Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Sasha_The_Lynx

Stealth And Ai System Broken Beyond Belief

Recommended Posts

Well now, i dont know, HOW, you actualy had the decency of checking this thread, unless it was a mistake, and if so, then

press Backspace or the back button to go back from where you originaly came from and continue your

browswing.

 

This Thread is about Stealth and Ai systems, that has been gltiched and bugged since the release of Warframe.

If Stealth isnt your thing and you are a rusher, or a Space Pirate that cries for loot like a spoiled child, then just leave,

this thread isnt for you.

 

Now, for the thread itself, look below.

---

After such a long time of playing Warframe, and as long as Warframe has existed, the Ai and the stealth mechanic are broken beyond belief. I have went and converted this thread into a more universal stealth and ai bug thread and

will list everything that is currently wrong with the whole system.

 

There has been extremely few fixes, but the msot notacle ones wil be added below this

spoiler tag.

 

Spoiler
-
As of Update 18.1.3, enemies in a different room(wich are quite sound proof) wont magicly know your
existance when an enemy sees you or combats you in the said room.
"NPCs no longer alert all teammates when fighting a player.  Their proximity alert now has a limited range and will not go beyond closed doors."
 
Enemies now finaly understnads that dying and falling to the floor is bad, thus alerts them if they see a companion die.

-

More to be added soon...

The list is as of follows.

 

1: Enemies will at random, know your existance without the need to see, hear or notice you. This is often prominent

when you leave enemies behind when trying to be stealthy.

 

2: Enemy Ai is broken to the point that, you may think Gearbox Software made the Ai for the game, wich

is demonstrated here in this gif

All enemies that gets to a designated Ai Node will sometimes have this problem.

Spoiler

The reason for this from what i can understand, is that the Ai Node is a narrow object. This causes the Enemy Ai to

spin aroudn the Node as it tries to aim for it, wich casues this majestic dance.

anvIyYp.gif

YUBEzZh.gif

crQWx2n.gif

 

 

3: When an enemy is being moved via ingame-code (So that players dont have to run back to get the enemy during

extermination or similar missions), the way the code works is broken and can cause all enemies to know where you are and know that you exist. This is also presented in the same way when an enemy can sometimes disapear out of nowhere infront of you (This happens when an enemy jumps to a platform. Not 100% of the time, but it can happen.).This is probably because that, unlike most games that handles enemy units with cut and paste command, the game simply moves the said enemy at an extremely high speed, but it isnt fast enough, and the line of sight gets wider and any Tenno they see will not only alert the said target, but everyone in the room.

 

4: When group of enemies are close togheter and stands on a designated Ai Node, they will get stuck in one another

to the point where they start spinning around with paused animations. This is very problematic for the stealth players that tend to play the mission without killing anyone (non exterminate missions). Here is a gif demonstrating this

Spoiler

The reason for this is that, there is already an enemy unit taking the space of the Ai node, and the surounding enemy units gets

confused of why they cant stand on it, wich causes this glitch to happen.This is shown in the gif that one enemy unit is in the

middle, possibly on the Ai Node, while the rest dont know what to do.

By9CMLT.gif

 

 

 

5: At some points, an enemy in the next room might suspect that someone is nearby and will go into cover, while his/her

comrades ignores this. (Same as before, they dont have to know that you exist or have seen or heard you). This could happen due to how the game spawns the enemy unit, wich sometimes, doenst work as intended.

 

6: Enemies that sees their allies die infront of them with a silent weapon will sometimes just stand there and

stare at their dead bodies and carry on with the patroling. A real guard would be suspicious and alert

his allies of a potentional threat. This is probably because of that, enemy units follow sounds rather than sight most of the time.

Wich is why the enemy unit ignores the dead ally when a weapon is silent.

 

7: Syndicate allies have no repsect for silence and stealth, and those that are put behind on hold will kill enemies that spawn near them (since a player is not presented in that room, enemy units will spawn in there with the allies since the syndicate allies arent marked as player units).I have done multiple tests, including Spy and Deception and Rescue.

Most of the time, DE tells players to ''just tell the allies to stay put'', but they underestimate their game's glitchy system.
When they stay put, they will engage any enemy that spawns near them and any enemy that you find further into the mission will be alerted to it, even if they technicly cant hear it.

