May 17Th Hot Topic: Constructive Feedback Vs Hyperbole

[Furyoushounen]

died trying to revive me,  (after 7.11 nerf)

 

Exactly what I thought!

[Iraetus]

I don't use a Rhino but, here are my points. (I use a Frost)

 

Frost = Put his alt helmet and he is MORE Tanky than Rhino (excluding Iron Skin) (They also say it adds 33% more armor, add a maxed out Armor Mod and you'll be negating tons of damage, Frost would somehow have a Pseudo Iron Skin)

 

Ember = Overheat outclasses Iron Skin damage reduction

 

Trinity = Link gives her invincibilty 

 

So yeah. I think the problem is. DE forgot to look into other frames and just decided to nerf down Rhino. (No offense)

[DAWGUNITALPHA]

Here's some more constructive feedback. There were several weapons I wanted, and I was thinking about buying additional weapon slots to hold them all so I Could play around with builds and experiment. But after seeing the market changes I just sighed an said "Nope". You're not getting my money now guys, I can do without weapons for THAT much added BS to get them therefore I don't even need the additional slots anymore. And I'm not the only one who feels this way about it.

[Zarozian]

Someone finish this sentence in a way that is not silly sounding and I will be a believer...

 

"I was enjoying this game, until some guy in an Rhino warframe came along and ____________, and that ruined my game."

 

 

died trying to revive me,  (after 7.11 nerf)

I laughed so hard that both my sides have this painful spiky feeling after reading this, because it is so true oh man, I still can't stop laughing!

 

xD

 

But in all dead seriousness, revert Rhino back to how he was before the nerf and never touch him again.

 

All will be forgiven if this is done. I don't need Loki and Frost, &#! kissers touching my Rhino and I certainly don't need these trolls here who don't even play Rhino, who doesn't even care about Rhino, and doesn't even like Rhino, stating their opinions that aggravate the huge masses even more.

 

If there was still a "-1" button, their posts would be bleeding red in the 100s leaking down the page. No exaggeration.

 

And Scott, I have nothing personal against you, but that was a very very stupid move. I want to say more that's probably too vulgar to read but I am restraining myself at my best.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Zarozian

[jrkong]

Went back and solo'd a few rounds with my brother's Excaliber (more upgrades then my own). I found myself playing the exact same way as I did with my Rhino except the Rhino died a LOT more then the Excaliber. Iron Skin used to prolong my time in the frying pan it gave me a breath of fresh air and guaranteed I could get away from a tight situation, now I last a few extra seconds vs without Iron Skin. I use Rhino Charge to get up close so I don't waste precious IS time so I can do some hacking around but IS only lets me kill 5-7 enemies before I'm down to my HP when I have to retreat. Difference comes here: When I try to Rhino Charge back to cover there's still around 10m or so I still have to cover before I'm completely out of harm's way something I usually fail to do because the Rhino is just too slow and bulky making an easy target where as the Excaliber easily ducks out of harms way with his additional mobility.

 

Another situation where the Excaliber completely outclassed the Rhino was in a retreat situation where Radial Blind and Radial Javelin did a much better job then Rhino's Radial Blast and Rhino Stomp. During situations where I was down to my health I found the Excaliber survived more because Radial Javelin usually cleared out the room or Radial Blind manages to stall enemies long enough because the Excaliber is more mobile. Versus Radial Blast which, more often then not, knocked enemies down who'd usually be up and shooting when I'm 3/4 of the way to my cover and  I usually face the same situation when I use Rhino Stomp as it has roughly the same duration as Radial Blind.

[Cr4p]

 Designers felt Iron Skin was OP, so made change. Change too severe? Let's not revert it back to being OP, but find balance for power.

 

I don't want to name people who are already upset at the game, but a dedicated browse of the latest activity in the forums would reveal a lot of hyperbole. No where in my post am I saying it's the player who is wrong. I'm making a list of earnest feedback that covers the issue. Did we create the issue by changing Iron Skin? Yes, obviously. Did Iron Skin need to be changed? Our designers say yes. Did we change it too much? It would appear so, now time for review and potential tweaks based on feedback.

 

The problem with this reply and line of thought is, it assumes your designers are correct even if their implementation may be off.

 

Maybe Iron Skin was OP, but a lot of people obviously don't feel it was and I think your definition of "constructive feedback" actually equates to "alternative suggestions". It may not be the type of suggestion you want, but a suggestion of "revert the change" is just as valid and "constructive" as "do this instead" and without more specific information on why your designers felt the change was necessary ("OP" is rather vague), its hard for us to guess at what type of changes/suggestions/alternatives would be deemed acceptable by the designers.

