I've seen some gaming mice that can toggle free-scroll mode, but none of the mice I've personally owned can do that (I don't specifically use gaming mice).

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A - Autofire when holding down a button or something like that is fine.  Something simple and could be used to get around disabilities or the need to click 16 times a second which may be hard for some players.

 

B - Making a botting script to take multiple actions (like a sequence of events) without your input (espeically on repeat) is not fine.

 

Some players started making full-on botting scripts to automatically do repetitive farming for them (you all know the kind of thing I mean), got banned, and then told other players "using autohotkey at all gets you banned now".  This PSA is to state it's not true, Autohotkey is fine if used for situation A, as it's always been.  Situation B, on the other hand, is newer, and obviously not right (and most games will outright ban you for it so it should be no surprise).

 

"Well it's okay in some situations and not okay in others, that's confusing"?  You know, using a knife in some situations (chopping up a salad) is fine, but in other situations (stabbing somebody in the face) it's not.

 

Use some logic, morals, and common sense to tell the difference and you'll be fine.

 

Autofire = okay.

Botting/script = not okay.

 

 

Not all scroll wheels can spin freely.  I've seen some gaming mice that can toggle free-scroll mode, but none of the mice I've personally owned can do that (I don't specifically use gaming mice).

 

Where's the line between botting and QoL? What if I want a script that allows me to more easily repeatedly spam desecrate as Nekros (whether that be holding down a key equates to repeated presses or a toggle)? Is that okay? Common sense really does not cover the sheer scope of possibilities with macros. rapid firing is just the simplistic tip of the iceberg. What about auto coptering? Or a simple macro that repeatedly presses 2 so that I don't have to hurt my finger spamming a button while I try to aim a targeted ability at an enemy that is running in circles across the map?

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Where's the line between botting and QoL?

Generally it's in regards to complexity.

 

A - Autofire is a very simple thing and it does not play the game for you.  It rapidly clicks to get high fire rates without finger wear, and DE has stated that's fine.

 

B - However some players were making scripts that were much more complex and would actually do a sequence of tasks for them, such as farming certain mission types.  Straight-up botting.

 

There's no exact line because there's a lot of variables, which is why potential botting cases are individual and can be looked at personally for a second review (as mentioned in the first post).

 

 

What if I want a script that allows me to more easily repeatedly spam desecrate as Nekros (whether that be holding down a key equates to repeated presses or a toggle)? Is that okay?

Personally I think that situation is okay because it's a single repeat action like firing, and if you were to get banned but you were only doing that you could contact DE and get them to check it out.

 

 

Common sense really does not cover the sheer scope of possibilities with macros.

That's why I didn't just say "use common sense".  I listed two categories of actions and talked about the concepts involved, and then I listed "logic" and "morals" before "common sense".

 

 

rapid firing is just the simplistic tip of the iceberg. What about auto coptering?

That depends on what "auto-coptering" means.  Will it do a single copter, or is it a script to repeatedly copter across a map with movement to get through tiles?

 

The first should be fine if done alone because it's one "action", but in the second case the script is playing the game for you, so that's not fine.

 

 

Or a simple macro that repeatedly presses 2 so that I don't have to hurt my finger spamming a button while I try to aim a targeted ability at an enemy that is running in circles across the map?

I know somebody that does that with Trin, that's the same situation as autofire, and that's fine.

 

See?  Logic.  If it's just repeating one keypress or something to save wear on your finger it's fine.  But if it's doing sequential actions repeatedly and playing the game or accomplishing a complex task for you (without your controlled input), then it's not fine.

 

This isn't rocket science.  If it'd get you banned in other games for botting, it'll get you banned here.

Not getting banned for simple autofire macros is an exception, thus the PSA.

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Generally it's in regards to complexity.

 

A - Autofire is a very simple thing and it does not play the game for you.  It rapidly clicks to get high fire rates without finger wear, and DE has stated that's fine.

 

B - However some players were making scripts that were much more complex and would actually do a sequence of tasks for them, such as farming certain mission types.  Straight-up botting.

 

There's no exact line because there's a lot of variables, which is why potential botting cases are individual and can be looked at personally for a second review (as mentioned in the first post).

