The All Or Nothing Nature Of Alerts Is A Problem That Needs To Be Addressed

[PhiZero]

http://news.medill.northwestern.edu/chicago/news.aspx?id=176870

 

That link doesn't define addiction, but it goes into "why" people are attracted to music on a neurological level. An addiction is usually defined as "the inability to willingly stop a specific action despite it doing bodily or psychological harm." So if you think about it, the links provided by Bakim0n0 suggest that gaming can become a addiction as the subjects died from the inability to stop themselves, even when their body was on the brink of death. Can it be unhealthy for someone to expect so much from Warframe wanting the free content to keep on coming? yes. Will they experience bodily harm from extended periods of playing Warframe to grind to their goal? yes. So on paper it looks like a addiction, but don't mistake constructive criticism and feedback as a sign of addiction.

 

Edit: Now that I'm looking at the Glaive and Vauban issues from a new prespective, it's starting to look like putting more items in the alert system is possibly the best course of action, for the health of both the company AND the customers.

Edited May 16, 2013 by SagamiYusuke

[Gekker]

I know this might seem like I'm just throwing a one-liner and trying to add nothing to the topic, as people are wont to judge that one that does not write tenths of paragraphs to make a point is not putting effort into their content and/or has nothing relevant to say.

 

But, and this is a big but : have any of you ever considered the idea that throwing certain items (mostly the new warframe parts/BP) into the ? alert pool might merely be a placeholder until it can be properly added into a new planet?

 

 

I believe if this is the case this would have been mentioned. But thats just as much speculation as expecting his availability to change.

 

Anyway, like I said, Vauban is not the reason why people complain about the Alert Reward system. Its just another reason.

 

[Argoms]

Edit: Now that I'm looking at the Glaive and Vauban issues from a new prespective, it's starting to look like putting more items in the alert system is possibly the best course of action, for the health of both the company AND the customers.

Care to share this perspective?

[PhiZero]

Care to share this perspective?

 

Sorry, was off in my own little world while I was typing that edit.

 

For the company it makes the impatient players pay for the reward, which in turn keeps the company alive and funds further development on the game.

 

For the customer it adds one more thing to the list that a player can't grind for, so on the release day of the warframe/weapon the customer can't grind for twelve hours for all the blueprints, which they would get that through cutting into their eating habits, sleep, exercise schedules, deadlines, homework, studying and much more.

 

If more items are added to a specific drop location such as a boss mission, it would only encourage a group of customers to sacrifice vital activities to obtain it on the release date. With it in the alert system they are unable to grind it out, and if they cant wait they can purchase it to support the company and free up some time they would have otherwise wasted.

 

Edit: To summarize it, DE can still make a profit off a minority of players while protecting them from a possible addiction. A win win situation.

Edited May 16, 2013 by SagamiYusuke

[Bakim0n0]

Sorry, was off in my own little world while I was typing that edit.

 

For the company it makes the impatient players pay for the reward, which in turn keeps the company alive and funds further development on the game.

 

For the customer it adds one more thing to the list that a player can't grind for, so on the release day of the warframe/weapon the customer can't grind for twelve hours for all the blueprints, which they would get that through cutting into their eating habits, sleep, exercise schedules, deadlines, homework, studying and much more.

 

If more items are added to a specific drop location such as a boss mission, it would only encourage a group of customers to sacrifice vital activities to obtain it on the release date. With it in the alert system they are unable to grind it out, and if they cant wait they can purchase it to support the company and free up some time they would have otherwise wasted.

 

Edit: To summarize it, DE can still make a profit off a minority of players while protecting them from a possible addiction. A win win situation.

Pretty much what I've felt the whole time just I never said it. This touches on directly why I have no problems with the alert system despite not really loving it... it's a happy medium for several reasons... encouraging purchases, discouraging binge playing, making an alternative reward that is luck based over time progression.

[SoaringEagle]

Sorry, was off in my own little world while I was typing that edit.

 

For the company it makes the impatient players pay for the reward, which in turn keeps the company alive and funds further development on the game.

