May 17Th Hot Topic: Constructive Feedback Vs Hyperbole

[EvanTheNewbie]

 

Here's what needs to happen, quite simply:

 

1). Iron Skin needs to allow Shield Recovery while in use even if you're taking damage. Otherwise, Iron Skin does very little of any good.

2). Iron Skin needs to make you immune to Toxin and Disruption.

3). Fix the Knockback Immune bug.

 

The 80% DR can stay.

 

I don't understand what you mean by shield recovery. Where exactly would the damage go then? Other than that, yes, immunity is needed.

[PositronicSpleen]

Iron Skin gets nerfed and now all these people jump in to defend the nerf. So why haven't they mentioned Link? It's invulnerability, does damage, can be maintained indefinitely, and is available on a warframe with effectively infinite energy. For that matter, if the developers thought Iron Skin was too good, why did they ignore Link when anyone on the forums could tell them how it is used?

 

-The developers invented a problem the community didn't see. (e.g. The only topic on nerfing Iron Skin before this update was aggressively opposed)

 

-The developers solved the problem in a way the majority of the community doesn't agree with. (e.g. read this thread)

 

-The developers introduced new problems the community didn't need. (e.g. Rhino can't tank ancients now. Why? Ancients needed a buff?)

 

I understand that both the community and developers want the game to be good, but there is a critical breakdown in communication. The community should know in advance what changes are being considered, and the response should be acknowledged. This should also go the other way, we need to know that someone is looking at all the Gameplay/Warframe/Weapon/etc feedback forums and that we're not just spinning our wheels.

 

This is necessary because this reaction has happened before, and without changes, it will probably happen again.

 

 

 

By the way, I don't actually think Link should be nerfed. Like Rhino's Iron Skin, it is the crux of her one good role. Armor doesn't affect the ability to tank, it's abilities and shields. Armor only affects health, health damage means you screwed up and should recover shields. Rhino used to have a skill for doing this.

 

And what exactly is the point of the change to Sound Quake? Like I literally don't get it, it's strictly inferior to pretty much every other 100 AOE, on top of removing players' ability to defend themselves, which is pretty weird since they're using a 100 energy area-effect damage ability.

Edited May 19, 2013 by PositronicSpleen

[Denzine]

No, what you both say is untrue.

 

Energy vampire you can only gain a max of 100 energy per casting, link costs 75, energy vampire costs 50, that's 125 cost against a max 100 gain.

 

On top of that at max level, it gives 30% of the damage back as energy, so in order to even get the 100 energy max, you have to deliver over 300 damage while its still active.

 

The only way you can chain the stuff is if you have a bunch of maxed out mods, flow, continuity (which usually means a potatoed warframe) and probably an energy siphon. At that point you are already in the top probably 20%, if not higher, of players in terms of equipment. Not everyone is running around with potatoes in everything, energy siphons etc.

 

On top of that, you aren't soloing phorid without at least the risk of getting one shot, so you have a team with you to back you up and help deal damage to his enormous life.

 

So essentially, if you have top level gear and mods, and a good team backing you up, Trinity is powerful.

 

That goes for nearly every frame in the game. :P

 

And if either of you would like to prove me wrong, add me in game I will gladly follow you to phorid and watch you solo him with your Trinity and record the whole thing for you.

 

My Trinity was not potato'd, Streamline is the only mod you need, and that is a damn CANCER on Europa defense missions. It's more common than any other card as a wave reward there. It's ludicrous and actually extremely annoying if you're trying for literally any other mod.

 

Furax or Dual Heat Swords, with +100% Charge Damage(Killing Blow lv3 is sufficient- it maxes at 150% at lv5 and is an Uncommon card, you will find one relatively quickly from Grineer), will do 300 damage in one armor-ignoring charged attack. Any heavy weapon besides the Amphis will perform similarly.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Denzine

[GrayFox]

Upon reading again (yes, again) the downpour of both expressive and constructive reactions to this said update, I've come to realize that what led to this was the lack of communication... (I'll try to be objective here) between the dev team and the Design Council (master and grandmaster founders) this issue with rhino and banshee nerf/update would've been completely avoided if there was a prior knowledge for the design council since they are (or should) be the ones from us, the tenno community, to have the first info or sorts about these updates, the first ones from our community to give initial feedback, if not through gameplay, from "paper". Are the "perks" of master and grandmaster founders reduced to just naming a warframe? getting weapon designs out? If so, that's kind of a let down, Guys over at DE, you can also use the DC for these kind of things, have an initial feedback, as I have read, they didn't have prior knowledge to this (If I'm wrong about this, then I'll gladly take blame for it and accept it as my mistake)

