Update 7.11.0: Vauban!

[SoulEchelon]

I can agree it's enough to run away, but they're far to expensive energy wise (75 and 100) for what they do.

 

I'm comparing all abilities pre nerf (only fair, no point in comparing today's banshee ult to old IS, you compare old banshee ult to old IS), as that's what he was saying (he was saying IS was OP when it gave 15 seconds of invul) And I never said you can't ninja your way to enemies, but it's much harder if you're slow, and there are someplaces where you have trouble/can't do it (i.e. long corridors, defense missions it's unwise to leave the pod, etc) Also, the "conserve ammo" thing doesn't work very well with a gorgon as it's very inaccurate, and yeah I normally do conserve ammo pretty well, but if there are enough enemies I do run out of ammo, or if I'm using high rate weapons (i.e. gorgon, twin vipers, afuris, etc), or lag (not playing on a very good PC imo) it's much harder (even if I fire in bursts to not waste so much ammo)

 

Once again, don't blame DE or Rhino for your choices. Usually people tend to balance themselves with one accurate weapon for ranged enemies and a high fire rate one for those nearby. If you're fighting Grineer or Corpus, you should be using weapons that work best against them. If you're fighting Infested, then your high fire rate weapons would do well. The game isn't supposed to conform to you - you're supposed to conform to the game. If none of us learned what was best to use against what, then everyone would be asking for godmode buttons-oh wait.

 

 

 

How I normally play the game? It depends, with rhino I liked being the tank, working my way upfront, then taking shots until my shields are about to drop, activate IS (before the nerf) and then either kill the rest off, or find a place to back off and continue shooting (infested obv, it turned into a melee fest)

 

Stay upfront and pull agro just as usual - but now you have to be SMART about it. The people behind you aren't supposed to walk away squeaky clean - DE has stated clearly that they don't want this game to become a "holy trinity" style game. Rhino is supposed to be tankier, but he's not supposed to take ALL the damage from everything while everyone else just sits back and left clicks a few times.

 

Anyway, done with all this for the night. I swear I'm losing brain cells on this forum now.

 

 

 

i will never join people who want a lazy button

 

Agreed.

Edited May 22, 2013 by SoulEchelon

[KvotheTheArcane1]

maybe they should remake rihno towards a earth power based warframe with tanking abilities e.g. skill which gathers mineral from earth and makes a big dome (of many pieces) around him (about 2 meter radius?) while it rotates that stops all attack, enamies, powers and such from touching him for about 15seconds? but there are gaps in it which allows things to effect him, of course it can cover your allys too so you can use it to revive. and when u use a skill it does diffrent things.

rush cause any of the floating rocks you hit to fly off the dome damging enamies and knocking down,

radial blast cause the layers of rocks on closest level to fly out, (like gorund level, 2nd level, 3 level, hights of the rocks floating)

and his ulti would cause all the rocks to fly stright up very high (of course whats goes up must come down) then fall down when statis ends causing damge to all enimies under the area which the dome was used and knocking them down if they some how got up, or was not effected by his ulti.

That could work, I'm ify on the dome as it's a bit like frosts (but I'd expect overlap between frames eventually) and it'd be an interesting mechanic. only problem is, the other abilities rely on it, so maybe they could generate some of the flying rocks/debris/etc somehow. (or even scrap some of the abilities and make new ones, which would be fine too)

 

I agree with the overall point here: Rhino needs a rework! there wouldn't have been nearly as much rage as there is/was if they had reworked/buffed his other abilities, because then they'd be more useful obv (maybe longer duration from stomp like ~10 seconds base, I mean, it IS your ult and it IS dealing almost no damage, so it's CC needs to make up for it.)

 

i will never join people who want a lazy button

again, before 7.11 banshee had the biggest lazy button, along with volt, saryn, etc, rhino was hardly far up the list as you still had to do all the shooting/killing your self. during the animations you were invul too (i.e. banshee had no reason to not run into the middle of a room and ult, she'd regen shields doing so.)

