Greed's Never Good

[YagoXiten]

I'm probably going to get a lot of heat for this, but I have a max rank Flame Repellant and I'm not afraid to use it.

Greedy Mag should get changed:

First, the ability should only pull to Mag pickups that she can immediately use. IE, it only picks up Health Orbs, and Ammo if she is below maximum. If she has 275/300 Energy, it would only pull one Energy Orb. Basically how Carrier works. Second, the objects being affected should have a travel time as they get to her.

EDIT: For clarity, Mag would always pull mods, credits, and affinity orbs, to herself as these are always desired, and the travel time is there to imply that LoS is also necesary to pull a pickup.

As discussed below, some allies may want Mag to pull pickups to them, as well. Therefore, I suggest that in addition to the above changes, Mag will also pull needed ammo, health, and energy pickups (mods, credits, etc. too) to her for the clients that need them within 5m or so of her. This can be done as drop locations are capable of being in different locations for each client, so she wouldn't be able to Pull loot unless you stood close to her and wanted her to.

I know that, on paper, Greedy Mag is meant to pull pickups to herself, or to her team to be helpful in a pinch. It's meant to allow her to pick up an Energy orb or Life Support pack from across the room when she couldn't safely run there. And I know that some people play her exactly this way, and that's great.

 

The problem is that due to the mechanics for Greedy Pull, camping is encouraged for the entire party, regardless of whether they want to, and here's why:

We meed pickups.

 

We need ammo, we need Energy Orbs, we need the mods and the credits and the Health Orbs. To get those, and to be promoted to run around like ninjas hacking through the opposition, rather than spending the entire game hidden behind a box, we have to go run over them. Greedy Pull removes the need for this. It is easier to sit behind a box with an Energy/Health/Ammo restore and be cheap, because Warframe AI and grind mechanics. I know that I do not have to play like this, if I do not want to. But it IS generally optimal, which means players have a reason to do so. And if you have a Greedy Mag in the party, you aren't given a choice. If the Mag decides to camp, you had best bring a tent. Because she is going to camp, and she is going to pull your loot to her, and you are not going to be able to pick it up unless you play along and stay close. And it's not as though there is a much of a limiter to how often Mag can pull the pickups, or how far. She can drag them halfway across the map with a few quick casts.

Maybe it's just me, and I'm alone in feeling this way. But I am sick of playing Nekros and having safety net, my carpet of Health Orbs, pulled away from me to whereever Mag decides they should be. I am tired of finding normally easy to complete objectives rendered utterly uninteresting by content trivializing magic pancakes and the Mag that usually guards them.

Edited April 26, 2015 by YagoXiten

[Kasumi-]

I'm probably going to get a lot of heat for this, but I have a max rank Flame Repellant and I'm not afraid to use it.

Greedy Mag should get changed:

First, the ability should only pull to Mag pickups that she can immediately use. IE, it only picks up Health Orbs, and Ammo if she is below maximum. If she has 275/300 Energy, it would only pull one Energy Orb. Basically how Carrier works. Second, the objects being affected should have a travel time as they get to her.

No, no heat here.

 

I don't see anything wrong with this.

[arsyadpower]

wai chu hatin de gud stuf?

Edited April 25, 2015 by arsyadpower

[YagoXiten]

wai chu hatin de gud stuf?

I fail to see how it's good that I'm practically extorted to play a fast-paced action game like a casual iPhone game because one other player in the group has decided to spam one ability.

[CedarDpg]

Just add line-of-sight mechanics that DE seems to like adding to a lot of other skills. :) And Greedy Pull shouldn't pull items through "solid" objects like walls and crates and the like.

 

Additionally, since Mag's powers are "magnetic" in nature, her use of powers like Pull should have a chance to pull random objects like grates and crates and the like towards her for impact damage unless dodged by that player.

 

Bullet Attractor should only attract objects that are affected by magnetism. So things like lasers and light based attacks should not be attracted to the target under the effects of Bullet Attractor. (i.e. Prism lasers, etc.)