 

Although I, and I believe many others, will still feel like a complete and total refusal to even consider suggestions of a reversion and attempt to invalidate them by saying they are "not constructive" is still a really poor way of doing things, bad design practice and a great way to alienate your fanbase. Not being open to the idea that perhaps a change was unnecessary at all, that although possibly in need of modification the designers ideas are intrinsically infallible, is going to lead to this type of reaction and to people feeling like they are being ignored, that the designers will do whatever they want regardless of what anyone says or thinks and end up leading to even more of the "angry" people posts.

 

Sometimes the angry people have a point though. If they don't, or there is truly nothing useful in them (without disregarding them simply because they are a completely contradictory opinion/view), then disregard them and move on to the better suggestions. Stop addressing them, stop making blanket statements  ("not constructive", "hyperbole", "not helpful") aimed at unnamed parties that will cause people to make assumptions and rile people up even more, especially when those statements are themselves not at all constructive, useful or helpful. Chastising your customers is generally not considered a good business practice, and making inciteful, vague statements that people can and do interpret in different ways and are unsure if its aimed at them or not is only going to make things worse. =)

 

A great step in this direction would be, as mentioned above, to give us more detail about why the designers felt this change, and the other changes were necessary (banshee, etc.). Like "what specifically was OP about it", "what amazing feats or exploits was the skill allowing that required it to be changed", "why, specifically, did it need to be changed", "was it changed in light of some upcoming content or other changes we are not privy to yet", etc.

 

Maybe if we had more information, we would be more likely to see or at least be able to understand the designers' point of view, but as it stands it was a sudden, unannounced nerf (which if you have any history with online gaming at all, you will know are always suppppper popular :) ) which shocked a great deal of people and which are great deal of people didn't feel was necessary, and feeling that the change was unnecessary and should be reverted can most definitely be a "constructive" suggestion, and if the majority or a significant portion of the playerbase feel that way, I don't think its a great idea to dismiss it out of hand, but if you are going to, at least be up front and say "this will not be restored to the way it was because X, so give us alternatives" rather than dismissing the comments or engaging in arguments with customers which tends to look bad even to those who might agree with you and try to remember that people are generally getting so excited over the changes because they care about the game you made and one could, in a twisted way, consider that even when someone is calling a designer names or getting angry or whatever over a change, its because they are passionate about your creation, if none of us cared, we wouldn't bother, we would just pack up our stuff and move on, and I definitely wouldn't be writing this typo-bloated thesis 5 minutes after waking up. :)

 

-------------------------------------

 

Just a side note, the above isn't intended to sound aggressive, argumentative, condescending, etc., although I'm aware it could come across as such (even liberally sprinkled with smilies), just trying to point out/remind why you are getting some of the reactions and hopefully get across the point that calls for reverts ("unnerfs"?) can be constructive, but its hard to accurately convey tone in text only sometimes, so I'll apologize in advance if any of the comments seems negative or out of line.

 

For the record, I've dropped $50 on your game, which is the same I'd pay for a preorder for a Triple A title and which I only do maybe 2-3 times a year at most. I've recommended it on steam, I've dragged 7-8 friends into, etc. I like the game, believe in the game's potential and I care about the game and that's why I'm taking the time to state my opinions, views and observations, if I hated it and thought the devs were terrible, I wouldn't bother and I certainly wouldn't have spent 25-35% of my limited entertainment budget on the game =)

 

In addition, I'd like to note, I don't even play rhino. I have one but I have all the frames and haven't played him once yet, so I don't have a personal, "oh god you broke my favorite character" stake in this. However many of my friends use (used) Rhino and I've never felt they were OP (or even super useful outside of specific circumstances) and many of them feel this change has made it pointless to play him (this is not an invite to nerf other characters, making him appear more useful by making others less useful is a great way to alienate players) and I have to agree. I would much rather my friends played something more useful when we are in a group now other than a Rhino who doesn't (can't) really contribute that much to the cooperative game anymore from my view.

[Vitriolic_Crux]

I haven't read every single page of this, so sorry if its been suggested, but what if Iron Skin gave invulnerability again but severely restricted movement? Perhaps it could even outright render you unable to move. You can attack and use melee, but you can't run and your movement speed is reduced to a slow walk. I'm talking slower than anything we've seen in the game so far. We don't even have to go back to invulnerability, but 90% at max rank at the very least otherwise I hardly see the point to the skill.

Another option could be to keep it at the current 80% damage reduction at max rank, but also give it the ability to reflect a certain percentage of ranged fire. Also any melee attacks you receive while the ability is active would cause the attacker to stagger.

