May 17Th Hot Topic: Constructive Feedback Vs Hyperbole

[Aggh]

Guys, just ignore this OBVIOUS troll.  He should have died out yesterday.  Please don't comment on anything this guy says.  

No surprise there.  He's one of the tools that defended the old "Pro" system really hard (ie cash only supercharging to double the upgrade tree on weapons and frames, could only use the 4th ability on frames if you pro'd it).

[Stalc]

Besides the fact that so many other warframes out class him it was his playstyle I preferred than trinity support because I want to be bashing enemies while still being able to invuln rather than healing people and invlun. Considering rhino can iron skin and revive fallen allies is a great use that I have been doing along with defense under heavy fire of enemies to cut them down to atleast not get mow down by bullets but that considering taking cover is useless if you have a commander swap places with you into a mob  or knocked out of your spot by a shock wave moa/roller hell even rollers affect rhino during his iron skin before the nerf. Regarding rhino as useless before the nerf then only supports that rhino needs heavy balance which this nerf did not help at all. I didn't always use iron skin but I did when I needed too as a panic button. Taking cover is a low excuse rhino is not suppose to take cover he needs to be in the middle of the fray blowing enemies against the walls and being able to sustain the attention radial blasts low range need to be near enemies to be effective his charge forces him to get near enemies and his cc ability that does little to no damage has purpose only in situational instances I.E cryo frame taking damage time to stop this and give the artifact a breather or other warframes just aoeing the F*** out of them to kill them out right.

[Dueler]

The Rhino changes make sense; his durability is still higher than other frames, but just not 100% invincible now. Of course the issues with Trinity make sense, but I can't say much on that matter since I haven't played Trinity yet.

 

I don't see the problem with Banshee's Soundquake though, that's like saying why is Mag invincible during Crush, why is Ash invincible during Blade Storm, etc.. The only situation that I see Rhinos having a harder time with now is with Toxic Ancients.

[KrisStrife]

2) They want to "balance" things a bit before the PvP sparring comes out. Again, understandable because they don't want to hear about QQing about how Rhino is so OP and that nobody else can scratch him. Warframe is a PvE game primarily, however, with sparring as a SIDE thing. In a life and death scenario in the MAIN game where you are surrounded by infested everywhere, don't you want at least one of your teammates able to weather the onslaught and tank for you while you shoot from relative safety? That's the purpose of a tank to attract attention, take damage and let the ones who prefer dps to do their job. There is no OP in co-op, we are helping each other and everyone is useful and everyone has a role. Most Rhinos are happy that they don't dps, they happy being melee/bullet sponges. We don't complain that others do more damage, if we wanted to do more damage, we'd play other frames. I love hitting Iron Skin and rushing to the aid of my teammates who are heavy under fire or need reviving. Now I hesitate and am not as willing - definitely not what the developers want, I am sure. Sure there will be a pet skill for this for the Sentinels but Sentinels are supposed to supplement your role not replace it.

We've been told that the game will not be getting balance changes based on the PVP. If this has changed, that's... Well, it's not fine by any means, but at least say something on the matter.

[bakaxy]

Going off of the current trend, they might nerf every 'frame.  They certainly seem to be leaning toward "Make everything more difficult".  I think it is because those guys made it to wave 80 in the defense mission.  Something the devs never intended to happen.

 

 Which is more a problem of the new defense map layout and making use of Snow Globe vs Corpus. Not the awesomeness of the old Iron Skin or Sound Quake...

[KvotheTheArcane1]

The Rhino changes make sense; his durability is still higher than other frames, but just not 100% invincible now. Of course the issues with Trinity make sense, but I can't say much on that matter since I haven't played Trinity yet.

 

I don't see the problem with Banshee's Soundquake though, that's like saying why is Mag invincible during Crush, why is Ash invincible during Blade Storm, etc.. The only situation that I see Rhinos having a harder time with now is with Toxic Ancients.

and disruptors once they hit you.

[Gregio]

People are making many wrongful comparisons out here.