 

Mag's Crush would require such a high amount of magnetism to actually do damage, that they should either change the skill to affect the target's armor/weapons/etc. or they should make it do environmental damage to the map, making areas untraversable as all the metal affected by magnetism in the area gathers at the target...i.e. walls, machinery, etc. in a huge clump of twisted metal. Players could then get killed by the structural damage...either from falling buildings, or huge hull breaches and the explosive decompression that follows.

 

Enemy A.I. could also be made smarter...if hit by Shield Polarize...they could disable their shield generators to rid themselves of the effect, and then restart them after a time.

 

(Oh yeah, and also, if you're playing Nekros and you get in a squad with a Mag, you could just leave and find a squad that's not going to camp.)

Edited April 25, 2015 by CedarDpg

[(PSN)jwernecke]

Like it or not it is part of the semi-open world that we play in.  We are given the choice to play our game our way.  If you are not compatible with a member of your squad find a new person or squad all together. 

[YagoXiten]

Just add line-of-sight mechanics that DE seems to like adding to a lot of other skills. :) And Greedy Pull shouldn't pull items through "solid" objects like walls and crates and the like.

That doesn't fix the problem, though. Yes, now Mag has to step out from the box to use Greedy Pull, but then she does, moves two steps, pulls it behind the box, and carries on as normal. This is a band-aid fix that does nothing to fix the intrinsic problems with the ability promoting camping.

Furthermore, it doesn't change that fact that Mag, whether she's trolling and doing it on purpose, or merely just using Pull to try and help herself, can steal pickups from her team and place them in unhelpful locations.

Seriously, try to play Nekros on higher level content with Greedy Mag. So much of your survivability comes from picking up Health Orbs, that you drop instantly if you're not around a Greedy Mag when she's spamming Pull, because you're never in range to pick them up and then they're with her.

It encourages way too much passive play.

 

Like it or not it is part of the semi-open world that we play in.  We are given the choice to play our game our way.  If you are not compatible with a member of your squad find a new person or squad all together. 

It's one thing if you don't like the way your group is playing. It's quite another if you're not allowed to play your way at all because of their strategy.

 

Edited April 25, 2015 by YagoXiten

[GDSK-NXS]

Hmm I don't think that way, I think that Mag's pull should attract both credits and resources/ammo, but not affinity/health/energy. Why? because the first ones are in metal cases (i think) so they should be attracted, but the latter ones are just floating energy. This would still make people run for health/energy but would make a good pile of ammo for the players.

In this game, like it or not, we are not given any kind of "you should play this way" or "that way of playing isn't allowed" so complaining about camping isn't right, you know... If you don't like camping then don't do it, if you want to go and kill stuff around the map running then do it, no one is stopping you from that.

[YagoXiten]

Hmm I don't think that way, I think that Mag's pull should attract both credits and resources/ammo, but not affinity/health/energy. Why? because the first ones are in metal cases (i think) so they should be attracted, but the latter ones are just floating energy. This would still make people run for health/energy but would make a good pile of ammo for the players.

In this game, like it or not, we are not given any kind of "you should play this way" or "that way of playing isn't allowed" so complaining about camping isn't right, you know... If you don't like camping then don't do it, if you want to go and kill stuff around the map running then do it, no one is stopping you from that.

 

Complaining about camping in this way is perfectly legitimate. I'm fine with someone playing Volt, and someone else playing Limbo, setting up an Electric Shield, and sniping enemies from across the room whilst invulnerable. Those two players doing that doesn't stop me from running around and killing enemies and playing my usual way. They are not impeding me. They do not require I join in. I can, if I want to, stand in Cataclysm or have Limbo banish me. But I do not need to.

Greedy Mag, however, selfishly pulls all of the loot to her. So wherever she is standing, I have to either repeatedly run to, to aquire loot, every minute, or stand nearby. Since Mag can do this whenever she wants, every other party member is FORCED to adapt to her playstyle. And, to make matters worse, not only does she force people to play this way, but on many missions...this is optimal, because it trivializes content and helps to overcome the grind wall that is Warfarm.

So camping with Greedy Mag extorts you to play along with her for two reasons: One, the metagame, which you can ignore, and Two, the Mag player controls where drops go. That one you cannot control. Since you're pretty much forced to camp due to the lack of drops otherwise, AND it's just plain easier and more effective...You pretty much must either pitch a tent or leave the group. And no player should be able to single-handedly control gameplay like that.

