May 17Th Hot Topic: Constructive Feedback Vs Hyperbole

[goozilla]

My answers to you in bold.

Eris shouldn't even be considered high level, considering its an infested system. 0 resistances and erryone's melee. Go run around in Pluto. You literally play like a gimped Excal. Which is sad because again, I might as well play Excal.

[fishworshipper]

My answers to you in bold.

@Goozilla

Ember wasn't in my list. Ember is currently pretty tankish, yes, and I DO agree Rhino needs a rebuff, just not as extreme as people have been crying for. And Mag is a better tank situationally. And against a single boss, not a mob of enemies.

If they wanted this to be a cover based shooter they would've added cover mechanics.

[Aggh]

Of course there is no surprise that i dont flip out because i didnt use Rhino only to Iron Skin through the hole stage.

And yes i said that you didnt need all your weapons to have a catalyst back with the old tree system, what's your point?

The fact that you still don't understand why that was bad is one of the many reasons no one takes you seriously.

[Zoldizer]

Ok so I read a LOT of the posts here (yes I didn't read them all, maybe 15 pages?)  and didn't see anyone suggest this so my thought:

 

I read a quite few times that most people would use Iron Skin to tank, and especially to help revive downed teammates, but that's all gone due to all the knockbacking, poison immunity, and lack of 100% damage nullification. So I figured.....Hey! Why not make it so Iron Skin DOES give you complete invulnerability, but the god-mode effect only lasts until you ATTACK! (sort of like Shade's cloaking, it goes away when you attack right?). After the first attack, you can have the new stats of 80% damage reduction etc, so you're still tanky. That way, you can actually go safely and revive a teammate, or two, provided you choose not to attack for some time. Plus you can really pull aggro and tank properly, provided you let your team do the killing.

 

I didn't mention anything about skill duration and exact figures seeing as loads of people have already and they did an awesome job a that.
Also this is my first post, so be nice :p

[Gregio]

Eris shouldn't even be considered high level, considering its an infested system. 0 resistances and erryone's melee. Go run around in Pluto. You literally play like a gimped Excal. Which is sad because again, I might as well play Excal.

I just did a defense up to Wave 20 on Europa, Corpus enemies were level 40-50, around Pluto level. It wasn't very hard. I have an Excalibur prime and I can tell you, I play very differently on that than I did on Rhino.

 

If they wanted this to be a cover based shooter they would've added cover mechanics.

Every frame needs to take cover when it's taken too much damage. A tank in any game is simply someone who can take more damage before he has to pull back/be healed. And taking cover is mostly when I solo, when playing in a group, my shields hardly ever go below 500.

[SoulEchelon]

Ok so I read a LOT of the posts here (yes I didn't read them all, maybe 15 pages?)  and didn't see anyone suggest this so my thought:

 

I read a quite few times that most people would use Iron Skin to tank, and especially to help revive downed teammates, but that's all gone due to all the knockbacking, poison immunity, and lack of 100% damage nullification. So I figured.....Hey! Why not make it so Iron Skin DOES give you complete invulnerability, but the god-mode effect only lasts until you ATTACK! (sort of like Shade's cloaking, it goes away when you attack right?). After the first attack, you can have the new stats of 80% damage reduction etc, so you're still tanky. That way, you can actually go safely and revive a teammate, or two, provided you choose not to attack for some time. Plus you can really pull aggro and tank properly, provided you let your team do the killing.

 

I didn't mention anything about skill duration and exact figures seeing as loads of people have already and they did an awesome job a that.

Also this is my first post, so be nice :p

 

A good idea actually, but I think there may be a flaw.

 

Though it forces the Rhino player to not attack, it might still make the game itself far too easier for his teammates. All he'd have to do is pop Iron Skin and stand near a boss while everyone wails on it. I know - that's actually what you're trying to suggest, but unless it uses alot more energy than it does currently, that might be a bit too much for what DE is trying to do.

 

But I will agree - it's a good idea and far more interesting and balanced than outright giving his invulnerability back.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

I did mention the range should be increased somewhere in my first or subsequent posts.

