U16.4 - Are You Serious With This Conclave Changes?

[.Talia.]

 

If people are complaining so much about Lex, I worry about the complaining that will occur when real sniper rifles get added to pvp.

 

I worry about this as well. I can already predict a flood of ''nerf plz'' topics once they add the Vectis.

[oinkah]

Vectis reload: 0.9 (can be reduced with mods/improved with preemptive reload)

Oops, I forgot that reload mods boosted it's fire rate.

 

If people were complaining so much about Lex at 140 damage, I worry about the complaining that will occur when real sniper rifles get added to pvp.

I believe that Lex was an experiment to test how people would react to sniper rifles. Needless to say, it flopped. Lex is easier to dispose of in case of failure than an actual sniper rifle.

[Kanaima]

It would have been nice if they'd fixed the physical damage types still existing before continuing to attempt balancing weapons. I have no clue about the math behind it, but I imagine the Lex would've been hit fairly hard just by fixing that alone.

[Qynchou]

I used lex in pvp and missing shots with it was very punishing. What happened was people who stand in place and dont move get mowed down, then they proceed to go on pvp feedback and make a bunch of topics how lex is OP.

 

What the hell is the point to use lex now? Lex.P 3 shots same goes for Lex, the difference being 2 times slower fire rate.

 

Why the hell would I pick a weapon with 2x slower fire rate for 10% more damage? Instead of nerfing lex's fire rate, or adding more recoil, or reducing magazine capacity you punish players who can actually aim.

 

Keep listening to MR2 players who end up with 0/20 kd in conclave, see where your pvp balance ends up at.

 

Bo. P wasnt even a problem, gram was.

[rockscl]

 

 

here were many people exploiting bo p and lex while asking for nerf on both of them, so now actually hit the head and follow up with a melee strike,  if you cant do that you dont deserve be killing tennos with just a pistol, killing with lex was too easy at 140 dmg

Edited April 24, 2015 by rockscl

[Aggh]

Lex was the sniper rifle.

 

Bows have the unique advantage of punch through as well diversification through spamming uncharged shots with the downsides of charging + projectile travel. They cannot be compared apples to apples to Lex or a sniper rifle.

Let me tell you a story about how punch through isn't an advantage at all in PvP.  Oh wait, that's it.  The end.

Edited April 24, 2015 by Aggh

[Feyangol]

Fine, after the rage of yesterday I'll give you some serious feedback on your buffs, nerfs and implementations. I don't want to write a big text to every buff and nerf, so I'll summarize my opinion.

 

 

Buffs and nerfs should increase/decrease the viability of a weapon. Each weapon should have its own role, its own advantages and its own disadvantages. The terms "better" and "worse" shouldn't exist in a good pvp balance. You have to compare the weapons with themselves and say "this and this is better" and "this and this is worse" compared to another weapon.

 

An underpowered weapon is a weapon without an own role. A weapon which does not have any advantage over other weapons. If you want to buff it, than you'll give it a role. You don't need to buff the stats of a weapon in general, you can also add nice unique mechanics. Multishot can balance a weapon (->makes it more effective on close range and underlines the spread of this particular weapon), a higher headshot multipler can buff a weapon (good aim would make a medicore weapon to a good weapon), punch through can buff a weapon. So you don't need to buff the raw dps stats of a weapon to make it viable, you need to give it unique advantages. You should buff the stats only if it has completly garbage stats - that means that a similar weapon has only better (or same) stats. Give players options which they do not have with other weapons.

This is the problem why we do not see a lot variety - people use the best dps weapons of all weapon types, because the weapon mechanics are really similar AND some weapons have completly underpowered stats.

 

An overpowered weapon is a weapon which is so dominant that it takes the role of other weapons. If you want to nerf it, than you'll define the role of this particular weapon. You need to couple the effectivness of a weapon on a certain mechanic. You can work with multishot, headshot multiplers, punch through, stack effects (examples: gorgons speed stacking, kohm bullet stacking; why no dmg stacking on some weapons?) and what ever comes to your mind, to balance this weapons. A simple nerf of the stats alone is needed only for completly op weapons (like Bo Prime on its release).

It is a better idea to nerf bad players, so they can't user the advantages of a weapon properly, than to nerf just everyone. This is the reason why a lot weapon, which you nerfed, became bad after the nerf or you just deleted their own role.

 

That being said, if you implement new weapons, than you should look at the current weapons and find a new niche for the new weapon. What is the avarage dps (if you don't know: it is around 215 dmg/sec without reload time)? Does a similar weapon exist and how do I make this two weapons feel different without to make one of them useless?

