May 17Th Hot Topic: Constructive Feedback Vs Hyperbole

[Denzine]

Because Link with Trinity is significantly shorter than Iron Skin and Trinity is significantly squishier than Rhino. When your link runs out as a Trinity, you generally better have another ready to go/killed everything already/already be on your way out of the line of fire or you get squashed. :)

 

Regaining energy doesn't work that great except for on mobs that can take a beating (bosses, high level ancients, etc.) since they usually die before you have much chance to regain anything.

 

She's really only suited for tanking in very short bursts and even then you need to pour a lot into continuity and flow at high levels to make her really useful, at which point that is the result of effort put into making the character strong which should be rewarded.

This is untrue. Dual Heat Swords or a Dark Sword or Furax with a charge damage mod, or Gram or Scindo or Fragor, , will restore enough energy on a charge attack to keep Link->Vampire up forever even against hordes of weak enemies that you really won't need to use Link for anyway. This is not an issue for any weapon at higher Defense waves you will be using Link on, as all mobs have more HP.

[NemShadow]

Rebecca, if i good remember a member has make an interesting proposition for Iron Skin. Not invicibility, but very fast regeneration for shields and health. This way Rhino stays very hard to kill, but it's not invincible. Up to me it's a better idea than reduce the damage reduction of his armor. He's a tank, he's sensed to take heavy damages to avoid them to his teammates. But now he can't take them. So i think an ability allowing to regenerate health and shields very fast can be great.

[CelsiusPrime]

Rebecca, if i good remember a member has make an interesting proposition for Iron Skin. Not invicibility, but very fast regeneration for shields and health. This way Rhino stays very hard to kill, but it's not invincible. Up to me it's a better idea than reduce the damage reduction of his armor. He's a tank, he's sensed to take heavy damages to avoid them to his teammates. But now he can't take them. So i think an ability allowing to regenerate health and shields very fast can be great.

 

I think I mostly agree with this. I played my rhino for the first time since the patch, and I lost health for the first time ever with rhino. I can't tell if it was because the enemies were stronger, I was out of practice with him, or if the patch really did make it worse.  I do think, though that they should leave it as is for a while just to see if people get over the "wow" idea of a tank.

[Scrcrw]

First of all, nerfs in coop PVE game. Really?

 

I used to main Rhino but without all the silly Flow, Continuity and Streamline mods and used Iron Skin to actually tank disruptors, heavy grineer and to regenerate my shields when I'm low, so I assume I used the skill as intended. Right now, with 80% reduction only, level 50+ mobs just tear through me. The skill is pointless when fighting high level mobs. So what's the point in using one of the slowest warframes when even its signature skill isn't a better version of anything any other frame has? And why Trinity was untouched then? Link is still as strong as Iron Skin was if not even better before and especially now. Why not make Frost's globe resist 80% only then? It's ridiculously OP in defense missions.

I guess I'll be tanking with Trinity then if that's the intended gameplay.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Scrcrw

[baloo3a]

Even with some shield regen a room full of high level lancers or even two or three heavies would still tear rhino to pieces if he was trying to melee or revive someone that would really only work against infested

 

Still better than the current situation, at least here you will know your shield will regenerate regardless of getting hit by a stray bullet. Happened to me a lot of times, where I try to hide from one direction of fire just to get hit from another direction thus resetting the timer where shied regeneration starts. 

 

Plus the fix I suggested is more flexible, since you wont stand in the open for the whole duration if you are getting heavily hit but will definitely make you last longer than the current situation ( plus makes the warframe a tank that will stand out from the other warframes ).

[goozilla]

inb4 DE's solution is to nerf everyone.

[Dovahjim]

Nobody really complained about him when he was still mediocre and there were more prominent issues to fix. He had 1 good ability and now that it's gone Rhino is pretty useless. Even if it was slightly OP it's a CO-OP game and it was the one thing keeping him playable. In my completely honest opinion, put him back the way he was, the whole thing, damage reduction, no knockback, no ancients affecting him, perhaps add in a cooldown or make it swap places with the ground pound ability so it uses slightly more and the ground pound isn't as useless. Really though, haardly anybody complained about/wanted this and it seems like the devs are not communicating. This is a huge change, they could have at least gave us some notice and saw what we think.