 

Or you'd rather have the whole community to give feedback, a simple Poll would give you an overview, even Warframe Wikia makes a poll every now and then, people do answer it, is making a Poll in the public forums so much of an issue of DC perks > Whole community? then again, I'm not part of DE, but I'm trying to understand it from what I perceive you'd be looking from, you have a strong connection with your community, you have all the outlets of reaching out and you've proven yourselves visible and reachable, don't turn your backs now and just surprise the community with something you already know would cause this.

 

To all the tennos out there, we've been through tough times, we've seen better days, this is not the 1st time Rhino had this pool of reaction but certainly not of this amount. Wait for things to get settled, there is still a chance to have both sides coincide on how Rhino will ultimately end.

 

+1 for class "balancing", during the livestreams, the team mentioned already of Trinity's tanking existence, yet as many have said, it hasn't been addressed and Rhino gets the shorter end of the stick, which I think got people off more. If you were planning on doing so.. bringing a challenge (to what I see is, a challenge in "tanking") make it so that every warframe that is "supposedly" used as tanks be addressed with equally as to avoid further misconceptions.

 

And another one...

Vauban... oh vauban...

 

recently played with a 4-member squad of vaubans....

 

we all have one thing in mind... Vauban SHOULD be nerfed, it's ridiculously good, I mean even one of my members said this strongly and I agree "It's the 1st warframe to have all 4 skills that are pretty much useful" 

 

 

If this is what the community or most of it considers the worst day of Warframe, then be optimistic, there's nothing left to go from here but up then.

[t3hsquirr3l]

I haven't ever played Rhino (don't see the point) so I've nothing to offer there beyond it appearing that the devs have overcompensated for whatever problem they've perceived to exist without offering anything to counterbalance what they've done.

 

I would honestly be happier if things like the core movement mechanics--especially jumping, wall-running, wall-climbing, and sliding--were made more reliable before we get another update to make the sound of bolt ammunition impacting a Moa different from impacting flesh. Yes, I noticed, and hey, it's neat and all, but I still can't trust my frame to jump over a broken fan-hole yet.

This a million times. I can live with a few unbalanced skills and warframes until the core mechanics are sound.  I mean, the sort of balancing you've been doing is in the name of keeping the game fun and challenging for players right? What's the point of that when the plethora of movement issues regularly causes me die a horrible death in the middle of a huge enemy group and rage quit?

 

I hereby call for whatever it takes for a solid core experience before a single other cosmetic or balance change, even if it's a complete overhaul of those systems.  I love this game, and I don't want to have to stop because the control response stresses me out.

[LittleSober]

Why don't you also make Rhino Charge ignore armor?

[FrostWolf]

Yes Iron Skin needs a rework... but all of Rhino's moves need to be buffed

 

Radial Blast should just be upped to a mini nuke since he lacks a real hard hitting AOE/CC Damage spell and at 75 a shot you could justify giving it near ultimate like damage and better range.

 - 500-750-

 

 

Rhino's Stomps should have small increases in Range and Duration to give him a more effective stun and Ally rescue move.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

-snip-

 

Charge Scindo doesnt have the reach of Radial Blast.

And a purpose of all of his attacks are to CC the enemy... how does this continue to escape people?

You can stun-lock the enemy with him, folks!

No, you can't stun lock enemies. Looking at it base (level 30 obv), and with no mods, you get TWO radial blasts the you're out of energy, or ONE rhino stomp, and an aluminum skin to follow it up.

Edited May 19, 2013 by KvotheTheArcane1

[Zarozian]

Iron Skin gets nerfed and now all these people jump in to defend the nerf. So why haven't they mentioned Link? It's invulnerability, does damage, can be maintained indefinitely, and is available on a warframe with effectively infinite energy. For that matter, if the developers thought Iron Skin was too good, why did they ignore Link when anyone on the forums could tell them how it is used?

 

-The developers invented a problem the community didn't see. (e.g. The only topic on nerfing Iron Skin before this update was aggressively opposed)

 

-The developers solved the problem in a way the majority of the community doesn't agree with. (e.g. read this thread)

 

-The developers introduced new problems the community didn't need. (e.g. Rhino can't tank ancients now. Why? Ancients needed a buff?)