I also liked the idea of adding a health leech from damage taken.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Vitriolic_Crux

[fishworshipper]

I haven't read every single page of this, so sorry if its been suggested, but what if Iron Skin gave invulnerability again but severely restricted movement? Perhaps it could even outright render you unable to move. You can attack and use melee, but you can't run and your movement speed is reduced to a slow walk. I'm talking slower than anything we've seen in the game so far. We don't even have to go back to invulnerability, but 90% at max rank at the very least otherwise I hardly see the point to the skill.

God no, that'd make Rhino even more useless.

How about we just revert Rhino's Iron Skin, add a cooldown, and forget any of this rage ever happened?

[ISellBodyParts]

I don't really have any constructive feedback on how to properly nerf iron skin. I don't really feel that iron skin needed a nerf in the way it worked. Maybe an increase in energy, duration reduction, maybe even a diminishing return on spam casting or something. 

 

What really bothers me about the rhino nerf more than anything else is that all the other frames with tanking/invincibility went untouched. Even more so than that this new warframe that was released is seriously borderline broken. I've seen a couple games where he spams his aoe stop things from moving in a huge radius move. Now pair that with a trinity for unlimited energy and you've got a move that is 10x more broken than iron skin. Did Iron skin get nerfed to keep the new warframe's brokenness unnoticed?

[Cpl_Facehugger]

I'm still kind of confused about all this, really.

 

Everyone keeps saying the game's easy.

 

They nerf a Rhino's iron skin, which definitely was one of the main reasons why this game was too easy.

 

 

The answer's pretty simple: The guys who complain about how the game's too easy aren't the same guys who're talking about Rhino.

 

The former's a vocal minority. The latter's apparently a vocal majority, going by how much discussion this generated.

 

Everyone rages because now the game's too hard for Rhino users, who still get 80% damage reduction while using Iron Skin and have a base 150 armor.

80% damage reduction and 150 armor isn't much at all when you're getting hosed down by three or four level 34 lancers with their max-serration grakatas. It seems like a lot on paper, but in practice all it does is buy you a couple of extra seconds out of cover. Which Rhino can't really take advantage of because he's so slow. Enemy DPS in high level content is such that your 1000 shield will be gone in the blink of an eye, with iron skin's 80% DR only prolonging that by not long at all. And since armor doesn't help that much either, what with only coming into play when shields are down, you're kinda screwed if you're a rhino trying to play in the big boy zones. 

 

And there's also special attacks, like Jackal's sticky grenades. It sure sucks when you cop one of those now. Before you could pop IS and be safe, then revive all your teammates who got splattered. Now everyone's burning a revive because as it turns out, those sticky grenades do a ridiculous amount of damage, such that 80% DR means nothing.

[Vitriolic_Crux]

Restricting movement wouldn't make the skill useless, two of the weapons all Tenno have equipped are ranged and then if you want to melee just be sure to use the skill in a large crowd. This especially wouldn't be a problem with the infested missions. The point of the skill is to not get damaged while you're being hounded, restricting movement doesn't change that.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Vitriolic_Crux

[Zarozian]

God no, that'd make Rhino even more useless.

How about we just revert Rhino's Iron Skin, add a cooldown, and forget any of this rage ever happened?

How about revert it back completely and no cool down.

[Zarozian]

Honestly. I feel like Steel Fiber should affect both shields and health....

 

But the main topic here is about reverting Rhino back to how he was before the nerf and never touching the bigger bro ever again.

 

Give the tank his tank back.

[Rexdeorum]

Honestly. I feel like Steel Fiber should affect both shields and health....

 

But the main topic here is about reverting Rhino back to how he was before the nerf and never touching the bigger bro ever again.

 

Give the tank his tank back.

That is a good idea. I also agree that the best solution is giving back the duration and the invulnerability that Rhino had before the nerf/patch.

 

No one was complaining, and a huge majority disagreed on the nerf even before the update. What really needs to be done is buffing Rhino's other skills more. It really won't make every player play only Rhino, if you think like that in a PVE game then you're just silly.

[Rexdeorum]

God no, that'd make Rhino even more useless.

How about we just revert Rhino's Iron Skin, add a cooldown, and forget any of this rage ever happened?

No cool down. Then it's a deal.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Rexdeorum

[goozilla]

Hosted a 4man Hades alert run. Rhino can't support like he used to. Even with 4 Siphons, and using a maxed Rhino stomp to CC and pick people up, I still had issues revving people who were blindsided by a stampede of Shockwave MOAs. Max Iron skin, maxed Steel Fiber, and I went down to around 100 picking just one person up. Just. One.