[Eversor]

The way i see it, as many say, i think the nerf was intended to balance... problem is you destroyed Rhino´s signature. It is the same if i start an anti Slash&Dash crusade, probably the most efficient skill of Warframe only for 25 eenergy, currently and since i started playing closed beta , the most imba skill. You nerf it, you destroy Excalibur´s signature.

 

To sum it up, i think i understand what DE tried with this, problem is i think they didn´t consider the place where Rhino falls with this: Slow Frame, and not the best in anything. If you nerf something "primary" of a Frame, you must consider what to do with the others.

 

I think you cannot balance the game as a frame per frame basis anymore. You must consider all frames and his true performance first. And With true performance i mean what players really do with them, not what you think this or that frame should be used to.

 

Just a constructive hint :D

[TennoSkoom]

Nobody really complained about him when he was still mediocre and there were more prominent issues to fix.

 

Wrong, I've seen three different threads here on the forums of new (I mean less than 50 hours of gameplay new) players crying that iron skin was OP only to be shot down by more experienced players who then turned the topic towards how rhino's other abilities are garbage and proceeded to make the topic productive by making suggestions on how rhino could be improved. These same people that were crying for a nerf on the rhino are suddenly very shy about posting on the forums. I can't imagine why, they got what they wanted.

 

DE came out with 7.11 nerfs iron skin without buffing anything else, and then says there are no suggestions on how to fix it? =/ My faith is dwindling in DE after all the problems brought about by 7.11 that could have easily been avoided with a little forethought. movement mechanics are being broken more and more with each update, blueprints are broken, vauban isn't considered OP with his ability to 1shot vor... but iron skin was op and got nerf'd so hard the frame is now useless. numerous changes alienate newer players from good weapons, blueprint images are messed up, and that's probably just scratching the surface. Don't get me wrong, i'm not trying to be a negative nancy here- it's just hard not to be when there's so much going wrong with this recent update. Good things have come too, a few new granieer tiles that weren't announced, a massive amount of bugfixes, cameras are now more apparent (though it remains to be seen if people will learn to shoot them)  I still hold hope that DE will fix things, but... there's a lot to be done. With update 8 on the horizon I have to say that while bew content's great- it keeps older players coming back while reassuring new players that progress is still being made. However, after update 8 I'm hoping DE puts more emphasis on fixing existing issues- especially those that seem to be getting worse with each update (like movement mechanics)

Edited May 19, 2013 by AnalogAnomaly

[Se7ense7en]

One more thing about vauban update. Its not about Rhino or Banshee, its about the Glaive. I was using the Glaive at Xini, Eris (maxed Killing Blow, some additional fire and ice damage). 

Damage output:

-vs lvl40 chargers - 1125 dmg

-vs lvl40 ancients - 375 dmg

 

Now I have a question: wat? Whats the point of this thingy now? I can deal with lighter enemies faster using firearms, and Glaive have no benefits vs heavy enemies now. I think its kinda... wrong.

[Cr4p]

False. Energy Vamp is ridiculously abusible on heavy targets and ancients immediately on Mars and after. Focus, Contiuity, and Streamline basically keeps it sustained indefinitely. And she's not only suitable in tanking short bursts. She can literally stand in front of Phroid with no redirection, and spam 3 and 4 while meleeing. Its indefinite till your target dies.

 

 

This is untrue. Dual Heat Swords or a Dark Sword or Furax with a charge damage mod, or Gram or Scindo or Fragor, , will restore enough energy on a charge attack to keep Link->Vampire up forever even against hordes of weak enemies that you really won't need to use Link for anyway. This is not an issue for any weapon at higher Defense waves you will be using Link on, as all mobs have more HP.

 

No, what you both say is untrue.

