Blind Behaviors

[SilverZs]

~snip~

I wouldn't go so far as to say it 'holds no value' in regards to test size.

 

I think you forgot to read the part where Glen said: "I ran out of time".

This was a quick initial pass Glen was able to do in a very, very limited time frame. He tweaked AI behaviors, he didn't influence the abilities at all.

 

Sure, I don't think this is the appropriate 'final form' Radial Blind needs to take (or AI behaviors), but its definitely a step in the right direction.

It would be nice to see friendly fire turned on, blinded enemies be given a 'terror' state for the first few seconds after blind takes effect (OMG I'm blind! ~runs into the wall facefirst, falls on back~)... but to accomplish this, its going to take a more significant amount of time. A lot. Then if we transition into 'DE time', even longer. Because hotfixes.

 

But regardless, embrace the beginning, and provide suggestions as where to take this and go further, instead of being negative Nancy's.

[GratuitousLurking]

Finally, comboing a Blindcalibur and Silence Banshee will make the ultimate in stealth!

[4MostlyHarmless2]

-snip-

Illogical? If you're under fire, and you can't see the enemy, but you can hear where the gunshots are coming from, isn't it more logical to actually fire at where the sound of gunshots is coming from instead of not firing at all? Won't you at least try to eliminate the threat rather than let it possibly kill you? I don't think that the changes being made here are illogical in any way. 

Also, if you blind the enemies and your teammates keep firing with unsilenced weapons, then you could also do the smarter thing and try not to stay between your teammates and your enemies. Get out of the way, go behind the enemy, or whatever. If you want to melee but your teammates keep on firing, just move around them and melee the enemies from where they aren't firing at. 

 

Glen also mentioned and gave video evidence that the enemies were being tweaked to not run for cover anymore as they usually do. If you watch the videos, they slow down to a cautious walk and do not fire at anything while doing so, meaning they're in an alert state but do not know where you are unless you betray your position via gunshot. 

I support this addition, it makes Radial Blind more immersive and tactical as a power. 

[CTanGod]

Illogical? If you're under fire, and you can't see the enemy, but you can hear where the gunshots are coming from, isn't it more logical to actually fire at where the sound of gunshots is coming from instead of not firing at all? Won't you at least try to eliminate the threat rather than let it possibly kill you? I don't think that the changes being made here are illogical in any way. 

Also, if you blind the enemies and your teammates keep firing with unsilenced weapons, then you could also do the smarter thing and try not to stay between your teammates and your enemies. Get out of the way, go behind the enemy, or whatever. If you want to melee but your teammates keep on firing, just move around them and melee the enemies from where they aren't firing at. 

 

Glen also mentioned and gave video evidence that the enemies were being tweaked to not run for cover anymore as they usually do. If you watch the videos, they slow down to a cautious walk and do not fire at anything while doing so, meaning they're in an alert state but do not know where you are unless you betray your position via gunshot. 

I support this addition, it makes Radial Blind more immersive and tactical as a power. 

For you first argument: logically the most reasonable thing to do when blind is to try and run or gruide yourself by something to get away not fire everything you had at the sound source. Also realistically you wouldn't be want fire your guns at all if you can't see since you might injure yourself or your friends.

 

For your second: Tell that to Bombards and Napalms and Tar Moas. Also why should an ability specifically design as a melee steroid to limit my angle of aprouch ? Also why should a crowd control ability's effectiveness be hampered by my teammates rather than be capitalized upon ? (right now enemies do not do friendly fire so it's pointless to try and make them shoot each other). Also any enemy that will enter the room and fire or if an enemy in another room will fire all hell with break loose in the room where I blinded enemies cause now every fart triggers them to unload everything they got in the general direction of that sound.

 

For your third: Glen said they wouldn't move, yet they still move, albeit slightly, but they still move.

 

Is immersion and "tactical options" worth the price of completly nerfing the blind status? Have you used Excalibur extensively enough to understand how fundamental it is to Excalibur? No?

 

EDIT: You know what ? I'm done arguing, I've been defending Excalibur since before U15 and now it's just getting pointless since I feel like it's not only the community that's against Excalibur but it's also DE. I don't care about the rework since none of the flashy things about it can ever compensate for the nerf of Radial Blind. I'm done. Now I'll just have to sit back and find the next best frame for melee and CC. I just hope DE will realise that there are better things to do than tamper with Excalibur and instead nerf the things that deserve them.