Good. But at the moment it's still a subpar skill.

 

It's useful, yes, but you're restricted to the globe, you can never cast Snow Globe and move on, or you cast, kill, move, cast, move kill, kinda boring. It is handy, and very tanky, but it's not ultimate or anything.

It's basically what IS was except for how you trade mobility for covering an area. You said comparing snow globe and IS was a mistake, but they're actually very similar powers in effect.

 

I agree. However, Rhino has higher base stats and 14x higher armor. If Iron Skin was brought up to par with Overheat and also received disrupt/toxic reductions, it'd be superior for a tank. Why? You can still be KB'd in Overheat. You can't with Iron Skin, well, at the moment... but you shouldn't.

You might want to take a look at this thread before you talk about how IS will be better than Overheat when you fix its stagger resist/poison/disruption resist.

 

Why would you run up and melee a guy with a shotgun when he has backup? If you were playing PvP, would you run in at the guy with the Hek when there's two others shooting at you? While I get your point, I don't usually run in to kill more than two enemies with melee. Only in Infested missions. Running up at 3-4 level 40 Grineer that are shooting you will get you killed with Ember, Frost or Rhino all the same. Trinity in solo play.... well, that's another story.

I did it as a test to see how effective the new IS was, and whether it was worth complaining over, or whether it was much ado about nothing.

As it turns out, I've seen that it's now utterly trash in high level content because when the enemy has high levels, they have such high DPS that even cutting that by 80% does little. The only way to survive is to not get hit in the first place by taking cover. But Rhino can't even do that well, because he's so slow. At least Excal's fast enough to reposition himself.

 

My point was not "Go play something other than Rhino." but rather "Go play something other than Defense missions". I just did an alert on Sedna and I was farming Phorid (Eris boss) for Nyx blueprints, Rhino still performs very well in high level planets. I move in killing stuff, cast Iron Skin if there's too many, take cover if my shields are going down. Being a tank doesn't mean you can jump in a room blind and tank hits forever. Specially not in solo play, you can in a team if you have a good team, they'll have your back and kill everything.

I play practically everything but defense missions, and so far, I have not seen how Rhino performs well at all in high level missions of any stripe. I'm not talking Xini wave 90 here. I'm talking about level 30-40 enemies and how even a couple of them can eat right through IS.

Heck, going to Pluto pretty much forced me to play just like I would with Excal... Except for the fact that I'm so much slower and less mobile, and without all the good powers.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Cpl_Facehugger

[goozilla]

I play practically everything but defense missions, and so far, I have not seen how Rhino performs well at all in high level missions of any stripe. I'm not talking Xini wave 90 here. I'm talking about level 30-40 enemies and how even a couple of them can eat right through IS.

Heck, going to Pluto pretty much forced me to play just like I would with Excal... Except for the fact that I'm so much slower and less mobile, and without all the good powers.

 

THIS MAN GETS IT. Ever since the nerf, I found no good situation to use Iron Skin effectively. Just dash out with Rhino Charge like an Excal with slash dash, or ground pound things into pancakes with Fragor jump smashes.

[Gregio]

It's basically what IS was except for how you trade mobility for covering an area. You said comparing snow globe and IS was a mistake, but they're actually very similar powers in effect.

 That difference between mobility and covering an area is a pretty big one, hence why I said comparing the skills as though having the same function was a little off. They are both tank frames though, so, yes, both skills are tanky.

 

 

You might want to take a look at this thread before you talk about how IS will be better than Overheat when you fix its stagger resist/poison/disruption resist.

All those pretty numbers he brought up would go down with my suggestion. By Iron Skin being brought up to par with overheat, I mean having the same damage reduction and stagger resist/poison/disruption resist as Overheat, the difference being, Overheat deals damage and Iron Skin resists stagger/KD.

 

 

As it turns out, I've seen that it's now utterly trash in high level content because when the enemy has high levels, they have such high DPS that even cutting that by 80% does little. The only way to survive is to not get hit in the first place by taking cover. But Rhino can't even do that well, because he's so slow. At least Excal's fast enough to reposition himself.

