Phoenix86 Posted May 18, 2013 Share Posted May 18, 2013 (edited) So...dont u think all this is a bit strange?? Let's seee what basically we have got from 7.11 - Vauban joins Tenno's ranks - Rhino leaves them (ok maybe it's an exaggeration but it's not so far from reality) Rhino's Iron Skin remained unchanged from the very begin of the game as far as i know till now, why now? Ok there was 3-4 threads of ppl QQ'ing about his god mode spam, and surely it needed to be twicked somehow... But not like this, give it back its CC immunity (to ancients, shockwaves, KB/KD) and i'll be fine! But a plain nerf? Without balancing? KNOWING EXACTLY THAT ALL HIS OTHER SKILLS WERE SUB-PAR? And at the same time comes Vauban, new shiny frame all hunting for him... but what's his place in a team? Let's see: He have a #1 DPS skill and 3* Hard CC skills that do the following: #2: send enemies into orbit (ranged) #3: lift them suspended in air (ranged) #4: stop them and destroy them into a small black hole (ranged) If u notice all his skills do basically 1 job: avoid enemies that are charging toward you to actually reach you and your team in various manners... and which warframe was doing the same job till 12hrs ago?? RHINO! Yes, Rhino was the guy that was standing between monsters and the team, it was is role basically... and he was reduntant with the new shiny toy, it was too much. Rhino's Ult = Vauban's #3 (and Vauban has the advantage that it's not his ult and it's ranged) Rhino's #3 = Vauban's #2 (Rhino's KD, Vauban's let em fly, basically it does the same thing, just different animation) Vauban's Ult in the end acts like an Iron Skinned Rhino: that vortex drags all enemies into itself, killing them, without harming the player that can stay safe at distance (oh look! they are quite similar in what they do, isnt it?) To conclude: Iron Skin needed a rework, but a careful one, not this sh** plain nerf without balance, and they catched the complaints of a few players of the community to partially cover this while they were throwing out basically it's substitute in Infested Defenses, because where do you think Vauban's skillset will give its best if not there? Where Rhino were... These are my toughts, now if any DE happen to read this i really hope he will say "No, you are wrong" are explaine why because this job (Iron Skin rework) needed way more attention than what u've given to it, you basically deleted Rhino from his main job. Now you are free to support this or shoot me to the legs, i dont mind. MY INTENT IS TO lead Devs to do a complete and full rework of Rhino because it lost its role in this game. edit: SUGGESTED FIXES FOR RHINO: - Iron skin MUST ignore Ancients abilities to poison and disrupt, after all my skin is made of Iron, why poison or "magic" should affect me? Dmg reduction still 80%, no shield's recharge - Radial Blast, its damage must be equal do Slash Dash or Ice Wave damage. These are my 2 easy fix to make Rhino good and overall ENJOYNABLE once again without being OP as before. Edited May 18, 2013 by Phoenix86 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inberun Posted May 18, 2013 Share Posted May 18, 2013 ITS A CONSPIRACY. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3XT3RM1NATUS Posted May 18, 2013 Share Posted May 18, 2013 (edited) Hey, some valid points there Edited May 18, 2013 by 3XT3RM1NATUS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mir. Posted May 18, 2013 Share Posted May 18, 2013 That was kinda what happened to Mag, before banshee's release though. Banshee sorta claimed her spot of room cleaners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BraveDude8 Posted May 18, 2013 Share Posted May 18, 2013 Y'know, that actually kinda maybe probably makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AscendantWyvern Posted May 18, 2013 Share Posted May 18, 2013 (edited) Rhino's Ult = Vauban's #3 (and Vauban has the advantage that it's not his ult and it's ranged)At the expense of half the diameter at max and no impact damage. Rhino's #3 = Vauban's #2 (Rhino's KD, Vauban's let em fly, basically it does the same thing, just different animation)I don't entirely see the correlation, other than them being knockdown abilities on enemies, Radial Blast is a PBAOE attack while Bounce is a target area with a small AOE. They simply dont work the same. Vauban's Ult in the end acts like an Iron Skinned Rhino: that vortex drags all enemies into itself, killing them, without harming the player that can stay safe at distance (oh look! they are quite similar in what they do, isnt it?) Iron Skin is a 50 power high damage reduction while Vortex is a typical "press 4, wipe board" ability, only real difference is range. Vauban has striking similarities with other abilities of other warframes, but Rhino is probably the least similar. Vauban is more of a squishy Frost if you ask me. Edited May 18, 2013 by AscendantWyvern Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoenix86 Posted May 18, 2013 Author Share Posted May 18, 2013 I was askin myself when i had the chance to debate, here we go, thx Ascendant Before start 2 things: - Maximum respect to you, everyone has it's PoV - Let's not degenerate ok? Now to answer you: About Vauban's 3#: Well if a non-Ult had the same power of an Ult it would be kinda... you know what i mean. Ofc it's smaller, because it is a non-ult ranged skill! that's the price for not being