Edited May 22, 2013 by KvotheTheArcane1

[wayneo]

okay so basically, Rhino needs to go back to the way it was. Too many people are upset with the Game Devs right now it doesn't look so good. If you can't beat 'em, might as well join 'em.

stupid to go back to way it was, reason he was changed because the way he was, was overpowered, he just need a rework.

Edited May 22, 2013 by wayneo

[KvotheTheArcane1]

stupid to go back to way it was, reason he was changed because the way he was, was overpowered, he just need a rework.

Yes I can agree, they need to rework IS to be either higher cost, less duration, or a cool down (probably a mix of all 3, and why stick to 25/50/75/100 energy schemes? Why not do things like 60 energy, 40 energy base, etc might make it easier to balance things)

[K1LLZ0NE]

stupid to go back to way it was, reason he was changed because the way he was, was overpowered, he just need a rework.

 

What is considered to be "overpowered" is subjective. It would help if the devs told us why they think it is overpowered.  Then we might be able to get somewhere.  And please don't give me a hundred reasons you think it was OP.  That is not the point of this post.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

What is considered to be "overpowered" is subjective. It would help if the devs told us why they think it is overpowered.  Then we might be able to get somewhere.  And please don't give me a hundred reasons you think it was OP.  That is not the point of this post.

Personally I think it was the fact "clever" people (and by that I mean people who abused the heck out of it) figured out that they could keep it chained for 2-3 minutes or something crazy.

Edited May 22, 2013 by KvotheTheArcane1

[ZeroSlash]

reading this forum just make me think we are not playing the same game or that im wrong about the concept of the game. i dont installed this game to run for cover to cover, the market(and i) are already satured of that kind of games. the reason i play this game is the diversity of characters and skills and how we could combine them to achieve the objectives. i can also pass Hades or any other Pluto's mission  whitout any skill, redirection or vitality and i believe that many other of us can do that too, but thats not the way we want to do. And I will go back to CoD and BF before i play this game that way.

Personaly i thing that the nerf herd that says that the skill X or Y is a instawin button is not used to fight high lvl enemies. i thing they never passed a lvl 50 wave in any defense mission( i think they should be hidding in some cover in Pluto while they shot the enemies without using any of their frame skills(i'm sorry it's not personal)), and if the nerfs go on the difference of the frames will be only cosmetic(if the game goes that way i wish they at least implement some cover system).

I agree that spamming IS or any other skill is not the right way to play, but thats why all frames have limited amounts of energy. maybe the drop rate of energy is a little too high, if it were rebalanced it would make the skills less 'spammable'. And there is another ways to deal with that problem like a cool down or a higher energy cost. Taking the invul of the cast time of the ults is okay(as long they are taken form all frames(except Nix, of course)), this will make us play wisely the game, not just jump in the middle of the enemies and hit 4 to watch they die while our shields regenerate.

 

 

sorry for my bad english, even i can understand all i read i still have alot of difficulty to express myself. and sorry for the length of my post but i really needed to expose my thoughts about all this changes 

[holdenagincourt]

his radial blast is very useful, alot of damge and knocks down if there not dead, ulti  statis last 9 seconds, knocks them down and has big range, rush knocks them down and can be useful for rushing out when surrounded then go into cover.

 

Radial Blast does not do "a lot of damage." It does damage equal to about 1/5 of a level 30 Corpus Crewman's health bar, or the shields of a level 30 Shockwave Moa plus 1/10 of its health bar, for 75 energy. This is maxed with the enemy directly next to Rhino upon activation.

 

Rhino Stomp isn't useless but unlike in the case of Loki, Rhino's other skills don't justify having an ultimate that is this underwhelming. Being able to disable heavy units for an extended period of time is pretty much the only niche this ability fills.

 

Rhino Charge is serviceable for 25 energy, but I have to point out that compared to Slash Dash it does less damage, has less range, has no multiplier against Infested, and cannot travel up inclines. But we all know Slash Dash is OP for its energy cost so that might just indicate that Rhino Charge is a well-balanced first skill that helps make up for Rhino's poor mobility.