 

For the customer it adds one more thing to the list that a player can't grind for, so on the release day of the warframe/weapon the customer can't grind for twelve hours for all the blueprints, which they would get that through cutting into their eating habits, sleep, exercise schedules, deadlines, homework, studying and much more.

 

If more items are added to a specific drop location such as a boss mission, it would only encourage a group of customers to sacrifice vital activities to obtain it on the release date. With it in the alert system they are unable to grind it out, and if they cant wait they can purchase it to support the company and free up some time they would have otherwise wasted.

 

Edit: To summarize it, DE can still make a profit off a minority of players while protecting them from a possible addiction. A win win situation.

 

Actually, the current system rewards players who are addicted, those that neglect work and sleep and other important activities, to be here at a randomly generated time to obtain the rewards.

 

Time is the issue here, and I've seen most legitimate arguments come from people who are involved in other life activities which would prevent them from participating at specific times of the day.

 

Why should those who are involved in other life activities be barred from rewards while those that neglect them are rewarded?

[PhiZero]

Actually, the current system rewards players who are addicted, those that neglect work and sleep and other important activities, to be here at a randomly generated time to obtain the rewards.

 

Time is the issue here, and I've seen most legitimate arguments come from people who are involved in other life activities which would prevent them from participating at specific times of the day.

 

Why should those who are involved in other life activities be barred from rewards while those that neglect them are rewarded?

 

Sometimes in order to protect a person from themself, you have to step on someone else's wishes. In that case, our desire to have a more easily accessible reward would also fuel their addiction even further. If you add free content bit by bit, on the small scale it won't look like its doing damage, where in the big picture/long term its doing more harm than good. Denying everyone the content through luck can save them two hours per day hunting a item, which can add up to ten hours saved, then fifty and so on. Will they do something productive and/or healthy in that time saved? Probably not, but its a gamble worth taking.

 

Edit:While the time is random, it can be used to discourage them from waiting and go to sleep. There will be a few that will refuse to sleep, but that would be a even smaller portion of the said minority of "addicts." So part of the system works, but it doesn't target the stubborn ones.

Edited May 16, 2013 by SagamiYusuke

[SoaringEagle]

Sometimes in order to protect a person from themself, you have to step on someone else's wishes. In that case, our desire to have a more easily accessible reward would also fuel their addiction even further. If you add free content bit by bit, on the small scale it won't look like its doing damage, where in the big picture/long term its doing more harm than good. Denying everyone the content through luck can save them two hours per day hunting a item, which can add up to ten hours saved, then fifty and so on. Will they do something productive and/or healthy in that time saved? Probably not, but its a gamble worth taking.

 

Edit:While the time is random, it can be used to discourage them from waiting and go to sleep. There will be a few that will refuse to sleep, but that would be a even smaller portion of the said minority of "addicts." So part of the system works, but it doesn't target the stubborn ones.

 

Understand, I have none to blame but myself for my faults, and this applies to everyone else, too.

 

Let's try to create a game not based on another person's personal issues, but instead a fun game for everyone to enjoy.

 

So I don't leave you without an example, think about someone who is eating too much. Who is to blame? The farmer, the truck driver, the cook, the servant, or the one picking up the food from the plate and eating it?

[GraalOhOtonami]

Well, some drug addicts feel like they'll die without a fix, so I do see your point on some players being a bit "extreme." Though I do wonder if anyone has researched anything on whether or not video game addiction is a thing. If not, I just might do a paper on it when I get around to taking Sociology next quarter.

Oddly enough, my psychology teacher recently had his master's project approved for publishing, and that's on videogame addiction, so yeah, look for a study by Hull et al.

[PhiZero]

Understand, I have none to blame but myself for my faults, and this applies to everyone else, too.

 

Let's try to create a game not based on another person's personal issues, but instead a fun game for everyone to enjoy.

 

So I don't leave you without an example, think about someone who is eating too much. Who is to blame? The farmer, the truck driver, the cook, the servant, or the one picking up the food from the plate and eating it?

 

Why not create a fun game that also takes into consideration personal issues of their players? It isn't impossible to have both.

