Synthesis Imprint Findings: Anti-Moa

[Morec0]

Is there a source for this information or a discussion about it somewhere? I don't remember Dark Sector all that well, but that last part piqued my interest and I'd like to dig it deeper (pun intended).

 

Not that I've been able to find. Like I said, it came from other people so you'd have to find one of the people who believe that to be the case.

 

pretty awesome.... can't wait for the next corpus synthesis target...

 

This actually raises an interesting question:

 

Should we look to expect these to go in chronological order, or should it be believed that they will be sporadic and out of order as they come, requiring us to place them in some orderly fashion?

 

My plat's on the second.

 

 

Or they use cloning as their primary means of reproduction.

 

Or maybe the Orokin having "different parenting" means that the Orokin have different ways of raising their children compared to the Corpus. For example, if the Corpus have a "tribal community method" for raising children, maybe the Orokin raise children with just the two parents. Or if the Orokin have the "tribal community method", the Corpus are the ones with just two parents as the primary method.

 

Both theories are intensely possible, and it should be noted that these theories aren't mutually exclusive with one another. It could very well be that BOTH are the case.

 

Personally, I lean towards the "they cloned them" method based on the mention of "Orokin genetic designers" in the Sahasa Kubrow Codex. The term "designer baby" springs to mind and how that debate is playing out in the scientific and moralistic communities in the modern world. My current interpretation is we're looking at a world that took such methods to their ultimate conclusion, with humanity being designed from the ground up to be genetically stronger and superior - even if that resulted in the creation of "slave races" such as the Grineer.

[MartianJellyfish]

Not that I've been able to find. Like I said, it came from other people so you'd have to find one of the people who believe that to be the case.

 

I see. Thanks anyways. From what I recall, the final boss was an Infested growth sealed in a vault, but it was put there along with the US submarine that carried the virus. I could be wrong though.

 

This actually raises an interesting question:

 

Should we look to expect these to go in chronological order, or should it be believed that they will be sporadic and out of order as they come, requiring us to place them in some orderly fashion?

 

My plat's on the second.

 

I think they'll be out of order, but have some hints for us to place them correctly in a timeline like the two we got already.

 

Personally, I lean towards the "they cloned them" method based on the mention of "Orokin genetic designers" in the Sahasa Kubrow Codex. The term "designer baby" springs to mind and how that debate is playing out in the scientific and moralistic communities in the modern world. My current interpretation is we're looking at a world that took such methods to their ultimate conclusion, with humanity being designed from the ground up to be genetically stronger and superior - even if that resulted in the creation of "slave races" such as the Grineer.

 

The answer is Eugenics.

[Morec0]

I see. Thanks anyways. From what I recall, the final boss was an Infested growth sealed in a vault, but it was put there along with the US submarine that carried the virus. I could be wrong though.

 

 

 

 

I think they'll be out of order, but have some hints for us to place them correctly in a timeline like the two we got already.

 

 

 

 

The answer is Eugenics.

 

Definitely not wrong about the boss fight and whatnot.

 

 

 

And sadly, yes, it DOES ring of eugenics. And while I personally have no morale quandaries about the idea of using "designer babies" to improve humanity, it IS a slippery slope when one considers the larger picture of what that means and how that idea has been applied by people throughout history.

[MartianJellyfish]

And sadly, yes, it DOES ring of eugenics. And while I personally have no morale quandaries about the idea of using "designer babies" to improve humanity, it IS a slippery slope when one considers the larger picture of what that means and how that idea has been applied by people throughout history.

 

I'm a scientist, I have no opinion on the subject besides the facts, but I wouldn't go around discoursing about it since it's a rather touchy issue, what with recent genetic engineering and artificial reproduction methods.

I do know for sure I wouldn't be here typing this if that was an actual thing in your society though lol.

Edited April 19, 2015 by MartianJellyfish

[ArcariusAero]

Both theories are intensely possible, and it should be noted that these theories aren't mutually exclusive with one another. It could very well be that BOTH are the case.

 

Personally, I lean towards the "they cloned them" method based on the mention of "Orokin genetic designers" in the Sahasa Kubrow Codex. The term "designer baby" springs to mind and how that debate is playing out in the scientific and moralistic communities in the modern world. My current interpretation is we're looking at a world that took such methods to their ultimate conclusion, with humanity being designed from the ground up to be genetically stronger and superior - even if that resulted in the creation of "slave races" such as the Grineer.