 

 

Personally I think that situation is okay because it's a single repeat action like firing, and if you were to get banned but you were only doing that you could contact DE and get them to check it out.

 

 

That's why I didn't just say "use common sense".  I listed two categories of actions and talked about the concepts involved, and then I listed "logic" and "morals" before "common sense".

 

 

That depends on what "auto-coptering" means.  Will it do a single copter, or is it a script to repeatedly copter across a map with movement to get through tiles?

 

The first should be fine if done alone because it's one "action", but in the second case the script is playing the game for you, so that's not fine.

 

 

I know somebody that does that with Trin, that's the same situation as autofire, and that's fine.

 

See?  Logic.  If it's just repeating one keypress or something to save wear on your finger it's fine.  But if it's doing sequential actions repeatedly and playing the game or accomplishing a complex task for you (without your controlled input), then it's not fine.

 

This isn't rocket science.  If it'd get you banned in other games for botting, it'll get you banned here.

Not getting banned for simple autofire macros is an exception, thus the PSA.

 

I don't think you understand that saying 'logic' repeatedly doesn't actually make what you're saying any more logical. DE has yet to define what 'playing the game for you' is. Considering this is an issue that results in bans DE needs to thoroughly define what is and what isn't going to get players banned. Getting banned and having to contact support to fix it isn't going to remain viable. Think about how clogged support gets after big updates. What happens if I get banned and end up waiting a month before finally getting a response (it happens)? What if I had a kubrow out at the time? Is support going to revive my Kubrow? Are they going to refund the days on my booster that get wasted (assuming you have a booster active at the time)? 

 

There is a huge space of potential macros between a simple rapid fire macro and full on afk-timer-avoiding-botting. As you said "There's no exact line because there's a lot of variables". 

 

The best way (beyond scrapping an automated banning system) would be to clearly define what is and isn't against the rules. IMO they should also at least give players warnings (one or two for the same repeated offense) before autobans enter into the equation. Another alternative is just to make the use the automated system to auto-flag users as potential botters and then require an actual human to review the case and pass judgement. That should result in fewer examples of players getting wrong fully banned (won't completely prevent it, but its better than the current state).

 

I've played games that allow me to set up complete loops for casting various abilities. Using other games as a metric is not reliable. 

 

TL;DR- Autobans are terrible and often result in punishing and wasting the time of innocent players. This "PSA" was so vague that it really only created more questions. Anything that involves autobans should have its ban-able offenses clearly explained (especially in Warframe's case where macros were and actively are condoned to some unexplained degree).

Edited by SquirmyBurrito
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This isn't hard. People demanding more details need to get a clue.

 

If you happened to be, for example, missing certain fingers on your right hand when your right handed, you might bind a keyboard key to toggle repeat or hold down fire to get around your lack of a trigger finger whilst maintaining movement. This is accepted.

 

But if, for example, you have no disabilities and your running a macro to auto switch to your scanner and pulse it every three seconds until your primary or secondary fire buttons are pressed, your automating something the devs intend to be manual operations. This appears to be frowned upon.

 

We're all on notice. Think carefully about what you automate with macros. They are not going to give definitive rules, but they might ban.

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This isn't hard. People demanding more details need to get a clue.

 

If you happened to be, for example, missing certain fingers on your right hand when your right handed, you might bind a keyboard key to toggle repeat or hold down fire to get around your lack of a trigger finger whilst maintaining movement. This is accepted.

 

But if, for example, you have no disabilities and your running a macro to auto switch to your scanner and pulse it every three seconds until your primary or secondary fire buttons are pressed, your automating something the devs intend to be manual operations. This appears to be frowned upon.

 

We're all on notice. Think carefully about what you automate with macros. They are not going to give definitive rules, but they might ban.

 

Its like you don't understand just how uninformative your examples are on what is and what isn't allowed... made worse by the fact that you aren't even a spokesperson for DE. How is DE to know whether or not I'm missing bodyparts?

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Personally I think that situation is okay because it's a single repeat action like firing, and if you were to get banned but you were only doing that you could contact DE and get them to check it out.