forced to be right in the middle, also it costs less. Yes it has half the diameter but you can place it where you want without the need to stay right in the middle, it's fair to me, did you want it completely OP? ^^ Beside all this do you agree that they do the same thing? Avoid enemies to touch you/your team About Vauban's #2: LOL that is exactly the correlation, it's an AoE KD ability, exactly the same purpose except that it is once again ranged on vauban (which is better) About Vauban's Ult: You cast it, all enemies are pulled & lured into the black hole which proceed to kill them; what did u do with Iron Skin? Cast, go in the middle, meele them down 1 by 1, result? Same They could have renamed it: "Summon an Iron Skinned Rhino with a Scindo", it does the same thing: block enemies in 1 spot and kill them all. I did not say THEY ARE THE SAME, i did say THEY ACCOMPLISH THE SAME ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BETAOPTICS Posted May 18, 2013 Share Posted May 18, 2013 (edited) Almost good comparison, only thing you forget that Vauban has poor initial durability as opposed to Rhino which in my opinion, has great durability. The way I see it that Vauban and Rhino are meant to fill somewhat same role but with a completely different manner. Vauban is more energy depended and if there are no teammates to back him up, a swarm of enemies can easily outnumber him and your game is over when that happens. Rhino can deal pressure better, even if his abilities are all close range abilities, he can take a pounding and still he is able to completely hold down a horde. What differs is how and where you tackle the enemies,Vauban has ranged abilities and is usually able to hold a place down as long as he is not in the most front lines of allies and is not focused upon wheres Rhino can still go and lock down a place, far or close by. I also feel that because of the fact that Vauban is depended on range and energy, his game will be completely destroyed by the Infested, depleting his energy as well as closing the gap between Vauban and Infested horde, this is the place where Rhino shines as he is not as depended of what enemy faction you fight against.So what would could make Rhino more appealing to major audience again? Like OP said and I agree, return his CC immunity so that he can become that nearly unstoppable force in the battlefield if needed and consider at least somewhat buffing some ratio of the ability or initial durability so he can outmatch Ember. What comes to Vauban? Well he certainly is powerful but he has clear exploitable weaknesses in his kit and he seems to be high risk high reward play style Frame, at least on later levels. Edited May 18, 2013 by BETAOPTICS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AscendantWyvern Posted May 18, 2013 Share Posted May 18, 2013 (edited) I was askin myself when i had the chance to debate, here we go, thx Ascendant Before start 2 things: - Maximum respect to you, everyone has it's PoV - Let's not degenerate ok? I agree, and I appreciate the opportunity for a civil discussion on the matter About Vauban's 3#: Well if a non-Ult had the same power of an Ult it would be kinda... you know what i mean. Ofc it's smaller, because it is a non-ult ranged skill! that's the price for not being forced to be right in the middle, also it costs less. Yes it has half the diameter but you can place it where you want without the need to stay right in the middle, it's fair to me, did you want it completely OP? ^^ My thoughts on the subject is that, yes, they both do the same job, but Rhino's ultimate still does it better, a shorter casting time, extremely wide range, long stun time, along with some damage to boot (Though the damage is trivial, so that personally means little). This is bought with 25 power. Do I agree they play the same CC role? Yes, very much so in this instance. However, how they are played out makes them stand out individually, with the squishiness of Vauban adhering to his distant casting role and Rhino being tought enough to get in the fray and unleash his stomp. Personally, I don't mind abilities taking on similar roles, it's not uncommon in other abilties as long as it is properly balanced. About Vauban's #2: LOL that is exactly the correlation, it's an AoE KD ability, exactly the same purpose except that it is once again ranged on vauban (which is better) Ah but again, remember that the short term roles are DRASTICALLY different, Bounce is small AOE, affects only one target at a time, and does minimal damage, mostly at the balance of being 25 power cheaper than Radial Blast, which is large AOE, multiple target and does a worthy amount of damage. They have similar long term roles as "crowd control" but the effect each do differs immensely. About Vauban's Ult: You cast it, all enemies are pulled & lured into the black hole which proceed to kill them; what did u do with Iron Skin? Cast, go in the middle, meele them down 1 by 1, result? Same They could have renamed it: "Summon an Iron Skinned Rhino with a Scindo", it does the same thing: block enemies in 1 spot and kill them all. That seems very "Apples and Oranges" to me, Iron Skin is very much a more manual and physical concept as opposed to Vortex. Again, just about any power can "essentially" be used to wipe the board the only thing that differs is their way of using it. Granted, a Rhino with Iron Skin and