Hmm... maybe eugenics but I don't think cloning was exactly involved. I believe the Orokin "genetic designers" part in the Sahasa Kubrow codex is simply referring to well... how 3/4 Kubrows mention using genetic strains to modify them better for combat, which we also kinda do with Kubrow imprints. I dunno anymore, I'm tired.

Though I'm thinking that while the higher ups in the Orokin may have used eugenics for perfection, they probably wouldn't have risked genetic decay with cloning (assuming that they had imperfect cloning like the Grineer).

[Sir_Alex_Traffo]

2 days for the next target??? Bloody hell, I'd really like to know why all this time is needed...

[Morec0]

Hmm... maybe eugenics but I don't think cloning was exactly involved. I believe the Orokin "genetic designers" part in the Sahasa Kubrow codex is simply referring to well... how 3/4 Kubrows mention using genetic strains to modify them better for combat, which we also kinda do with Kubrow imprints. I dunno anymore, I'm tired.

Though I'm thinking that while the higher ups in the Orokin may have used eugenics for perfection, they probably wouldn't have risked genetic decay with cloning (assuming that they had imperfect cloning like the Grineer).

 

And it's that assumption I disagree with, as I say, much like the Corpus' and even Tenno inability to recreate the Prime weaponry of the Orokin Era on their own, the Grineer are working with shoddy, less-than-ideal versions of their technology. Throw that in with a mindset of "produce as many close as we possibly can in as short a time" rather than "carefully direct and shape this process to ensure perfection" and it could explain the Grineer's failing state.

[MartianJellyfish]

And it's that assumption I disagree with, as I say, much like the Corpus' and even Tenno inability to recreate the Prime weaponry of the Orokin Era on their own, the Grineer are working with shoddy, less-than-ideal versions of their technology. Throw that in with a mindset of "produce as many close as we possibly can in as short a time" rather than "carefully direct and shape this process to ensure perfection" and it could explain the Grineer's failing state.

 

I think it's mostly because the Grineer were engineered as soldiers and probably never had full access to the cloning technology from their "masters". So, when the Orokin higher-ups were gone, they had to find a way to continue using their breeding process, which didn't turn out as optimal as the original. That could (emphasis, COULD) explain why Vor was so interested in studying the Tenno, as the Tenno are the only thing left from the Orokin that didn't degrade like they did. The Grineer can't resort to the Corpus on that aspect.

 

I should stop quoting you now, Morec0.

[Morec0]

I should stop quoting you now, Morec0.

 

It's the easiest way to summon me aside from this Nekros gif:

 

 

I also agree with your synopsis of Grineer cloning and why Vor is so interested in us.

[Blakrana]

That could (emphasis, COULD) explain why Vor was so interested in studying the Tenno, as the Tenno are the only thing left from the Orokin that didn't degrade like they did. The Grineer can't resort to the Corpus on that aspect.

 

Indeed...but in theory, could they not then try and...acquire Teshin? He's the only known Orokin era individual other than Stalker and Lotus and, whilst he's probably got the best security in the Origin System (Master of Conclave, teaching countless Tenno how to fight), he's still potentially (In theory) less hyper-lethally dangerous than a Tenno...making him arguable rather...useful to the Grineer, if they had someone aware of the genetic stuff going on there.

 

It might be though that Vor's obsession was because of the Tenno's legendary combat prowess. The dynamic would be horrifically different if the Grineer had access to Tenno powers...but if there was an easier genetic template to work with...Who's to say...but if I were Tyl Regor and I were to learn an Orokin era survivor was still kicking around...there'd be a good reason to put on a solid offensive.

 

Just a bit of theorising.

[Morec0]

Indeed...but in theory, could they not then try and...acquire Teshin? He's the only known Orokin era individual other than Stalker and Lotus and, whilst he's probably got the best security in the Origin System (Master of Conclave, teaching countless Tenno how to fight), he's still potentially (In theory) less hyper-lethally dangerous than a Tenno...making him arguable rather...useful to the Grineer, if they had someone aware of the genetic stuff going on there.