[HawKish]

" I am tired of finding normally easy to complete objectives rendered utterly uninteresting by someone misusing mag"

I hear ya.

Can't count how many games I just abort to rejoin a separate instance whenever I see a mag now.  I don't even give em a chance (unless it's obvious the player is on a younger frame).

You're not alone.

[Tesseract7777]

Greedy pull could possibly use some modifying, but part of it just depends on the skill/playstyle of the Mag as well. Right now, in the interim, you can solve this by hosting and if someone does use a greedy mag, ask for a different playstyle. Ask for a Gmag who isn't a pure camper, because they aren't all campers. 

 

Not that I play Gmag, but I've played around plenty who do, and they do not all come equal. Some are just campers, and the way they camp in certain missions is actually a detriment to the team, other teams it's really helpful if that's the strategy you planned. Hosting solves all of this because you get to plan the strategy and walk if people won't cooperate. 

 

I was playing an intercept once with some people, I don't remember where. The gmag didn't just stand at an intercept point and use greedy pull over and over. Instead, she hopped around to other people's points and pulled all the nearby pickups to a spot near that squad member, so we could conveniently grab all the pickups without running too far from the spot we were guarding. 

 

And then she would run back to her point regularly to keep an eye on it. Really cool, and can show how a helpful player trying to help the whole team can be absolutely amazing with Gmag exactly how it works now. 

 

A lot of warframes have abilities that can greatly mess with other warframes abilities/playstyles. Gmag is only one of many that way, should the ability really be changed, or should we teach people to play better and control our own missions by hosting? 

[YagoXiten]

Greedy pull could possibly use some modifying, but part of it just depends on the skill/playstyle of the Mag as well. Right now, in the interim, you can solve this by hosting and if someone does use a greedy mag, ask for a different playstyle. Ask for a Gmag who isn't a pure camper, because they aren't all campers. 

 

Not that I play Gmag, but I've played around plenty who do, and they do not all come equal. Some are just campers, and the way they camp in certain missions is actually a detriment to the team, other teams it's really helpful if that's the strategy you planned. Hosting solves all of this because you get to plan the strategy and walk if people won't cooperate. 

 

I was playing an intercept once with some people, I don't remember where. The gmag didn't just stand at an intercept point and use greedy pull over and over. Instead, she hopped around to other people's points and pulled all the nearby pickups to a spot near that squad member, so we could conveniently grab all the pickups without running too far from the spot we were guarding. 

 

And then she would run back to her point regularly to keep an eye on it. Really cool, and can show how a helpful player trying to help the whole team can be absolutely amazing with Gmag exactly how it works now. 

 

A lot of warframes have abilities that can greatly mess with other warframes abilities/playstyles. Gmag is only one of many that way, should the ability really be changed, or should we teach people to play better and control our own missions by hosting? 

I'm going to look at League of Legends for a moment to demonstrate an example. For those of you who are not familiar, Anivia is a character in League who can create a wall of terrain that blocks both enemies and allies. Ideally, this is used to block off enemy characters to either isolate and kill them, or to block them off from a path they would have chosen to attack you from.

This ability, as you can imagine, can be used for trolling, and be detrimental.

Greedy Pull is similar to this, in that it can be undeniably helpful, or also be used in a way to promote trolling.

The key difference, however, is that typical and optimal way to use Greedy Pull, because of the other mechancis in the game, is to camp and invalidate your allies. Anivia's wall, however, does not have this problem. It is not more beneficial to use it in a negative way, so though there is the potential for trolling, it is not typically used in this fashion.

I am all for teamwork, I am all for Mag pulling pickups to her team when they need it. But the ability does not currently work to support that playstyle over the camping setup.

The changes in the OP fix this issue by making it so that she is only able to pull pickups that are needed. As I have it worded, it is currently only for pickups needed by Mag, but one could easily incooperate a check that will pull objects that benefit allies within say, a static 5m, so that it will also work for her team, but it will not do things like enable her to pool resources into a camper's fantasy, and if someone does not want Mag to yank pickups to her location, they can always stay away from her.

