Nerfing In General - Quickest Way To Lose Your Playerbase

[Argoms]

Putting it on steam was a terrible move then.

 

The first time you put something on steam, you obviously get a huge user spike. If your game's nowhere near done, people will leave because there's not much to do, and likely not look back.

[Cobalt_Destruction]

 

 

 

And none of this answers anything that has been said.

Beta is not an answer to anything when you are actually selling the items in question for money.

For free players its just a **** load of disappointment, since you have destroyed only god knows how much time and effort they have spent on obtaining and maxing out the sepcific warframe, but there are also the cash players.

 

So with all due respect and to everyone who is calling BETA:

Nobody gives a damn.

Not those who now got 2 useless frames after days or weeks of grinding, not those who spent platinum on it.

 

Sorry kids, this is not how business works.

Nobody questions DE's right to change things, but all change can and will come with repercussions and THAT is what this thread is about.

A few more all around nerfs like the current one, and they can kiss their palyer base good night cause nobody will give a single **** about whether or not its beta, people will leave.

THINK before dumping stuff into the game.

 

The game is being nerfed and fixed because it is in beta. not a good answer or excuse. But they will change things because of that. Yes grinding for two to three weeks and then having that item become useless sucks, but you can always wait for them to fix it. they have specific forums set for weapon changes, warframe changes, game changes, just about anything really. So instead of berating them for their choices, go start a thread explaining why you dislike certain changes, and what you would prefer. and if you get a good following they might look into it.

[fishworshipper]

Let them do what they want and as they want, whenever they want. They do their best and that's what you pretty much want from them.

Just because they're developers doesn't mean they're always right with their decisions 100% of the time. When 99% of the playerbase is going "RIP Rhino" you know you've dun @(*()$ goofed and should probably rolback what you did to Rhino, but they've been reflecting our prickishness instead of just fixing Rhino.

[Uyie]

It's not as if quake or any of the other skills have been nerfed to a point where they're useless. They just have to be used smartly instead of leroy jenkins-in into a crowd.

 

My friend showed me his rhino before and after this update and tbh, all they've done is up the skill needed to play him instead of Godmode. God mode in a fps is a big deal, nobody should be god mode in a fast paced game for that amount of time, imo at least.

Edited May 18, 2013 by Uyie

[Emotitron]

Putting it on steam was a terrible move then.

 

The first time you put something on steam, you obviously get a huge user spike. If your game's nowhere near done, people will leave because there's not much to do, and likely not look back.

 

Yup, a beta on Steam is fool's gold. Mass marketing a not-ready for prime-time beta can seriously backfire on you.

I still haven't heard anything from DE indicating how much they plan to evolve the game or how quickly. This very well be settling out to a 'near-finished' state. In which case I sadly predict a short life-span. They need to become game theory geniuses fast to find a niche for this game with legs. My personal recommendation is to start churning out critters and tilesets, add more advanced mod systems to existing frames/weapons - and then release a developers kit for users to generate dungeons with it.

A third person sci-fi ninja dungeons and dragons-like core could develop its own legs if the community had the means to generate content. It is currently a pretty non-existent market, but one waiting to happen. Hell if I were still in New Media I would form that company myself.

User generated content seems like the way to go, since it really does seem DE can't generate content at the pace needed to maintain a game like this.

Edited May 18, 2013 by Emotitron

[Venarge]

If you're not going to add anything to a discussion, don't post.

You call this discussion xD

Man, you know how to tell a great joke....

Most discussion include something valuable. But all I see here is whining about a frame that was clearly overpowered.

Yeah, the problem with the shop is there. But most of the recent threads are giant amounts of whining.....

Edited May 18, 2013 by Venarge

[DAWGUNITALPHA]

It's not as if quake or any of the other skills have been nerfed to a point where they're useless. They just have to be used smartly instead of leroy jenkins-in into a crowd.

 

My friend showed me his rhino before and after this update and tbh, all they've done is up the skill needed to play him instead of Godmode. God mode in a fps is a big deal, nobody should be god mode in a fast paced game for that amount of time, imo at least.

EDIT: sorry replied to the wrong post.

Except that now if there's even one enemy in the next room over plinking away at you, it's become a death sentence because of how long the animations are. Not even going into how bugged out they are so sometimes enemies will still just straight up shoot at you/not get stunned or maybe the last guy out of three (because you certainly can't use these as an emergency panic button anymore) walked just out of range decided to kill you.

