[Nerfframe] Who's Next On Your List?

[OoKeNnEtHoO]

Think it might be good for people to know what they are doing by calling for nerfs because the game isn't challenging enough for them.

 

Maybe ask for better enemy AI and enemies next time?

 

As it stands, no matter how many times nerfs are applied, so long as you can dish out a certain level of DPS and have a certain level of Shields, HP and armor, you are still gonna beat the game 9 times out of 10.

 

There are threads calling for nerfs on a daily basis.

 

When a player sees the advantages of some frames (Frame A and B) and compare it to the disadvantages of another few frames (Y and Z), he cries for a nerf of A and B.

 

DE answers his cries and now A and B seem weaker in comparison.

 

Another player sees that Frame A and B are now too weak compared to Y and Z and asks for a nerf on the advantages of Y and Z that he deems OP.

 

DE answers his cries and now Y and Z seem weaker in comparison.

 

Another player now sees the advantages of A and B and find them too OP when compared to Y and Z.....

 

You get the idea. All frames are gonna be nerfed by the time the game is out of Beta. Welcome to NerfFrame.

 

 

 

 

The only advice I can give to everyone is to get as many frames as you can then play them when they are considered the best and switch to another frame once they are nerfed. (Thank God I have Excalibur, Rhino, Volt, Ash, Trinity, Loki and Banshee)

 

I can predict that the next nerf thread is gonna start anytime soon.

 

Maybe it will be a nerf thread on Volt using the same reasoning as the above poster on his Overload ability or one on Excalibur on his Slash Dash and Radial Blind seeing how so many Rhino users says they are now switching back to him.

 

Hmm..or it could be Trinity given the reasoning that some people say she tanks better than Rhino now or perhaps Frost since there are now people saying Frost beats Rhino in everything now and some are saying Snowglobe is too strong.

 

Maybe it will be on Loki? Seeing how some people are saying his invisibility is Godmode with high damage. Hell, maybe Ash will get drag in too.

 

Saryn might be a good choice too since there are some saying her Miasma is too good compared to others.

 

Or better yet, Vauban. There are some saying some of his skills are really strong and one replaces Rhino Stomp, making Rhino obselete for CC. Maybe some will even bring in the fact that he has the only mobile/throwable ulti in game now.

 

Hard to guess. Which frame do think will be nerfed next in this endless cycle?

 

COME ON GUYS, PLACE YOUR BETS!

 

 

 

 

 

 

On a more serious note (Taken from below and elsewhere):

 

The thing is difficulty isn't the same concept as challenge.

 

By lowering damage dealt by us, we have effectively drag out the fight between the enemies and us.

 

That is an increase in difficulty but not in challenge.

 

This is because there is no change in our strategy of "mod up every weapon with damage mods, mod up every frame with hp, shield and survivability mods" and win but now at a dragged out time.

 

Effectively it is the same with buffing enemy stats like HP and shields.

 

A challenging enemy need not be one with high HP at all. Just look at all the other coop games and their assortment of enemies and you will realise that not all of them are "tanks".

 

Most of them have some form of ability that takes power and control away from one player and this forces the other players in the team to save him.

 

Some of them have AI that allows for squad tactics among the different types of enemies.

 

What we have in Warframe are bullet sponges and some of these but unfortunately extremely poorly implemented.

 

Take shield lancers for example. He doesn't follow the player so we can just run past him and shoot him in the back while he continues facing one general direction. The other enemy AIs doesn't seem to know to use him as a shield (Payday: The Heist does this really well) and his shield doesn't even cover him from the front completely. Thus, bam bam..he's dead, making him no different from any of the other bullet sponges.

 

Now look at shield ospreys. They should be the priority target since their shielding ability shields other enemies from fire but seeing how their shields can't even block our fire allowing us to take out the "shielded" enemies in a single shot, allows us to completely ignore it.