 

I understand that both the community and developers want the game to be good, but there is a critical breakdown in communication. The community should know in advance what changes are being considered, and the response should be acknowledged. This should also go the other way, we need to know that someone is looking at all the Gameplay/Warframe/Weapon/etc feedback forums and that we're not just spinning our wheels.

 

This is necessary because this reaction has happened before, and without changes, it will probably happen again.

 

 

 

By the way, I don't actually think Link should be nerfed. Like Rhino's Iron Skin, it is the crux of her one good role. Armor doesn't affect the ability to tank, it's abilities and shields. Armor only affects health, health damage means you screwed up and should recover shields. Rhino used to have a skill for doing this.

 

And what exactly is the point of the change to Sound Quake? Like I literally don't get it, it's strictly inferior to pretty much every other 100 AOE, on top of removing players' ability to defend themselves, which is pretty weird since they're using a 100 energy area-effect damage ability.

The ones who defended the nerf don't even use Rhinos, they just want to destroy the game.

 

I also don't think Scott reads the forums and probably has no respect for what the community wants. I wonder if they even tested it out to see how well Iron Skin would preform after the nerf, in what way does nerfing the most useful and most accessible skill at Rhino's disposal make Rhino better? How does that make people want to play him in the play style and role that he fills?

[Zarozian]

No, you can't stun lock enemies. Looking at it base (level 30 obv), and with no mods, you get TWO radial blasts the you're out of energy, or ONE rhino stomp, and an aluminum skin to follow it up.

Kvo after reading through this entire thread. I think you should know that Mak is just a troll by now, don't take him seriously.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Kvo after reading through this entire thread. I think you should know that Mak is just a troll by now, don't take him seriously.

Still, it's good to correct what he says, so other people who don't have time to read all 30 pages can see. (even if it's fairly obvious he's a troll)

[FrostWolf]

 

And another one...

Vauban... oh vauban...

 

recently played with a 4-member squad of vaubans....

 

we all have one thing in mind... Vauban SHOULD be nerfed, it's ridiculously good, I mean even one of my members said this strongly and I agree "It's the 1st warframe to have all 4 skills that are pretty much useful" 

 

 

That Doesn't tell anybody anything... are you literally saying Each war frame should have a trash ability. that is borderline useless? That doesn't make any damn sense.

 

 DE fielded a frame that's well balanced from the get go

 

Is Tesla OP? Not really even if you field them in large numbers -and don't crash- The Damage which isn't all that great once you reach mid level enemies- is still one enemy at a time and they only have so many shots.

 

Launch pad is just good clean fun especially if you use it offensively.

 

Bastille is a good Stun and is excellent for downed party members

 

And Vortex is a nice choke point ultimate which is balanced by it's range.

[GTG3000]

That Doesn't tell anybody anything... are you literally saying Each war frame should have a trash ability. that is borderline useless? That doesn't make any damn sense.

 

 DE fielded a frame that's well balanced from the get go

 

Is Tesla OP? Not really even if you field them in large numbers -and don't crash- The Damage which isn't all that great once you reach mid level enemies- is still one enemy at a time and they only have so many shots.

 

Launch pad is just good clean fun especially if you use it offensively.

 

Bastille is a good Stun and is excellent for downed party members

 

And Vortex is a nice choke point ultimate which is balanced by it's range.

 

I think he was joking about that.

Upon reading again (yes, again) the downpour of both expressive and constructive reactions to this said update, I've come to realize that what led to this was the lack of communication... (I'll try to be objective here) between the dev team and the Design Council (master and grandmaster founders) this issue with rhino and banshee nerf/update would've been completely avoided if there was a prior knowledge for the design council since they are (or should) be the ones from us, the tenno community, to have the first info or sorts about these updates, the first ones from our community to give initial feedback, if not through gameplay, from "paper". Are the "perks" of master and grandmaster founders reduced to just naming a warframe? getting weapon designs out? If so, that's kind of a let down, Guys over at DE, you can also use the DC for these kind of things, have an initial feedback, as I have read, they didn't have prior knowledge to this (If I'm wrong about this, then I'll gladly take blame for it and accept it as my mistake)

 

Or you'd rather have the whole community to give feedback, a simple Poll would give you an overview, even Warframe Wikia makes a poll every now and then, people do answer it, is making a Poll in the public forums so much of an issue of DC perks > Whole community? then again, I'm not part of DE, but I'm trying to understand it from what I perceive you'd be looking from, you have a strong connection with your community, you have all the outlets of reaching out and you've proven yourselves visible and reachable, don't turn your backs now and just surprise the community with something you already know would cause this.