 

8: The problem has been fixed since 18.5

8: While this isnt an Ai problem per say, this one is still anoying and can be abused.

If you snipe an enemy from a very far distance, such as in the Grineer Asteroid base r other large areas,

An enemy will respawn directly and will spawn in your line of sight. Continue killing the spawned enemy, and another

one will take its place. This was supposed to be fixed since 17.2.3, but apparerntly, it wasnt

Spoiler

RvUOk2q.gif

This is also possible in some areas like the spy vaults, like shown below.

EwR0geX.gif

 

9: Sometimes, The enemies doesnt know how to use cover correctly, and will stay in cover regardless where

you are. Thanks Handstamp for the screenshot.

Spoiler

fpSsNlq.png

 

10: Another thing regarding syndicates. Their weapons, may it be their primary or secondary,have this radial

explosion that causes damage to everyone around you. Now, this is fine during open combat and for players

that seek carnage, but for stealth, its bad, really bad. On high end missions, the radial blast

doesnt kill the targets around you, but damages them and alerts them.

Having the option to manualy activate the blast sould be adequate, or give the silent

syndicate weapons a different effect that is not a nuke. 

(The syndicate proc effect is currently being worked on to fix the stealth issue acording to Devstream 60)

 

11: This is something minor, but still something intersting to note after playing my old Splinter Cell 1 game on the pc.

Im that game, your running and walking speed determine the sound your feet makes and the material you walk on, may

it be ground, metal, wood or whatever. In warframe, no mather how heavy your warframe is, may it be Rhino, Chroma or Atlas or whatever heavy frame, their feet still stay silent no mather how heavy you run or jump.

This also applies to when an enemy unit screams after he/she dies, while the rest of the enemies, ignores this.

 

For Space Pirates (The Warframe Community), this is nothing to bother, as they blast everything in sight regardless.

For me, i think that, even if a weapon is silent, there still need to be a consequence when missing, for example.

If you miss the target with your Latron or Vectis or whatever, and the bullet hits a wall, it create sparks and make a small, cling noise, or you miss your target with an arrow from one of the bows. The Enemy unit sould atleast know that something is going on, but after many tests, non of that mathers.

 

---Interesting notes from users---

Below here are chosen comments that contain some interesting information regarding of what they

know about the stealth and Ai systems.

 

Spoiler
On 2015-08-27 at 0:19 AM, Lord_Xenon said:
 
 

The thing with close vs ranged combat: ~15m is their viewrange(I'm guessing from the 'Tenno Scoom is there' taunting) - Guns have a noiselevel which alert them within x m(same with their guns alert other ones).

 

To the realism: Sorry, but if they aren't squadmembers, you don't know they even exist. He could use another path, being far away or just not here. Why should solider a at the facility know of the 10 dead mens in the entrance of the vault, which is 200m away? If you bring in realism, the bodies need to stay - until they get removed from YOU - to show the remaining soldiers - oh there is one slaughering us!

 

I encountered these bugs:

 

Drahks hunting you(even at 0s in the mission being).

Roller have a 360° view.

Sometimes enemies getting alerted with 25+m away.

Sentinel can ruin stealthhits.

Kubrow killing stealthkills(at least I saw my VIP target one grabing one and then I lost the stealthkill of him - alerting other around the dead one).

 

First was in Grineer Saturn T2 spy missions.

Second in T3 Grineer.

Third like first(because in T3 I'm just rushing through).

Fourth was T2 too.

Sentinel is every with a very rare chance to occur(and need an enemy within 10m to hear the shot at stealthkilltarget).

Kubrow was in T3.

Need to test if nothing is fixed due some patches, but I doubt it...

 

 

----Conclution----

Want to see the conclution? Check the spoiler, wich i highly doupt you will, consider you are busy being

a space pirate, blowing suff up. But then again, you are reading this so, it might mean something.

 

Spoiler

 

So, what is the conclution of these bugs? They are anyoing, game-breaking and kills the fun out of stealth.

When i do stealth, i have to constantly fear about ALL these bugs and gltiches can happen. Its unconfortable.

 

But what is the worst part? DE certainly doenst want to fix this, i tell you that much. 17 major updates in and close to 18  and yet, they have no even considered fixing this. So, why not? Its simple really.