 

Energy vampire you can only gain a max of 100 energy per casting, link costs 75, energy vampire costs 50, that's 125 cost against a max 100 gain.

 

On top of that at max level, it gives 30% of the damage back as energy, so in order to even get the 100 energy max, you have to deliver over 300 damage while its still active.

 

The only way you can chain the stuff is if you have a bunch of maxed out mods, flow, continuity (which usually means a potatoed warframe) and probably an energy siphon. At that point you are already in the top probably 20%, if not higher, of players in terms of equipment. Not everyone is running around with potatoes in everything, energy siphons etc.

 

On top of that, you aren't soloing phorid without at least the risk of getting one shot, so you have a team with you to back you up and help deal damage to his enormous life.

 

So essentially, if you have top level gear and mods, and a good team backing you up, Trinity is powerful.

 

That goes for nearly every frame in the game. :P

 

And if either of you would like to prove me wrong, add me in game I will gladly follow you to phorid and watch you solo him with your Trinity and record the whole thing for you.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Cr4p

[Mazimer]

o_o

 

internal development process being shown this directly?

 

rock on rebecca o.o

[Sada_no_Fujin]

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/46526-why-rhino-should-be-buffed/#entry473605

 

Have a look.

[Emotitron]

Someone finish this sentence in a way that is not silly sounding and I will be a believer...

 

"I was enjoying this game, until some guy in an Rhino warframe came along and ____________, and that ruined my game."

 

died trying to revive me,  (after 7.11 nerf)

 

Pretty much yeah.

[Sada_no_Fujin]

"I was enjoying this game, until some guy in an Rhino warframe came along and ____________, and that ruined my game."

 

 

I was enjoying this game, until some guy in a Rhino warframe came along and started mooing at the enemy while spamming the gorgan, and that ruined my game.

[NoirProxy]

A lot of people are saying the devs are wanting you to show more love to other frames. So in essence you are saying that the devs are basically bullying the community with nerfs, so that they might instinct buy other frames to counter balance. That is how it works in my head anyway. If so then it is a sucky move.

 

It does appear that everything is getting a lot weaker and my guess to this is because the devs once again want people to be playing the online more and to stop playing solo as much. Problem is that the devs never make it clear anyway even in the livestreams. People say that they are so invested in the community and like to discuss but to be honest I just don't see it. There are way more opinions going on behind the scenes that just seem to annoy the community that actually benefit it. This is why opinion polls are good.

 

I mean playing online is understandable and having an entire squad of players making up the damage output that has been nerfed  by just playing solo is understandable, but it is a very old and retro tactic and also isn't very smart. There are better ways to implement balance and it takes just 5 minutes of writing and a 'Submit Post' button.

[TunaMayo]

No, what you both say is untrue.

Energy vampire you can only gain a max of 100 energy per casting, link costs 75, energy vampire costs 50, that's 125 cost against a max 100 gain.

On top of that at max level, it gives 30% of the damage back as energy, so in order to even get the 100 energy max, you have to deliver over 300 damage while its still active.

The only way you can chain the stuff is if you have a bunch of maxed out mods, flow, continuity (which usually means a potatoed warframe) and probably an energy siphon. At that point you are already in the top probably 20%, if not higher, of players in terms of equipment. Not everyone is running around with potatoes in everything, energy siphons etc.

On top of that, you aren't soloing phorid without at least the risk of getting one shot, so you have a team with you to back you up and help deal damage to his enormous life.

So essentially, if you have top level gear and mods, and a good team backing you up, Trinity is powerful.

That goes for nearly every frame in the game. :P

And if either of you would like to prove me wrong, add me in game I will gladly follow you to phorid and watch you solo him with your Trinity and record the whole thing for you.

Max streamline bro. Energy siphon bro. Flow mod bro.

Vamp becomes ~ 38 power.

Link becomes ~ 58 power.

Total becomes ~ 96 power.

Link restores - 100 power.

Infinite tanking.

Edit: even with these mods no other frame can really tank a boss to the same extent solo apart from maybe loki.