Edited May 11, 2015 by CTanGod

[SuperheroJack]

Illogical? If you're under fire, and you can't see the enemy, but you can hear where the gunshots are coming from, isn't it more logical to actually fire at where the sound of gunshots is coming from instead of not firing at all? Won't you at least try to eliminate the threat rather than let it possibly kill you? I don't think that the changes being made here are illogical in any way. 

 

You surely didn't read the post just above it which CTanGod quoted ,did you? 

 

 

Also, if you blind the enemies and your teammates keep firing with unsilenced weapons, then you could also do the smarter thing and try not to stay between your teammates and your enemies. Get out of the way, go behind the enemy, or whatever. If you want to melee but your teammates keep on firing, just move around them and melee the enemies from where they aren't firing at. 

If you play this game , you would know  that you won't want to do that ! This game is not about hiding from enemy or running away from them as you are suggesting , you need to kill them to end the wave  , you need to kill them to pop life support , overall you need to kill them ! Try killing 2 heavy gunners or Bombards level 50+ in a def mission with your melee , will take forever ,melee arent the best option to kill high level enemies! also once surrounded by 2-3 nulls you could have casted radial blind and concentrated on taking out nulls shield by constantly firing at it , now you are dead meat if you try to do it ! 

If this doesn't make sense , I would suggest, try to give more time on gameplay and not on forums ! Thank you !

[Kahruvel]

"DE Glen can you PLEASE play test this in a T4 Survival with 40 enemy's in one room when your laying down constant fire there all just gonna kill you [....]"

 

First: YOU can please test this and then give good feedback, if you wish. Feel free to use proper punctuation, and sentence structure, if you want anyone to respect you, or even conform to your wishes. DEV time is precious. Players are there to test and give the best feedback possible.

 

Second: If you went into a room with 40 people and they shoot weapons, someone is gonna get hurt. Too bad. Things got more real. Live with it.

 

You do realize you can disagree with someone without being rude, right? Is that something parents teach their kids these days?

[mishmashmarsh]

You do realize you can disagree with someone without being rude, right? Is that something parents teach their kids these days?

 

I was gonna reply to this guys comments, but I can't find it :/ o well.

[MonkeyWaffles]

they should bump into obstacles and fall flat as well. we need more hilarity.

[PHOBIE]

You do realize you can disagree with someone without being rude, right? Is that something parents teach their kids these days?

 

That is correct. And some of us did not receive this teaching. Friendliness is something that I love to express: Alas, when under constriction of time and energy, it seems that the message, when it is asked for, needs to be brought across in the format that is currently possible. In these cases, a candid reaction can happen. Sometimes, as you seem to point out, this appears to be over the top. As I do not strive to hurt players, please accept my sincere apology.

 

From my work description:

"Management priority is to get the job done. Being friendly is an option that is usually preferred, but has nothing to do with the management aspect itself, and is a privilege where it is extended to members. Management will discriminate against toxicity, perpetual stupidity, failure to perform duties or follow escalation steps [...]"

"Management will diligently assess all contributions as well as threats neutrally, without regard for vested interests for any parties, but will not hold responsible for the initiation of any required procedure."

 

EDIT/ADDED:

"Priority in work:

- Members involve themselves in all kinds of different work, according to their specialisation or interest, and to learn the in and outs of the different jobs in [XXX/XXX], according to their desire for education and fun. The more members involve themselves, the more time management has to play with their community; ideally leading to a hands-free environment at all times. The goal is that management has no work and can focus on people relations and friendships."

EDIT/END.

 

I hope I was able to relate understanding, and while I still say that my work has to be efficient to be done at all; I recognize the need for civil discussion, and the need for people not to get hurt.

 

Alliance Architect Quote for this occasion:

"The blind changes make a noticeable difference to gameplay, having just come from a game with a blinding excalibur. Blind is now a much more effective mechanic."

--

 

 

PHOBIE

Edited May 12, 2015 by PHOBIE

[Kontrollo]

Just tested it with a bow: they just stand around and have no idea what hits them. That makes the changes not only more realistic, but also a net buff in my book.

 

These are the best friends of blinding abilities now:

 

inb4 "but muh shotgun".