Comparing Rhino's Iron Skin to Trinity's Link, Link makes Trinity invulnerable, yes, but if used anywhere other than an infested defense mission and Trinity takes very high damage, there's a chance she could kill a team mate, as Link transfers her damage to anyone close by, friend or foe.

Comparing Rhino's Charge to Excalibur's Slash Dash, Excalibur is an offensive/mobile frame, of course the damage is higher. Rhino is a tank/CC-frame. His charge should maybe knock down enemies, but the damage doesn't need to be higher.

Comparing Rhino's Iron Skin to Frost's Snow Globe. Snow Globe doesn't reduce the damage Frost takes, only incoming projectiles and again, outside of defense missions, it is a lot less usable.

Comparing Rhino's Iron Skin to Ember's Overheat. While I think that Iron Skin should nerf the damage from disruptors and toxics, it makes more sense that Overheat does that, seeing as Ember is the infested-bane warframe. Their weakness is fire and she's the fire frame. I mean, come on. Also, Rhino has a lot more shields and health, even if the damage reduction is currently lower.

90% of the biggest complaints about Rhino's nerf apply only to one scenario. High level/wave defense missions. And that is NOT the only thing to do in the game. Sure, it's currently the only scaling difficulty, but we're getting more stuff in Update 8, and Defense missions are cool, but other than challenging yourself, there's no real incentive in going past wave 15/20, the rewards don't get much better as of now.

I do agree that Iron Skin should be rebuffed, maybe short duration full invulnerability or higher % damage reduction and perhaps more range on Rhino's crowd controlling skills, but people need to get a bit outside their comfort zone and appreciate there is more than one thing to do in the game.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Gregio

[KyleOne]

Rhino's *thing* was walking up to ancient infested and slapping them. He slapped them hard. It was fun!

 

In my heart, one of the joys of PvE is the emphasis on outrageous fun (as opposed to PvP type balance). 

 

Example: Vauban is FUN. REALLY FUN. Much love to everyone who made him.

[fishworshipper]

The Rhino changes make sense; his durability is still higher than other frames, but just not 100% invincible now. Of course the issues with Trinity make sense, but I can't say much on that matter since I haven't played Trinity yet.

 

I don't see the problem with Banshee's Soundquake though, that's like saying why is Mag invincible during Crush, why is Ash invincible during Blade Storm, etc.. The only situation that I see Rhinos having a harder time with now is with Toxic Ancients.

It makes sense, but skull-f**** his usability.

Now, because of the change to Iron Skin, literally any 'Frame can tank, damage, and/or CC better than Rhino, not to mention move faster. He is useless without his invuln.

Edited May 19, 2013 by fishworshipper

[Gregio]

It makes sense, but skull-f**** his usability.

Now, because of the change to Iron Skin, literally any 'Frame can tank, damage, and/or CC better than Rhino, not to mention move faster. He is useless without his invuln.

 

Any frame. Really. Mag can tank better than Rhino? She can walk up a room, cast her 2 and calmly shoot things from the middle of the room without dying? And Volt. And Ash, Banshee, Saryn. Really.

He's not useless without full invulnerability Iron Skin, and it will probably be rebuffed, though not to full invulnerability for as long as it was before. He still has crowd control AND tanking. Who else has that? Frost. Guess what, he's the other tank warframe. And Ember, to a point, but Ember's skills are more close ranged and/or situational (i.e. fire only really does good damage against infested), and many people don't know the true value of Overheat.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Gregio

[K1LLZ0NE]

Any frame. Really. Mag can tank better than Rhino? She can walk up a room, cast her 2 and calmly shoot things from the middle of the room without dying? And Volt. And Ash, Banshee, Saryn. Really.

He's not useless without full invulnerability Iron Skin, and it will probably be rebuffed, though not to full invulnerability for as long as it was before. He still has crowd control AND tanking. Who else has that? Frost. Guess what, he's the other tank warframe. And Ember, to a point, but Ember's skills are more close ranged and/or situational (i.e. fire only really does good damage against infested), and many people don't know the true value of Overheat.