Scindo come in and come out unscathed and bathed in blood, they can not draw enemies to themselves, they still have to go up and to the dirty work. Meanwhile Vortex, being 50 power more expensive, draws the enemies in...and does the job that Rhino just did with a single button press, however, anyone outside of Vortex's range can still fire at a rather squishy Vauban so he isn't entirely as durable. I did not say THEY ARE THE SAME, i did say THEY ACCOMPLISH THE SAME ;)Aye, I can agree with that, but note that Frost and Nyx can also accomplish the same tasks in the CC market. When it comes to this scenario, it mostly comes to focusing on what works for you. Do you want to be down in the dirty, nitty gritty? Rhino's your man. How bout standing there, guns ready at a poor hapless target as he unwittingly falls for your powers? Vauban's your guy. Edited May 18, 2013 by AscendantWyvern Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3XT3RM1NATUS Posted May 18, 2013 Share Posted May 18, 2013 Bounce can affect multiple targets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoenix86 Posted May 18, 2013 Author Share Posted May 18, 2013 I suggest 2, only and just 2 things to make Rhino viable again and at the same not OP/godmode as before: - Iron skin MUST ignore Ancients abilities to poison and disrupt, after all my skin is made of Iron, why poison or "magic" should affect me? - Radial Blast, its damage must be equal do Slash Dash damage. These are my 2 easy fix to make Rhino good and overall ENJOYNABLE once again without being OP as before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePrdator Posted May 18, 2013 Share Posted May 18, 2013 Stock up on vanilla warframes, cause by the look of other warframes taking eachothers usages it sounds like the secound series of frames are coming Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steemship Posted May 18, 2013 Share Posted May 18, 2013 Saying that Rhino is replaced by Vauban just doesn't stand up...Vauban is the squishiest warframe in the game and he has a feeble shield cap. Vauban does have a higher power supply to cover this deficit and that is the only way he is arguably better, but as a tank, he isn't...but he is close. The problem is that Rhino's armor is virtually useless since everyone relies on shields because they regenerate. The above brings up the issue of Armor not effect shields (Which it should so that armor isn't only useful for saving your life...it should be useful through the whole process) Possibly, the new mod Diamond Skin fixes this, but that remains to be seen and armor shouldn't need a mod to be useful. However, saying that Rhino's abilities do need a rework is totally true. His 3 and 4 were pretty much the same thing. His 1 is a gimped excalibur's 1 and his 2 was the only redeeming quality. Nerfing his second ability would've been fine if not for his pathetic other abilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crncogorac Posted May 18, 2013 Share Posted May 18, 2013 (edited) - Iron skin MUST ignore Ancients abilities to poison and disrupt, after all my skin is made of Iron, why poison or "magic" should affect me? Well said man! they nerfed rhino hard. i knew this was coming n i had no problems with nerfing godmode. its 80% dmg reduction now. what HARD NERF actually is - while iron skin is active rhino is vulnerable to effects that mobs do. for example ancient disruptor can hit/throw down/take all energy, stomp moas throw rhino on the ground, poison ancients intoxicates.............. all this while iron skin is active! basically this means that if rhino has 1000 shields, when iron skin is cast he has somewhere around 1600-1700 shields. the most important thing for me when i was playing rhino was making sure i can get to my fallen team members and revive them. but cuz of this effects that is not an option any more. NO MORE GUARDIAN ANGEL TO WATCH OVER UR SHOULDER!!! Edited May 18, 2013 by crncogorac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aerensiniac Posted May 18, 2013 Share Posted May 18, 2013 Meet the most expensive, 375 platinum warframe in the market Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AscendantWyvern Posted May 18, 2013 Share Posted May 18, 2013 I suggest 2, only and just 2 things to make Rhino viable again and at the same not OP/godmode as before: - Iron skin MUST ignore Ancients abilities to poison and disrupt, after all my skin is made of Iron, why poison or "magic" should affect me? - Radial Blast, its damage must be equal do Slash Dash damage. These are my 2 easy fix to make Rhino good and overall ENJOYNABLE once again without being OP as before. I wouldnt mind these additions, I never found Radial Blast truly worth its cost and maybe adding a good damage number can fix that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoenix86 Posted May 18, 2013 Author Share Posted May 18, 2013 I wouldnt mind these additions, I never found Radial Blast truly worth its cost and maybe adding a good damage number can fix that. Thx for supporting this, i really hope a DE will answer soon... Edited first post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoenix86 Posted May 19, 2013 Author Share Posted May 19, 2013 BUMP, i've been out this weekend, do DE said something about Rhino in other threads? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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