 

It might be though that Vor's obsession was because of the Tenno's legendary combat prowess. The dynamic would be horrifically different if the Grineer had access to Tenno powers...but if there was an easier genetic template to work with...Who's to say...but if I were Tyl Regor and I were to learn an Orokin era survivor was still kicking around...there'd be a good reason to put on a solid offensive.

 

Just a bit of theorising.

 

That's true, though it could be he didn't know Teshin existed. Though, he DID know Lotus existed...

 

All in all, I think he went after the Tenno for the very reason he says to the Queens: "I know you are sour on mysticism, but I am beginning to turn my gaze towards it." Our Void power, our connection with it. I think Vor was convinced that something about that place and our connection to it was the key to solving their problem. And what better way to be able to analyze it than to study the Tenno themselves? And, of course, he needed a live one, what with our power fading on death.

 

Now, what this means for what the Tenno are, especially given what happened to Vor... That remains to be fully analyzed.

[MartianJellyfish]

Indeed...but in theory, could they not then try and...acquire Teshin? He's the only known Orokin era individual other than Stalker and Lotus and, whilst he's probably got the best security in the Origin System (Master of Conclave, teaching countless Tenno how to fight), he's still potentially (In theory) less hyper-lethally dangerous than a Tenno...making him arguable rather...useful to the Grineer, if they had someone aware of the genetic stuff going on there.

 

It might be though that Vor's obsession was because of the Tenno's legendary combat prowess. The dynamic would be horrifically different if the Grineer had access to Tenno powers...but if there was an easier genetic template to work with...Who's to say...but if I were Tyl Regor and I were to learn an Orokin era survivor was still kicking around...there'd be a good reason to put on a solid offensive.

 

Just a bit of theorising.

 

I can't answer because Vor's Prize was released in U14 and Teshin only appeared now, so it left a gaping hole here. But we just got the confirmation Teshin isn't Tenno, so there's that too. As for the "less hyper-lethally dangerous" part, Vor was going after the Tenno while they were still weakened from cryosleep so there shouldn't be as many risks as, say, going after a fully-awakened individual like Teshin.

 

I don't think what Vor was looking for was combat-related, though. I revised his quotes and he specificaly said "[...] we feed on your divine blood. Our children will flourish without disease". Sounds like old people gibberish but it's clear he believed the Tenno were the answer to their genetic decay.

 

 

I think Vor was convinced that something about that place and our connection to it was the key to solving their problem.

 

This is what I believe in.

Edited April 20, 2015 by MartianJellyfish

[Othergrunty]

Indeed...but in theory, could they not then try and...acquire Teshin? He's the only known Orokin era individual other than Stalker and Lotus and, whilst he's probably got the best security in the Origin System (Master of Conclave, teaching countless Tenno how to fight), he's still potentially (In theory) less hyper-lethally dangerous than a Tenno...making him arguable rather...useful to the Grineer, if they had someone aware of the genetic stuff going on there.

 

Well there are two things to consider.

 

First, information and knowledge in the game are not necessarily working the way we as players see it.

 

For example. There is the difference between what the game shows us and what is meant to be there.

 

In many RPGs a major metropolis of a region might only contain 30 NPCs and a total 5 shops. However in story the city is actualy containing a million people with countless businesses. A player is simply meant to fill in the blanks and what the game shows them is a summary of what is there.

 

Such things are necessary both because of the game's limitations and to prevent players from getting lost.

In the game we go to a Relay and through a door to Tenshin. But in the game's story he might actualy be in a near unreachable Orokin tower in the Void and even the Tenno can only find him because he allows them it.

He is simply on the Relay to cut short the amount of travel players have to do for these things. Just like how the same Syndicate leaders can be on all Relays at the same time.

 

Second. Considering his design and history Tenshin falls into the "Old Master" archetype which can be found in many kung-fu, wuxia and samuari movies.

 

Which means he is likely so experienced and skilled that he can beat an entire squad of Tenno with just his sword and no Void powers at all. Not to forget that he might actualy have Warframe powers similar to the Tenno, since we don't know how far the Orokin managed to unlock that secret.

 

If there would be a scene of him standing in front of an entire army of Grineer, the next would likely be of him walking away and the entire army slized to pieces including a Galleon for good measure.