[SummerG]

After reading 29 pages of this topic i saw all kinds of criticism, some constructive , and some downright stupid. And as for the Rhino Skillset I can't add anything that hasn't been said before.What i want to focus on is the fact that for a rhino to be the GodKingOfSpace he was accused of being pre nerf he had to get alot of rare mods like Flow , Continuity and Streamline . Now Streamline is pretty easy since it is given nearly every second run of Xini, but it took me (and not only me , since I've seen alot of people with even more game time than me not getting the mods) ~100-105 hours of play time to get flow and ~50-60 hours to get my first continuity drop. Now some people might get these early on or even get multiples ,but my point is this the nerf was made so that the maxed out rhino users with their rare mods and potatoed frames werent that good wich I despute since being the heaviest frame should mean you can tank better than the healer, but I digress . Not all the people using rhino had those mods that means alot of them had a max energy pool of 150 now think how hard the maxed players got hit by this and then think about the ones without reactors or rare mods. Yeah it's a bit brutal isn't it.

[Zarozian]

So to sum it all up, we all want you guys to revert Rhino back to the way he was prior to the update, then buffing his other 3 skills and never touching him ever again.

 

We're all set and done here yes? No nerf, no downside, no rage from community, and Scotty is forgiven by all the Rhino users in the community and all the other warframes with overpowered abilities are once again under Rhino's great shield called "Iron Skin" so the rest of the community can now relax.

 

I mean we know what's best for Rhino, we played him more than you guys did.

[Zarozian]

Oh and good luck reading 30 pages. Hope the next fix comes soon.

[Rexdeorum]

So to sum it all up, we all want you guys to revert Rhino back to the way he was prior to the update, then buffing his other 3 skills and never touching him ever again.

 

We're all set and done here yes? No nerf, no downside, no rage from community, and Scotty is forgiven by all the Rhino users in the community and all the other warframes with overpowered abilities are once again under Rhino's great shield called "Iron Skin" so the rest of the community can now relax.

 

I mean we know what's best for Rhino, we played him more than you guys did.

Amen.

[Cr4p]

Link with Trinity ALWAYS did tanking better because she was totally immune, reflects damage, PLUS she can regain energy.....why isnt she used as THE TANK?

Impression, that's the sole reason why. It had NOTHING to do with the actually ability set but the impression people got.

 

Because Link with Trinity is significantly shorter than Iron Skin and Trinity is significantly squishier than Rhino. When your link runs out as a Trinity, you generally better have another ready to go/killed everything already/already be on your way out of the line of fire or you get squashed. :)

 

Regaining energy doesn't work that great except for on mobs that can take a beating (bosses, high level ancients, etc.) since they usually die before you have much chance to regain anything.

 

She's really only suited for tanking in very short bursts and even then you need to pour a lot into continuity and flow at high levels to make her really useful, at which point that is the result of effort put into making the character strong which should be rewarded.

[Mak_Gohae]

Because Link with Trinity is significantly shorter than Iron Skin and Trinity is significantly squishier than Rhino. When your link runs out as a Trinity, you generally better have another ready to go/killed everything already/already be on your way out of the line of fire or you get squashed. :)

 

Regaining energy doesn't work that great except for on mobs that can take a beating (bosses, high level ancients, etc.) since they usually die before you have much chance to regain anything.

 

She's really only suited for tanking in very short bursts and even then you need to pour a lot into continuity and flow at high levels to make her really useful, at which point that is the result of effort put into making the character strong which should be rewarded.

 

So what you are saying is that the abilities and warframes function differently and that creates..... A BALANCE!

[goozilla]

Because Link with Trinity is significantly shorter than Iron Skin and Trinity is significantly squishier than Rhino. When your link runs out as a Trinity, you generally better have another ready to go/killed everything already/already be on your way out of the line of fire or you get squashed. :)

 

Regaining energy doesn't work that great except for on mobs that can take a beating (bosses, high level ancients, etc.) since they usually die before you have much chance to regain anything.

 

She's really only suited for tanking in very short bursts and even then you need to pour a lot into continuity and flow at high levels to make her really useful, at which point that is the result of effort put into making the character strong which should be rewarded.

False. Energy Vamp is ridiculously abusible on heavy targets and ancients immediately on Mars and after. Focus, Contiuity, and Streamline basically keeps it sustained indefinitely. And she's not only suitable in tanking short bursts. She can literally stand in front of Phroid with no redirection, and spam 3 and 4 while meleeing. Its indefinite till your target dies.

[baloo3a]

Hopefully this will be read by the devs:

 

The main reason I use Rhino's Iron Skin was to block the incoming damage and replenish my shield so my health wont drop. I also use it when I'm against Disruptors (avoiding energy/shield depletion) and Poison Ancients (avoid health damage).