 

 

 

And this is because I love the Sybaris and I want to show, how a really bad balanced weapon looks like:

 

 

This is it, the Sybaris. It has one of the lowest firerates, a low dmg, a low magazine, but at least not that much of a reload time. It is a accurate riffle for prefered longer distances. It is completly under the avarage dps without reload with 122 dmg/sec. I do not exaggerate, if I say that this weapon is one of the worst primaries in pvp (if not the worst).

Which weapon has a similar role and some kind of similar stats? It is the Latron P (I think, that we all agree that this weapon is balanced?) and now we look at the stats:

 

 

It has a lot more dmg, a higher firerate, a bigger magazine, it is also accurate and it has only a little bit more reload time (btw. the Latron has more than the double amount of dps than the sybaris). Is your motto "reload op" or how does the sybaris justify all this drawbacks? What comes to your mind, if you balance weapons like this?

Edited May 3, 2015 by Feyangol

[Feyangol]

The new Sybaris:

 

 

At least it is no more the worst primary weapon. But still, all this points haven't changed:

It has less dmg than the latron, less firerate, a smaller magazine, with the same accuracy and a little bit less reload time. Tell me, why should I use the Sybaris over the Latron? If I want to play with a fun weapon, than I'll use Sybaris and if I want to win, than I'll use Latron - is that your idea? How hard is it, to give the Sybaris either a higher headshot multipler or higher dmg than the Latron?

I used only the Sybaris the last hour and I have to say that it doesn't suck anymore. But besides the Sybaris-feeling I saw no reason why I should stay with this weapon. My Latron does everything better...

Edited April 24, 2015 by Feyangol

[Psychus]

I used lex in pvp and missing shots with it was very punishing. What happened was people who stand in place and dont move get mowed down, then they proceed to go on pvp feedback and make a bunch of topics how lex is OP.

 

What the hell is the point to use lex now? Lex.P 3 shots same goes for Lex, the difference being 2 times slower fire rate.

 

Why the hell would I pick a weapon with 2x slower fire rate for 10% more damage? Instead of nerfing lex's fire rate, or adding more recoil, or reducing magazine capacity you punish players who can actually aim.

 

Keep listening to MR2 players who end up with 0/20 kd in conclave, see where your pvp balance ends up at.

 

Bo. P wasnt even a problem, gram was.

You're kidding, right? Bo prime not a problem? Give me a break.

[Hueminator]

Is the change in Martial Magnetism an indirect nerf to Coptering?  Haven't really test it yet but I just feel out of stamina really fast by just coptering around.

Edited April 25, 2015 by Hueminator

[rockscl]

Is the change in Martial Magnetism an indirect nerf to Coptering?  Haven't really test it yet but I just feel out of stamina really fast by just coptering around.

 

if you are using martial mag, missing melee attacks will drain double stamina, im not sure if that applies to spinning attacks

[Thalahssalyst]

The new Sybaris:

 

 

At least it is no more the worst primary weapon. But still, all this points haven't changed:

It has less dmg than the latron, less firerate, a smaller magazine, with the same accuracy and a little bit less reload time. Tell me, why should I use the Sybaris over the Latron? If I want to play with a fun weapon, than I'll use Sybaris and if I want to win, than I'll use Latron - is that your idea? How hard is it, to give the Sybaris either a higher headshot multipler or higher dmg than the Latron?

I used only the Sybaris the last hour and I have to say that it doesn't suck anymore. But besides the Sybaris-feeling I saw no reason why I should stay with this weapon. My Latron does everything better...

I already try on Sybaris and i can say, its okay, his ttk its really good, u dont need more than 2 or 3 burst to kill someone, maybe a buff on his magazine, but on damage its okay, and i dont like the Burst weapon, but i already enjoy it :3

[Feyangol]

I already try on Sybaris and i can say, its okay, his ttk its really good, u dont need more than 2 or 3 burst to kill someone, maybe a buff on his magazine, but on damage its okay, and i dont like the Burst weapon, but i already enjoy it :3

You always need more than 2 bursts to kill someone. An excal will still have 10-20 health, if you hit 2 bursts. A Latron p kills an Excal with exactly 4 bullets - Sybaris should be able to do the same thing (that means for me: it should have 60-62 dmg), especially if you consider that it has a lower firerate. If you count a burst as one attack, than you can't asume that you'll hit both bullets, if you hit something. 

It doesn't suck anymore, but the Latron p is clearly superior to it, because it deals better dmg over time and is able to burst as good as the Sybaris.