 

Looking at Rhino as a complete package, it seems to me that his other three abilities (or at least two of the three) should have been buffed before changing Iron Skin. As for possible changes to the ability going forward, I would say just roll back the most recent change and then reduce Iron Skin's base duration. Perhaps also switch its energy cost with Radial Blast so that power is slightly more worth using.

[Aigloblam]

Iron Skin soaking up 800 damage until it breaks? That actually sounds good to me. He's still tanky, can survive a crowd, but it's also not an insta-win button anymore.

 

I find myself wondering if thats before or after his Armor. Because with a Maxed out Steel Fiber, he has 110% of his base of 150. If damage is reduced that much before it even hits his health, wouldn't 800 damage still be pretty seriously tanky? My Rhino still has 2 days before its finished, so im no expert, but that still seems like a lot, even on Pluto.

[K1LLZ0NE]

I find myself wondering if thats before or after his Armor. Because with a Maxed out Steel Fiber, he has 110% of his base of 150. If damage is reduced that much before it even hits his health, wouldn't 800 damage still be pretty seriously tanky? My Rhino still has 2 days before its finished, so im no expert, but that still seems like a lot, even on Pluto.

 

That 800 is a flat rate.  Meaning nothing modifies it (armor value and mods do nothing).  And as for that being a lot of damage, not if you really think about.  Now that it aggros, you can have an entire room full of enemies hitting you with crazy damage.  Just hop on pluto with 800 shields and see how long it takes for them to get depleted.  Like 5 seconds.  If you are going up against the base mobs.  And not higher waves of defense missions.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

I find myself wondering if thats before or after his Armor. Because with a Maxed out Steel Fiber, he has 110% of his base of 150. If damage is reduced that much before it even hits his health, wouldn't 800 damage still be pretty seriously tanky? My Rhino still has 2 days before its finished, so im no expert, but that still seems like a lot, even on Pluto.

Not on high level stuff, it's pretty low. Try going there, and just find the nearest enemy and let him shoot you a little, watch how fast your shields drop, because you only get 800 shielding (more or less) for a limited amount of time, and that's something they just chew through.

[Aigloblam]

Radial Blast does not do "a lot of damage." It does damage equal to about 1/5 of a level 30 Corpus Crewman's health bar, or the shields of a level 30 Shockwave Moa plus 1/10 of its health bar, for 75 energy. This is maxed with the enemy directly next to Rhino upon activation.

 

Rhino Stomp isn't useless but unlike in the case of Loki, Rhino's other skills don't justify having an ultimate that is this underwhelming. Being able to disable heavy units for an extended period of time is pretty much the only niche this ability fills.

 

Rhino Charge is serviceable for 25 energy, but I have to point out that compared to Slash Dash it does less damage, has less range, has no multiplier against Infested, and cannot travel up inclines. But we all know Slash Dash is OP for its energy cost so that might just indicate that Rhino Charge is a well-balanced first skill that helps make up for Rhino's poor mobility.

 

Looking at Rhino as a complete package, it seems to me that his other three abilities (or at least two of the three) should have been buffed before changing Iron Skin. As for possible changes to the ability going forward, I would say just roll back the most recent change and then reduce Iron Skin's base duration. Perhaps also switch its energy cost with Radial Blast so that power is slightly more worth using.

I did have a Thought, and my Rhino playing friend thought it would be kinda neat, but im not sure how everyone else will take it.

The issue wasnt that he was invulnerable with iron skin, it was that he could keep it up so long and still return fire, making boss runs almost cheating. Trinity + Rhino = GAME OVER....There is absolutely nothing they couldn't destroy without taking a single point of damage.

So instead of nerfing the Invulnerability, how about make it so that he can't attack while he uses it? That way he really would be the Tank, But he would have to rely on someone else to kill the boss. Any thoughts?

[Phoenix86]

what's this "800 dmg" thing about Iron Skin? can anyone link me or quote an official post from DE about it?