Edited May 18, 2013 by DAWGUNITALPHA

[PapaKicks]

The Dota 2 team manages to update the game every week and not break everything.

 

And even if DE can't update that fast, I'd rather take an update that has been taken care of properly instead of a rushed mess. It's getting tiresome now seeing how much of a mess is made every update, how many new bugs are introduced, how many old bugs rear their heads again etc.

 

How big is DOTA's budget? How big is Warframes? How many developers and testers do each have? You can't just say well EA games does it, so every company is capable of doing it.

Then we will have to disagree. I would much rather have the faster update cycle, bugs included.

[Emotitron]

How big is DOTA's budget? How big is Warframes? How many developers and testers do each have? You can't just say well EA games does it, so every company is capable of doing it.

Then we will have to disagree. I would much rather have the faster update cycle, bugs included.

 

Nonetheless it is a problem DE has to solve. If they don't have the staff to keep up with content demand, they need to find other ways to give the game legs. F2P games unlike $60 packaged games survive on sustained playership, which requires evolving content. My gut says they are either going to find a way to make it a user-content driven game, or it is going to run its course in a little over a year. I think the team is solid and they get gaming, but I don't think they can keep up with what F2P is going to demand of them if they try to treat the game like a typical MMORG.

[Uyie]

EDIT: sorry replied to the wrong post.

Except that now if there's even one enemy in the next room over plinking away at you, it's become a death sentence because of how long the animations are. Not even going into how bugged out they are so sometimes enemies will still just straight up shoot at you/not get stunned or maybe the last guy out of three (because you certainly can't use these as an emergency panic button anymore) walked just out of range decided to kill you.

Mag has the same problem with crush, she isn't invincible, but that means people who play her understand that using it doesn't mean everything's gone and it's completely safe. You have to use them in the right place, which is what rhino players who are complaining at the moment don't understand since previously it was just press and win.

 

Wikipedia says;

 

A tank is a style of character in gaming, often associated with a character class. A common convention in real-time strategy games, role-playing games, MMORPGs, MOBAs and MUDs, tanks redirect enemy attacks and/or attention toward themselves in order to protect other characters or units. Since this role often requires them to suffer large amounts of damage, they rely on large amounts of vitality or armour, or alternatively evasiveness and misdirection.

 

.

People are saying this nerf is bad because he's a tank. Tanks take aggro and damage but compensate for having all that health and armour. They aren't invincible and can die. If the game has a invincibility skill it lasts for a short amount of time which is okay for a mmo. But for a fps type of game like Warframe, where things are constantly going on and you have to adapt as you play through, invincibility is broken. It reduces the amount of skill needed.

 

Also this came up on reddit; (A pdf of someone reviewing Rhino's skills after this patch, including Iron Skin)

http://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/1el7vq/rhino_ability_overhaul/

One of the few people accepting the nerf as needed.

Edited May 18, 2013 by Uyie

[HomeyCDawg]

I think nerfing can be important to game balance, but DE needs to be very careful with it. There is a psychological effect than many game developers overlook.

 

If you give someone candy, then take it away, break it in half, then give it back, the person is going to be upset simply because you gave them the full piece to begin with. The person doesn't care that having the whole thing was unhealthy. That's not how the human brain naturally works. They are only going to care that they had the whole thing and now they don't. If you never gave them the whole piece to begin with, they would have been more than happy with just getting half of it.

 

This is something I see especially prevalent in FTP game. People who have spent time playing LoL (or any number of f2p games) know that when new content is added, it is often releasing in an overpowered state to encourage more sales, then it gets nerfed before the next new OP thing comes out. I suppose this must work from a financial perspective, but it has the side effect of disillusioning many players who feel like their candy will always be taken away.

 

It's a slippery slope to walk between making sure people want to buy your stuff and making sure your stuff remains what people wanted when they bought it.

 

My 2¢

[Otaiken]

At this point I think they should just make Frames mainly cosmetic choice. Give them stats, maybe sonme unique passive and a pool of ability mods to choose from. Something like damage, defense, utility, boost, etc. ability pools. And then give frames certain number of slots for them. So Rhino could get something like 2 defense, 1 utility and 1 damage. And just release frames without any abilities.

 

This way people won't be scared to get something in case it gets nerfed, it would also increase customizability and as a bonus prevent any Pay2Win argument if you release frame that is obtainable by just platinum or something.

[Davoodoo]

You're in the Design Council. Did you know about the upcoming changes? What about the weapon pricing changes? Why doesn't DE consult you guys before making rash decisions? Isn't that what you're there for?