 

Due to the majority of players are Space Pirates that want more loot, more explosions, more power, they dont see a reason

of fixing the Stealth and Ai unless it somehow affects the typical gameplay style that palyers use (Or Conclave).

The Term space ninja has never been so missunderstod. The lore and theme of warframe, atleast to my knowledge, are about techno-organic ninjas that stealthy assassinate important targets, infiltrate and steal important data from enemy factions to keep balance, doing is swiftly and silently. But now, The Tenno, are space pirates that raid, destroy and plunder factions with loud weaponry and dresses in gleaming atire that makes the sun look dark.

 

While each player has their own style, why are we so restricted? If you want to blast a planet away with your 1 hit kill vectis or whatever, thats fine, thats your style, but some of us want to take time, be stealthy, observe our prey from above, either killing them silently, or by mercy, avoiding their confrontation.

 

But due to how painfully broken the Ai and Stealth system is, that is not possible, and the only way as of now,

to go stealth, is to keep all these problems in your mind and do workarounds, and that ruins stealth.

 

But then again, its not that anyone reads this message (Or this thread for that matter), but i guess its my way of, venting out frustration.

 

But anyone from DE, who does read this, well, congratulations, you do read threads afterall taht really do require your attention, but whenever you want to fix this or not, thats not up to me to decide.

I will keep posting this until this get fixed, someday.

 

TL:DR=No! Go back up there you lazy skom. Im not going to be mercyful on you. Now go back up and read waht i have to say.

 

---

Below is the old post regarding a single problem before i converted the thread into a more universal, stealth and ai bug thread.

----

As the title says, there is one bug that seems to happen at complete random, and not very often, but it is frustrating when it happens. Unlike most stealth players, i tend to use non-cloaker frames for extra challange (Sometimes i tend to avoid killing enemies for some more challange), and this bug can be quite bad really.

 

Here is what happens, you managed to get around the enemy base or ship without anyone noticing, no sound made from your weapons (All might be silent or never fired), no alarms have been activated or anything.

But then, out of nowhere, this Grineer or Coprus knows your existance and goes into cover or activate the alarms (Activating the alarm is a more rare thing to happen but its there).

 

Anyone else experience this? (to all you non-cloaker stealth people out there).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Had this happen numerous times in stealth runs.

 

What I know is if one enemy falls to far behind in the map, he is warped to a tile further ahead so you don't have to backtrack to get him. My guess is that is there was one who was aware of your presence (thanks to the game's crappy detection system) then got left behind as you moved ahead, warping to a tile ahead later on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This should be fixed once stealth is reworked I hope. For now yeah, i dislike that 2/3 of the map is immediately alerted when one enemy spots you briefly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I play two types of stealth.

The First:

Stealth as usual, silent take downs, silent weapons.

The Second:

Run in guns blazing and kill everything before they hit the alarms

 

I've never had this issue, but I can see how this would be frustrating, with both types.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This should be fixed once stealth is reworked I hope. For now yeah, i dislike that 2/3 of the map is immediately alerted when one enemy spots you briefly.

This is the most annoying part of it all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I did many more missions again in stealth (not with loki or Ash), and the same problem happens again.

This is a frustrating problem, and doenst make sense in a logical sense at all.

 

Please DE, consider fixing this. Not everyone uses Loki or Ash for stealth.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Another update. It seems that The Drakk Master and his pets are the ones that suffers from this problem the most, as they, out of nowhere, knows exacly where i am, but at the same time, unlike other enemies on the map, they dont seem to alert the other enemeis of my existance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You might hate me for this but i would like to see a video of this.

 

 

 

Another update. It seems that The Drakk Master and his pets are the ones that suffers from this problem the most, as they, out of nowhere, knows exacly where i am, but at the same time, unlike other enemies on the map, they dont seem to alert the other enemeis of my existance.

The Dark Master can still detect you when he is like 5 walls away.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You might hate me for this but i would like to see a video of this.

 

 

 

The Dark Master can still detect you when he is like 5 walls away.

Hate is such a strong word, and i wouldnt hate you.