 

I really hope this is not going to happen... Iron Skin just needs its CC/poison/energy drain restored, that's it.

 

edit: @the_user_above_me: HELL NO.

Edited May 22, 2013 by Phoenix86

[Aigloblam]

That 800 is a flat rate.  Meaning nothing modifies it (armor value and mods do nothing).  And as for that being a lot of damage, not if you really think about.  Now that it aggros, you can have an entire room full of enemies hitting you with crazy damage.  Just hop on pluto with 800 shields and see how long it takes for them to get depleted.  Like 5 seconds.  If you are going up against the base mobs.  And not higher waves of defense missions.

When me and my friend run pluto missions, his Rhino survives just fine. He just has to play a little more carefully. Not hiding behind things all the time, he just can no longer jump headlong into the room and ignore everything. He says the trick is to concentrate more on Offense and Speed than defense, which at first sounded a bit odd, being the tank, but eventually i noticed that he was killing things fast enough that they couldn't hit him back 'en masse. I dont even have to run my Trinity with him.

Granted he doesnt like the nerf, but seems to be dealing with it just fine.

 

That being said, Since its just a flat rate and doesnt take into account anything else....Yeah its pretty S#&$ty. I just assumed it did. My Bad.

Edited May 22, 2013 by Aigloblam

[Aigloblam]

what's this "800 dmg" thing about Iron Skin? can anyone link me or quote an official post from DE about it?

 

I really hope this is not going to happen... Iron Skin just needs its CC/poison/energy drain restored, that's it.

 

edit: @the_user_above_me: HELL NO.

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/47095-may-19th-hot-feedback-topics/

Like midway down the page or so.

 

 

Edit: Why not? Whats so bad about exchanging offense for total defense?

Edited May 22, 2013 by Aigloblam

[KvotheTheArcane1]

When me and my friend run pluto missions, his Rhino survives just fine. He just has to play a little more carefully. Not hiding behind things all the time, he just can no longer jump headlong into the room and ignore everything. He says the trick is to concentrate more on Offense and Speed than defense, which at first sounded a bit odd, being the tank, but eventually i noticed that he was killing things fast enough that they couldn't hit him back 'en masse. I dont even have to run my Trinity with him.

Granted he doesnt like the nerf, but seems to be dealing with it just fine.

 

That being said, Since its just a flat rate and doesnt take into account anything else....Yeah its pretty S#&$ty. I just assumed it did. My Bad.

irony there as rhino is supposed to be the tank, not the power house like excal/saryn/etc

[Aigloblam]

irony there as rhino is supposed to be the tank, not the power house like excal/saryn/etc

I can see your point, But mine still stands.

He is far from useless, Nerfed Iron Skin or not.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

I can see your point, But mine still stands.

He is far from useless, Nerfed Iron Skin or not.

everything he can someone else does better. ember tanks better, vauban has his ult as his 3, excal's slash dash is a much better version of rhino charge, and radial blast is... bad. any damaging AoE out damages it.

[Aigloblam]

everything he can someone else does better. ember tanks better, vauban has his ult as his 3, excal's slash dash is a much better version of rhino charge, and radial blast is... bad. any damaging AoE out damages it.

Absolutely right, But think of it this way. Yes each of those frames have better abilities vs Rhino's, but you are comparing what one warframe can do, to 4 other frames. To do what One Rhino can do, you need 4 frames. Yeah they are a bit better, but he has them all in one package.

In the end if we keep arguing this, You will win...because i have very very little experience playing him (< 1 hour), So im just trying to get across the point that he isn't useless...He just isnt the allmighty ignorer of damage that he was before. Do you honestly think its fair to be able to be Totally untouchable for 45 seconds? (Using base stats) Thats handing the game to him on a silver platter. 

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Absolutely right, But think of it this way. Yes each of those frames have better abilities vs Rhino's, but you are comparing what one warframe can do, to 4 other frames. To do what One Rhino can do, you need 4 frames. Yeah they are a bit better, but he has them all in one package.