[ThePresident777]

I just wish DE would stop killing Space Ninja and favoring Space Camper.  It's tempting to want to break the Space Camper toys and sand lot.  But, the temptation to orbital nerf the F*** out of Space Camper wouldn't be there if DE hadn't spent a year+ building up Space Camper at the expense of Space Ninja while advertising warframe as a Space Ninja game.  Which goes to show that the problem isn't the game.  The problem is how the developers treat the players through the game.

Edited April 26, 2015 by ThePresident777

[Tesseract7777]

I'm going to look at League of Legends for a moment to demonstrate an example. For those of you who are not familiar, Anivia is a character in League who can create a wall of terrain that blocks both enemies and allies. Ideally, this is used to block off enemy characters to either isolate and kill them, or to block them off from a path they would have chosen to attack you from.

This ability, as you can imagine, can be used for trolling, and be detrimental.

Greedy Pull is similar to this, in that it can be undeniably helpful, or also be used in a way to promote trolling.

The key difference, however, is that typical and optimal way to use Greedy Pull, because of the other mechancis in the game, is to camp and invalidate your allies. Anivia's wall, however, does not have this problem. It is not more beneficial to use it in a negative way, so though there is the potential for trolling, it is not typically used in this fashion.

I am all for teamwork, I am all for Mag pulling pickups to her team when they need it. But the ability does not currently work to support that playstyle over the camping setup.

The changes in the OP fix this issue by making it so that she is only able to pull pickups that are needed. As I have it worded, it is currently only for pickups needed by Mag, but one could easily incooperate a check that will pull objects that benefit allies within say, a static 5m, so that it will also work for her team, but it will not do things like enable her to pool resources into a camper's fantasy, and if someone does not want Mag to yank pickups to her location, they can always stay away from her.

 

I've played a fair bit of LoL so I see what you're driving at. I think the problem though, in my view, is simply that by the way the game is designed right now, many warframes have abilities with the potential to troll big time, and there doesn't seem to be an easy solution to most of it besides: Be host, setup how you want, hope things work out. The problem with changing things too much is that it can break other things. 

 

So you implement a check so Mag can only pull stuff that she or other players need. What about loot drops like mods? Those aren't necessary for gameplay in any way. Does she still get to pull those? That's still increased trolling potential. Does she not get too? It takes a lot of the utility out of the ability. Carrier can suck up mods, but Gmag would no longer be able to pull them in this scenario, unless I am mistaken with what you guys are suggesting here -- loot drops don't seem to be needed or necessary. Note: Obviously mods are necessary to be good at the game, I mean during the mission, picking up a mod drop has no affect on the overall outcome. 

 

It's the same thing with Limbo for example. Sure you can roll to get out of banish, but he could just do it again, and again. Valkyr can troll people with ripline, Loki can troll people by switching places with them, Vauban and his bounce, etc. Vauban and spamming any of his abilities to literally ruin the FPS of players with not amazing computers and basically force kick them from the game. 

 

There are tons of issues like this, and I feel like changing the way the abilities work is more of a bandaid fix that will just cause people to cry nerf/buff again and again, and won't actually fix the underlying issue at play here. And in my opinion, the underlying issue is this: DE does not want to make these powers stop affecting other Tenno so much, because it would break a lot of actual, cooperative gameplay. On the other hand, because of that, it leaves a lot of trolling potential. 

 

In my opinion, the real solution is something people have been asking for for a long time, a vote kick option for the group, and maybe even one specifically for the host (or some kind of system like this). This way hosts who set up missions and have problem players who are not doing what they were asked, can be kicked. Then, another person can be invited in their place before any objective in an endless mission is completed (if they are trolling or not doing what you asked, you'll probably know by then). Or, if it's a random group and one of the squad members is being a big problem and not playing well with everyone else, they can actually be vote kicked. 

 

I think that would fix a ton of these warframe ability can troll problems, and a lot of other ignorant/lying/won't cooperate player issues in general. Right now, the only way to ensure a good group is to literally play with people you already know and trust. No matter what, there will always be trolling potential for a lot of abilities, but if we can kick, we can actually deal with trolls. 