 

So the Grineer might actualy be still unaware of his existance and even if, they might not have enough power to take him alive or against his will.

[Zarozian]

Indeed...but in theory, could they not then try and...acquire Teshin? He's the only known Orokin era individual other than Stalker and Lotus and, whilst he's probably got the best security in the Origin System (Master of Conclave, teaching countless Tenno how to fight), he's still potentially (In theory) less hyper-lethally dangerous than a Tenno...making him arguable rather...useful to the Grineer, if they had someone aware of the genetic stuff going on there.

 

It might be though that Vor's obsession was because of the Tenno's legendary combat prowess. The dynamic would be horrifically different if the Grineer had access to Tenno powers...but if there was an easier genetic template to work with...Who's to say...but if I were Tyl Regor and I were to learn an Orokin era survivor was still kicking around...there'd be a good reason to put on a solid offensive.

 

Just a bit of theorising.

My dude. Teshin is his own security.

[Zarozian]

Well there are two things to consider.

 

First, information and knowledge in the game are not necessarily working the way we as players see it.

 

For example. There is the difference between what the game shows us and what is meant to be there.

 

In many RPGs a major metropolis of a region might only contain 30 NPCs and a total 5 shops. However in story the city is actualy containing a million people with countless businesses. A player is simply meant to fill in the blanks and what the game shows them is a summary of what is there.

 

Such things are necessary both because of the game's limitations and to prevent players from getting lost.

In the game we go to a Relay and through a door to Tenshin. But in the game's story he might actualy be in a near unreachable Orokin tower in the Void and even the Tenno can only find him because he allows them it.

He is simply on the Relay to cut short the amount of travel players have to do for these things. Just like how the same Syndicate leaders can be on all Relays at the same time.

 

Second. Considering his design and history Tenshin falls into the "Old Master" archetype which can be found in many kung-fu, wuxia and samuari movies.

 

Which means he is likely so experienced and skilled that he can beat an entire squad of Tenno with just his sword and no Void powers at all. Not to forget that he might actualy have Warframe powers similar to the Tenno, since we don't know how far the Orokin managed to unlock that secret.

 

If there would be a scene of him standing in front of an entire army of Grineer, the next would likely be of him walking away and the entire army slized to pieces including a Galleon for good measure.

 

So the Grineer might actualy be still unaware of his existance and even if, they might not have enough power to take him alive or against his will.

Well the thing is~

 

The DE reads the forums. Then they get ideas from our ideas on what we write. :P

 

So anything we come up with and write on the forums is possible~

[Morec0]

Was re-reading the Anti Moa synthesis, and based on this:

 

 

 

"What about your corpus, don't you miss them? Your father?" I say.

 

"Orokin didn't have parents like you do, it was done differently then."

 

I think it can be solidly concluded that the Orokin DID use cloning to produce new generations, and that it wasn't just a case of "oh, they handed them off to a group after the parents had them" as was being debated.

 

Look at how the kid asks the question: "What about your corpus, don't you miss them?". Given that the corpus as a unit still seems to exist in this time - given that the father never tries to say that corpus isn't a thing anymore, only that the ones that raised him are dead - it can be deduced that what the father says isn't connected to them. After all, they're traveling in a group, likely this is the new corpus they are attached to. However, the child then asks about their father's father, to be met with the immediate reply:

 

"Orokin didn't have parents like you do, it was done differently then"

 

And from there the father talks about his corpus died off.

 

Based on this, I think it can be solidly decided that parents - as in mother and father creating a child - weren't a thing that was done back then. Sure, the children were raised as a part of the corpus - the larger group body - but it seems creating children itself was done in a different manner.

 

And given the Orokin fascination for genetic engineering, it can be concluded, in my opinion, that cloning was the primary means of reproduction back then. Why is it that not everyone is as decayed as the Grineer? Well because they likely weren't 1) overcloning just to have an armor, but rather took their time and 2) weren't using technology that barely is functional and in need of constant maintenance JUST to keep it running. The Grineer "womb" is described as "toxic" after all, so they're process seems to be what's leading to their decay, not cloning as a whole.