In the end if we keep arguing this, You will win...because i have very very little experience playing him (< 1 hour), So im just trying to get across the point that he isn't useless...He just isnt the allmighty ignorer of damage that he was before. Do you honestly think its fair to be able to be Totally untouchable for 45 seconds? (Using base stats) Thats handing the game to him on a silver platter. 

right he isn't useless, but it's the fact that rhino just isn't worth using right now. his 3 (radial blast) is just bad, no reason to use it on level 20ish enemies, stomp is ok, but it just doesn't last long enough, and vs high level enemies, that 80% dr just doesn't do enough to keep you alive for much longer (plus it lasts like 8 seconds or something now I think).

"Do you honestly think its fair to be able to be Totally untouchable for 45 seconds? (Using base stats) Thats handing the game to him on a silver platter."

 

what about frames that have a "kill everyone in the room" button? why is that more balanced than a "not be killed by anyone in the room" button? (sure it costs 100 energy, but a few frames have 225 eng base) AND rhino still has to shoot everything. True, for 50 eng, it's semi op, and could use a cooldown, energy cost increase, or duration decrease.

[Aigloblam]

right he isn't useless, but it's the fact that rhino just isn't worth using right now. his 3 (radial blast) is just bad, no reason to use it on level 20ish enemies, stomp is ok, but it just doesn't last long enough, and vs high level enemies, that 80% dr just doesn't do enough to keep you alive for much longer (plus it lasts like 8 seconds or something now I think).

"Do you honestly think its fair to be able to be Totally untouchable for 45 seconds? (Using base stats) Thats handing the game to him on a silver platter."

 

what about frames that have a "kill everyone in the room" button? why is that more balanced than a "not be killed by anyone in the room" button? (sure it costs 100 energy, but a few frames have 225 eng base) AND rhino still has to shoot everything. True, for 50 eng, it's semi op, and could use a cooldown, energy cost increase, or duration decrease.

 

Well for starters, Killing everyone in a room doesnt really do a lot. Even on low level missions there are enough enemies that even killing a whole room full doesn't make too huge of a dent. And those Ults are almost all set at non scaling damage. My Saryn has ever mod possible to increase her Ult's power in every way possible, and anything higher than lvl 45 or so only has about 60% mortality rate (Rough guess, never counted).

Next, there is no way this is the end of the Nerfs...It will keep going until Warframe is a challenging as the Devs want it to be. It wouldn't surprise me at all to see all the room clearing Ults to be the next on the chopping block. I only use ONE ability on my Excalibur, Slash Dash. Everything else i feel is either extremely situational (Super Jump), or does too little too late to really be a game changer (Radial Blind/Javelin). Not needing to have space for all the Warframe powers has made me able to super charge others instead, Making him easily a match for any other frame in the game. I didn't build another frame till i was in the top 4 thousand of the leaderboard, ranked with people that had triple my game time logged in. Point being: One ability does not a warframe make.

In all honesty, I do believe Nerfing rhino like that was a mistake, and the fix for it isn't any better in the long run. But I'm still going to play him, and im still doing to dominate with him just like i have with every frame i've used. No matter what they do to any frame, Overcoming the enemy is still going to be a blast. I do have to admit though, It seems as if this Forum attracts a more mature user base than for most other games....Anywhere else and someone would have been screaming at me for being an idiot, rather than breaking down their point, like you did.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Well for starters, Killing everyone in a room doesnt really do a lot. Even on low level missions there are enough enemies that even killing a whole room full doesn't make too huge of a dent. And those Ults are almost all set at non scaling damage. My Saryn has ever mod possible to increase her Ult's power in every way possible, and anything higher than lvl 45 or so only has about 60% mortality rate (Rough guess, never counted).

true, not as useful on higher level missions, but they require more or less clean up instead of full gun damage, and they can spam it room to room on lower levels (heck, banshee might have been able to kill 2 rooms pre-nerf if they were kinda small.)