;)

[MichaelSD]

As an Excalibur main of MR 19 with almost 1500hs invested of which 17-18% of that time done as Excalibur that is exactly how I feel about this change, this simply nerfs Blind into the ground and is also illogical. The first 3 changes are fine. But making enemies shoot based on sound is dumb because it's not only illogical but it also shows how much the devs know about Blind mechanis as a whole.

 

[DE]Glen claimed that enemies not tossing grenades is a buff, which it somewhat is, except enemies would have an increased chance to throw grenades after the initial stun and even then it would be such a small chance for that to happen that it would actually be a miracle to have it happen. This, and the other nerfs on Excalibur, show just how much feedback devs get on Excalibur and also just how much devs know about him and probably other frames.

 

I personatly find these tests to be quite useless since the sample size is so tiny that it holds no value.

 

Also [DE]Glen probably didn't think that these changes won't only affect veteran players but also new players, what will they think when Radial Blind only stuns the enemy for 5 seconds then as they shoot the blind enemies (since they probably won't know Radial Blind is a melee steroid) they'll think the ability does nothing but stun them and offers nothing else.

 

What I also find insulting is the fact that Prism can still blind through walls for the same stats as Radial Blind while using the old Radial Blind mechanics while Radial Blind must be stuck with LoS instead.

 

I also find it insulting that after I've positioned myself in the right spot to blind all the enemies and proceed to melee them it's enought for 1 teammate to fire his gun at them and get me killed cause all hell broke loose and I have no way to stop it from happening other than spamming Radial Blind and Radial Javelin.

 

Also after this change the only way Excalibur will be usefull is if all teammates use silenced weapons or if a Banshee is willing to use Silence to help Radial Blind.

 

Do you see these problems? they are far too many nerfs in a few changes than the very few and minor buffs.

 

Also these changes are quite terrible (except the whole enemies runing towards pods) since blind enemies only run towards the nearest sound source and immediatly stop at the first chest high wall at which they crouch behind and never move. If you shoot guns next to them or bump into them they'll turn in that direction so they still respond to sound and touch but not in a moronic way.

 

The only thing I see in these changes are attempts to make Excalibur's rework ever more appealing in a very unethical practice of marketing.

 

Also these changes are quite unnecessary since there's only 2 frames who can by default Blind enemies and only 1 augment that can blind enemies and 1 of the frames is Excalibur who is considered garbage by most of the community so that's not a problem, most of the community doesn't know Prism can Blind let alone know it can Blind through walls and nobody will use Mesa's Shooting Gallery augment because Shooting Gallery's Mechanics are quite annoying.

 

Yes, I do know blind status is quite op right now, but making it completely useless when there are so few means to apply is just unfair and unneeded.

 

I end my rant here.

 

This! Thank you Sir!

[Mak_Gohae]

Sir, either you do not read or your eyes are blind (hue the pun).

 

It's a BUFF.

 

They'll hit you only if you stand around brain dead blasting your Boltor Primes.

 

Sir, what are you replying to?

My post was not discussing what the new RB does but the silliness the power has gone through.

[Fundance]

Please do not implement these since they would make Blind utterly pointless. I mean, think of the new players, they won't know that silenced weapons and melee attacks won't make them shoot and thus they'll think the ability does absolutely nothing.

 

Please don't do this, you'll simply kill the Blind Status. Instead make enemies respond to normal blind as they would from Radiant Finish Blind, minus the finisher prompts.

Then they should learn. New players are new players for a reason.

[PHOBIE]

While I can see merit in all feedback, I prefer the constructive type that focuses on the aspects this player would like; and this player can present and render valid in favour of the whole userbase. Professionalising feedbacking can be an arduous task, as I, for one, have shown and been shown in many avenues. To take a bigger part in the design metagame is possible though for any interested and learning-focused player, and can lead to little things occuring that we sometimes remember as something we talked about before, and now magically seems to be there.


I would uphold that changes are usually done to enhance the gameplay aspect in more ways than just one. In this way I can see that the blind mechanic now allows for a wider option in gameplay as well as in development; and explicitely the amount of blinds that can come from many more sources than with the design as before. As the AI gets smarter and more structured in response; the immersive aspect of player versus enemy interaction can only grow. What we are seeing is just the beginnning: Any status effects or AI decicisions can - always according to priority, reception and feedback of the community - receive treatments leading to more diverse reactions and FUN.