 

The point I'm bringing across, not just to you but also the entire community is, you can keep focusing on tweaking weapons and frames' stats and requesting for new ones updates after updates, but if you do not focus on the enemies which you use this items on, this game isn't going to last for a long time.

 

Eventually, the developers will run out of ideas on frames and weapons and the novelty of new frames and weapons will die (in fact, the similarity in spells of Vauban to older frames arguably suggests ideas may already be running out) and what you have left with are uninteresting enemies which are poorly implemented both in design and AI or just bullet sponges in general.

This^^^

 

Been trying to bring this point across to people on this forums from a long time.

 

The view should not be frame vs frame, skill vs skill, stats vs stats comparison.

 

It should have all along been Tenno vs Enemies comparison.

 

You want challenge?

 

Get some better enemies then and no I don't mean in terms of their stats. I mean in terms of AI and engagement techniques. No point nerfing everything when your modded items still one shot all the bullet sponges the enemies have to offer.

 

Where are the enemies that can kill you if you make a slight mistake on the timing of the dodge/block (they need to rework these 2 mechanics)?

 

Where are the enemies that you HAVE TO cooperate with each other in order to fight against?

 

Where are the enemies with immunities all over but a hidden weakspot somewhere like the Jackal?

 

Where are the enemies that sneak up on you and scare the living daylights out of you for not paying attention?

 

There are so many coop games out there with better enemies that can be studied and copied and there's no point churning out tons of new frames and weapons every update if the opposition that we are using these items against just plain suck &#!.

 

 

 

Not saying I want it to be nerfed but it's not my call either. Unfortunately, I'm not one of those who writes the nerf threads.

 

In fact, I don't think any of the frames should be nerfed unless it is just so good to the point everyone is running it because it just plains beat everything else. So far, I have never seen this situation of 4 players running the same frame.

 

The only thing I want to see from the developers are not more nerfs but complete reworks and improvement of enemy AI and squad tactics, and new enemies and bosses that are not bullet sponges which can easily killed by leveling up your damage, vitality and redirection mods high enough. This is the kind of challenge I want.

 

The purpose of this thread is actually to highlight to both developers and nerf thread starters on the issue of constant nerfing and power creep (where new content beats old content, making the old content which players invested lots of time and effort in completely wasted, &!$$ing off and driving them away from the game). I intentionally did it in a somewhat sarcastic but also lighthearted manner instead of just screaming outright about just how bad I feel about the direction the game is heading: NerfFrame where everything is useless but yet the game is still unchallenging and boring due to enemy variety and AI.

 

That said, which frame do you think will have its nerf thread next? =)

 

COME ON GUYS, PLACE YOUR BETS!

Edited May 19, 2013 by OoKeNnEtHoO

[LunchBoxKilla]

Volt....Get rid of his nikies

[OoKeNnEtHoO]

Volt....Get rid of his nikies

 

My money's on Excalibur. Unfortunately, he's my favourite.

[Strac_CRO]

rumor : Lotus will be the next  one nerfed !!!!!

[Spellcasterz]

Doubt its Vauban seeing how he is DE´s momentary new shiny pony.

 

Personally my money is on Trinity´s Link.

[Junkyard]

I believe that our in-game mastery rank should appear on our forum avatar. This way, everyone will know how long the person calling for nerf of a frame has been playing the game. I am just tired of new and overreacting players crying nerf every time a high level player shows up in a low level map with an unranked frame and stole all the kills with a fully modded rank 30 Hek and vice versa.

 

As for who's next... I say, Volt - Folks just kept comparing his Overload with Banshee's Sound Quake.

[OoKeNnEtHoO]

I believe that our in-game mastery rank should appear on our forum avatar. This way, everyone will know how long the person calling for nerf of a frame has been playing the game.

 

That's an excellent idea.

 

Should also make it a requirement for these people to show how much time they have played as the frame they want to nerf.

 

Otherwise, they are just basing their judgement on hearsay and looking at other people play.