As of now, i currently dont have any program that can record footage perfectly, and fraps is taking way to much memory on the HDD.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, AI is still the worst part of this game, sometimes enemies didn't see me, when i staying right before them, and sometimes they see me through whole map.., looks like they also "can see" you when game spawn them, have no idea how it works, so if you doing all in stealth, they still spawning alerted, and if you triggered alarm, they can appears unalerted...

 

About, Drakk Mater and his dogs (pigs?), they running to my position from everywhere, even if they cann't know where I'm... So empty room, no one didn't see me yet (also I dind't see any enemy), and this Drakk runs in, precisely knowing where I'm (also some MOAs and ospreys can do the same thing, and I'm silent about infected), they smell you or something?..

 

Last one, Loki and Ash have same problem, enemy still see them, even when they don't, I mean, if you not permanently invisible, enemy will come to your last position, where you were in half second to recast invisibility...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, AI is still the worst part of this game, sometimes enemies didn't see me, when i staying right before them, and sometimes they see me through whole map.., looks like they also "can see" you when game spawn them, have no idea how it works, so if you doing all in stealth, they still spawning alerted, and if you triggered alarm, they can appears unalerted...

 

About, Drakk Mater and his dogs (pigs?), they running to my position from everywhere, even if they cann't know where I'm... So empty room, no one didn't see me yet (also I dind't see any enemy), and this Drakk runs in, precisely knowing where I'm (also some MOAs and ospreys can do the same thing, and I'm silent about infected), they smell you or something?..

 

Last one, Loki and Ash have same problem, enemy still see them, even when they don't, I mean, if you not permanently invisible, enemy will come to your last position, where you were in half second to recast invisibility...

If Loki and Ash have this problem, then i guess this problem will be fixed since everyone loves those 2 frames.

Also, i think they are more pigs than dogs, as they have tusks and sound like pigs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Dark Master can still detect you when he is like 5 walls away.

...and invisible. It seems he can at least "know" where Loki is, not sure about Ash. Won't attack, but will run into the room and run around like a headless chicken.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

...and invisible. It seems he can at least "know" where Loki is, not sure about Ash. Won't attack, but will run into the room and run around like a headless chicken.

It would make if the dogs or pigs or whatever, can sense you, but only if you are close enough, cloaked or uncloaked, like a couple of meeters away, not across the galaxy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 

Yes, AI is still the worst part of this game, sometimes enemies didn't see me, when i staying right before them, and sometimes they see me through whole map.., looks like they also "can see" you when game spawn them, have no idea how it works, so if you doing all in stealth, they still spawning alerted, and if you triggered alarm, they can appears unalerted...

 

About, Drakk Mater and his dogs (pigs?), they running to my position from everywhere, even if they cann't know where I'm... So empty room, no one didn't see me yet (also I dind't see any enemy), and this Drakk runs in, precisely knowing where I'm (also some MOAs and ospreys can do the same thing, and I'm silent about infected), they smell you or something?..

 

Last one, Loki and Ash have same problem, enemy still see them, even when they don't, I mean, if you not permanently invisible, enemy will come to your last position, where you were in half second to recast invisibility...

 

 

Another update. It seems that The Drakk Master and his pets are the ones that suffers from this problem the most, as they, out of nowhere, knows exacly where i am, but at the same time, unlike other enemies on the map, they dont seem to alert the other enemeis of my existance.

 

I play almost exclusively as Loki and I've had enemies look right at me WHILE I'm invisible, then run directly to the console. They never fire on me, but they immediately alert the entire room to rush to the panels and activate the alert. And sometimes, they won't notice me but the Drakk will rush me, they'll run into me, and the Drakk Master will recognise me as being there and, ohoho, the same situation occurs.

 

And another thing: whether my kubrow attacks them or not, they immediately open fire on her while she's invisible. She can be standing there, not doing a thing, and they'll go full-auto on her.

 

This is definitely a problem and needs to be fixed, because this is affecting every frame, and for no easily-verified reason. And, ya know...if I didn't care about being detected and only cared about keeping alarms off, I'd run as Nova or Mirage. This is really broken at the moment.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 
 

 

 

I play almost exclusively as Loki and I've had enemies look right at me WHILE I'm invisible, then run directly to the console. They never fire on me, but they immediately alert the entire room to rush to the panels and activate the alert. And sometimes, they won't notice me but the Drakk will rush me, they'll run into me, and the Drakk Master will recognise me as being there and, ohoho, the same situation occurs.