 

In League of Legends there is a color blind mode for those that are color blind. Was it a improvement on the game for all players and/or made some more money for riot games? No, but it was a very generous thing for them to create, as it showed the community that they cared for the minority.

 

Oddly enough, my psychology teacher recently had his master's project approved for publishing, and that's on videogame addiction, so yeah, look for a study by Hull et al.

 

I'll keep an eye out for it.

Edited May 16, 2013 by SagamiYusuke

[JerryMouse13]

You do realize, that as more, and more items are added to alerts, that the statistical probability that the reward will be what you want decreases greatly. More frequent '?'  alerts is something that I think everyone can get behind, but giving away only partial rewards means that you're bringing back the initial problem of large amounts of RNG.

[SoaringEagle]

In League of Legends there is a color blind mode for those that are color blind. Was it a improvement on the game for all players and/or made some more money for riot games? No, but it was a very generous thing for them to create, as it showed the community that they cared for the minority.

 

You are not at fault if you are color blind.

 

To be at fault means you have done something wrong, you've made a choice in a position you have control over. Nobody gets to choose if they are color blind, that is out of our control.

[PhiZero]

You are not at fault if you are color blind.

 

To be at fault means you have done something wrong, you've made a choice in a position you have control over. Nobody gets to choose if they are color blind, that is out of our control.

 

After reading this post, I have the feeling that I missed the point of your previous post entirely. Were you trying to say something along the lines of a morphine addict isn't at fault for his addictions, and neither is the producer of the morphine? As from the stories I've heard, they never knew they were addicted to it until they got their first taste of morphine from a surgical procedure. Correct me if I'm missing the point again by a mile again.

 

Edit: Going to call it a night, I'll check back in the afternoon.

Edited May 16, 2013 by SagamiYusuke

[Venarge]

Oh hey, another one complaining about the alert system. Its not like this was already addressed on the gameplay section. There is no need to spam every section with this....

 

And unable to progress? Thats simply not true. You can do even high level missions without super charged gear....

[HvcTerr]

You do realize, that as more, and more items are added to alerts, that the statistical probability that the reward will be what you want decreases greatly. 

 

That's not a big problem. As new and exciting items are rotated into the alerts, take old ones out and make them credit-buyable.

[f3llyn]

I think we should get back downvotes only for threads like this.. again and again complaints about the same thing only because people don't understand the simplicity between "be lucky, play much or pay".

 

Really, I will never understand why you guys are not happy that you even CAN get all things without platinum.

 

That's the new best idea. For 1 month, ALL new warframes and weapons should be platinum only and then become available through alerts.

 

So you're against improving the game for the better? How strange. The OP is about 100x more constructive than your post, and ironically mine. If any post deserves a down vote it would be yours.

Edited May 16, 2013 by f3llyn

[Judopunch]

My suggestion in the feedback section. Please comment.

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/45200-idea-completing-an-alert-mission-gives-intel-on-enemy-activity/

[Sonicbullitt]

Being out of the house from 6am to 6pm really doesn't help when I'm trying to get either a weapon or warframe BP, so yeah, I support the structure suggested here, but at the same time, I think it's a little convoluted (or it may be the fact I've been up for 20 hours), so allow me to suggest my own:

Alert Chips, a resource gained from any ? much like a small resource drop of 10-20, perhaps less.

In conjunction with this, in the Market, you have the Alert store, where you can exchange these chips for a random artifact, weapon, helmet or Warframe BP, with costs being calculated to make it as rare to get an item, but people can choose to target the blueprints etc. that they actually want, and work towards the goal, rather than leaving it to blind fate.

This ^^^ It's a very good idea and could actually work you would even have a reason to do credit only alerts i't also gives you something to work for however the prices must be fair and not ridiculous but the "Alert chips"  should also be fair we should not get like loads from one alert other then that I like this idea sounds interesting. 

Edited May 16, 2013 by Sonicbullitt

[SoaringEagle]

SagamiYusuke, on 15 May 2013 - 11:51 PM, said:

After reading this post, I have the feeling that I missed the point of your previous post entirely. Were you trying to say something along the lines of a morphine addict isn't at fault for his addictions, and neither is the producer of the morphine? As from the stories I've heard, they never knew they were addicted to it until they got their first taste of morphine from a surgical procedure. Correct me if I'm missing the point again by a mile again.