[SpiderWaifu]

So, I'm a bit confused by this whole thing. I heard Banshee got nerfed, but I didn't pay much attention, never planned to play her.

Rhino on the other hand... I'm actually fine with it's nerf? I havn't used him since the 'nerf' (Account reset and all) but to me, 75, or 80% damage reduction isn't a major nerf. It's sure as hell better than most frames get. The only way I'd have a problem with the reduced protection is if Rhino no longer activated man-mode with Iron Skin, and could be staggered while using it. Are you still immune to stagger and knock downs while it's active?

[Otaiken]

So, I'm a bit confused by this whole thing. I heard Banshee got nerfed, but I didn't pay much attention, never planned to play her.

Rhino on the other hand... I'm actually fine with it's nerf? I havn't used him since the 'nerf' (Account reset and all) but to me, 75, or 80% damage reduction isn't a major nerf. It's sure as hell better than most frames get. The only way I'd have a problem with the reduced protection is if Rhino no longer activated man-mode with Iron Skin, and could be staggered while using it. Are you still immune to stagger and knock downs while it's active?

 

They also managed to bug him, so you're no loner immune to staggers and knock down. Unfortunately because of the server problems and delay of the patch on friday, it means we're stuck with this ton of bugs till monday. This is why you DON'T patch on Fridays.

[OoKeNnEtHoO]

So, I'm a bit confused by this whole thing. I heard Banshee got nerfed, but I didn't pay much attention, never planned to play her.

Rhino on the other hand... I'm actually fine with it's nerf? I havn't used him since the 'nerf' (Account reset and all) but to me, 75, or 80% damage reduction isn't a major nerf. It's sure as hell better than most frames get. The only way I'd have a problem with the reduced protection is if Rhino no longer activated man-mode with Iron Skin, and could be staggered while using it. Are you still immune to stagger and knock downs while it's active?

 

Banshee's Sound Quake no longer grants you immunity while using it. It's stagger is removed and damage is lowered so basically all the mobs that it doesn't kill immediately will charge in and kill you while you are using it and you can't do anything about it.

 

Rhino's 80% damage reduction comes with no toxic immunity, stagger and knockback immunity though I heard loss of stagger and knockback immunity is a bug which will be fixed.

 

80% damage reduction with toxic, knockback and stagger immunity along with buffs to his other skills will make him viable again.

 

Until then, he is pretty useless. Recommend you use something else.

Edited May 18, 2013 by OoKeNnEtHoO

[Blackchaosvortex]

Next on the list? It's the grineer!

[SpiderWaifu]

Banshee's Sound Quake no longer grants you immunity while using it. It's stagger is removed and damage is lowered so basically all the mobs that it doesn't kill immediately will charge in and kill you while you are using it and you can't do anything about it.

 

Rhino's 80% damage reduction comes with no toxic immunity, stagger and knockback immunity though I heard loss of stagger and knockback immunity is a bug which will be fixed.

 

I reaaaallly hope that's fixed. I may or may not rebuild my Rhino, but I still hope that's fixed. For me, the main draw of Ironskin was being able to go man-mode against a charger swarm. I could still have done that with 80% damage reduction, as long as I've got stagger immunity.

[OoKeNnEtHoO]

My money's on Excalibur. Unfortunately, he's my favourite.

 

 

I just read some "feedback" threads on Vauban saying how awesome all his skills are.

 

I'm changing my bet from Excalibur to Vauban.

Edited May 18, 2013 by OoKeNnEtHoO

[SpiderWaifu]

I just read some "feedback" threads on Vauban saying how awesome all his skills are.

 

I'm changing my bet from Excalibur to Vauban.

 

His skills are alright. Vortex and Tesla are definitely the best for damage on him, though Tesla needs a tad bit of work done on it. Vortex is just like any AOE Panic button ultimate. Bassille is out-shined by Frosts Party globe in terms of CC, simply because it's a shield too. Don't get me wrong, it's a nice tool, but it's area needs to be changed. It should be more like a sphere, than a rectangle-thingy. I tossed it above an enemy, and it stuck to the wall just above him. The rectangle grid wasn't touching him, so he wasn't pulled it.