Edited May 19, 2013 by TunaMayo

[X3Evanescence]

..... This, is a little too much.

[Aggh]

Because Link with Trinity is significantly shorter than Iron Skin and Trinity is significantly squishier than Rhino. When your link runs out as a Trinity, you generally better have another ready to go/killed everything already/already be on your way out of the line of fire or you get squashed. :)

 

Regaining energy doesn't work that great except for on mobs that can take a beating (bosses, high level ancients, etc.) since they usually die before you have much chance to regain anything.

 

She's really only suited for tanking in very short bursts and even then you need to pour a lot into continuity and flow at high levels to make her really useful, at which point that is the result of effort put into making the character strong which should be rewarded.

Link lasts plenty long (especially with continuity) and is much easier to maintain (streamline and flow make this even easier) consistently compared to iron skin since you have energy vampire.  In situations where you actually need to tank, there's always going to be a champion or two to help regain energy.

[Cr4p]

Max streamline bro. Energy siphon bro. Flow mod bro.

Vamp becomes ~ 38 power.

Link becomes ~ 58 power.

Total becomes ~ 96 power.

Link restores - 100 power.

Infinite tanking.

Edit: even with these mods no other frame can really tank a boss to the same extent solo apart from maybe loki.

 

"So essentially, if you have top level gear and mods, and a good team backing you up, Trinity is powerful."

 

So basically, if you have an alert only artifact or better yet a group with multiples that stack, at least 2 maxed rare mods, most likely a potatoed level 30 warframe (since those 2 mods alone are 18 mod capacity+powers and I doubt people are running about with no redirect or vitality or fast deflect), are fighting something where you can do consistently get the max 100 power and have the weapons to do so consistently (again potatoed level 30s most likely), then you are powerful.

 

Heaven forbid that if you have all the best possible gear in the game you are able to tank a boss. That's not broken or OP, that's the result of putting in the time and effort of getting there, earning or lucking out on getting gear that the majority of players don't have.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Cr4p

[Cr4p]

Link lasts plenty long (especially with continuity) and is much easier to maintain (streamline and flow make this even easier) consistently compared to iron skin since you have energy vampire.  In situations where you actually need to tank, there's always going to be a champion or two to help regain energy.

That's if you have a maxed continuity (another rare mod and 9 mod capacity added to the above situation) which is still only a 30% duration increase. 30% of 8 seconds 2.4 seconds, rounding up (I'm not sure if the mod rounds up or down) that's another 3 seconds max level at best. And again this is assuming best gear, max level, multiple max level rare mods.

[Aggh]

"So essentially, if you have top level gear and mods, and a good team backing you up, Trinity is powerful."

 

So basically, if you have an alert only artifact or better yet a group with multiples that stack, at least 2 maxed rare mods, most likely a potatoed level 30 warframe (since those 2 mods alone are 18 mod capacity+powers and I doubt people are running about with no redirect or vitality or fast deflect), are fighting something where you can do consistently get the max 100 power and have the weapons to do so consistently (again potatoed level 30s most likely), then you are powerful.

 

Heaven forbid that if you have all the best possible gear in the game you are able to tank a boss. That's not broken or OP, that's the result of putting in the time and effort of getting there, earning or lucking out on getting gear that the majority of players don't have.

Actually, vs bosses you don't even need those mods since you can keep spamming energy vampire over and over and keep refilling.

 

 

That's if you have a maxed continuity (another rare mod and 9 mod capacity added to the above situation) which is still only a 30% duration increase. 30% of 8 seconds 2.4 seconds, rounding up (I'm not sure if the mod rounds up or down) that's another 3 seconds max level at best. And again this is assuming best gear, max level, multiple max level rare mods.

10-11 seconds of invulnerability is plenty of time to throw out energy vamp and keep spamming link.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Aggh

[Dagnome]

-People wonder if the reaction is this strong to one OP ability, maybe the other abilities could use a buff! Let’s review!

Define a OP ability? We could say life link and energy vampire combo is OP, we could say Chaos is OP, anyone in the community could find a way a power is "OP".