Edit: Going to call it a night, I'll check back in the afternoon.

Ok, I'll answer my previous post example, address your post, and also add another example to reaffirm that it's not the game with the problem, it's the person, and also that the development should not be based on these people with their personal issues. A person doing good is not at fault for another person's evil.

Now, my last question asked who is to blame for the overeating of the one guy. Is it the farmer, the truck driver, the cook, the servant, or the guy picking up the food from his plate? The answer is the guy picking up the food from his plate. Why? He is the one who has the control of what is being put into his mouth. Only he can stop himself.

Your example is different. We're talking about personal choices. From what I understand he has no choice but to take the drug to live through the surgery. No choice, not relevant.

For my last example we have a kitchen knife manufacturer. (I'm sure many of you can guess where this is going.) So, the manufacturer sells his knives in 10-piece sets. Long story short, a fellow buys one of his sets, takes one of the knives, stabs and murders somebody with the knife. The one to blame for the murder is the man, not the knife, and not the manufacturer. The man was the one who committed an evil act, not the knife, and not the manufacturer. The manufacturer is making a tool for a purpose, and the murderer took the tool and misused it for another evil purpose.

Finally, I'll compare the last example to Warframe:

Manufacturer = Developers (DE)

Knife = Warframe (game)

Murderer = addicted gamer

The manufacturer doesn't stop making knives because someone took them and misused them for an evil purpose. Likewise, DE should not stop improving their game, because neither they, nor I, nor anybody else, has the power to save a person from themselves, except for the one who is at fault. We have no control over what those who are to blame choose to do.

Hence the phrase: You have no one to blame but yourself.

[Unknown924]

You do realize, that as more, and more items are added to alerts, that the statistical probability that the reward will be what you want decreases greatly. More frequent '?' alerts is something that I think everyone can get behind, but giving away only partial rewards means that you're bringing back the initial problem of large amounts of RNG.

That is exactly the problem that using a universal alert material would solve. The idea is not giving out a reward that says: 1/4 of x blueprint, get 3 more parts of the same one. It is: you got one universal blueprint fragment, you may save up to get the item you want. This allows item rarity in the current system to be reflected in the amount of fragments an item uses. It also allows DE to make items that cost more platinum harder to get while still letting free players work towards them slowly.

I edited the first post with the idea of giving items a timed platinum exclusive period with discount and Gekker's well thought out post:https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/45104-the-all-or-nothing-nature-of-alerts-is-a-problem-that-needs-to-be-addressed/page-3#entry451660

[Argoms]

Sorry, was off in my own little world while I was typing that edit.

 

For the company it makes the impatient players pay for the reward, which in turn keeps the company alive and funds further development on the game.

 

For the customer it adds one more thing to the list that a player can't grind for, so on the release day of the warframe/weapon the customer can't grind for twelve hours for all the blueprints, which they would get that through cutting into their eating habits, sleep, exercise schedules, deadlines, homework, studying and much more.

 

If more items are added to a specific drop location such as a boss mission, it would only encourage a group of customers to sacrifice vital activities to obtain it on the release date. With it in the alert system they are unable to grind it out, and if they cant wait they can purchase it to support the company and free up some time they would have otherwise wasted.

 

Edit: To summarize it, DE can still make a profit off a minority of players while protecting them from a possible addiction. A win win situation.

Your only argument in favor of this seems to be that it reduces the chances of addiction. But does it? The current system rewards a willingness to drop everything the moment that an alert pops up. These are the same people who you're trying to "save" by removing grind.

 

DE has stated that they don't want players to buy full frames/weapons from the market because it takes away from the game. They also charge the price of a full game for each one, so it's very unlikely that many people will ever buy these things. If their goal is to make money from frame/weapon sales, they'd be a lot cheaper (20+ dollars for certain frames? seriously?)

 

 

What happened to deep, challenging gameplay? Should we forget about anything that requires either a high level of skill or time investment because it has the potential to be addictive to a very, very small portion of the population? If we made levels genuinely more difficult (not just turning enemies into bullet sponges), you could apply this argument to the fact that people may spend large amounts of time trying to get better at the game.

