May 17Th Hot Topic: Constructive Feedback Vs Hyperbole

[Zonzai]

“Oh! We just wanted to invite challenge into his play style, I think 100% invincibility was a little strong, what does the community suggest?” Scott

“Suggest? Hold on, let me check… oh. Nothing, actually, they just wanted to let us know that we ruined him and are doomed.”

 

I don't mean to come off as aggressive here but I thought I would share with you the perspective of a long time Rhino player.  You guys nerfed the primary tanking ability of a frame that only does one thing that two or three other frames don't do far better - tank.  

 

I forget who said it (Jeff Strain maybe?) but I heard what a dev said once, and in my limited experience as a modder I agree, an online community is great for giving you feedback when you've done something wrong but they're not always the best at suggesting fixes.

 

Taking that into consideration, I've suggested increasing Rhino's movement speed so he can be a PBAoE/melee tank.

 

 

- Trinity is now “a better tank.” What does this mean for the overall balance of the frames?

 

Frost and Trinity have always been better tanks.  At least, that is what I gather from what I've played with them and what people keep telling me.  'Now' some people are saying Ember is.  I don't know about that personally.  If I could I would buy all four and test them for you.

 

 

- As Thor, a community mod, has summarized: "In essence, people seem concerned that what's happening is things are getting balanced towards an even, but weak, playing field". What are your thoughts on that?

Again, in my experience Rhino was never "better" at tanking than Trinity or Frost.  He had a really great "Oh ***" button and some okay PBAoE.  Now, he has an okay buff but it isn't a great "oh ****" button.  My greatest concern is that this game is getting balanced towards a solo game.  That amazing "oh ****" button made Rhino valuable to a group.

 

- Not on the topic of Rhino, but Banshee not being invulnerable during Soundquake, can we talk about that?

 

I've never played Banshee so I am not qualified to say anything. 

 

[Zarozian]

I don't mean to come off as aggressive here but I thought I would share with you the perspective of a long time Rhino player.  You guys nerfed the primary tanking ability of a frame that only does one thing that two or three other frames don't do far better - tank.  

 

I forget who said it (Jeff Strain maybe?) but I heard what a dev said once, and in my limited experience as a modder I agree, an online community is great for giving you feedback when you've done something wrong but they're not always the best at suggesting fixes.

 

Taking that into consideration, I've suggested increasing Rhino's movement speed so he can be a PBAoE/melee tank.

 

 

 

Frost and Trinity have always been better tanks.  At least, that is what I gather from what I've played with them and what people keep telling me.  'Now' some people are saying Ember is.  I don't know about that personally.  If I could I would buy all four and test them for you.

 

 

Again, in my experience Rhino was never "better" at tanking than Trinity or Frost.  He had a really great "Oh ***" button and some okay PBAoE.  Now, he has an okay buff but it isn't a great "oh ****" button.  My greatest concern is that this game is getting balanced towards a solo game.  That amazing "oh ****" button made Rhino valuable to a group.

 

 

I've never played Banshee so I am not qualified to say anything. 

 

Wow.....

 

Well said. *claps*

[goozilla]

 

Everyone rages because now the game's too hard for Rhino users, who still get 80% damage reduction while using Iron Skin and have a base 150 armor.

 

 

Armor only affects health. Health isn't recoverable, unless by containers dropping red orbs.

I am NOT taking with my health just to pick up a poor sap.

[Kadishia]

100% invulnerability. Doesn't that seem abit OP?

 

I don't wanna start a flaming post here.

[Runzu]

The uncommon materials are really annoying to farm. Namely Alloy Plate, Rubedo.

Plastids seem fine as their amount of use and quantity used seems to work for their availability.

The Rare ones are even easier to get as you beat a boss, you almost always get the one you want.

You can run through a mission opening all boxes, do two objectives, and walk out with 21 Rubedo... great. 1079 to go.

When you turn everything into a blueprint and use uncommon Alloy plate as a bottleneck, you will get a lot of bored players running Venus over and over again.

 

Can't you do something with the overabundance of Common materials? like a alchemy ratio turning multiple common unit amounts into a uncommon. example:

30 Ferrite + 15 Polymer + 5 salavage = 1 Alloy.

10 Circuits + 35 Nano + 5 salavage = 1 Plastid.

30 Circuits + 15 Ferrite + 5 salavage = 1 Rubedo

 

Or give something to the Alerts with no "?" reward. Like boosted resorces. If The alert is called "Rubedo depot discovered" it should have Rubedo no matter its location.