 

 

Alternative way to fix Rhino Iron Skin 1:

 

- No damage reduction.

- Shield Regeneration works even under fire upto 200% rate.

- Ignores all debilitating attacks, staggers, stuns and drains.

 

Reason:

Here Rhino will be taking damage as any other warframe in the game, but allowing him to be unique in the sense that his shield will be able to regenerate while getting hit. Since Rhino is getting hit, there will be a point where if the player pulls a large number of enemies especially the high-level ones, the damage they are dishing might over-take the rate of Rhino's Shield regeneration and if the player continued on this state, their health will take a hit until they die. Thus making Rhino a tank but not a god. Depending on the player's shield regeneration rate, they will get hurt more often when going to the higher leveled areas. This will create a challenge in late game and players more aware of their surroundings.

 

 

Alternative way to fix Rhino Iron Skin 2 (My personal Choice):

 

 

- upto 50% damage reduction.

- Shield Regeneration works even under fire upto 100% rate.

- Ignores all debilitating attacks, staggers, stuns and drains.

 

Reason:

Same deal as the above, but since there is upto 50% damage reduction here, the shield regeneration shouldn't be as high, thus the rate has been halved. This will allow the skill to scale well in the late game where enemies will be dishing higher damage output. 

 

 

Alternative way to fix Rhino Iron Skin 3:

 

 

- upto 75% damage reduction.

- Shield Regeneration works even under fire upto 50% rate.

- Ignores all debilitating attacks, staggers, stuns and drains.

 

Reason:

Higher damage reduction at the cost of an even lower shield regeneration rate, it will scale well with late game areas.

 

====================

 

Conclusion:

A tank should be in the front line protecting their team mates from harm, and so the Shield regeneration is really important if Rhino will standing the line of fire for as long as he can. The high level area enemies will be dealing higher damage where they will be able to deplete Rhino's shield which will force the player to make a decision to either continue taking the damage at the cost of his health or hide until their shield is back. 

 

I placed serious thought about it, so I ask kindly to read what I wrote and I welcome any feedback or criticism about it. 

[BigSchmexy]

Hopefully this will be read by the devs:

 

The main reason I use Rhino's Iron Skin was to block the incoming damage and replenish my shield so my health wont drop. I also use it when I'm against Disruptors (avoiding energy/shield depletion) and Poison Ancients (avoid health damage).

 

 

Alternative way to fix Rhino Iron Skin 1:

 

- No damage reduction.

- Shield Regeneration works even under fire upto 200% rate.

- Ignores all debilitating attacks, staggers, stuns and drains.

 

Reason:

Here Rhino will be taking damage as any other warframe in the game, but allowing him to be unique in the sense that his shield will be able to regenerate while getting hit. Since Rhino is getting hit, there will be a point where if the player pulls a large number of enemies especially the high-level ones, the damage they are dishing might over-take the rate of Rhino's Shield regeneration and if the player continued on this state, their health will take a hit until they die. Thus making Rhino a tank but not a god. Depending on the player's shield regeneration rate, they will get hurt more often when going to the higher leveled areas. This will create a challenge in late game and players more aware of their surroundings.

 

 

Alternative way to fix Rhino Iron Skin 2 (My personal Choice):

 

 

- upto 50% damage reduction.

- Shield Regeneration works even under fire upto 100% rate.

- Ignores all debilitating attacks, staggers, stuns and drains.

 

Reason:

Same deal as the above, but since there is upto 50% damage reduction here, the shield regeneration shouldn't be as high, thus the rate has been halved. This will allow the skill to scale well in the late game where enemies will be dishing higher damage output. 

 

 

Alternative way to fix Rhino Iron Skin 3:

 

 

- upto 75% damage reduction.

- Shield Regeneration works even under fire upto 50% rate.

- Ignores all debilitating attacks, staggers, stuns and drains.

 

Reason:

Higher damage reduction at the cost of an even lower shield regeneration rate, it will scale well with late game areas.

 

====================

 

Conclusion:

A tank should be in the front line protecting their team mates from harm, and so the Shield regeneration is really important if Rhino will standing the line of fire for as long as he can. The high level area enemies will be dealing higher damage where they will be able to deplete Rhino's shield which will force the player to make a decision to either continue taking the damage at the cost of his health or hide until their shield is back. 

 

I placed serious thought about it, so I ask kindly to read what I wrote and I welcome any feedback or criticism about it. 

Even with some shield regen a room full of high level lancers or even two or three heavies would still tear rhino to pieces if he was trying to melee or revive someone that would really only work against infested