 

Boss grinding is not a good way to introduce content, I agree. However, making new content available through pure luck or paying the price of a full, award-winning indie game isn't going to be good for customer loyalty.

[Thypari2013]

 

I think the system of random rewards is a good solution.

DE could also address the problem of too easy to obtain and shift the current disappointment.

 

A suggestion would be:

- Make all rewards random for every player.

- Tune the alerts to be like the tutorial, but with multiple people. Everyone gets a finished frame with specific rank and equipment and then the team has to do a mission. If they fail (1member dies), they can't do it again.

- Give every player the same 6 alerts per day, specified on rank and weapon rank. 4 Alerts with only credits and 2 with additional random reward. Which can be done 24h until new ones replace the old ones.

 

Example:

1. Alert: Rescue

Random warframe rank 8, all 4 abilities

Random primary and secondary weapon rank 7

Random melee rank 5

Corpus enemy Level: 7-12

Reward: 2300 credits + ?

 

2. Alert: Extinction

Random warframe rank 26, only ability 1

Random primary and secondary weapon rank 5

Random melee rank 27

Invested enemy Level: 26-29

Reward: 2900 credits + ?

 

3. Alert: Sabotage

Random warframe rank 16, only ability 2 & 3

Random primary rank 6 and secondary weapon rank 17

Grinneer enemy Level: 15-17

Reward: 4800 credits

 

4.....

 

Pro:

- Disappointment shifted from "couldn't attend" to own / team failure during an alert.

- Disappointment reduced because you have a chance to solve them every day.

- Independent from own progress, because you use predefined warframes. This also is a good testing scenario because you can play weapons / frames you haven't used before.

- Reward through challenging missions and skill instead of purely time to attend.

- Big fun factor because of the randomly predefined warframes and the challenges, which come with them.

 

Con:

- Implementation time

- Could be frustrating if you fail a mission because of player x (although it is always a team effort).

 

Edited May 16, 2013 by Thypari2013

[Quetzhal]

If I am to be perfectly honest, I'd love for blueprints to be awarded in a variety of ways other than just alerts and grinding bosses. A definite blueprint drop from a huge, exceptionally tough boss fight, finding the blueprints hidden within various secret areas, having to solve perhaps even cooperative puzzles...

It's unlikely that that will come to pass, though.

More on topic, I do like the suggestions presented in the OP. The thing is, I actually think there's nothing wrong with the alert system as long as it's being used to introduce largely cosmetic items. It's a cool way to give free players things that normally wouldn't be given to them - a great surprise if they log on at the right time. It's when it's used to introduce new things that I wince. I don't think the alert system is suitable for that.

[Argoms]

More ways to get stuff is nice, but it's almost unanimously agreed that a drop from bosses is preferable to alerts unless another third option is added.

[Falanin]

The thing is, as a method of getting people to play the game, the alert system is amazing.  Variable interval, variable reward is a powerful method of generating addiction.

 

I like the idea of having lesser rewards, between whole items (which are fricking sweet) and credits (only bother if you're broke).  However, having them be part of the alert system has a couple of problems for me.

 

1.  Make the fragments too easy to get, and you destroy the addictive nature of the alert system.

 

2.  Grinding your way to new weapons/frames/artifacts one fragment at a time doesn't feel thematically right for an ALERT.

 

 

I love the idea of the fragments.  However, to me, it sounds more like you're reverse-engineering Grineer tech, or doing experiments on how to use an Orokin Artifact.  As such, I'd make these fragments available through a series of 1/daily missions.  Perhaps a new mission type where Lotus runs you through some arbitrary tests in VR, or something.  Each mission has a high but not guaranteed chance to drop a fragment of X type, and you could do Y of these research missions per day. (values for X and Y to be determined by dev maths)   

 

This setup would keep the Alert system lottery from getting diluted by a bunch of other stuff, and it seems to fit a bit better with the more grind-y nature of gathering all the bits to make the coolthing.

Edited May 16, 2013 by Falanin