[OoKeNnEtHoO]

His skills are alright. Vortex and Tesla are definitely the best for damage on him, though Tesla needs a tad bit of work done on it. Vortex is just like any AOE Panic button ultimate. Bassille is out-shined by Frosts Party globe in terms of CC, simply because it's a shield too. Don't get me wrong, it's a nice tool, but it's area needs to be changed. It should be more like a sphere, than a rectangle-thingy. I tossed it above an enemy, and it stuck to the wall just above him. The rectangle grid wasn't touching him, so he wasn't pulled it.

 

Not saying I want it to be nerfed but it's not my call either. Unfortunately, I'm not one of those who writes the nerf threads.

 

In fact, I don't think any of the frames should be nerfed unless it is just so good to the point everyone is running it because it just plains beat everything else. So far, I have never seen this situation of 4 players running the same frame.

 

The only thing I want to see from the developers are not more nerfs but complete reworks and improvement of enemy AI and squad tactics, and new enemies and bosses that are not bullet sponges which can easily killed by leveling up your damage, vitality and redirection mods high enough. This is the kind of challenge I want.

 

The purpose of this thread is actually to highlight to both developers and nerf thread starters on the issue of constant nerfing and power creep (where new content beats old content, making the old content which players invested lots of time and effort in completely wasted, pissing off and driving them away from the game). I intentionally did it in a somewhat sarcastic but also lighthearted manner instead of just screaming outright about just how bad I feel about the direction the game is heading: NerfFrame where everything is useless but yet the game is still unchallenging and boring due to enemy variety and AI.

 

That said, which frame do you think will have its nerf thread next? =)

[Kiry]

Let the Prophet speak :D

 

First gona be Saryn Miasma , if not rollers xD

Trinity Link + Vampire combo.

Then gota be Frost Snow globe.

After that probly Cali`s Javelin.Remove that crap armor pierce effect.

Cut a little Mags Crush range and Volt Overload.

Then Loki/Ash invisibility gota be shorten for couple of seconds.

Ash blade storm cast range and armor pierce effect.

Vauban Tesla and Cali SlashDash.

 

 

[OoKeNnEtHoO]

Let the Prophet speak :D

 

First gona be Saryn Miasma , if not rollers xD

Trinity Link + Vampire combo.

Then gota be Frost Snow globe.

After that probly Cali`s Javelin.Remove that crap armor pierce effect.

Cut a little Mags Crush range and Volt Overload.

Then Loki/Ash invisibility gota be shorten for couple of seconds.

Ash blade storm cast range and armor pierce effect.

Vauban Tesla and Cali SlashDash.

 

Wow, that's a huge gamble you're taking.

 

I'm taking sequence into account too.

[Pi_Masta]

...it means we're stuck with [a] ton of bugs till monday. This is why you DON'T patch on Fridays.

 

I normally agree with this statement in software development, but DE appears to either work on weekends (at least when a large update like so happens) or have some rotating staff to help fix any bugs that snuck out of internal testing. https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/39130-update-7100-weekend-extermination-event/#entry372423'>The 7.10 weekend extermination event was released on a Friday and they fixed some small issues with hotfix, namely game breaking ones that, although I can't confirm, I think came out on that Saturday. 

 

If the company is willing to fix issues that inevitably come from a large patch/update on the weekends, there's no issue with deploying on Fridays. Unfortunately the issues with Rhino (immunity to stun/stagger) aren't exactly game breaking compared to the things like: Paris users unable to pick up ammo in 7.10, nor a simple fix like Osprey model scale (basically a single value needed to change). This does probably mean these issue won't be fully fixed until Monday or so.