Next, there is no way this is the end of the Nerfs...It will keep going until Warframe is a challenging as the Devs want it to be. It wouldn't surprise me at all to see all the room clearing Ults to be the next on the chopping block. I only use ONE ability on my Excalibur, Slash Dash. Everything else i feel is either extremely situational (Super Jump), or does too little too late to really be a game changer (Radial Blind/Javelin). Not needing to have space for all the Warframe powers has made me able to super charge others instead, Making him easily a match for any other frame in the game. I didn't build another frame till i was in the top 4 thousand of the leaderboard, ranked with people that had triple my game time logged in. Point being: One ability does not a warframe make.

true, they should look at buffing abilities/frames, not endless nerfing (even though slash dash is VERY good for what it costs, it shouldn't be nerfed, at worst most abilities right now should have CD slightly longer than they last so they can't be spammed, so no one cries about how OP something is (when it's spammed, because that's what makes it seem op)

In all honesty, I do believe Nerfing rhino like that was a mistake, and the fix for it isn't any better in the long run. But I'm still going to play him, and im still doing to dominate with him just like i have with every frame i've used. No matter what they do to any frame, Overcoming the enemy is still going to be a blast. I do have to admit though, It seems as if this Forum attracts a more mature user base than for most other games....Anywhere else and someone would have been screaming at me for being an idiot, rather than breaking down their point, like you did.

yup agreed the nerf was overdone, and while he can be played, it's just not as effective as other frames, and requires a different playstyle than the devs intended for him (tank to more or less a gimped excal as someone has said)

[Aigloblam]

I do like the idea of Cooldown. If done right, It could solve a lot of problems. Possibly make IS have a 10 second cool down between casts, Or have the option for scaling costs, so if its done right after the first it would cost 75% more or something. So it would go like this:
1. Cast IS for 50e - 15 second duration

2. Wait 10 seconds to cast again OR Pay 70e to cast it instantly - 15 second duration

3. Wait 10 seconds to cast again OR pay 125e to cast instantly - 15 second duration

 

That would stop the spamming unless it was absolutely imperitive that it be cast immediately, in which case you would be paying energy out the *Expletive Deleted*.

(Please don't judge me on my math...Numbers and my brain simply do not play well together)

 

Of course thats just one of my random little suggestions, I tend to have a lot.
Personally id REALLY like to see a Graph of what percentage of players are playing what frames at the moment. Wouldn't do much game wise, but im quite curious.

Edited May 22, 2013 by Aigloblam

[KvotheTheArcane1]

I do like the idea of Cooldown. If done right, It could solve a lot of problems. Possibly make IS have a 10 second cool down between casts, Or have the option for scaling costs, so if its done right after the first it would cost 75% more or something. So it would go like this:

1. Cast IS for 50e - 15 second duration

2. Wait 10 seconds to cast again OR Pay 70e to cast it instantly - 15 second duration

3. Wait 10 seconds to cast again OR pay 125e to cast instantly - 15 second duration

 

That would stop the spamming unless it was absolutely imperitive that it be cast immediately, in which case you would be paying energy out the *Expletive Deleted*.

(Please don't judge me on my math...Numbers and my brain simply do not play well together)

 

Of course thats just one of my random little suggestions, I tend to have a lot.

Personally id REALLY like to see a Graph of what percentage of players are playing what frames at the moment. Wouldn't do much game wise, but im quite curious.

That'd be a good idea, that way if you REALLY need the invinc, you can cast it (although you should wait +10 seconds each time, not a flat 10 imo (i.e. 3rd cast means a 20 second cool down)

[Frendh]

I hate cool downs. And with cool downs you will never be in a situation where you cannot use abilities given a short retreat/hide behind cover. This will affect boss fights a lot. This is in the context of having cool downs replacing mana costs.

 

And I am also against making the game more challenging by making it more(significantly) difficult to kill each opponent. For me Tenno is about inherently being a beast. So killing a tenno should take an army. So, facing more enemies to increase the difficulty is what I like. More Synergy troopers would not be a bad thing either, so you are incouraged to taking out key units first. (Corpus Shield drones would be a good example of synergy units)

Edited May 22, 2013 by Frendh