Edited April 25, 2015 by Feyangol

[Thalahssalyst]

You always need more than 2 bursts to kill someone. An excal will still have 10-20 health, if you hit 2 bursts. A Latron p kills an Excal with exactly 4 bullets - Sybaris should be able to do the same thing (that means for me: it should have 60-62 dmg), especially if you consider that it has a lower firerate. If you count a burst as one attack, than you can't asume that you'll hit both bullets, if you hit something. 

It doesn't suck anymore, but the Latron p is clearly superior to it, because it deals better dmg over time and is able to burst as good as the Sybaris.

If they buff his damage again, u will going to see again a spamm on Sybaris in game, and constant ask for nerf it.

As i say, it looks good (for me).

U cant compare a Semi automatic with a Burst. it looks good for me i dont say its okay in general, but another buff its not really necessary.

[Feyangol]

If they buff his damage again, u will going to see again a spamm on Sybaris in game, and constant ask for nerf it.

As i say, it looks good (for me).

U cant compare a Semi automatic with a Burst. it looks good for me i dont say its okay in general, but another buff its not really necessary.

Yeah, yeah. You can exaggerate, we all know that. A request for a little bit more dmg, to let 4 bullets kill squishy frames instead of the current 5 won't change anything. Of cause I can compare Semi automatic weapons with burst weapons, because I can compare every weapon with each other. After all semi automatic weapons and burst fire weapons have really similar mechanics. I don't ask for a buff that brings the dps of the Sybaris up to the Latron (god, a 75 dmg Sybaris would be op), I ask for a small tweak.

[Thalahssalyst]

Yeah, yeah. You can exaggerate, we all know that. A request for a little bit more dmg, to let 4 bullets kill squishy frames instead of the current 5 won't change anything. Of cause I can compare Semi automatic weapons with burst weapons, because I can compare every weapon with each other. After all semi automatic weapons and burst fire weapons have really similar mechanics. I don't ask for a buff that brings the dps of the Sybaris up to the Latron (god, a 75 dmg Sybaris would be op), I ask for a small tweak.

My point of view its this, Currently the TTK on some weapons fell balanced we know it, well i just go direct to the point.

Elemental damage its coming, it its going to decrease the ttk drastically (i think), they removed the type different type of damages (puncture, impact etc etc...), but the armor types still exist (alloy, armor tenno (im really dont know what is that haha) etc etc), so probably, when the elemental mods come, we are going to see a big difference on dps, choosing Cold to make shield weak, and toxyn for example to reduce the hp.

I can compare too a Lex with a braton prime. You have for example the Boar prime, after and before the buff, it still suck, the fire rate its slow with his current damage, and no one is asking for a buff or a nerf because no one care (i think)... The same its happening with Sybaris, u still dont see a request for nerf or change, because it looks pretty balanced actually, give the chance to it, and make 2 shot kill, and prepare for the "nerf sybaris" threads.

What I say its, another buff its going to make that weapon powerfull without need it... Same its happening with melee, the constant threads for "nerf the gram" its going to destroy a heavy melee weapon, making it useless. 

To OP 37 to 54 its a big change...

Im hope for a braton buff again but i dont think it is going to happend T_T

Sorry if u dont understand me, i just woke up.

[rockscl]

a sybaris headshot is doing 120 on shields PER BULLET, idk about health, but the way i feel it, sybaris is easier to aim than lex´s, his magazine AND damage are harder to optimize than lex´s, all of that sounds more than fine to me, of course, i need more than 2 barrages to kill with it because given its fast fire rate, i tend to spam it, while i should be using it more like a lex and looking for headshots instead of bodyshots

 

its was a waste before the buff, and i think its fine as it is now

[Aggh]

You always need more than 2 bursts to kill someone. An excal will still have 10-20 health, if you hit 2 bursts. A Latron p kills an Excal with exactly 4 bullets - Sybaris should be able to do the same thing (that means for me: it should have 60-62 dmg), especially if you consider that it has a lower firerate. If you count a burst as one attack, than you can't asume that you'll hit both bullets, if you hit something. 

It doesn't suck anymore, but the Latron p is clearly superior to it, because it deals better dmg over time and is able to burst as good as the Sybaris.

 

Burst fire weapons are always balanced around the idea that you get optimal ttk if you land your entire burst.  Put on a recoil mod, the burst practically lands on top of itself.

[(PSN)stefanoarcilesi]

They will nerf Kogake someday?