Edited April 26, 2015 by Tesseract7777

[Vyrn]

Yeah, I'm with you there. Many people I have run with recently (from randoms to friends to clanmates) all see Greedy Mag as a "necessity" and refuse to allow other playstyles. Every game invariably ended with us hiding somewhere while the Mag pulled loot. We often didn't even make it that long in Survivals due to the poor location we stayed in solely because of the idea that "Greedy Mag makes this easy."

 

Suddenly, no matter what frame and weapons I brought or what I wasn't hold beforehand, I'm forced to hide somewhere or risk having messed up spawns due to my allies' placement and no loot thanks to the Mag.

 

It's also incredibly annoying in matches where I'm actively killing, run to grab some energy/ammo/mod/etc., and watch helplessly as the drops instantly travels 50m away through walls to an ally hiding in a corner.

 

It was a nice augment at first (and can be nice in solo), but it's gotten more annoying than anything.

 

If the augment must be kept, just change it so that the pulled items are only moved for the Mag herself. If I Pull a mod towards me, that mod would not be affected on other players' ends. Drops already aren't always in the same locations for hosts and different clients (most clearly seen in Archwing), so this could take advantage of that.

[BlueThingy]

I just wish DE would stop killing Space Ninja and favoring Space Camper.  It's tempting to want to break the Space Camper toys and sand lot.  But, the temptation to orbital nerf the F*** out of Space Camper wouldn't be there if DE hadn't spent a year+ building up Space Camper at the expense of Space Ninja while advertising warframe as a Space Ninja game.  Which goes to show that the problem isn't the game.  The problem is how the developers treat the players through the game.

 

Pretty much this.

 

It's not about nerfing one thing or another.  It's about deciding what this game should be.  Right now it's Campframe.  Bunkerframe.  Turtleframe.

[Hypernaut1]

Nah, greedy pull is good.

[GDSK-NXS]

Well, I can only say "I tried", I really encourage players to play the way they feel like to doing so, what you want (stop them from playing their way) is just as bad as what you blame them for. I may blame some players for doing things like rushing to void as fresh tennos with 1 or 2 warframes, as it's not good for their enjoyment of the game (and the community) to be there and answer questions they should be able to find answers to. But then again, haters gonna hate. If you want to complain, do it. I honestly don't see them complain about people that don't camp like people that don't camp about the ones that does it.

 

Has this community reached the point where you want people to have a less funnier experience with the game because of your selfish desire or fake sense of right and wrong blinded by your own game style?

[Rakosta_Kai]

Nerfing Greedy Pull because you don't like camping or feel that it encourages the practice would be a rather selfish change.

It asserts that DE should support your playstyle at the expense of someone else's.

 

Players camped before greedy Pull and player's will camp if (or when) it gets nerfed or removed.

 

 

A wiser course for you would be to choose to not camp and not join groups that plan to do so.

 

Another wise course would be for DE to implement a LFG system and allow players to add LFG notes to themselves after setting their status to LFG.

There are other people who share your interest in playing endless modes without camping choke points.

 

You just need to make an active decision to play with them instead.

[Tesseract7777]

Nerfing Greedy Pull because you don't like camping or feel that it encourages the practice would be a rather selfish change.

It asserts that DE should support your playstyle at the expense of someone else's.

 

Players camped before greedy Pull and player's will camp if (or when) it gets nerfed or removed.

 

 

A wiser course for you would be to choose to not camp and not join groups that plan to do so.

 

Another wise course would be for DE to implement a LFG system and allow players to add LFG notes to themselves after setting their status to LFG.

There are other people who share your interest in playing endless modes without camping choke points.

 

You just need to make an active decision to play with them instead.

 

 

 

This is sort of like what I was suggesting earlier in the thread. Instead of trying to nerf/buff every single ability that could potentially negatively affect another player in coop (with the unintended consequence of possibly breaking that ability for legitimate coop potential), we should have some sort of better grouping system. Whether it's a vote kick at least for the host, or for the group, or some kind of better LFG system, the true solution is to give us better control over the way our squad is set up. The group should be able to band together to kick a troll, a host should be able to kick a player in the lobby, or later, and invite someone else, if the player is not following what the host asked for, or is generally being a pain. 