There are many interactions possible that I can see and that would serve to define, flesh out, and bring to bear; a more immersive gameplay relating  to our player versus enemy engagements. What we are looking at are development processes that do not deserve to simply be commented on as in terms of "buff" or "nerf": Rather, what we see here, are advanced steps towards something that is much bigger:


Emergent Gameplay coming in WARFRAME development, and happening in EXTREME ways, according to what the company and the game stands for. Approaches towards Emergent Narrative paired with procedural, linear and non-linear storytelling, would present as the other side of the equation, and can make for enjoyable social interaction based on player and AI behaviour, and propel this game into the future. Time will tell whether and when such vast projects can be taken on. With social and management features high in demand these days, I think we should honour the risk that DEV took with showing us a sneak-peek about the way and direction that is possible in our games.


For more in-depth explanation, see Wiki, a tragedy prevented, or download the pdf-file from out of the horse's mouth.


Before we need a "too long, did not read"; let me state at this moment that people - for instance, and seen here - stating that another player can refute their approaches at stealth, by triggering random shots in all directions, should be aware that they are talking about the interaction and dependencies that could occur in any game, or, for that matter, at any shoot-out, anywhere. As such, there is a fine line between simulated reality, the fictional aspect of the game, and the playability in all changes that occur; while the balance of the different aspects are in the hands of our designers and directors, who must be entrusted to find the best way for WARFRAME to develop; and this with the explicit help of the player base, in their own interest of producing feedback that helps making the game better for themselves, and, following this; for all others.


Mechanisms asking for gear-dependent and Warframe dependent choices, are also asking for teamplay, planning, social interaction, and by that; simply communication and skill of all players involved. While this may not be seen as an option for everyone; skill-based gameplay options for clan-trained competitive people I feel are hard to deny. Where, in turn, and in actuality, the changes were seen as provably too challenging to a majority of players; joining and finding close friends, as well as educating fellow players on the missions demands, are as much options for players, as it may be seen either logical or prudent for DEV to evolve processes. Again, skill-dependent advantage I can see no fault in. While people may freely claim, this is too hard for them, or for random groups in general, and ask that hard missions should be either rare, telegraph/enforce the gear needed and/or skills needed pre-mission accordingly; I feel that even valid rejection of certain results, must be followed by constructive feedback that serves to suggest a much better solution.


I like to keep in mind that evolving processes usually lifts them to a higher level, so that the adjusting or compassing work that would lead to balanced implementation, would then require both priority and budget of a higher order as well. As the EXTREME aspect in our evolution can require content to be elevated to our players in a state that might need later tweaks; such is always done according to reception, and respecting the best feedback from our players that can be possibly attained. It is easy to see that the better the quality of player feedback is; the easier and also cheaper it must be to strive for completion; and to work on those things that our best players present themselves as to be most interested in, following priority, and respecting the design and performance goals in the overall picture.
 
Thanks for bearing with me, and hope to catch you next time around!


PHOBIE

[4MostlyHarmless2]

Hello! I've been running a few tests recently, and it looks like not all of the changes that were listed here made it into the 16.5 update. I made a topic listing my observations in the "Warframe & Abilities" Feedback section, but unfortunately it got buried quickly.

Considering that the things I observed may also affect the upcoming Excalibur rework, I would like to post a link to the topic I made here. https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/469141-blinded-enemies-mini-rework-feedback/

[(PSN)AllEyezOnThee]

I've got 100% playtime with excal and currently MR16, so when seeing this I got excited - but reading it thoroughly and reading the comments, I'd say a few tweaks are in order if implemented.

- instead of the enemies shooting at sounds made - after initial stun, they all then equip their melee rods (like with Loki's disarm) so in this sense they'll have no worries of shooting their allies and players who shoot their guns can have a good chance to dodge.

- For players worried about being hit to death when meleeing enemies who now all have rods, make it so all affected blinded enemies get 100% stun chanced when only being Melee attacked so there'd be no worries, because in all likelyhood if you're blind and getting slaughtered by steel you won't be able to retaliate. (Any weapons fired the enemy will run towards it and try to hit you).

- Once the blind effect is over and the enemy isn't decapititated by then - they re-equip their weapon to start the carnage. (I'd say reduce their accuracy too since their eyes hurt like hell)!