[taiiat]

Lex is certainly a bad decision.

it's now the same as Lex [Prime], just shoots slower.

the extra 10 Damage doesn't compensate for shooting about half as fast.

this is easily remedied with choosing a Damage of say... 110.

you're overreacting for Sybaris. 37*2 per 'shot' with a decent RoF.

it's TTK is a average, and Damage Output is good.

i'm still more concerned that Damage Types are still a thing in PvP. when it should just be flat Damage.

Edit:

(god, a 75 dmg Sybaris would be op)

well you're in luck then!

because since it's a two shot Burst Weapon, it currently deals 37*2 per shot, which is 74 Damage.

so i guess it isn't Overpowered.

Edit2:

oh wait, now it's 54*2 for Sybaris?

...

it's now Overpowered.

Edited May 4, 2015 by taiiat

[Nighttide77]

They will nerf Kogake someday?

 

They already nerfed it.  They decreased its range so you had to be a bit better at using it in order to initiate the knockdown.

 

The thing is, kogake isn't the only weapon that has a knockdown.  It just seems to be the only one that people use to knockdown more often.  I need to experiment a bit more, but getting slam-attacked from a Dex Dakra seems like insta-death, and I'm pretty sure Bo has a knock-down slam attack.

[Feyangol]

Lex is certainly a bad decision.

it's now the same as Lex [Prime], just shoots slower.

the extra 10 Damage doesn't compensate for shooting about half as fast.

this is easily remedied with choosing a Damage of say... 110.

you're overreacting for Sybaris. 37*2 per 'shot' with a decent RoF.

it's TTK is a average, and Damage Output is good.

i'm still more concerned that Damage Types are still a thing in PvP. when it should just be flat Damage.

Edit:

well you're in luck then!

because since it's a two shot Burst Weapon, it currently deals 37*2 per shot, which is 74 Damage.

so i guess it isn't Overpowered.

Edit2:

oh wait, now it's 54*2 for Sybaris?

...

it's now Overpowered.

rofl

I'm pretty sure that you don't know that:

The firerate of a burstweapon, which you see in the stats, is already burstrate*burstsize.

That means the first Sybaris had 1,65 burstrate, a burstsize of 2 and 37 dmg for each bullet - that was the lowest dps ingame with not even high dmg per shot. Yep, this was an awesome weapon when they released it and it is totally op now, you are completly right (in case you didn't noticed: the last sentence was irony).

[taiiat]

-snip-

it's a Marksman's Weapon, you're expected to shoot for Headshots with it.

now it will Kill on average in one Burst, as you're expected to shoot for Headshots. (average Health & Shields is 229.x, normalized to 225)

so now it's Overpowered.

[Feyangol]

it's a Marksman's Weapon, you're expected to shoot for Headshots with it.

now it will Kill on average in one Burst, as you're expected to shoot for Headshots. (average Health & Shields is 229.x, normalized to 225)

so now it's Overpowered.

Not even 2 lex prime headshots kill a tanky frame, how can one burst with bullets which do ~40% less dmg than the lex prime bullets kill even a squishy frame in one burst? I'm interested ...

Edited May 4, 2015 by Feyangol

[taiiat]

how can one burst kill?

Sybaris:

54*2 Projectiles per shot, *2 for getting Headshots with a Marksman's Weapon.

ends with 216 Damage before normalization.

the first projectile, will normalize to 58.455 Damage on Shields. *2 for Headshot, 116.91.

the second projectile, will normalize to 54.135 Damage on Health. *2 for Headshot, 108.27.

225.18 Damage after normalization, which breaks the average Health and Shields that a Warframe has in Conclave.

Edit:

Lex Prime:

85*2 for Headshot, Kills in two Shots as long as 1/2 is a Headshot.

the first projectile, will normalize to 72.25 Damage on Shields.

the second projectile, will normalize to 85 Damage on Shields.

if either one of these Projectiles is a Headshot, it will be a Kill. however i would recommend the second shot to be a Headshot, so one panic shot and then the Head.

if the Shield hit is a Headshot, 229.5 total Damage.

if the Health hit is a Headshot, 242.25 total Damage.

i won't bother calculating the extra normalization on the extra bits of Damage on the Health and Shields if it Crits, because either one blows that Health Type out of the water regardless.

or, two Headshots for a guaranteed Kill with 314.5 total Damage.

Edit2:

900/7 == 128.57142857142857142857142857143 average Shields.

675/7 == 96.428571428571428571428571428571 average Health.

which tallies up to exactly 225 average.

Edited May 4, 2015 by taiiat