Edited April 26, 2015 by Tesseract7777

[GDSK-NXS]

I think that kicking isn't fine unless 3/4 majority of players want to do it, so in a 2 vs 2 would not be efficient. If the host held all the power it would be unfair. So it's not that simple to add a "kick" without consequences. I think that a "preferences" tab right under (or at the side) of the game mode selection with a bunch of simple things that can me mixed for more specific parties (like "Mod Farming", "No Spam" and "No Camp", each one can make up a party but could be more specific if used together).

[YagoXiten]

I've played a fair bit of LoL so I see what you're driving at. I think the problem though, in my view, is simply that by the way the game is designed right now, many warframes have abilities with the potential to troll big time, and there doesn't seem to be an easy solution to most of it besides: Be host, setup how you want, hope things work out. The problem with changing things too much is that it can break other things. 

 

So you implement a check so Mag can only pull stuff that she or other players need. What about loot drops like mods? Those aren't necessary for gameplay in any way. Does she still get to pull those? That's still increased trolling potential. Does she not get too? It takes a lot of the utility out of the ability. Carrier can suck up mods, but Gmag would no longer be able to pull them in this scenario, unless I am mistaken with what you guys are suggesting here -- loot drops don't seem to be needed or necessary. Note: Obviously mods are necessary to be good at the game, I mean during the mission, picking up a mod drop has no affect on the overall outcome. 

 

It's the same thing with Limbo for example. Sure you can roll to get out of banish, but he could just do it again, and again. Valkyr can troll people with ripline, Loki can troll people by switching places with them, Vauban and his bounce, etc. Vauban and spamming any of his abilities to literally ruin the FPS of players with not amazing computers and basically force kick them from the game. 

 

There are tons of issues like this, and I feel like changing the way the abilities work is more of a bandaid fix that will just cause people to cry nerf/buff again and again, and won't actually fix the underlying issue at play here. And in my opinion, the underlying issue is this: DE does not want to make these powers stop affecting other Tenno so much, because it would break a lot of actual, cooperative gameplay. On the other hand, because of that, it leaves a lot of trolling potential. 

 

In my opinion, the real solution is something people have been asking for for a long time, a vote kick option for the group, and maybe even one specifically for the host (or some kind of system like this). This way hosts who set up missions and have problem players who are not doing what they were asked, can be kicked. Then, another person can be invited in their place before any objective in an endless mission is completed (if they are trolling or not doing what you asked, you'll probably know by then). Or, if it's a random group and one of the squad members is being a big problem and not playing well with everyone else, they can actually be vote kicked. 

 

I think that would fix a ton of these warframe ability can troll problems, and a lot of other ignorant/lying/won't cooperate player issues in general. Right now, the only way to ensure a good group is to literally play with people you already know and trust. No matter what, there will always be trolling potential for a lot of abilities, but if we can kick, we can actually deal with trolls. 

I agree that there is a problem with many Warframes having trolling abilities, but the difference in (most) of those cases is that there is not an incentive to use them to screw over your allies, nor do they do it as a side effect. Limbo can banish you and prevent you from hacking consoles, yes. But he has no reason to do so except to be a jerk. If he goes around Banishing every enemy so no one can damage them, you can still at least use your powers to kill them, and his own progression is halted by this trolling tactic. With Greedy Mag, what is optimal for her is not necesarily anywhere near optimal for you, and she's going to harm you whether she really means to or not in most cases.

You are mistaken as to what I mean. Loot drops can land in different locations for each client. I see no reason why Mag couldn't pull the mods for herself, and only pull them for the clients who are standing near her. Energy Orbs and Health Orbs would be pulled in a similar fashion. If you are standing near Mag with less than max Energy or max Health, or max Ammo, she would pull that, too, if you needed it, even if she did not.

A Vote Kick option could be handy, but most Greedy Mag players aren't INTENDING to force a specific playstyle. They're using Greedy Pull so they can camp, which is fine. The problem is that it makes it difficult for everyone else in the group to avoid camping if they don't want to. Because of this, fixing Greedy Pull is much more beneficial than everyone just being able to remove Mag from the group if they don't want to camp.