DE - Guys tomorrow we gonna nerf this this and this.

community - OMG nerfs again buff everything instead and make game harder at same time.

 

Thats why DE doesnt tell players about nerfs...

[Captain_Seasick]

Great. Another whiny little weasel whose pet WF was BALANCED, and is now crying until his eyes are almost literally bleeding.

 

Like about 100 people in this thread before me have said about 100 times each:

 

S#&$ HAPPENS. DEAL WITH IT.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Captain_Seasick

[Otaiken]

DE - Guys tomorrow we gonna nerf this this and this.

community - OMG nerfs again buff everything instead and make game harder at same time.

 

Thats why DE doesnt tell players about nerfs...

 

Yet the game is still easy. Because abilities make no difference in the long run (not even the short one imho). Calling for making the game harder is legitimate concern. Preferably in some non-cheap way like increasing HP and numbers of enemies. Failing that they would have to nerf all mods by about 50-70%.

[Otaiken]

Great. Another whiny little beeyotch whose pet WF was BALANCED, and is now crying until his eyes are almost literally bleeding.

 

Like about 100 people in this thread before me have said about 100 times each:

 

S#&$ HAPPENS. DEAL WITH IT.

 

Still oneshotting Pluto mobs with Lato Vandal. Doesn't matter what frame I use. BALANCE multishot, hornet strike and elemental mods by cutting them in half. Now that would be balanced. Also, make total mod energy for frames 30 supercharged. Now you would have to make some serious choices in what you put on that frame. Concurrently make it so shield and health mods max out at 200%. No longer a cakewalk.

Edited May 19, 2013 by LocoWithGun

[Captain_Seasick]

Just to clarify, Loco: my post was aimed at the OP.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Captain_Seasick

[Otaiken]

Just to clarify, Loco: my post was aimed at the OP.

 

People argue that this game needs balancing because it's too easy. That some abilities are too efficient at killing enemies or that Rhino's iron skin is god mode. Well, I'm just trying to point out that these make no difference. And that nerfing Is NOT the way DE should go, because the game is just going to be too easy regardless until they nerf everything in half OR start to seriously think about their difficulty and where to go with it.

It's understandable that people are upset about those nerfs, they're pointless. You don't take away someone's toy for no reason. At least these abilities allow for some alternative fun playstyles as opposed to just obliterating everything with your favorite supermoded weapon. Make those abilities worthless or even less efficient compared to guns than they already are and the game will just get boring.

Edited May 19, 2013 by LocoWithGun

[fishworshipper]

Great. Another whiny little weasel whose pet WF was BALANCED, and is now crying until his eyes are almost literally bleeding.

 

Like about 100 people in this thread before me have said about 100 times each:

 

S#&$ HAPPENS. DEAL WITH IT.

You don't seem to know what the word "balance" means.

Balance is not when you make a tool worse than any other tool for no reason whatsoever by eliminating its one useful quality.

[LoRDxDeMoN]

Hey, guys. Nerfs happen in Warframe all the time. Remember the most recent Gorgon and HEK nerf? What about defense missions not rewarding anything for failure?

 

That's right. DE changed their minds right quick and reversed most of their mistakes. So just give them a few days, and you'll get your toys back.

Edited May 19, 2013 by LoRDxDeMoN

[Captain_Seasick]

I beg to differ. I beg to differ by a trainload. Or something.

 

Take LOKI's decoy. In just about any fight that's challenging, that ability literally means the difference between life and death, ESPECIALLY if you're trying to save a fellow teammate by reviving him.

 

It's the one, tiny grain of hope standing between you and a cascade of "X HAS BEEN DOWNED!" messages and a wave of overwhelming failure. Saying that "abilities are not useful" or even "doesn't make a difference" just makes you look like a fool who has never even used abilities yourself. Yes, some abilities, like Slash & Dash, ARE fairly "useless", but they still make a HUGE difference, no matter what "part" of the game you're in.

[fishworshipper]

I beg to differ. I beg to differ by a trainload. Or something.

 

Take LOKI's decoy. In just about any fight that's challenging, that ability literally means the difference between life and death, ESPECIALLY if you're trying to save a fellow teammate by reviving him.

 

It's the one, tiny grain of hope standing between you and a cascade of "X HAS BEEN DOWNED!" messages and a wave of overwhelming failure. Saying that "abilities are not useful" or even "doesn't make a difference" just makes you look like a fool who has never even used abilities yourself. Yes, some abilities, like Slash & Dash, ARE fairly "useless", but they still make a HUGE difference, no matter what "part" of the game you're in.