Or its is a "Grineer armory discovered", its filled with Alloy Plate.

 

This sounds like a reasonable thing to add. Definitely should be implemented, I think. It'd be nice if the name of alerts mission actually corresponded with resources available in the mission. Such as Rubedo Depot actually having rubedo. :P

[Zarozian]

...Uh..

 

 

 

And yes, I own a Rhino. I don't use him as much as the others because he's not my kind of play style. Slow and lumbering isn't my thing; though Rush does help alot.

Dude. If your play style isn't a tank or a berserker. Then why are you even here? Rhino is a tank, hes supposed to be able to take more damage than other frames, you're trying to turn him into a regular frame and trash his primary tanking abilities, and don't give me that Rhino Stop bullS#&$ because that skill hardly gets used because of the energy cost. The other 2 skils and just knock down skills. It won't stop toxic ancients from hitting you and it won't prevent all the ones shooting at you from a long distance from killing you. A tank does not take cover, we charge in and take down the big guys and we're able to do things that other frames can't in desperate situations when we're all being surrounded and overrun.

 

I want Rhino back to the way he was before and I can smell people who haven't played the nerfed Rhino yet in a area with dozens of enemies shooting at you and trying to use Iron Skin which hardly does anything with that 8 second duration. A total waste of energy, and it didn't even matter what level the enemies were, as long as there was a S#&$ ton of them shooting at Rhino with fast weapons, hes a goner.

 

In short. Frost and his Snow globe would make a better tank than Rhino, and that's just shameful because Rhino requires a mastery rank 2 to get and his description entitles him as the "heaviest of all warframes". 

 

I want Rhino back the way he was before the nerf. I will repeat myself over and over if I have to.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Zarozian

[Rexdeorum]

100% invulnerability. Doesn't that seem abit OP?

 

I don't wanna start a flaming post here.

It's not if you're a tank, and it doesn't last forever.

 

Get out because most of the people here will burn you alive if you aren't defending Rhino, or if you don't own a Rhino or have tried one out in the higher and lower levels against large mobs of enemies shooting at you, after the nerf. He can't fulfill his role as the main tanker without his Iron Skin ability giving him his invulnerability.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Rexdeorum

[fishworshipper]

100% invulnerability. Doesn't that seem abit OP?

 

I don't wanna start a flaming post here.

It SEEMS OP, then you realize that there are enemies that can OHKO you, powers that reflect all damage while keeping you godmode, etc coupled with the fact that all his other abilities might as well not exist and the fact he's the slowest 'Frame and it's pretty effectively balanced.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

100% invulnerability. Doesn't that seem abit OP?

 

I don't wanna start a flaming post here.

depends on how long. 1 minute is OP obv, but that depends on the cost. 100 energy of your 150?kinda. but 15 seconds for 50 energy, that's not really broken, especially you don't have any good damage skills, AND it's mainly a PvE game anyways. Slightly OP things should be overlooked.

[Zarozian]

100% invulnerability. Doesn't that seem abit OP?

 

I don't wanna start a flaming post here.

Wouldn't a lot of things seem OP if this was PVP? Well it's not PVP so it's not as OP as you think, it's not like it can last forever, ancient disruptors can still get you in between.

 

Then it's over if you're being swarmed by everything else, like toxics and those annoying barf things and leapers.

 

Also judging from how everyone else responded to you. I think it's best if you get out of here.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Zarozian

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Wouldn't a lot of things seem OP if this was PVP? Well it's not PVP so it's not as OP as you think, it's not like it can last forever, ancient disruptors can still get you in between.

well they can't, if you spam click the activate button (invinc during animation), but you are limited by energy.

[SoulEchelon]

Dude. If your play style isn't a tank or a berserker. Then why are you even here?

 

Because I love this game and my input is just as important as everyone else's. Don't belittle people just because they don't have your same outlook. I want Rhino to be the frame people go to for Tanking, but I also want him to be balanced and fun. I didn't enjoy playing him not only because he was kind of sluggish, but also because I didn't have much fun being able to ignore all damage almost constantly. According to Rebecca, Steve stated that they wanted to make Rhino tanky, but still a challenge to play - just like all the other warframes. That's what I want too. Just because I'm not a diehard fan of Rhino doesn't mean I don't care about how he'll develop. That kind of closemindedness on your part is what starts flame wars. Stop attacking everyone and start opening your mind. We all have opinions and suggestions, and I suggest you learn to respect them.