Edited April 21, 2015 by Morec0

[MartianJellyfish]

Why is it that not everyone is as decayed as the Grineer? Well because they likely weren't 1) overcloning just to have an armor, but rather took their time and 2) weren't using technology that barely is functional and in need of constant maintenance JUST to keep it running. The Grineer "womb" is described as "toxic" after all, so they're process seems to be what's leading to their decay, not cloning as a whole.

 

What if the Orokin also experimented with telomerase enzyme inducers or something, and that kind of technology was lost with them? (I'm assuming everyone knows what that is but if not, feel free to ask for an explanation anywho.)

 

I figure that could (in a distant sci-fi universe at least) have kept them from aging at all or at least severely delay the process - which could also explain the Corpus. If the would-be Corpus had this special telomerase in their genes and started reproducing sexually, that means every child they had would carry ultra-fresh genes and take a loooooooooong time to show age signs. We look at Darvo, he claims to be 105 years old but looks like what? 40-50 at most? And judging from hsi behaviour he seems to be a rather young individual for Corpus standards. My initial theory of Corpus aging included neoteny, but this brings the thing to a whole new level.

 

[Morec0]

What if the Orokin also experimented with telomerase enzyme inducers or something, and that kind of technology was lost with them? (I'm assuming everyone knows what that is but if not, feel free to ask for an explanation anywho.)

 

I figure that could (in a distant sci-fi universe at least) have kept them from aging at all or at least severely delay the process - which could also explain the Corpus. If the would-be Corpus had this special telomerase in their genes and started reproducing sexually, that means every child they had would carry ultra-fresh genes and take a loooooooooong time to show age signs. We look at Darvo, he claims to be 105 years old but looks like what? 40-50 at most? And judging from hsi behaviour he seems to be a rather young individual for Corpus standards. My initial theory of Corpus aging included neoteny, but this brings the thing to a whole new level.

 

 

I have no idea what any of that is. Elaborate if you desire.

 

But, all in all, I agree. Though one has to wonder where all the oldest of old Corpus went, or why Teshin and Lotus (at least the former) were able to survive for such long periods of time outside of cryostasis and not be dead when even those older Corpus seem to have died off.

Edited April 21, 2015 by Morec0

[MartianJellyfish]

*Long and boring scientific explanation ahoy*

 

A zygote (first cell formed from the fusion of 2 gametes) starts with rather untouched DNA strands, which the cell replicates to form other cells and so forth, until you have a fully formed organism. The process continues throughout the entire lifetime, which explains why we grow and repair our tissues when needed. Problem is, with time, the tips of these DNA strands start to be lost due to how RNA primers work, so this telomerase enzyme adds redundant sequences to the ends of these strands to prevent loss of vital gene-coding information during replication. Another problem is the production of this enzyme also decays the older the organism, so the new cells produced are of a lower quality than their parent-cells, which leads to physical aging and eventual death as we know it.

 

Why is cloning an adult individual problematic as well? Because you're technically taking a X-years old DNA strand that's already had some telomere loss and creating a new organism that's already "aged". The more you clone, the more telomeres you lose, the faster you age. I hope I managed to make sense out of all of this, I'm more of a researcher and I've never been a good teacher.

 

So, what I meant to say is, what if the Orokin found a way to revert the aging process by making the telomerase enzyme always active, even in their clones of clones of clones of clones? That could explain how Teshin is still alive even without going into stasis like the Tenno (I'm not including Lotus here because I have a different theory on what she is, but I could be wrong as well so I'll wait for her greatly expected "visit" to the Relays). So, again, if the Orokin engineered this special telomerase and it was passed to the pre-Corpus, that could also explain why they age so slowly.

 

As usual, I'm making too many assumptions, but it kind of clicked in my head so I decided to share.

[Gelkor]

What if the Orokin also experimented with telomerase enzyme inducers or something, and that kind of technology was lost with them? (I'm assuming everyone knows what that is but if not, feel free to ask for an explanation anywho.)

 

I figure that could (in a distant sci-fi universe at least) have kept them from aging at all or at least severely delay the process - which could also explain the Corpus. If the would-be Corpus had this special telomerase in their genes and started reproducing sexually, that means every child they had would carry ultra-fresh genes and take a loooooooooong time to show age signs. We look at Darvo, he claims to be 105 years old but looks like what? 40-50 at most? And judging from hsi behaviour he seems to be a rather young individual for Corpus standards. My initial theory of Corpus aging included neoteny, but this brings the thing to a whole new level.