 

To all the tennos out there, we've been through tough times, we've seen better days, this is not the 1st time Rhino had this pool of reaction but certainly not of this amount. Wait for things to get settled, there is still a chance to have both sides coincide on how Rhino will ultimately end.

 

+1 for class "balancing", during the livestreams, the team mentioned already of Trinity's tanking existence, yet as many have said, it hasn't been addressed and Rhino gets the shorter end of the stick, which I think got people off more. If you were planning on doing so.. bringing a challenge (to what I see is, a challenge in "tanking") make it so that every warframe that is "supposedly" used as tanks be addressed with equally as to avoid further misconceptions.

 

And another one...

Vauban... oh vauban...

 

recently played with a 4-member squad of vaubans....

 

we all have one thing in mind... Vauban SHOULD be nerfed, it's ridiculously good, I mean even one of my members said this strongly and I agree "It's the 1st warframe to have all 4 skills that are pretty much useful" 

 

 

If this is what the community or most of it considers the worst day of Warframe, then be optimistic, there's nothing left to go from here but up then.

 

Well said. And no, Master/Grandmaster founders indeed didn't have a heads up on this. I wouldn't say that there's a real issue with Link, since it's VERY skill-dependent to actually spam it. And I hope we can all agree that bosses aren't the balance pinnacle of the game.

 

And I sure hope they won't nerf Vauban. What they need is buffing other frames to be as useful. Or have some way to show players proper use of "useless" abilities.

Edited May 19, 2013 by GTG3000

[Zarozian]

That Doesn't tell anybody anything... are you literally saying Each war frame should have a trash ability. that is borderline useless? That doesn't make any damn sense.

 

 DE fielded a frame that's well balanced from the get go

 

Is Tesla OP? Not really even if you field them in large numbers -and don't crash- The Damage which isn't all that great once you reach mid level enemies- is still one enemy at a time and they only have so many shots.

 

Launch pad is just good clean fun especially if you use it offensively.

 

Bastille is a good Stun and is excellent for downed party members

 

And Vortex is a nice choke point ultimate which is balanced by it's range.

If Tesla is not OP then Iron Skin was never OP. Now we have Vortex totally replacing Rhino Stomp.

[101010]

 

Someone finish this sentence in a way that is not silly sounding and I will be a believer...

 

"I was enjoying this game, until some guy in an Rhino warframe came along and ____________, and that ruined my game."

 

died trying to revive me,  (after 7.11 nerf)

 

I just felt the unstoppable urge to repost this. It has made my day. xD

[Mak_Gohae]

No, you can't stun lock enemies. Looking at it base (level 30 obv), and with no mods, you get TWO radial blasts the you're out of energy, or ONE rhino stomp, and an aluminum skin to follow it up.

 

Who is running at level 30 with no mods?

Charge also knocks people down at it costs 25.

[BloodEmperor]

Who is running at level 30 with no mods?

Charge also knocks people down at it costs 25.

whos playing rhino ONLY relying on his skills

Edited May 19, 2013 by BloodEmperor

[101010]

What I want to understand is how people think shield recharge will work under iron skin with no dmg immunity. It will just be a plain race between which is faster your shield recharge powered by your mods and the damage received... Could be fun to watch but most defiantly not enough and it will force people to go all out on shield mods and no HP mods for rhino.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Who is running at level 30 with no mods?

Charge also knocks people down at it costs 25.

It's just for numbers. Lots of people can't find focus, flow, streamline, or continuity so I was using it as a base. Everyone builds differently, so without mods everyone is the same. But if you build rhino for his (mostly) subpar skills, you should play someone like mag. Her 4 is rhino stomp + damage. Anything rhino can do right now is outclassed by someone else.

[101010]

It's just for numbers. Lots of people can't find focus, flow, streamline, or continuity so I was using it as a base. Everyone builds differently, so without mods everyone is the same. But if you build rhino for his (mostly) subpar skills, you should play someone like mag. Her 4 is rhino stomp + damage. Anything rhino can do right now is outclassed by someone else.

 

You shouldn't say that ! Some people here think that we should still play Rhino even though other characters can do everything better ! As long as we have love for the skin and the slooooooooooooow speed.... oh wait...