 

I'm guessing that Rhino immunity issues will take some code changes, as I doubt there is just a simple flag for each ability that makes you 'immune to stun/stagger for the duration' that got turned off completely for Iron Skin by mistake. It's more likely they enable some flag that is special for while iron skin is on, and disable it when its off and make sure any abnormal event that disables the ability like dieing (probably others like host migration) also turns it off or else you have perma iron skin, or at least perma stun/stagger immunity, which would be rather game breaking. No one can write perfect code so these changes would need to be tested internally first (aka needs time), as unfortunately in my experience, fixing one issue can cause what appears to be an unrelated issue to appear and need fixing as well.

 

TL;DR

Patching on Fridays is fine if you support and fix issues on Saturday and/or Sunday which I think DE does. It also makes some sense for a game development company as your customers (players) are mostly playing Friday-Sunday which is when you will get the most feedback. Compared to normal software development where customers use the software Monday-Friday and updates on Saturday or Sunday aren't going to see much feedback until Monday.

 

Apologies for getting a bit off topic, though I was surprised they nerfed Banshee and Rhino as opposed to Excalibur's Slash Dash. I personally think it just needs a slight damage nerf, it shouldn't kill the higher level [fodder] enemies in one slash, now 2 slashes sure, as that bumps the energy cost to 50.

[se05239]

Trinity, probably.

[corpseshock]

Top 10 ranked players should be nerfed.

Edited May 18, 2013 by corpseshock

[OoKeNnEtHoO]

There's balancing something and then there's making it useless because it's better than something else.

 

The shotgun nerf for example, before DE fixed it, was so extreme and unnecessary, and it was a sweep nerf as well so it targeted all three of them. For some reason because the Hek was deemed overpowered this was apparently good reason to nerf the Strun and Boar as well, neither of which were overpowered.

 

DE has this bizarre mentality of "nerf hard first and take feedback later." A DE employee in the clan I'm in took flak yesterday for the Rhino skin nerf prior to it being explained that the toxic/stun immunity being removed was accidental. Somebody brought up that Trinity can now tank better than Rhino. The employee's response? "Oh we're going to nerf her as well." So basically, because Rhino is now worse than Trinity, the answer isn't to rework Rhino to make him a better tank, but to nerf Trinity into the ground when she's already useless outside boss fights.

 

Dammit..change my bet to Trinity.

Edited May 18, 2013 by OoKeNnEtHoO

[Vabla]

Just give everyone 1 shield, 1 hp, make all weapons do 1 damage and shoot once per second. All the skills should do the same 1 damage but have different names because they can't have the same name since they are completely different skills.

 

There. Perfect balance.

[Raanaar]

Dammit..change my bet to Trinity.

 

Wow, I really hope what's in that big quote is not real.

If they have this kind of mentality.. sad.

 

If they swing around the nerfbat like that, that would be a huge disappointment.

Seriously, Trinity has zero offensive abilities anyway.

Edited May 18, 2013 by Christo92K

[OoKeNnEtHoO]

Wow, I really hope what's in that big quote is not real.

If they have this kind of mentality.. sad.

 

If they swing around the nerfbat like that, that would be a huge disappointment.

Seriously, Trinity has zero offensive abilities anyway.

 

Don't worry.

 

It's a comparison game.

 

After Trinity is nerfed, it will seem worse than something else and people will ask for that to be nerfed too.

 

All the frames are gonna get their share.

 

It's just a matter of who gets it first.

[muccmaster]

Let the Prophet speak :D

 

First gona be Saryn Miasma , if not rollers xD

Trinity Link + Vampire combo.

Then gota be Frost Snow globe.

After that probly Cali`s Javelin.Remove that crap armor pierce effect.

Cut a little Mags Crush range and Volt Overload.

Then Loki/Ash invisibility gota be shorten for couple of seconds.

Ash blade storm cast range and armor pierce effect.

Vauban Tesla and Cali SlashDash.

And after all those nerfs everyone quits the game.