"Personally" is a key word here. How can you set rules based on subjective criteria.

 

 

See?  Logic.  If it's just repeating one keypress or something to save wear on your finger it's fine.  But if it's doing sequential actions repeatedly and playing the game or accomplishing a complex task for you (without your controlled input), then it's not fine.

The thing is, AHK is uncapable of doing such complex actions like analysing tiles to get you through them. Repeatively do predefined set of actions is the only thing it can do.

 

One could use macro on Draco to repetatively click 4 on excalibur or 2 on trinity. This is not a complex action but it did almost all the job. Is this count as a ban-approved situation?

 

Another example. Macro that automatically inserts sliding phases when you sprint. This is a relatively complex macro since it has to monitor your buttons to determine whether you are sprinting or not. But all it does is adding QoL change to save your fingers from excessive stress. Is this a ban-approved situation?

Edited by Repligon
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I don't think you understand that saying 'logic' repeatedly doesn't actually make what you're saying any more logical.

A - Autofire on a key is fine.

 

B - The game playing for you without your input is not fine.

 

Two sets of criteria here.

The logic is to...

1 - Analyze what you want to do with AHK.

2 - Check which of these critera it falls under.

3 - If it falls under B, it is not allowed and you should not do it.

 

 

Getting banned and having to contact support to fix it isn't going to remain viable.

I think you're misunderstanding what's going on here.  Nothing has changed.

 

If you were not botting before and are not botting now, you're not going to get banned.

If you were botting before and are still botting now, you're going to get banned in either case.

 

The reason for this PSA is because players have begin actually botting Warframe.  This is not something they used to do.  Now they do, and they're getting banned, and they're telling players "I got banned for using AHK" (when in reality it should be "I got banned for botting the game").

 

The idea that you'll get banned for simply using AHK is false.

Thus this PSA to state that the idea is false.

 

(Check the below response to another player for more info.)

 

 

 

 

 

 

"Personally" is a key word here. How can you set rules based on subjective criteria.

It's on a per-case basis because so many things are involved.

 

The first post says that, and in addition says that if you think a ruling was made incorrectly, to contact them to get a second opinion on it.

 

 

The thing is, AHK is uncapable of doing such complex actions like analysing tiles to get you through them. Repeatively do predefined set of actions is the only thing it can do.

Incorrect.

 

Autohotkey has numerous functions to analyze the screen.

http://www.autohotkey.com/docs/commands/PixelGetColor.htm

https://www.autohotkey.com/docs/commands/PixelSearch.htm

https://www.autohotkey.com/docs/commands/ImageSearch.htm

 

And Autohotkey has logic to make decisions based on the outcome of functions.

http://www.autohotkey.com/docs/Variables.htm

 

It is entirely possible to set up Autohotkey to take certain pre-determined steps through tiles if you wish.  Fix the minimap and scan the map to determine the tile while aligning yourself to walls and in corners can easy remove discrepancies in starting positions, for example.  Then simply play the actions to get through that specific tile.  Repeat at each tile entrance until you're at the objective, then jump to the script section that completes the objective.

 

Autohotkey's scripting language is Turing-complete.  It is entirely possible to bot with it.

Googling can get you plenty of bot scripts for various games using the above mentioned concepts and more.

 

 

One could use macro on Draco to repetatively click 4 on excalibur or 2 on trinity. This is not a complex action but it did almost all the job. Is this count as a ban-approved situation?

From what we've been told by support and DE before, not if it's "hold the button to autofire".

 

But I think you and a lot of other players are severely underestimating what the banned players were doing.  They were not just autofiring a weapon or power key.  That's fine.  They were banned for botting, which is not fine.

 

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I love how the thread is called "autohotkey ban qualification" but doesnt actually tell you what a bannable offense using it is, yet people are still saying "THANKS FOR CLARIFYING THIS ISSUE". 

 

Why? Can we just have the specifics?

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A - Autofire on a key is fine.

 

B - The game playing for you without your input is not fine.

 

Two sets of criteria here.

The logic is to...

1 - Analyze what you want to do with AHK.

2 - Check which of these critera it falls under.