I did Corpus defense just me and my girlfriend with an Ember, until the enemies were at about Pluto level and it wasn't very hard. I'll try Hades or something in a moment, but so far, Iron Skin needs to be buffed up to par with Overheat, but it's not impossible or anything.

It's beyond discussion that IS needs an un-nerf/rebuff, but I think people are being a little too hard on DE for an update that's been out for less than 48 hours. They probably won't fix it until Update 8, but I'm sure they get the point by now and Rhino isn't useless as people have been saying.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Gregio

[Mak_Gohae]

The fact that you still don't understand why that was bad is one of the many reasons no one takes you seriously.

But you didnt need Catalyst in every weapon.

I did it without one single Catalyst on a weapon for a loooooong time.

You want me to show you a pic?

Cause i recently posted a pic making fun that back in the day Orokin alerts were actually REALLY rare and the pic shows that none of my weapons had Catalysts on. And not having any didnt stop me from playing.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Mak_Gohae

[Aggh]

But you didnt need Catalyst in every weapon.

I did it without one single Catalyst on a weapon for a loooooong time.

You want me to show you a pic?

Cause i recently posted a pic making fun that back in the day Orokin alerts were actually REALLY rare and the pic shows that none of my weapons had Catalysts on. And not having any didnt stop me from playing.

No one cares about how you play :|

[Hezekiah]

I play as Rhino, he was the second frame I crafted and is currently one of my level 30 frames.

 

I died as Rhino with the iron-skin ability in use

 

Personally I use Iron-skin most of the time if wading into a swarm of any enemy type. The invulnerability granted was perfect for "Thinning Hordes" of enemies without walking away limping or with a flashing 20 hp remaining.  Irons skin really for me was a great way to "hack and slash/ defend when completely overwhelmed (or just plain Tank). 

 

My suggestion would be to restore 100% invincibility to the highest rank of the mod, but diminish it for lower ranks.  Like at 0 the ability would provide 50%, at level 1 = 70%, level 2 = 85% and finally at level 3 100%/invulnerable, but keep a set duration of like 5-10 seconds or something.

 

I agree with the idea that invulnerability (even for a few seconds) was a bit OP for the initial mod ability, but making it something that you have to work for, or fuse up would mean that it still retains its basic usefulness with an equally beneficial reward and wouldn't lead to a Rhino /tank that is still squishy with maxed out powers.

 

Thank you

[goozilla]

 

It's beyond discussion that IS needs an un-nerf/rebuff, but I think people are being a little too hard on DE for an update that's been out for less than 48 hours. They probably won't fix it until Update 8, but I'm sure they get the point by now and Rhino isn't useless as people have been saying.

You still don't get it, do you? Without Iron Skin's invul, he's just a gimped Excalibur, which obviously makes him useless. Because I could play Excal if I wanted to play like an Excal.

 

And don't give me that "I have an Excal prime" bullS#&$. I do too, and the only real way to get through Pluto solo is to PLAY LIKE AN EXCAL.

 

I hope you get my point.

[Mak_Gohae]

No one cares about how you play :|

 

Is not about how i play is about what i did.

You didnt need to have a catalyst in every weapon during the Tree System era and i provide myself as an example.

Just like you can actually use the other abilities of Rhino, you guys have this all of nothing mentality that if its not your way then it's wrong.

Play the game and adjust and im sure if it's THAT bad it will be changed.

Like Rebs said in the OP, people were flipping out about it and it was a high probability that they didnt even actually test it.

So go test it and work it differently and see what you can do.

Some of the stuff seem to be bugs so wait till it's changed.

[Gregio]

You still don't get it, do you? Without Iron Skin's invul, he's just a gimped Excalibur, which obviously makes him useless. Because I could play Excal if I wanted to play like an Excal.

 

And don't give me that "I have an Excal prime" bullS#&$. I do too, and the only real way to get through Pluto solo is to PLAY LIKE AN EXCAL.

 

I hope you get my point.

I got your point, since the first post.

I just don't agree.