 

 

 

This was kinda my assumption about the  Orokin & Corpus, functionally immortal/unaging.  (which is also my explanation for why they have so many crewmen to throw at us, nothing about telomerase changes fertility, and so the corpus humans could have roughly the same population expansion rate as we do now, except, you know, the old aren't dying, so, huge population problems)

 

The Grineer... I'm not entirely sure, for 1) I'm positive that they have some kind of mental imprinting thing to come out of the tube with the knowledge to speak and fight. So they've got to have some fancy brain-interface thingy.

2)  I almost wonder ifffff... Maybe Grineer clones are grown, not as embryos matured to adulthood in a short span of time, but as "parts" the way that we can (currently) grow skin, some cartilage, and even some organs (livers) from somatic stem cells on specialized mesh. Maybe their whole bodies as grown like that.

Edited April 21, 2015 by Gelkor

[OniDax]

What if the Orokin also experimented with telomerase enzyme inducers or something, and that kind of technology was lost with them? (I'm assuming everyone knows what that is but if not, feel free to ask for an explanation anywho.)

 

I figure that could (in a distant sci-fi universe at least) have kept them from aging at all or at least severely delay the process - which could also explain the Corpus. If the would-be Corpus had this special telomerase in their genes and started reproducing sexually, that means every child they had would carry ultra-fresh genes and take a loooooooooong time to show age signs. We look at Darvo, he claims to be 105 years old but looks like what? 40-50 at most? And judging from hsi behaviour he seems to be a rather young individual for Corpus standards. My initial theory of Corpus aging included neoteny, but this brings the thing to a whole new level.

 

 

 

*Long and boring scientific explanation ahoy*

 

A zygote (first cell formed from the fusion of 2 gametes) starts with rather untouched DNA strands, which the cell replicates to form other cells and so forth, until you have a fully formed organism. The process continues throughout the entire lifetime, which explains why we grow and repair our tissues when needed. Problem is, with time, the tips of these DNA strands start to be lost due to how RNA primers work, so this telomerase enzyme adds redundant sequences to the ends of these strands to prevent loss of vital gene-coding information during replication. Another problem is the production of this enzyme also decays the older the organism, so the new cells produced are of a lower quality than their parent-cells, which leads to physical aging and eventual death as we know it.

 

Why is cloning an adult individual problematic as well? Because you're technically taking a X-years old DNA strand that's already had some telomere loss and creating a new organism that's already "aged". The more you clone, the more telomeres you lose, the faster you age. I hope I managed to make sense out of all of this, I'm more of a researcher and I've never been a good teacher.

 

So, what I meant to say is, what if the Orokin found a way to revert the aging process by making the telomerase enzyme always active, even in their clones of clones of clones of clones? That could explain how Teshin is still alive even without going into stasis like the Tenno (I'm not including Lotus here because I have a different theory on what she is, but I could be wrong as well so I'll wait for her greatly expected "visit" to the Relays). So, again, if the Orokin engineered this special telomerase and it was passed to the pre-Corpus, that could also explain why they age so slowly.

 

As usual, I'm making too many assumptions, but it kind of clicked in my head so I decided to share.

 

Why would you expect everyone to know that?

[Gelkor]

Why would you expect everyone to know that?

I kinda had to laugh at that, I'm a biology (soon to be nursing) student, so I know it, but I know a lot of people don't even take biology classes in college as an elective (shame too because everyone would really benefit from just some basic 100 level biology and chemistry knowledge).

That said, it's also a relatively common subject in science->media news as one of the primary focii of aging research, so it's possible a lot of people here may have read an article at some point about how "Scientists are trying to stop aging."

That's what I love about science fiction, so many things you can just look at the science we have right now, or are trying to make it work, and then imagine a world where that breakthrough happens.

Edited April 21, 2015 by Gelkor

[MartianJellyfish]

Why would you expect everyone to know that?

 

XD

I wouldn't, actually, but I don't underestimate people. I remember studying genetics and whatnot in High school (not as thoroughly as in Biological Sciences/Pharmaceutics like I do now, though). Also, what Gelkor said.

[ASH_PRIME]

Cool story bro...

no I mean really!  that was a cool little story!