3 - If it falls under B, it is not allowed and you should not do it.

 

 

I think you're misunderstanding what's going on here.  Nothing has changed.

 

If you were not botting before and are not botting now, you're not going to get banned.

If you were botting before and are still botting now, you're going to get banned in either case.

 

The reason for this PSA is because players have begin actually botting Warframe.  This is not something they used to do.  Now they do, and they're getting banned, and they're telling players "I got banned for using AHK" (when in reality it should be "I got banned for botting the game").

 

The idea that you'll get banned for simply using AHK is false.

Thus this PSA to state that the idea is false.

 

-snip-

 

You seem incredibly well informed for somebody who doesn't work for DE, or do you work for them? 

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Because of this there are other factors involved in receive a ban due to the use of AutoHotKey.exe, including a review of multiple stats on the account in question. 

"Hey guys, using macros is not bannable, but there's a detailed rule that may get you banned. We won't tell you what that is."
 
u wot m8?

We hope this clears up any confusion regarding the use of AutoHotKey.exe and our stance on macros that assist players in-game.  Rest assured, running such software in isolation is not grounds for an immediate ban.

-DE_Adam

Well, you just made it more confusing than it was before.

 

Might wanna specify if:

A) Desecrate macro (3333333333) is okay

B) Turbo trigger (ClickClickClickClick) is okay

Edited by Shifted
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Thanks, things are so much clearer now. I think I'm gonna stop playing until this gets sorted out, I don't want to risk losing my year and a half old account (or months of my time begging Tech Support for help) over a technicality.

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- snip -

 

 

+1 thanks for saying what DE was afraid to spell out explicitly.  Too often devs are afraid of mentioning how people are exploiting and instead issue these statements which are vague to people who have no idea what the exploit is.  That leads instead to law-abiding citizens becoming afraid of using something legitimately because the boundary isn't clear to them.

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There is a big difference between doing something repeatedly, and using a macro to do something that you would not be able to do by yourself, giving you an advantage.

 

Spamming 1-4 in a defense mission/survival for two hours is not something that require skill. Missions require you to to have a proper build and a good setup, then its pretty self going. It's all about that preparation. It doesn't give you an advantage over anyone else to have a macro that loops one ability, okay maybe you get to go to the toilet briefly without failing your entire team, or you won't have to stop because your finger is about to break, but is that really cheating? It's already a risk by itself, if something bad happens while you are briefly turning your head away, the macro will just keep doing what it was told to do, it wouldnt save the day, you'd fail. Those people running macros generally don't just leave the computers and come back later, they just don't want to break their keyboards / mouses or fingers pressing the same button constantly. Be it at 0.5-2 second intervals or 20 second intervals. 

Using a macro to shoot or hit at an impossible speed because you stacked haste mods and cant keep up with your fingers, that's in my opinion not OK, and many agree with this. That clearly gives you an advantage.

 

So you can see the difference, having a macro repeating your own interaction, something that you can pull off by yourself, vs a macro that does things faster than you ever could. One is/should be OK hands down, and the other one is stepping into ban territory.

Edited by Midas89
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Using a macro to shoot or hit at an impossible speed because you stacked haste mods and cant keep up with your fingers, that's in my opinion not OK, and many agree with this. That clearly gives you an advantage.

Which is why U16 included a RoF cap of 10 shots/second for semi-auto weaponry. This is resolved.

 

So you can see the difference, having a macro repeating your own interaction, something that you can pull off by yourself, vs a macro that does things faster than you ever could. One is/should be OK hands down, and the other one is stepping into ban territory.

 

Both are okay. AFAIK the only thing DE has ever specified as bannable is automation. the only thing I'm at all worried about is if you use a single key spam, and if you aren't moving or looking around, from DE's perspective you could be AFK. They can't tell whether that macro is toggled (meaning you're not touching the keyboard) or not (you're there holding down the macro key).

 

The reason for this PSA is because players have begin actually botting Warframe.  This is not something they used to do.  Now they do, and they're getting banned, and they're telling players "I got banned for using AHK" (when in reality it should be "I got banned for botting the game").

