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Kiste - Ceres Bug?


GoinHAM
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Personally, I feel it's less of an absolute 'this is too difficult' kind of thing, and more of a 'there are easier, generally-equivalent options available' kind of thing. While it's quite trivial to shoot down the rockets with an Ignis (a similar effect can be obtained by tricking the rocket into going through a Torid cloud), it is possible to shoot down the rockets with more conventional weaponry; it's only that it's juuuust enough of a challenge that, if anything else life-threatening is going on around you and you haven't practiced it (and honestly, why would you, unless you have fun doing this sort of thing), its near-impossible to pull off. I can, if adequately covered, do it about 40-60% of the time with a Marelok, and I've heard that the Drakgoon is great for anti-rocket work. In a similar vein, I would imagine the Supra would suffice as well.

Damn, with a marelok? I've emptied entire clips from full auto weapons into oncoming rockets with no luck so far.

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I have a question though. Why does destroying the rocket deal damage back to the bombards? Are they normally affected by their own damage if it explodes on something close enough?

My guess is that it's because self damage is also a thing for a player wielded Ogris.

 

 

EDIT1: Also, is there any way to download the video off that site? Just personal preference more than anything.

Right click on the video - click "save video as"

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So, how are the testings coming along?

It's been more than a few days since Rebecca mentioned it (3 weeks now).

Is there any progress on this matter?

 

Maybe it has something to do with the Nightmare Raid?

As far as I can tell, the issues started around the time NM Raid got implemented (May 12, 2015).

 

 

I'm going to need 3 volunteers - ideally Tenno who have already posted in this thread and that have experienced this first hand - to do some testing to discover exactly what the source of this damage is using some stat technology we have available. 

 

If you have a flexible schedule to test this as a group over the next few days - let me know.

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So, how are the testings coming along?

It's been more than a few days since Rebecca mentioned it (3 weeks now).

Is there any progress on this matter?

 

Maybe it has something to do with the Nightmare Raid?

As far as I can tell, the issues started around the time NM Raid got implemented (May 12, 2015).

 

Hmm, maybe.

 

EDIT: As far as testing is going, we recently had a breakthrough thanks to AuroraSonicBoom: Individual Bombards are, through an as-yet-unknown process, scaling the damage they do every time they fire. Something that just occurred to me as I write this: perhaps the base damage equation for each missile is using not just the Bombard's level, but the level + the number of missiles destroyed.

Edited by MechaGent
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Hmm, maybe.

 

EDIT: As far as testing is going, we recently had a breakthrough thanks to AuroraSonicBoom: Individual Bombards are, through an as-yet-unknown process, scaling the damage they do every time they fire. Something that just occurred to me as I write this: perhaps the base damage equation for each missile is using not just the Bombard's level, but the level + the number of missiles destroyed.

 

That would imply that the increase in damage is intentional.

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Just wanted to drop a big thank you to everyone who's been looking into this and posting videos and information. It might take a while for the bug to get fixed but as a fellow player I really appreciate the effort being put into the reports.

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EDIT: As far as testing is going, we recently had a breakthrough thanks to AuroraSonicBoom: Individual Bombards are, through an as-yet-unknown process, scaling the damage they do every time they fire. Something that just occurred to me as I write this: perhaps the base damage equation for each missile is using not just the Bombard's level, but the level + the number of missiles destroyed.

This is what I tried:

In the beginning of the Kiste, I just stood infront of the 1st bombard I encountered and let him fire several missiles at me.

Each missile did around 100-200 damage to my shield.

 

Then, I did the same at the 2nd objective.

Stood right infront of a freshly spawned Bombard.

That freshly spawned Bombard insta-killed me (didn't have Iron Skin on to test it) with his first or 2nd missile.

 

From this, I could say that the damage scales:

1. over time

2. with each bombard spawn

3. with mission progression (so each time you move to the next objective)

 

Either way, the damage scaling is insane.

Without exageration, the bombards at 1h T4S are much easier than the Kiste Bombards at 2nd objective.

 

This is a serious issue, why didn't we get any word from DE in the past 3 weeks? Or did I miss it somewhere?

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From this, I could say that the damage scales:

1. over time

2. with each bombard spawn

3. with mission progression (so each time you move to the next objective)

 

I can confirm this. The insta-kill bombards on Sedna appeared after around 15 minutes of survival. No problems before that.

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I should make my contribution to this bug as well. I made a reddit post about it; x-posting for convenience

 

Some things worth noting:

  • Damage definitely falls off from the explosion's core, though the radius is insane.
  • Actual damage numbers are seemingly random. However, it is plausible that the numbers are exponentially increasing and the randomness would then simply be due to integer overflow.
  • Apart from damage numbers, the fundamental bug occurs consistently when the rocket is destroyed prematurely (or at least, with a simulor).
  • For reasons unknown to me: my kubrow is sometimes unaffected.