Also, my Excalibur prime comment was simply because I have a prime, not a reg excalibur, and I can him and Rhino on Pluto and I play them very differently. I didn't try my excalibur again since the patch but I did run Hades - Pluto with my Rhino just now and I basically played Rhino the same I play... well, Frost. One-shotting most things with my kraken from a reasonable distance and casting iron skin when 4-5 enemies are in view/shooting at me and still shooting at them. No enemy really keeps shooting me for more than 2 seconds. With Frost, I'd just cast snow globe when a big crowd shows up and pick out all the moas, since the crewmen aren't very dangerous.

With Excalibur, I mostly ran around with my Hek doing jump-slash dashes to move around pretty fast and shooting things from vantage positions in close range.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Gregio

[Rexdeorum]

Is not about how i play is about what i did.

You didnt need to have a catalyst in every weapon during the Tree System era and i provide myself as an example.

Just like you can actually use the other abilities of Rhino, you guys have this all of nothing mentality that if its not your way then it's wrong.

Play the game and adjust and im sure if it's THAT bad it will be changed.

Like Rebs said in the OP, people were flipping out about it and it was a high probability that they didnt even actually test it.

So go test it and work it differently and see what you can do.

Some of the stuff seem to be bugs so wait till it's changed.

I tested in each level and I honestly did not like it, the 80% reduction was useless with multiple enemies shooting at you regardless of what level mobs you were up against will easily tear you down.

 

I just want Rhino back to the way he was before this update. Then we'll all pretend like this never happened and go back to playing warframe, nothing changed, nothing harmed.

[SoulEchelon]

I'm still kind of confused about all this, really.

 

Everyone keeps saying the game's easy.

 

They nerf a Rhino's iron skin, which definitely was one of the main reasons why this game was too easy.

 

Everyone rages because now the game's too hard for Rhino users, who still get 80% damage reduction while using Iron Skin and have a base 150 armor.

 

Now I understand, balances are needed and DE is obviously listening. But...what is with this dual mindset going on?

 

 

 

Is not about how i play is about what i did.

You didnt need to have a catalyst in every weapon during the Tree System era and i provide myself as an example.

Just like you can actually use the other abilities of Rhino, you guys have this all of nothing mentality that if its not your way then it's wrong.

Play the game and adjust and im sure if it's THAT bad it will be changed.

Like Rebs said in the OP, people were flipping out about it and it was a high probability that they didnt even actually test it.

So go test it and work it differently and see what you can do.

Some of the stuff seem to be bugs so wait till it's changed.

 

I have to agree. People adjusted to Nyx's nerf, and she's still an excellent crowd controller. Hell I used her just last night in Xini. No troubles whatsoever - I just had to keep in mind how long my Chaos was up and when to re-activate it.

Edited May 19, 2013 by SoulEchelon

[Masikish]

Iron Skin was overnerfed. 80% damage reduction feels fine, But taking full damage from Toxics and being energy drain'd by Distruptors? With that there is NO reason to play Rhino over any other Warframe, everything he can - some1 else can do better - aoe, cc, tanking - and since rhino is supposed to be a Tank , give us immunity vs toxic/disruptor/knockback back again...

[KvotheTheArcane1]

I'm still kind of confused about all this, really.

 

Everyone keeps saying the game's easy.

 

They nerf a Rhino's iron skin, which definitely was one of the main reasons why this game was too easy.

 

Everyone rages because now the game's too hard for Rhino users, who still get 80% damage reduction while using Iron Skin and have a base 150 armor.

 

Now I understand, balances are needed and DE is obviously listening. But...what is with this dual mindset going on?

It's not that the game is too easy with rhino, but the fact the only thing that the rhino was good at/only good ability was iron skin.

[Zarozian]

I tested in each level and I honestly did not like it, the 80% reduction was useless with multiple enemies shooting at you regardless of what level mobs you were up against will easily tear you down.

 

I just want Rhino back to the way he was before this update. Then we'll all pretend like this never happened and go back to playing warframe, nothing changed, nothing harmed.