 

Yeah, I'm with you there. Many people I have run with recently (from randoms to friends to clanmates) all see Greedy Mag as a "necessity" and refuse to allow other playstyles. Every game invariably ended with us hiding somewhere while the Mag pulled loot. We often didn't even make it that long in Survivals due to the poor location we stayed in solely because of the idea that "Greedy Mag makes this easy."

 

Suddenly, no matter what frame and weapons I brought or what I wasn't hold beforehand, I'm forced to hide somewhere or risk having messed up spawns due to my allies' placement and no loot thanks to the Mag.

 

It's also incredibly annoying in matches where I'm actively killing, run to grab some energy/ammo/mod/etc., and watch helplessly as the drops instantly travels 50m away through walls to an ally hiding in a corner.

 

It was a nice augment at first (and can be nice in solo), but it's gotten more annoying than anything.

 

If the augment must be kept, just change it so that the pulled items are only moved for the Mag herself. If I Pull a mod towards me, that mod would not be affected on other players' ends. Drops already aren't always in the same locations for hosts and different clients (most clearly seen in Archwing), so this could take advantage of that.

This is basically what I am suggesting. Mag pulls pickups she can immediately use, rather than all pickups, and pickups for allies who can also use them who are standing close to her on the cast.

 

Well, I can only say "I tried", I really encourage players to play the way they feel like to doing so, what you want (stop them from playing their way) is just as bad as what you blame them for. I may blame some players for doing things like rushing to void as fresh tennos with 1 or 2 warframes, as it's not good for their enjoyment of the game (and the community) to be there and answer questions they should be able to find answers to. But then again, haters gonna hate. If you want to complain, do it. I honestly don't see them complain about people that don't camp like people that don't camp about the ones that does it.

 

Has this community reached the point where you want people to have a less funnier experience with the game because of your selfish desire or fake sense of right and wrong blinded by your own game style?

 

I don't mind if Volt wants to go set up an Electric Shield tent and stay there the entire mission. I don't mind if Nekros wants to stand on the Cryopod and use Desecrate the entire mission. I don't mind if Limbo goes around in Rift Walk banishing a single enemy at a time. None of those playstyles, not a single one, prevents me from playing the mission in my own way or impedes the other members in the group. Greedy Mag, however, forces the rest of the group to go find her to pickup the ammo, energy, health, mods, and credits that we have worked for. It ends up promoting everyone to camping, because it's just easier than to try and fight with an ally.

 

Nerfing Greedy Pull because you don't like camping or feel that it encourages the practice would be a rather selfish change.

It asserts that DE should support your playstyle at the expense of someone else's.

 

Players camped before greedy Pull and player's will camp if (or when) it gets nerfed or removed.

 

 

A wiser course for you would be to choose to not camp and not join groups that plan to do so.

 

Another wise course would be for DE to implement a LFG system and allow players to add LFG notes to themselves after setting their status to LFG.

There are other people who share your interest in playing endless modes without camping choke points.

 

You just need to make an active decision to play with them instead.

Some content is extremely difficult to solo. Therefore you join groups. Sitting around in Recruiting asking for specifc team compositions to avoid Greedy Mag drastically slows down completeing content. A much easier fix is to make it so that Greedy Mag no longer gets to control where the loot goes for the entire group. Only herself and perhaps players near her.

The problem is that Greedy Mag pretty much FORCES her team to play with her strategy. She is one of four people. She brings Greedy Mag and the rest of the team's opinions goes out the window. What you are basically saying is that it is fine for her to force her team to adapt to her playstyle, and that is my responsibility to find a group to cater to me, rather than everyone being able to go into a mission and play their own way and cooperate with each other on fair terms. Because it is not fair that Greedy Mag's 'team strategizing' comes down to 'Mag wants to stand here, so you'll stand here or suffer.'