[goozilla]

well they can't, if you spam click the activate button (invinc during animation), but you are limited by energy.

 

You are no longer invincible during animation, except through shockwaves. Only Rhino Charge and Slash Dash have invul.

 

Edit: And Trinity's Link. But that's a given.

Edited May 19, 2013 by goozilla

[Worira]

I didn't enjoy playing him not only because he was kind of sluggish, but also because I didn't have much fun being able to ignore all damage almost constantly.

(emphasis mine)

 

Good thing pretty much everyone agrees that the fix needed is to duration or cost!

[KvotheTheArcane1]

You are no longer invincible during animation, except through shockwaves. Only Rhino Charge and Slash Dash have invul.

 

Edit: And Trinity's Link. But that's a given.

well, you could before this update.

[Zarozian]

Because I love this game and my input is just as important as everyone else's. Don't belittle people just because they don't have your same outlook. I want Rhino to be the frame people go to for Tanking, but I also want him to be balanced and fun. I didn't enjoy playing him not only because he was kind of sluggish, but also because I didn't have much fun being able to ignore all damage almost constantly. According to Rebecca, Steve stated that they wanted to make Rhino tanky, but still a challenge to play - just like all the other warframes. That's what I want too. Just because I'm not a diehard fan of Rhino doesn't mean I don't care about how he'll develop. That kind of closemindedness on your part is what starts flame wars. Stop attacking everyone and start opening your mind. We all have opinions and suggestions, and I suggest you learn to respect them.

Alright. Do you really care about Rhino? How can someone he hardly plays Rhino and says Rhino isn't his style even have an opinion here? 

 

You don't even understand how the rest of us feel. You had no attachments to this frame. You don't know his little ups and downs that made him great and fun to play. 

Edited May 19, 2013 by Zarozian

[GrayFox]

My thoughts:

We all know the online sessions randomly connect people, hence randomly forms a squad regardless of their equipped warframe. It's not everytime you'll get to have a Loki, an Ember, a Saryn that can lure/tank for the squad (given the situation that it calls for them to do so for assassination, a tank etc) but then again, as someone mentioned, not everyone really plays their warframes for their supposed "role", they play their own variant of it, that's where player preference kicks in. What Rhino ultimately stands out from those is, no matter how a player may use Rhino, regardless of the mission type, once that Iron Skin gets used, it does the job, may the Rhino player be a one trick pony for Iron Skin or uses the other 3 skills, the squad can experience Rhino's use.

 

What I'm getting here is that aside from the posts that are from both "fans" and veterans in playing Rhino, it also affects the other players as well. Rhino's "ace in the hole" as mentioned, especially in online sessions where compared to cbt1/cbt2, that has little to no communication in the squad, the squad ultimately knows that Rhino can get aggro/tank if there is a need of doing so, acting accordingly as the mission goes.

 

I personally had a fun time with playing Rhino (using it and playing with other players that use Rhino as well) because I do know what I have/what I can expect from it, as mentioned as well, it's a straight up "in your face" type of warframe that can duke it out with a mob. If the playerbase was so hooked on "role" playing, yes, this change might have a different reaction of being received, but then again, with rushers and all, you can barely see a Loki that will use a decoy during a sabotage/spy mission (regardless if the mob is at higher levels), an Ember that will actually go up front and "tank", a Trinity that can perform what Rhino can do 24/7 = Be in the faces of the mob, whack them down, and if it doesn't kill em, either go back or IS again.

 

For me Rhino, with how the community played it may it be solo, a public squad or a clan squad, has solidified its place as a Tank, this change of 80% damage reduc kind of ticks off the scales for Trinity, as both WF's gets direct damage now, Trinity gets the upper hand on that with an energy loop and a heal (yes I know the heal packs a hefty energy price) still, I'd like to go for the Shield/HP Buffer that was suggested, where Iron Skin gets a separate Hit point counter of sorts, having the knockdown, leech, disruptor, toxic immunity.