Edited June 4, 2015 by (PS4)lNoctus

[LightstealKnight]

The problem is that many enemies do not have eyes.
I imagine that radial blind is more like an EMP and sensory overload that messes with their electronic equipment and biology temporarily.

I think it is working fine.

Perhaps just buff players' melee as if they were invisible.

Edited June 14, 2015 by Enemy1

[mishmashmarsh]

The problem is that many enemies do not have eyes.

I imagine that radial blind is more like an EMP and sensory overload that messes with their electronic equipment and biology temporarily.

I think it is working fine.

Perhaps just buff players' melee as if they were invisible.

 

WHAT? when did they remove the enemy's eyes? They all have eyes even the infested do.

[Kthal]

WHAT? when did they remove the enemy's eyes? They all have eyes even the infested do.

 

Well, Moas.

 

And the Corrupted could be arguably blind given they have those lumps of metal on their faces, and are being controlled by a higher mind which also has the Orokin tower sensory systems at its disposal.

 

Inversely, Infested Ancients are covered in eyes, so it would almost make sense if all blind-effects did a little direct damage to them, or make them otherwise more susceptible to blinding.

[LightstealKnight]

WHAT? when did they remove the enemy's eyes? They all have eyes even the infested do.

Augmented Reality Helmets, targeting implants, Robotic sensors, some infested use pheromones to detect enemies, anti-glare and intensity regulating technology... etc.

But it's a game of space ninjas, it doesn't need to make sense.

[ranks21]

this will sux, the whole nature of radial blind if change to this as proposed will means differently than what was advertised. the blind is supposed to work like a flash bang with disorienting features=stun and now your going to take away the stun, why? why are you so adamant about ruining the abilities instead of improving them?

 

I want to enjoy WF like I used to before the whole YOQ fiasco, now with these changes it is getting more and more difficult to find that level of entertainment.

 

 from loot drops to weak weapons and abilities why not just make all the frames even when their powers is used have no effect once and for all and make even a level 1 enemy one shot you and be done with it.

 

 if youre looking for intelligent enemies, then make navy seals or some other game  as this wasn't meant to be that genre of video game.

 

so youre officially taking the stealth away from the frames, I would like to see how you would play a spy or rescue with his ability and these changes and I bet you will never accomplish it>>> here's my 10 plats bet. please post video.

Edited June 15, 2015 by ranks21

[UltimateSpinDash]

this will sux, the whole nature of radial blind if change to this as proposed will means differently than what was advertised. the blind is supposed to work like a flash bang with disorienting features=stun and now your going to take away the stun, why? why are you so adamant about ruining the abilities instead of improving them?

 

I want to enjoy WF like I used to before the whole YOQ fiasco, now with these changes it is getting more and more difficult to find that level of entertainment.

 

 from loot drops to weak weapons and abilities why not just make all the frames even when their powers is used have no effect once and for all and make even a level 1 enemy one shot you and be done with it.

 

 if youre looking for intelligent enemies, then make navy seals or some other game  as this wasn't meant to be that genre of video game.

 

so youre officially taking the stealth away from the frames, I would like to see how you would play a spy or rescue with his ability and these changes and I bet you will never accomplish it>>> here's my 10 plats bet. please post video.

First off, these changes are already long implemented.

 

Care to explain that YOQ is?

 

And the only change I see that may make things more difficult instead of easier is that enemies will try to shoot you based on sound.

HOW ABOUT MOVING? Also, are we in a really late survival / defense that this game isn't supposed to be balanced for or why are you afraid that a blinded enemy could kill you?

[(PSN)OMGITSNUKERXD]

"DE Glen can you PLEASE play test this in a T4 Survival with 40 enemy's in one room when your laying down constant fire there all just gonna kill you [....]"

 

First: YOU can please test this and then give good feedback, if you wish. Feel free to use proper punctuation, and sentence structure, if you want anyone to respect you, or even conform to your wishes. DEV time is precious. Players are there to test and give the best feedback possible.

 

Second: If you went into a room with 40 people and they shoot weapons, someone is gonna get hurt. Too bad. Things got more real. Live with it.

*facepalm* did you learn how to talk to someone before? from when do people say "feel free to use proper punctuation and sentence structure,if you want anyone to respect you,or even conform to your wishes".I don't think that you have ever received an email from a company.....