When an entire Warframe is completely outclassed by any other Warframe and does nothing unique then you have a problem.

[Jeraggerjack]

Great. Another whiny little weasel whose pet WF was BALANCED, and is now crying until his eyes are almost literally bleeding.

 

Like about 100 people in this thread before me have said about 100 times each:

 

S#&$ HAPPENS. DEAL WITH IT.

 

 

Prejudicial Language

Definition:

• Loaded or emotive terms are used to attach value or moral goodness to believing the proposition.

Examples:

1. Right thinking Canadians will agree with me that we should have another free vote on capital punishment.
2. A reasonable person would agree that our income statement is too low.
3. Senator Turner claims that the new tax rate will reduce the deficit. (Here, the use of "claims" implies that what Turner says is false.)
4. The proposal is likely to be resisted by the bureaucrats on Parliament Hill. (Compare this to: The proposal is likely to be rejected by officials on Parliament Hill.)

Proof:

• Identify the prejudicial terms used (eg. "Right thinking Canadians" or "A reasonable person"). Show that disagreeing with the conclusion does not make a person "wrong thinking" or "unreasonable".

IS's vulnerability to knockback, stun, disruption, toxic clouds, etc. was unintentional by DE's own admission. The OP, pretty much like the majority of players that have a rhino, have raised a legitimate issue. It's not that we're disagreeing with the DR. We're upset because despite repeated warnings to folks that made "nerf it !" threads that if they do that, it is RIP for the rhino. The reason being because Rhino is the slowest warframe in the game. It does not have the option to run away from combat. So with the change, the Rhino is once again vulnerable to disruptors, toxics, knockbacks, stuns, etc. which is NOT WORKING AS INTENDED.

DE had repeated warnings about this from the community and apparently overlooked those warnings when it took the same ham handed approach as it did with the shotguns. Whether that was intentional or not in order for us to be more accepting of the nerf remains to be seen, but regardless, the raising of these issues is 100% justified. We all knew that that these issues would happen and they did it anyway.

If you cannot offer an objective, constructive comment instead of tearing down those giving feedback, regardless of whether it is a rant or not, you would do best to save face and not post anything at all.

This is a beta, everyone has a right to be heard. Respect that right or GTFO.

/rant

Edited May 19, 2013 by Jeraggerjack

[Otaiken]

I beg to differ. I beg to differ by a trainload. Or something.

 

Take LOKI's decoy. In just about any fight that's challenging, that ability literally means the difference between life and death, ESPECIALLY if you're trying to save a fellow teammate by reviving him.

 

It's the one, tiny grain of hope standing between you and a cascade of "X HAS BEEN DOWNED!" messages and a wave of overwhelming failure. Saying that "abilities are not useful" or even "doesn't make a difference" just makes you look like a fool who has never even used abilities yourself. Yes, some abilities, like Slash & Dash, ARE fairly "useless", but they still make a HUGE difference, no matter what "part" of the game you're in.

 

What is a challenging fight? I haven't been in one for a while now. It's good that you mention reviving because about only time I feel challenge is when it's others in danger and not me (because I never am). Also, this just doesn't happen at higher levels. I mainly revive newbies when I happen to play with them. However even then utility abilities like these aren't the ones getting nerfed are they? They nerf dmg abilities, on top of that it's abilities that are mainly used for defense missions and only there could be considered OP. This game is being balanced around endless defense... great.

 

EDIT: Don't edit, it's confusing as hell. I don't consider high level defense proof of challenge in this game. Those enemies are just bullet sponges, that is very cheap and boring way to increase difficulty. They'll have to do better than that, also as I said balancing around endless defense is baaaad.

Edited May 19, 2013 by LocoWithGun

[Captain_Seasick]

Now you're not making any sense whatsoever, fishworshipper.

 

Your supposed "point" that abilities are basically just pretty fluff which DE uses to create some illusion that frames are unique, is pretty much as hollowed out as a rotten old log would be. There is absolutely no such thing as an ability that makes no difference whatsoever. Some abilities, like Super Jump, ARE pretty much mostly fluff, but most other abilities (like Energy Vampire or Pull) can be absolutely crucial when utilised correctly.

 

EDIT: And as for what you said, Loco, I'm guessing you've never gone up against enemies that're twice your own WF/weapon level. Because I can tell you that it's a challenge, no matter your build or set-up.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Captain_Seasick