 

Have you used Rhino much?  If not, please don't spread misinformation.  Thank you.

[Gregio]

Have you used Rhino much?  If not, please don't spread misinformation.  Thank you.

I have. My Rhino still plays beautifully. He's not my main but I have tried him after the nerf, it's different but not inferior. Plays much the same as Frost, minus the one hit kill that is Avalanche, but with a lot more knock down. Still need to worry less about taking fire than non-tank frames, even without using Iron Skin, simply because he has over 900 shields.

[SoulEchelon]

Too busy right now to make any of my own suggestions, but I want to chip in and give a nod toward everyone who is actually sitting down with a clear head and giving VALID feedback instead of raging everywhere. This is what we should be doing, and if I had the time I'd +1 all of you who are providing that feedback.

 

And props to you Rebecca. I pity you for all the things you and the other devs have to put up with, but I truly applaud you for not being a typical "robot" giving typical "robotic" statements like most other devs in other game companies. You feel like a person when you post these topics, and I will happily speak for all of us when I say we respect that and admire it.

Edited May 19, 2013 by SoulEchelon

[K1LLZ0NE]

I have. My Rhino still plays beautifully. He's not my main but I have tried him after the nerf, it's different but not inferior. Plays much the same as Frost, minus the one hit kill that is Avalanche, but with a lot more knock down. Still need to worry less about taking fire than non-tank frames, even without using Iron Skin, simply because he has over 900 shields.

 

Are you playing on Venus or something?  I mean seriously....

Edited May 19, 2013 by K1LLZ0NE

[goozilla]

Radial blast deals 250 damage, maxed and without focus to lvl 30 chargers/runners/leapers, which doesn't kill them. It can, however, headshot for 500. Its max range is that of Fragor's Jump AoE.

 

Proof of range: 

Radial Blast

 

Fragor jump attack:

 

While the Fragor jump attack doesn't knock down Runners while they're in their self exploding animation, it does, however affect them with elemental effects, such as North Wind's slow and Molting Impact's fire within Fragor's AoE. It has 100% KD on Ancients and all other factions, sans Shockwave Moa that apparently can't be KD'd when doing its stomping animation, skill or not.

 

Fragor AoE + charge attack > S#&$ty AoE KD.

[TraumaHunter]

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/46699-de-i-love-you-i-want-to-hear-from-you-more/

[fishworshipper]

Any frame. Really. Mag can tank better than Rhino? She can walk up a room, cast her 2 and calmly shoot things from the middle of the room without dying? And Volt. And Ash, Banshee, Saryn. Really.

He's not useless without full invulnerability Iron Skin, and it will probably be rebuffed, though not to full invulnerability for as long as it was before. He still has crowd control AND tanking. Who else has that? Frost. Guess what, he's the other tank warframe. And Ember, to a point, but Ember's skills are more close ranged and/or situational (i.e. fire only really does good damage against infested), and many people don't know the true value of Overheat.

Mag: Walk into room. Press 4. Walk out of room.

Volt: Speed and shield.

Ash: Invisibility and the "Kill everything in the room" button.

Banshee: First ability for instant knockdown.

Saryn: Moult.

Don't even get me started.

[goozilla]

I have. My Rhino still plays beautifully. He's not my main but I have tried him after the nerf, it's different but not inferior. Plays much the same as Frost, minus the one hit kill that is Avalanche, but with a lot more knock down. Still need to worry less about taking fire than non-tank frames, even without using Iron Skin, simply because he has over 900 shields.

 

Rhino is now played like an inferior Excalibur.

 

I might as well play Excalibur.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

Comparing Rhino's Charge to Excalibur's Slash Dash, Excalibur is an offensive/mobile frame, of course the damage is higher. Rhino is a tank/CC-frame. His charge should maybe knock down enemies, but the damage doesn't need to be higher.

Can't speak about Trinity, but I've used the others, so I've gotta comment here.

It's not just the damage. It's the range. And the AOE. And how charge will often get stuck on the first row of enemies, just like dash.