- Holy S&@* where is his knockback immunity? (This is a bug, it SHOULD be there.)

People need to strop having knee-jerk reactions and crying on the forums hoping that you guys will fix it that instant and maybe sit back and do a bit of research on the "issue".

- People want to know why the Nerf? Why not make stuff harder? What is being prioritized?

A good question, this community throws the term "nerf" around really quick. My response to the "nerf" is that it is Beta and I certainly don't mind the development team changing our beloved Frames around to see what would be a better "fit".

- Trinity is now “a better tank.” What does this mean for the overall balance of the frames?

I would disagree. "Tank" wise Rhino is still #1 as his base armor alone makes the damage he takes less than any other Frame. I think the argument I have seen is Embers ability to reach 90% Damage Reduction over Rhino's 80% makes her a "Better Tank". Trinity just has the capability to survive through her ability's, not her ability to tank.

- As Thor, a community mod, has summarized: "In essence, people seem concerned that what's happening is things are getting balanced towards an even, but weak, playing field". What are your thoughts on that?

We need to balance the frames and always need to keep looking at the "Balance". We certainly dont want an OP frame that everyone starts using, but I am willing ot bet that with DE's data on what frames are used, how often, what skills are used and how often, they are in a much better position to decide what needs "Balancing" than a player who thinks they know everything about "How the game should work".

- Not on the topic of Rhino, but Banshee not being invulnerable during Soundquake, can we talk about that?

Why should she be invulnerable during her ability? Does sound quake give Damage reduction? If you could make the argument of why it SHOULD give her 100% damage reduction than I could have that discussion.

[Cr4p]

Actually, vs bosses you don't even need those mods since you can keep spamming energy vampire over and over and keep refilling.

What would be the point in spamming energy vampire to refill energy vampire?

 

You need those mods to use energy vampire and link or blessing repeatedly. Sure, you can repeatedly use energy vampire with a group, but that's sort of the point of the skill and groups isn't it, and I'm addressing the solo melee phorid comment above in which case repeatedly spamming energy vampire without any of those mods doesn't allow for the situation suggested by that post.

 

As stated earlier, you come show me you (or anyone who wants to prove the point) easily soloing Phorid in game with trinity and without all those top mods and gear and I'll record it and post it for everyone to see and we will all rejoice and claim she is OP together. Lacking that, having played and maxed a potatoed Trinity, I don't see it being ridiculously OP considering the amount of stuff that needs to be on here to make anything close to what could be considered OP but rather the logical result of having a bunch of powerful mods, etc. obtained and leveled up through (in my case) 300 hours in the game. And even with that I barely ever even play my Trinity so she can't be that OP, cause I like roflstomping stuff =)

 

Otherwise you are just talking about a skill or warframe being good under the best possible circumstances, and while that might not hold true for some of the frames who are more situational, one warframe being powerful under the best possible set of conditions is not a good basis for modifying/nerfing/buffing another warframe. Everyone would be better served by addressing the supposedly "broken" frames/abilities themselves and how to improve them rather than anytime a change is made to one ability or frame suddenly leaping to but blahblah has X, X does blahblah type comparisons.

 

Rhino (the original point of the discussion) doesn't need to be buffed because Trinity is more powerful/better tank or X has better similar skill or whatever, Rhino needs to be buffed because even before the nerf and definitely after (in my opinion, granted) he's just not very useful in any unique way.

 

And I also (again in my opinion) don't see Trinity being so all-powerful that she needs a nerf to be more in line with the Rhino and until one of you guys comes and shows me proof of how OP she is in game, that's not going to change =)

[Scrcrw]

I would disagree. "Tank" wise Rhino is still #1 as his base armor alone makes the damage he takes less than any other Frame. I think the argument I have seen is Embers ability to reach 90% Damage Reduction over Rhino's 80% makes her a "Better Tank". Trinity just has the capability to survive through her ability's, not her ability to tank.

 

Armor does nothing to shield damage.