I haven't been able to determine what causes the numbers to change (though that's probably established anyway), but I have seen that it increases, whether that'd be over time, per rocket instance, etc. What I find strange are the earlier reports showing that this only affects the host.

 

EDIT: After testing (for my own benefit) to see if I can melee the rockets with my dragon nikana (haven't succeeded yet), the bug started showing up after a few bombard spawns in the simulacrum.

I have a hunch that the bug is an unintended multiplier to the bombard's base value as more of them spawn.

 

EDIT2: After a while the bug comes on-off on rocket explosion. However I've not seen the bug occur when there is only one rocket instance at a time.

 

EDIT3: I decided to go back to testing with the simulor destroying the rockets. This time, Consistently, with a single bombard, and recording damage numbers. I'll put them up shortly. Hopefully actually showing the numbers will give further insight.

(I've tried eliminating the possibility that the simulor itself contributes to the resulting damage. So far, I've only eliminated the effect of the # of stacks on the bombard glitch)

I tried to consistently be at the same spot when performing this, to minimise the effects of fall-off. Spawning only 1 in the simulacrum is also helpful since they spawn at the same place.

 

Ok folks, here are the results:

KNvze1D.png

I've attempted a similar experiment with 20 bombards rather than just one. results were slightly more chaotic (in one instance, the fall off seemed to stem from somewhere other than my simulor vortex!), but similar to the single bombard experiment.

What could be drawn from this?

 

Most notably, powers of two appear to be involved here (look at the seemingly linear trend in the log graph). Also, as it was already established before, it generally increases, though it's still uncertain as to how it is doing so. (In a technical perspective, possibly some unwanted logical left bit shifts are involved?) That said, it's worth noting that throughout this experiment, in every instance, there were also 2 stray rockets that veered into the sky upon death. Though I did do a 20-bombard experiment achieving similar results, so I'm unsure of the effect of stray rockets in this. To further add uncertainty, and I'll repeat: I'm unsure if my simulor has directly contributed to the damage caused by the rocket's destruction.

 

One other point: it seems to cap out at the magic number 574235520. I haven't managed to get anything higher than this, and I don't know the significance of this number, on its own. If damage fall-off is proportional to the inverse square, rather than linear, maybe it's related to the maximum signed 32-bit integer (2147483647, for those wondering what that is; that divided by 4 is 536870912, which is 93% that of 574235520 - similar.)?

 

If this is truly what's happening, then it must be asked: how is it happening, and more importantly, why? is some sort of 2x multiplier stacking multiple times, intentional?

Edited by Syzodia
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<snip of ridiculously informative post directly above me>

 

This also brings up a heretofore unknown bit of info. This isn't only possible in a Host to client situation, it's possible to achieve solo. The simulacrum forces you to solo mode. This also confirms to me that I encountered this bug after 35 minutes in t4 survival running solo with my excalibur. The entire time I had been shooting down bombard rockets with exalted blade (it's so much easier to do it even accidentally with that skill) then suddenly past 35 minutes I just started dropping instantly dead with no warning.

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This also brings up a heretofore unknown bit of info. This isn't only possible in a Host to client situation, it's possible to achieve solo. The simulacrum forces you to solo mode. This also confirms to me that I encountered this bug after 35 minutes in t4 survival running solo with my excalibur. The entire time I had been shooting down bombard rockets with exalted blade (it's so much easier to do it even accidentally with that skill) then suddenly past 35 minutes I just started dropping instantly dead with no warning.

I suppose this also goes to show that it's not exclusive to bombards, but also corrupted bombards. Perhaps the issue might be a bit more general to explosive projectiles in general (like Tonkors?)

 

Though I am a bit surprised that you only started experiencing it after 35 minutes in T4 - that's quite a long time.

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Im actually beginning to wonder if this isnt limited to bombards, or if the bombards can affect the damage output of all enemies. I had a solid team running a T4s tonight, right around the 30-35min mark, we were getting destroyed in single hits. Even my zephyr with 1100/1100 was getting nailed. We ran this same mission two nights ago and did NOT have this same issue.

 

Something else we noticed was that on some enemies (and ive been seeing this more and more often) our weapons will do almost no damage. On one lancer i would hit for 700-800 damage per round, and all of a sudden on the next it would hit for 20-30 damage. Neither of them were eximus. Ive seen this happen on many random enemies in the void so far.

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Im actually beginning to wonder if this isnt limited to bombards, or if the bombards can affect the damage output of all enemies. I had a solid team running a T4s tonight, right around the 30-35min mark, we were getting destroyed in single hits. Even my zephyr with 1100/1100 was getting nailed. We ran this same mission two nights ago and did NOT have this same issue.