[VanillaRegal]

People just don't seem to realise quite what is meant by "BETA" they seem to think, partially thanks to other companies using open betas as soft-launches for practically finished products or demos of same, that anything in open beta should be finished and just have little bits of content added.

 

This is clearly not the case with DE, Warframe is NOT finished, and, hopefully, won't be for quite a while so DE can continue to adjust and add to it and make it truly awesome. The underlying point though: WARFRAME IS UNFINISHED, NOT FEATURE-COMPLETE, STILL IN DEVELOPEMENT. There WILL be changes, there WILL be over-powered features that WILL be nerfed, your signed the EULA, it's not DE's fault if you didn't read it, stop complaining. It's free. No one forced you to buy ANYTHING. You chose to donate your time to TESTING a BETA.

Well, it's more of an Open ALPHA than anything given how many features change on almost a weekly basis. It's nice to look forward to new things, even if the old stuff is made obsolete or harder to achieve results with. I'm looking forward to another weapon balance to see if some of the under performing weapons will be brought up to speed instead of the powerful stuff being smashed down to the level of everything else. I'm excited when new things are announced and find myself looking forward to Friday a lot more than I used to just to see what changes have been done. I actually end up feeling sad if there's nothing new or the post is not made until late at night.

[Zarozian]

My thoughts:

We all know the online sessions randomly connect people, hence randomly forms a squad regardless of their equipped warframe. It's not everytime you'll get to have a Loki, an Ember, a Saryn that can lure/tank for the squad (given the situation that it calls for them to do so for assassination, a tank etc) but then again, as someone mentioned, not everyone really plays their warframes for their supposed "role", they play their own variant of it, that's where player preference kicks in. What Rhino ultimately stands out from those is, no matter how a player may use Rhino, regardless of the mission type, once that Iron Skin gets used, it does the job, may the Rhino player be a one trick pony for Iron Skin or uses the other 3 skills, the squad can experience Rhino's use.

 

What I'm getting here is that aside from the posts that are from both "fans" and veterans in playing Rhino, it also affects the other players as well. Rhino's "ace in the hole" as mentioned, especially in online sessions where compared to cbt1/cbt2, that has little to no communication in the squad, the squad ultimately knows that Rhino can get aggro/tank if there is a need of doing so, acting accordingly as the mission goes.

 

I personally had a fun time with playing Rhino (using it and playing with other players that use Rhino as well) because I do know what I have/what I can expect from it, as mentioned as well, it's a straight up "in your face" type of warframe that can duke it out with a mob. If the playerbase was so hooked on "role" playing, yes, this change might have a different reaction of being received, but then again, with rushers and all, you can barely see a Loki that will use a decoy during a sabotage/spy mission (regardless if the mob is at higher levels), an Ember that will actually go up front and "tank", a Trinity that can perform what Rhino can do 24/7 = Be in the faces of the mob, whack them down, and if it doesn't kill em, either go back or IS again.

 

For me Rhino, with how the community played it may it be solo, a public squad or a clan squad, has solidified its place as a Tank, this change of 80% damage reduc kind of ticks off the scales for Trinity, as both WF's gets direct damage now, Trinity gets the upper hand on that with an energy loop and a heal (yes I know the heal packs a hefty energy price) still, I'd like to go for the Shield/HP Buffer that was suggested, where Iron Skin gets a separate Hit point counter of sorts, having the knockdown, leech, disruptor, toxic immunity.

I like what you said, but for your idea to work they would have to remove the duration and make it last until the counter runs out, and it can't lose counter from each bullet either otherwise it's completely pointless......

 

I honestly still prefer it as it was before the nerf.

[Onfi]

I don't care about Rhino at all.

 

I care about credits being muscled out by Platinum. Free players (while you SHOULD be supporting this great game) are becoming the little guy no one cares about.

[VanillaRegal]

Alright. Do you really care about Rhino? How can someone he hardly plays Rhino and says Rhino isn't his style even have an opinion here? 

 

You don't even understand how the rest of us feel. You had no attachments to this frame. You don't know his little ups and downs that made him great and fun to play. 