 

And another thing: whether my kubrow attacks them or not, they immediately open fire on her while she's invisible. She can be standing there, not doing a thing, and they'll go full-auto on her.

 

This is definitely a problem and needs to be fixed, because this is affecting every frame, and for no easily-verified reason. And, ya know...if I didn't care about being detected and only cared about keeping alarms off, I'd run as Nova or Mirage. This is really broken at the moment.

 

That means that this is a bigger problem than i thought. 

 

If even loki and Ash and the cloakign Kubrow have this problem, this NEED to be fixed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

+1 to this. But just so you know, this problem has been around for a long time. Stealth has been weird and buggy and broken for ages and DE have done nothing about it.

 

But yeah, the problem is enormous with the Drahk Master and his drahk. In almost every stealth mission I do I get instantly detected by the Drahk and their master. Of course, there's nothing suspicious to an average grineer soldier about one of his allies running hurriedly to the (unknown) location of a known Tenno. 

 

Absolutely nothing at all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The worst part is they mess up your stealth streaks too. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

+1 to this. But just so you know, this problem has been around for a long time. Stealth has been weird and buggy and broken for ages and DE have done nothing about it.

 

That means that this is a bigger problem than i thought. 

 

 

This (these) problem was there all time, because AI is biggest problem, and It required fully rework.
Currently AI is completely senseless ("strange" enemies' behavior)... Well, yes, since its a beta, DE didn't pay attention yet, they made it simply that something was, something work... this is not easy, far from easy, yes, but still, that are not enough to give a good gameplay experience, which is main goal of game AI...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

This (these) problem was there all time, because AI is biggest problem, and It required fully rework.
Currently AI is completely senseless ("strange" enemies' behavior)... Well, yes, since its a beta, DE didn't pay attention yet, they made it simply that something was, something work... this is not easy, far from easy, yes, but still, that are not enough to give a good gameplay experience, which is main goal of game AI...

 

Here is the thing, The Ai in Dark Sector The game was alot more advanced, so why not use that base code?

But then again, the diffrence between the games is quite big, and converting the DS code to the WF one is probaly alot more work than doing a rework from scratch.

 

They have to rework the Ai at some point.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Another update. It seems that The Drakk Master and his pets are the ones that suffers from this problem the most, as they, out of nowhere, knows exacly where i am, but at the same time, unlike other enemies on the map, they dont seem to alert the other enemeis of my existance.

 

I've had his pets spot me at the start of a mission but I think nothing of it as he doesn't seem to auto-alert anyone else. I've even killed the dude with his corpse flying past an Elite Lancer's FACE, and nobody gave a damn. Then again death screams seem to be silent to the AI, and I've actually killed several people in quick succession before with a basic Lancer still in patrol mode, at least 3 bodies clearly visible in front of him.

 

I saved him for last. The brave die last, if at all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Another update.

 

Seems that after a minute or so, 1 or 2 enemeis knows of your existance, and will either sound the alarm, or go right at you to attack you, knowing your exact, pixel perfect location.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's simple.

 

RNGesus knows you're there. RNGesus is always watching. You can never escape the eye of RNGesus... except sometimes, when you roll It's terrible eyes shut for a few brief moments.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, I can confirm that Drahks can locate Ash even when he's invisible, and follow any warframe through 90 different rooms. I'm kind of ok with that though, since they have a sense of smell. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, I can confirm that Drahks can locate Ash even when he's invisible, and follow any warframe through 90 different rooms. I'm kind of ok with that though, since they have a sense of smell. 

That makes sense atleast, but knowing your exact position from a galaxy far far away is just stupid.

Other enemies that yours your existance is even worse.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dhraks and their Masters are seemingly psychic, I swear these guys just come out of nowhere despite not a single other enemy being aware of your presence. Thankfully they're melee enemies so they can usually be dealt with silently and without alerting anyone else, but it's still pretty annoying.

 

Otherwise it doesn't seem to occur with most other enemies, but just recently I had a Scorpion suddenly know where I was for no reason whatsoever, knocking me down while some other Grineer knew to ring up the alarm through the power of telepathy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...