 

This is sort of like what I was suggesting earlier in the thread. Instead of trying to nerf/buff every single ability that could potentially negatively affect another player in coop (with the unintended consequence of possibly breaking that ability for legitimate coop potential), we should have some sort of better grouping system. Whether it's a vote kick at least for the host, or for the group, or some kind of better LFG system, the true solution is to give us better control over the way our squad is set up. The group should be able to band together to kick a troll, a host should be able to kick a player in the lobby, or later, and invite someone else, if the player is not following what the host asked for, or is generally being a pain. 

Whilst I agree that there should be some options for such a feature, I do not believe this is needed in the case of Mag.

Greedy Pull enabling camping is not an issue. If you want to camp, by all means, go for it. I don't have a problem with it. Sometimes, I enjoy it. I have a Volt, a friend has a Limbo, we've definitely set up a Cataclysm / Electric Shield combo and pitched a tent. The difference is that if I go into public doing that, the other members of the group are free to not do that. If I was on Greedy Mag and decided to camp, the rest of the team has to play along because I control where their loot goes, and they need and want that. So they either leave because I have an unfair say and they don't like what I am saying, or they stay and adapt to my whims. Neither of those options is fair for those three other members of the group.

 

Edited April 26, 2015 by YagoXiten

[Tesseract7777]

That's a completely fair rebuttal to what I said. +1 from me. 

[DSpite]

The problem is not the ability, it's the fact we have these weird "dead bodies drop stuff" mechanics.

 

What I am about to say are not suggestions, I'm just making a point:

 

Energy should be a game mechanic, not an Orb drop. Ammo should be something that we can pickup EXTRA amounts of, store, and then "burn" as Restores (in place of the current Restores), so when we use up full clips, we use a "timed" mechanic to unpack the extra ammo and fill up our active reserve. Dropped Mods from enemies should be something that gets added to a party pool and given to anyone at the end of the mission, as long as some basic "mission requirements" are fulfilled. About the only thing that COULD stay is some resource drops from dead units, maybe.

 

If we had this as an example, rather then the current stuff, we wouldn't need Greedy Pull mods, or Vacuum or have to run around like idiots and could concentrate just on running the mission at hand.

 

How many times have you ran back 5+ tiles because someone marked a Rare Mod that you might want, that dropped from some stray enemy, and you ran from the Extraction point to go pick it up?

 

It's rather silly we still have Diablo mechanic in our Ninja game.

[YagoXiten]

The problem is not the ability, it's the fact we have these weird "dead bodies drop stuff" mechanics.

 

What I am about to say are not suggestions, I'm just making a point:

 

Energy should be a game mechanic, not an Orb drop. Ammo should be something that we can pickup EXTRA amounts of, store, and then "burn" as Restores (in place of the current Restores), so when we use up full clips, we use a "timed" mechanic to unpack the extra ammo and fill up our active reserve. Dropped Mods from enemies should be something that gets added to a party pool and given to anyone at the end of the mission, as long as some basic "mission requirements" are fulfilled. About the only thing that COULD stay is some resource drops from dead units, maybe.

 

If we had this as an example, rather then the current stuff, we wouldn't need Greedy Pull mods, or Vacuum or have to run around like idiots and could concentrate just on running the mission at hand.

 

How many times have you ran back 5+ tiles because someone marked a Rare Mod that you might want, that dropped from some stray enemy, and you ran from the Extraction point to go pick it up?

 

It's rather silly we still have Diablo mechanic in our Ninja game.

My core complaint is that the Mag player is capable of manipulating game mechanics so that other players, regardless of their desire to do so or not do so, are essentially forced to play the same specific way as her. (My second, albeit less decisive, complaint is that the playstyle she is using is also an unhealthy one. This point is somewhat moot, however, as it is cyclic: the RNG heavy design encourages it, and the playstyle as it currently stands encourages more RNG to prevent content being trivialized.)

I believe firmly in the drop system. It encourages players to take risk, plan their movements intelligently, stick together as a team, and makes killing enemies a fun objective in its own right--who doesn't love the Grineer pinata raining loot when s/he goes flying across the map from your Paris Prime shot?

Not to say that I believe the current drop system is perfect--Energy Orbs in particular create problematic gameplay concerns which I will likely address in another thread at a later time--but the drop system is not the problem to my argument for changing/nerfing Greedy Pull.