Comparing Rhino's Iron Skin to Frost's Snow Globe. Snow Globe doesn't reduce the damage Frost takes, only incoming projectiles and again, outside of defense missions, it is a lot less usable.

Snowglobe completely negates all ranged attacks on Frost (and teammates) provided they're inside the globe. Melee attacks are stymied by the fact that every enemy inside the globe takes an immediate chilled debuff.

It's also extremely useful at any time when Frost is under fire. Enemy shooting at you? Drop a globe. You want to go melee? Drop a globe to reduce the opportunity they have to shoot at you. Enemy in melee? Drop a globe, watch them slow down and melee them right back.

Comparing Rhino's Iron Skin to Ember's Overheat. While I think that Iron Skin should nerf the damage from disruptors and toxics, it makes more sense that Overheat does that, seeing as Ember is the infested-bane warframe. Their weakness is fire and she's the fire frame. I mean, come on. Also, Rhino has a lot more shields and health, even if the damage reduction is currently lower.

This isn't much of a refutation here. Overheat is currently strictly better than IS. It can give better DR with a focus mod, it has a damage aura, and it blocks the status effects that IS used to. Even if the last point is fixed, it'll still be better.

90% of the biggest complaints about Rhino's nerf apply only to one scenario. High level/wave defense missions. And that is NOT the only thing to do in the game. Sure, it's currently the only scaling difficulty, but we're getting more stuff in Update 8, and Defense missions are cool, but other than challenging yourself, there's no real incentive in going past wave 15/20, the rewards don't get much better as of now.

Any high level mission. Like I said before, I tried a Ceres alert a few hours ago. I popped IS and was nearly gunned down by two lancers and a trooper when I sprinted towards them to melee. Three mooks ate through my 80% DR in no time. Four at a time would've killed me.

I do agree that Iron Skin should be rebuffed, maybe short duration full invulnerability or higher % damage reduction and perhaps more range on Rhino's crowd controlling skills, but people need to get a bit outside their comfort zone and appreciate there is more than one thing to do in the game.

You say this as though most people only use one warframe. I regularly run with Excal (Prime), Frost, and Nyx.

[fishworshipper]

Rhino is now played like an inferior Excalibur.

 

I might as well play Excalibur.

Ohai goo!

[Ledath]

Guys, anyone noticed that not only banshee can be hurt during casting? My ember just die casting WoF, is this a bug? or now every long casting power has no invulnerability?

Edited May 19, 2013 by Ledath

[DAWGUNITALPHA]

So hey about no invincibility being more of a challenge? I just got stunlocked by a group of ancients. Disruptors and toxics of course. I'd get revived and the second my frame would stand up. Stunlocked again, disrupted, poisoned, dead.

 

This would not have been an issue if I could have used my ultimate to escape prior, or anything really. Or if they even gave us a brief three to five second grace period to escape. This whole "LOL CHALLENGE NO INVINCIBILITY" mentality is awful and leads to things like awfully designed enemies, like disruptors and rollers.

[goozilla]

Any frame. Really. Mag can tank better than Rhino? She can walk up a room, cast her 2 and calmly shoot things from the middle of the room without dying? And Volt. And Ash, Banshee, Saryn. Really.

He's not useless without full invulnerability Iron Skin, and it will probably be rebuffed, though not to full invulnerability for as long as it was before. He still has crowd control AND tanking. Who else has that? Frost. Guess what, he's the other tank warframe. And Ember, to a point, but Ember's skills are more close ranged and/or situational (i.e. fire only really does good damage against infested), and many people don't know the true value of Overheat.

Bro, lemee link you to my post. 

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/46101-may-17th-hot-topic-constructive-feedback-vs-hyperbole/?p=473384

 

Mag can tank better than Rhino on ranged bosses. Put on Bullet Attractor, and watch as the boss shoots himself, herself, itself in the face. Ember's Fire Blast DoT has been doing 100 damage consistently against Grineer in Ceres and Corpus on Pluto. Her World on Fire is now affected by Focus, letting her waltz around as a ~500 DoT nuke. Guess what? Focus stacks with Overheat, granting her 91% Damage redux, along with another 75 damage DoT, before resistance. You're a tank/DPSer all at the same time.