Rhino had all kinds of quirks that made it undesirable but still a blast to play. After all the hate and anger and rage, perhaps it would be best to just move onto another frame and see what the hype about them is about before it's taken away. Like the Banshee, I was glad to be able to clear rooms as her. The chunk of Energy taken was well worth the use to my team. Likewise, it was fun running around as Rhino, Slash Dashing Rhino Charging my way to catch up to people and then knock a bunch of enemies into the air, pop IS when around a bunch of poison ancients and then go to town with my Scuindo. Those days are over but I'm going to try and get another warframe I've wanted to try: Ash. With the talk of it getting some love I want to see what made people upset with it before it's buffed.

[Rexdeorum]

I like what you said, but for your idea to work they would have to remove the duration and make it last until the counter runs out, and it can't lose counter from each bullet either otherwise it's completely pointless......

 

I honestly still prefer it as it was before the nerf.

Agreed I was also fine with the way Rhino was before the nerf, and if they plan to do that thing with the counter, it needs to be able to allow shield and hp regen during the time it's active as well and it should be able to tank multiple attacks from multiple enemies without the counter being completely obliterated in under 20 seconds.

[Zarozian]

Rhino had all kinds of quirks that made it undesirable but still a blast to play. After all the hate and anger and rage, perhaps it would be best to just move onto another frame and see what the hype about them is about before it's taken away. Like the Banshee, I was glad to be able to clear rooms as her. The chunk of Energy taken was well worth the use to my team. Likewise, it was fun running around as Rhino, Slash Dashing Rhino Charging my way to catch up to people and then knock a bunch of enemies into the air, pop IS when around a bunch of poison ancients and then go to town with my Scuindo. Those days are over but I'm going to try and get another warframe I've wanted to try: Ash. With the talk of it getting some love I want to see what made people upset with it before it's buffed.

But I prefer Rhino and I'm not the type who would want all the warframes, I have certain preferences and everyone else does too and a lot of people who preferred Rhino liked him just as he was before the nerf and they were devastated after the nerf, a much larger reaction than to the nerf with the Hek. They couldn't even think straight and make constructive criticism till after they had calmed down.

[SoulEchelon]

Alright. Do you really care about Rhino?

 

Your posts are getting more and more off topic now, so I stated my answer in a spoiler.

 

I just said I cared about that warframe. I said it constantly, and stated it in a way that a 5 year old would understand. But now you're just hung up on it instead of actually trying to be constructive. Go ahead and continue this line of interrogation if you like. Your posts will now be ignored.

 

Back on topic.

 

I actually have a suggestion that's a bit different - but at the same time pretty familiar to those who may be more into certain action RPGs as of late.

 

1. As we all know, the Block ability is horribly unused. It can be useful, but at this moment in time its implementation is not exactly on par with everything else. What I suggest, is to link Iron Skin with the Block ability. Give 80% reduction at max while not blocking as it is now. But, give 95% while blocking.Also, as someone else stated in this thread, have the ability give agro as well. Rhino's health could regenerate during this, too. So that means this ability could not only help him tank very nicely, but if he's injured, he can hide and heal himself.

 

2. Another idea I JUST thought of, is something like Nyx's Absorb. I've always thought that ability doesn't seem to fit Nyx at all, but it would definitely fit Rhino - only with a few changes. Instead of Rhino floating in the air like Nyx, he could instead situate himself on the ground as if he's powering up. ALL enemies within a radius (modified by Reach of course) agro immediately onto him. ALL damage, both from ranged and melee, inflicted on him would be absorbed until after a few moments he releases the damage back on the enemies like Nyx does. Of course, this idea would basically mean Nyx's Absorb would need to be changed drastically so that there weren't any "direct duplicates" of abilities.

 

3. One last suggestion - give Rhino an extra 100 base health. I do fully agree it's odd that the Tank of the game has average HP while one of the more "ninja" frames (Ash) has more.

 

And those are my suggestions. Back to real life for me. *poofs*

Edited May 19, 2013 by SoulEchelon

[Denzine]

I beg to differ. His other abilities are very useful as well,

 

Radial Blast is 10 meters and has pitiful damage, Charge is an extremely unreliable knockoff of Slash Dash, and Rhino Stomp has less CC capability than any other CC ult in the game. Your statement false.

 

Rhino should most definitely be a tank. But he shouldn't be invincible and should be able to be killed. If he couldn't be killed, then why play any other frame if you want to go with pure efficiency?

 

Most other frames do crowd control better, which is more effective at achieving many results than trundling around invulnerable at .8 speed or less. Besides, Trinity can do that with a normal run speed, literally forever, using Link->Vampire.