 

Something else we noticed was that on some enemies (and ive been seeing this more and more often) our weapons will do almost no damage. On one lancer i would hit for 700-800 damage per round, and all of a sudden on the next it would hit for 20-30 damage. Neither of them were eximus. Ive seen this happen on many random enemies in the void so far.

For your other problem, are you sure there isn't a corrupted ancient nearby? That lets nearby enemies take 90% less damage.

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I suppose this also goes to show that it's not exclusive to bombards, but also corrupted bombards. Perhaps the issue might be a bit more general to explosive projectiles in general (like Tonkors?)

 

Though I am a bit surprised that you only started experiencing it after 35 minutes in T4 - that's quite a long time.

There have been very few reports of this occurring in the void, the handful I've seen have all been after extensive playtime. One fellow encountered this in a void defence mission (no idea where his post went) and it was instant death to the pod too. It might be to do with the different scaling and spawn rates of the void. bombards are a lot less common on a t4 survival than Ceres.

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For your other problem, are you sure there isn't a corrupted ancient nearby? That lets nearby enemies take 90% less damage.

 

Does that matter if eximus or not? I suppose its possible. Ill pay more attention tonight. I might have missed the memo on that one.

Edited by Faulcun
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Does that matter if eximus or not? I suppose its possible. Ill pay more attention tonight. I might have missed the memo on that one.

 

I don't believe it does, I'm just glad that there's no disruptors in the void as well, that ability-damage suppression is annoying as hell.

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Cool, there's a thread about this already.

 

Okay, when I host, I get one shot from literally the air and I go down regardless of the frames I have. Teammates come to revive me, couple seconds later, the mission fails. Now I've been watching to see if the terminal actually takes any damge and it's not. It's always at full health then suddenly the mission is failed. Also, it randomly fails at different terminals. Sometimes it's the first one. Other times, it's the second or last terminal, the last terminal being rare.

 

Now when I don't host and join another person's game, the host gets downed by air once or twice before the mission fails. Again, nothing hits the terminal and it's at full health.

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This is now happening on Lua, earth as of hotfix 16.11.4 with the extractors. We're just randomly dropping dead from level 25 grineer and the extractors are randomly exploding despite things being disarmed. It's happened in four missions in a row now.

Edited by TheGuyverOne
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This is now happening on Lua, earth as of hotfix 16.11.4 with the extractors. We're just randomly dropping dead from level 25 grineer and the extractors are randomly exploding despite things being disarmed. It's happened in four missions in a row now.

 

Hmm. Based on some of the stuff we've seen (and this is going to sound ridiculous), it might be Bombards shooting at the feral kubrows several tiles away. Will test further when it's no longer 1 in the morning...

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This is now happening on Lua, earth as of hotfix 16.11.4 with the extractors. We're just randomly dropping dead from level 25 grineer and the extractors are randomly exploding despite things being disarmed. It's happened in four missions in a row now.

 

Can confirm.  Mission was playing as normal at first, waw several bombards and killed them normally. Then we got to 1100 points and the bombards of death started.  The first one took out my shields and most of my health instantly.  Less than a minute later I got downed, my kubrow took about 1300 health damage (his shield strength is over 1000 as well), and a nearby extractor got blown up all at the same time.

Edited by Momaw
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Hmm. Based on some of the stuff we've seen (and this is going to sound ridiculous), it might be Bombards shooting at the feral kubrows several tiles away. Will test further when it's no longer 1 in the morning...

 

I'm fairly certain that there were no feral kubrows near the excavator and everything was disarmed. I only ever bring my loki there for long runs and spam the disarm. Everything in the four runs where I noticed this was dying almost as soon as it spawned, until it started one shotting my squad and I.

 

Can confirm.  Mission was playing as normal at first, waw several bombards and killed them normally. Then we got to 1100 points and the bombards of death started.  The first one took out my shields and most of my health instantly.  Less than a minute later I got downed, my kubrow took about 1300 health damage (his shield strength is over 1000 as well), and a nearby extractor got blown up all at the same time.

 

I put rage/quick thinking on and stood there disarming with full hp and almost full energy and I just randomly died and the excavator blew up with nothing to cue me in that I was being shot at or anything. I hope this doesn't become a recurring thing on more nodes :|

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I'm fairly certain that there were no feral kubrows near the excavator and everything was disarmed. I only ever bring my loki there for long runs and spam the disarm. Everything in the four runs where I noticed this was dying almost as soon as it spawned, until it started one shotting my squad and I.

 

-snip-

 

 

Hmm. Based on some of the stuff we've seen (and this is going to sound ridiculous), it might be Bombards shooting at the feral kubrows several tiles away. Will test further when it's no longer 1 in the morning...

 

*cough*

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