[FrostWolf]

If Tesla is not OP then Iron Skin was never OP. Now we have Vortex totally replacing Rhino Stomp.

 

How...

 

What aspect is OP?

 

Damage isn't all that great once you get to mid level enemies

 

The fact it can effectively stun lock a single enemy, if you deploy them in a proper array?

 

Or are you talking about   where someone using a Caster speced Vauban to line the Ceiling/about anything with Teslas so an enemy walking in is either stunned or fried by sheer concentrated fire in certain defense missions by taking advantage of the fact that you can deploy as many as you want as long as you have energy?

 

 

If that's the case the only real nerf needed would be number you could deploy however to avoid an issue in running fights due to waiting for older Teslas to despawn -cause they last a while unless they use up their shots- just make it to where when you summon the next one at mas limit it despawns the oldest tesla.

Edited May 19, 2013 by FrostWolf

[GTG3000]

What I want to understand is how people think shield recharge will work under iron skin with no dmg immunity. It will just be a plain race between which is faster your shield recharge powered by your mods and the damage received... Could be fun to watch but most defiantly not enough and it will force people to go all out on shield mods and no HP mods for rhino.

 

Well, three ways are

1) Make it cut down the pause before shield regen kicks in.

2) Make it give some amount/percentage of shield upon casting.

3) Make it regenerate the shield constantly on some rate.

[Dako_Shark]

I was actually extremely baffled at people saying that the Rhino nerf made him useless. x.x It's like, he STILL has 80% damage reduction, which no other frame has. But I think that was at the very early stages of the update. Though I don't play a Rhino, I know that 80% is still damn good. My friend maxed out Iron Skin, that was 22 seconds of invincibility which was kinda cheap. At least 80% damage reduction will keep him on his toes. =P

How is the game being balanced towards a weak playing field? I play both an Ember and a Frost and once they are Rank 30 with some half decent mods, they are pretty bloody good. I have never once thought, well, I should change warframes because this one is weak. I think people are just raging because they can't just run in guns blazing while bullets just bounce off their perfectly chiseled pecs anymore. 

Personally. The Rhino nerf is good, after the bug gets fixed it's worth using still. As for Banshee, I never played her so I don't know how her soundquake works, but if people are complaining, maybe give a small damage reduction? I know it's not full invulnerability but it's still something.

[Mak_Gohae]

whos playing rhino ONLY relying on his skills

 

A lot of people seem to only be playing Rhino for Iron Skin

 

It's just for numbers. Lots of people can't find focus, flow, streamline, or continuity so I was using it as a base. Everyone builds differently, so without mods everyone is the same. But if you build rhino for his (mostly) subpar skills, you should play someone like mag. Her 4 is rhino stomp + damage. Anything rhino can do right now is outclassed by someone else.

 

Unless you are one of those Warframes that gets loads of energy you should always run Flow or something else to help you with the consumption of energy.

 

No i dont play Rhino or any other Warframe just to use one single skill over and over.

And it's not about how one skill can be better than another is about a combination of all the skills, the stats, and what weapons you use.

You were saying how you cant stun-lock with the energy? Well how effective is Mag going to be only using Crush which is a 100 energy ability?

At level 30 she had a base of 150 so once you get that crush out..... you are done, right?

Cause what are you going to do? Take enemies shields away once? Oh you can pull 2 times which is a single target stun...which LESS effective that charge. 

[GTG3000]

I was actually extremely baffled at people saying that the Rhino nerf made him useless. x.x It's like, he STILL has 80% damage reduction, which no other frame has. But I think that was at the very early stages of the update. Though I don't play a Rhino, I know that 80% is still damn good. My friend maxed out Iron Skin, that was 22 seconds of invincibility which was kinda cheap. At least 80% damage reduction will keep him on his toes. =P

How is the game being balanced towards a weak playing field? I play both an Ember and a Frost and once they are Rank 30 with some half decent mods, they are pretty bloody good. I have never once thought, well, I should change warframes because this one is weak. I think people are just raging because they can't just run in guns blazing while bullets just bounce off their perfectly chiseled pecs anymore. 

Personally. The Rhino nerf is good, after the bug gets fixed it's worth using still. As for Banshee, I never played her so I don't know how her soundquake works, but if people are complaining, maybe give a small damage reduction? I know it's not full invulnerability but it's still something.

 

Because 80% damage resist isn't as good as Embers 91%, and nor is it a panic god-mode button any more, that with no more immunity to poison and disruption and no more shield regen while under it.