 

Edit: Gimped CC with gimped tanking doesn't make a great frame.

Edited May 19, 2013 by goozilla

[Gregio]

Can't speak about Trinity, but I've used the others, so I've gotta comment here.

It's not just the damage. It's the range. And the AOE. And how charge will often get stuck on the first row of enemies, just like dash.

I did mention the range should be increased somewhere in my first or subsequent posts.

Snowglobe completely negates all ranged attacks on Frost (and teammates) provided they're inside the globe. Melee attacks are stymied by the fact that every enemy inside the globe takes an immediate chilled debuff.

It's also extremely useful at any time when Frost is under fire. Enemy shooting at you? Drop a globe. You want to go melee? Drop a globe to reduce the opportunity they have to shoot at you. Enemy in melee? Drop a globe, watch them slow down and melee them right back.

It's useful, yes, but you're restricted to the globe, you can never cast Snow Globe and move on, or you cast, kill, move, cast, move kill, kinda boring. It is handy, and very tanky, but it's not ultimate or anything.

This isn't much of a refutation here. Overheat is currently strictly better than IS. It can give better DR with a focus mod, it has a damage aura, and it blocks the status effects that IS used to. Even if the last point is fixed, it'll still be better.

I agree. However, Rhino has higher base stats and 14x higher armor. If Iron Skin was brought up to par with Overheat and also received disrupt/toxic reductions, it'd be superior for a tank. Why? You can still be KB'd in Overheat. You can't with Iron Skin, well, at the moment... but you shouldn't.

Any high level mission. Like I said before, I tried a Ceres alert a few hours ago. I popped IS and was nearly gunned down by two lancers and a trooper when I sprinted towards them to melee. Three mooks ate through my 80% DR in no time. Four at a time would've killed me.

Why would you run up and melee a guy with a shotgun when he has backup? If you were playing PvP, would you run in at the guy with the Hek when there's two others shooting at you? While I get your point, I don't usually run in to kill more than two enemies with melee. Only in Infested missions. Running up at 3-4 level 40 Grineer that are shooting you will get you killed with Ember, Frost or Rhino all the same. Trinity in solo play.... well, that's another story.

You say this as though most people only use one warframe. I regularly run with Excal (Prime), Frost, and Nyx.

My point was not "Go play something other than Rhino." but rather "Go play something other than Defense missions". I just did an alert on Sedna and I was farming Phorid (Eris boss) for Nyx blueprints, Rhino still performs very well in high level planets. I move in killing stuff, cast Iron Skin if there's too many, take cover if my shields are going down. Being a tank doesn't mean you can jump in a room blind and tank hits forever. Specially not in solo play, you can in a team if you have a good team, they'll have your back and kill everything.

My answers to you in bold.

Also, I have 320% redirection, maxed Focus and Overheat, and if I walk into a room on Pluto with my 550 shields and Overheat on trying to tank things, I'll die just as easily as Rhino with his Iron Skin. Those are high level enemies, damage reduction is more of a panic measure than easy riding. At least Rhino, if he had the same damage reduction would last longer.

@Goozilla

Ember wasn't in my list. Ember is currently pretty tankish, yes, and I DO agree Rhino needs a rebuff, just not as extreme as people have been crying for. And Mag is a better tank situationally. And against a single boss, not a mob of enemies.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Gregio

[Mak_Gohae]

No surprise there.  He's one of the tools that defended the old "Pro" system really hard (ie cash only supercharging to double the upgrade tree on weapons and frames, could only use the 4th ability on frames if you pro'd it).

 

Of course there is no surprise that i dont flip out because i didnt use Rhino only to Iron Skin through the hole stage.

And yes i said that you didnt need all your weapons to have a catalyst back with the old tree system, what's your point?

Edited May 19, 2013 by Mak_Gohae