That a significant enough amount of players to notice has begun botting the game instead of playing it indicates an unnacceptable (to me) level of 'farming' activity has become necessary for game progression. I'm not loving that.

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You seem incredibly well informed for somebody who doesn't work for DE, or do you work for them? 

There have been multiple threads in the past asking if using autofire macros with tools such as AHK are fine if it's just auto-fire on a button or something simple like that.  In these threads, there's generally a post from a mod or a screenshot from DE's support staff stating that they will not purposely ban users for something simple like an autofire macro (rapid fire on button hold), that actual scripting/botting tasks that are done with no user input are what will get players banned.

 

Here's some examples...

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/84551-thats-a-low-blow/#entry924494

[...]the macro would not have triggered a ban as we do not consider that on our list of things that trigger hack detection.

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/152435-about-mouse-macro/#entry1796805

Macros/hotkeys/fancy keyboard ninja-ry is fine.

Bots/memory editors/scripts to play or do tasks for you (i.e. playing the game for you or preventing AFK timer) are not.

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/152435-about-mouse-macro/#entry1801356

Basically if it's a script that runs automatically with 0 input from the user, it's not okay. If it's a script to perform as a macro that still requires the user to play, it's fine.

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/360300-autohotkeysmacros-allowed/page-2#entry4090586

8IeGFqR.png

 

 

Also, the capability of AHK to make a full-fledged bot or not comes down to the ability to read the current state of the program it's intended to control and then make decisions based off of that state (anybody who does any sort of programming could tell you this).

 

It took 5 seconds to google "autohotkey get pixel" to confirm that AHK can read the status of programs in multiple ways, and then "autohotkey variable" to bring up basic info on AHK's language to see that it has logical flow control.  In addition I googled "autohotkey bot" to confirm that actual bots making decisions based on the status of the game or screen (and not just simple macros) have been created for many games over the years.

 

 

 

 

 

+1 thanks for saying what DE was afraid to spell out explicitly.  Too often devs are afraid of mentioning how people are exploiting and instead issue these statements which are vague to people who have no idea what the exploit is.  That leads instead to law-abiding citizens becoming afraid of using something legitimately because the boundary isn't clear to them.

Yeah, definitely seems like this is the case here.  I know various other companies (Blizzard and Jagex to name two) will at least outline that the difference is in whether the user is still there controlling their character or not, but even then they won't outright name any botting techniques.

 

 

 

 

That a significant enough amount of players to notice has begun botting the game instead of playing it indicates an unnacceptable (to me) level of 'farming' activity has become necessary for game progression. I'm not loving that.

Well this isn't the first time that bad player behavior has highlighted problems, but I think the main issue nowadays is people thinking that they're required to max out every legendary mod.  This has been stated as one of the reasons that Baro only lists one or two new items per rotation nowadays, opposed to listing lots of new stuff each time in the first few rotations.

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I got auto ban 3 times last week,

im still banned because of AHK,

so please stop saying it's ok to use AHK.

 

T1I0Uqt.jpg

#330141 http://i.imgur.com/ctWLhV9.jpg

#331686 http://i.imgur.com/NI7EsUA.jpg

 

 


[DE]Maurizio:

you can use macros at your own risk but depending on how you're using the macro, it could potentially get you banned; so be careful!

 

DE clame it's fine to use macros in some cases,

but their system will auto ban you anyway,

here's my suggestion:

 

DO NOT USE AHK, IT'S NOT SAFE TO USE AHK,  MACROS NOT OK FOR DE.

 

my ahk script:

; Rapid FireHotkey, *~$LButton, LButtonLabelreturnLButtonLabel:Loop{if (!GetKeyState("CapsLock", "T") or !GetKeyState("LButton", "P")){break}clicksleep 100}return; bind melee attack to mouseXButton1::e; Alt Clcik to hold LButton!LButton::Sleep 200Send {LButton Down}return; i'll go+F1::Send i'll goreturn; thanks for the run+F3::Send thanks for the runreturn; Click Use Cipherf3::Send {Click 1080, 850}return; Defence reward << Exit!a::Send {Click 560, 270}return; Defence reward >> Stay!d::Send {Click 1040, 270}return
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