I tried it too and I have level 12 redirection mod, the 80% really does nothing against enemies that shoot at you with weapons that have fast fire rates, add like 10 of them in a room and it could easily mow down Rhino with a maxed out Iron Skin mod, also the duration is exactly 8 seconds, that's way too short for something that just got nerf. So I also want Rhino back to the way he was before the update, or even better, give the big guy a buff. Hes a mastery rank 2 warframe for a reason right?

[Zarozian]

I'm still kind of confused about all this, really.

 

Everyone keeps saying the game's easy.

 

They nerf a Rhino's iron skin, which definitely was one of the main reasons why this game was too easy.

 

Everyone rages because now the game's too hard for Rhino users, who still get 80% damage reduction while using Iron Skin and have a base 150 armor.

 

Now I understand, balances are needed and DE is obviously listening. But...what is with this dual mindset going on?

 

 

 

 

I have to agree. People adjusted to Nyx's nerf, and she's still an excellent crowd controller. Hell I used her just last night in Xini. No troubles whatsoever - I just had to keep in mind how long my Chaos was up and when to re-activate it.

No one is raging that it's too hard. We're raging because rhino can't fulfill his role as the heaviest warframe and the "tank tank" of the group. Now hes no longer a tank. People will start choosing Frost over Rhino for the tank role now.

 

Hell I remember you. You were bashing Rhino on another thread a long time ago! 

Edited May 19, 2013 by Zarozian

[SoulEchelon]

It's not that the game is too easy with rhino, but the fact the only thing that the rhino was good at/only good ability was iron skin.

 

I beg to differ. His other abilities are very useful as well, and Iron Skin is still good - just un-OP'ified. Rebecca stated clearly that the lack of immunity was a glitch and that it was going to be fixed, so that's something that shouldn't be taken into account.

 

Rhino should most definitely be a tank. But he shouldn't be invincible and should be able to be killed. If he couldn't be killed, then why play any other frame if you want to go with pure efficiency?

 

 

 

No one is raging that it's too hard. We're raging because rhino can't fulfill his role as the heaviest warframe and the "tank tank" of the group. Now hes no longer a tank. People will start choosing Frost over Rhino for the tank role now.

 

Hell I remember you. You were bashing Rhino on another thread a long time ago! 

 

I wasn't bashing Rhino. Why would I outright attack a warframe? Stating an opinion that is against your own isn't bashing.

Edited May 19, 2013 by SoulEchelon

[Zarozian]

I beg to differ. His other abilities are very useful as well, and Iron Skin is still good - just un-OP'ified. Rebecca stated clearly that the lack of immunity was a glitch and that it was going to be fixed, so that's something that shouldn't be taken into account.

 

Rhino should most definitely be a tank. But he shouldn't be invincible and should be able to be killed. If he couldn't be killed, then why play any other frame if you want to go with pure efficiency?

 

 

 

 

I wasn't bashing Rhino. Why would I outright attack a warframe? Stating an opinion that is against your own isn't bashing.

You don't get it do you? Rhino is supposed to be a tank.

 

What are you suggesting that they should do to Rhino? Do you even own a Rhino?

[SoulEchelon]

You don't get it do you? Rhino is supposed to be a tank.

 

...Uh..

 

 

 

Rhino should most definitely be a tank. But he shouldn't be invincible and should be able to be killed. If he couldn't be killed, then why play any other frame if you want to go with pure efficiency?

 

And yes, I own a Rhino. I don't use him as much as the others because he's not my kind of play style. Slow and lumbering isn't my thing; though Rush does help alot.

[Mak_Gohae]

I tested in each level and I honestly did not like it, the 80% reduction was useless with multiple enemies shooting at you regardless of what level mobs you were up against will easily tear you down.

 

I just want Rhino back to the way he was before this update. Then we'll all pretend like this never happened and go back to playing warframe, nothing changed, nothing harmed.

 

I said adjust.... adjust doesnt meant stand there and do the same exact thing.

You cannot do the same exact thing because the power now behaves differently, you can no longer stand in front of the mob and press shoot or swing. Maybe now is the time for some of you folks to use some of those other powers you neglected.