Nerfing In General - Quickest Way To Lose Your Playerbase

[Venarge]

Yes but how long will we be in beta if their are constantly changes that the community doesn't want or like?

What the community wants? Thats one thing. The other thing is what DE does and has on their table.

And if nerfs are in plan, I dont see why they shouldnt make this just because some people whine about their HEK/Rhino...

This would be like you would give a kid candy after it began to cry for it.... The problem here is that people dont get that in beta, nothing is final.

But I understnad your concerns after all. The difference is how you express it.

 

But the thing about "majority" dislikes?

These threads arent made by majority. They are made by kids that cant use their uber toys anymore. People whined about the U7 mod system etc. And now, they have accepted it and saw the better side of it. Same will happen with some nerfs. People will get over it that they cant use an invulnerable warrior of doom. Or they change to another frame. Or they will stop playing. All in all. These changes arent made to make players upset. They are made to make the game better. But well. Opinions are different....

[TunaMayo]

What the community wants? Thats one thing. The other thing is what DE does and has on their table.

And if nerfs are in plan, I dont see why they shouldnt make this just because some people whine about their HEK/Rhino...

This would be like you would give a kid candy after it began to cry for it.... The problem here is that people dont get that in beta, nothing is final.

But I understnad your concerns after all. The difference is how you express it.

 

But the thing about "majority" dislikes?

These threads arent made by majority. They are made by kids that cant use their uber toys anymore. People whined about the U7 mod system etc. And now, they have accepted it and saw the better side of it. Same will happen with some nerfs. People will get over it that they cant use an invulnerable warrior of doom. Or they change to another frame. Or they will stop playing. All in all. These changes arent made to make players upset. They are made to make the game better. But well. Opinions are different....

I think we have the same basic opinions. I am not trying to whine about nerfs and I know that DE have our best interests at heart. Like how the new mod system has the potential to be awesome (new powers/no need to supercharge for ultis) I feel primes will be awesome too despite the initial hate wave.

I do however, fail to see how simply taking to fun out of stuff without buffing it has that potential. I am sure that they will get a rework and it will all be fine in the end.

Also, if I recall, it was the "minority" agai who started the whole "nerf god mode because it renders other frames useless" threads which resulted in what we have now. Perhaps polls should be implemented in future before making drastic changes?

[Aerensiniac]

The difference between bf and wf is that this is beta. And in beta, changes happen every week. You either get over it or you leave....

Beta means the content of the game isn't complete.

There still isn't : end-game content, a complete dojo, ways to choose dififculty, a chat that is helpfull when you chat with different people, enough tilesets, lore included, a real tutorial, things we don't think of but devs aleady have in mind.

So we can say the game is in beta.

And beta is the right moment to start balancing things.

The only thing is that balancing should be done at the end of content creation, so that new content wouldn't break the balance.

 

Once more: Being in beta has nothing to do with the issue, since Beta and having a rational priority queue are not (i repeat) NOT mutually exclusive concepts.

What do i mean by rational priority queue?

For starters: Maybe not putting a warframe into the game which has an obviously overpowered 2 room wide nuke ultimate, and then leave it like that for 2+ months, letting people buy it for real money, invest time, effort, resources into obtaining and maxing it, just to then get a sudden idea that this is not good and nerf it into the ground without a warning.

 

Balancing is good for the game, cause it ensures (amongst the many) the warranty, longlivety and complexity of the game. That is unless you do it like a retard with 0 sense of empathy and any social skills, leaving OP content in the game for months, and then suddenly removing it from the game without a notice or warning.

Even before this: The entire misery can be prevented by having a coherent concept of what you want to have in your game and what you do not.

I said it myself. If any of my 2 frames will be nerfed to the ground in any similar way, then i will leave the game too. Not because of beta, not because of balance, but because the developers have no idea what the hell they are doing, and im not going to spend time, money and effort on something that can turn all and any form of my investments into a completely obsolete pile of useless mess.

 

I hope that by explaining this the 4th time, its clear.

But just to recap in a tl;dr version:

There are 3 problems, none of which have anything to do with beta:

1. Not thinking through what you put in the game

2. Letting the obviously unbalanced items stay in the game for months without even looking at them and thus allowing players to invest time, effort, resources and platinum in it.

3. Then suddenly without a warning nerfing it into the ground, making everyone's investments obsolete on a moment's notice.

Edited May 20, 2013 by Aerensiniac

[Venarge]

I think we have the same basic opinions

 

Perhaps polls should be implemented in future before making drastic changes?

Agreed on both =)

[Supern00b]

I hope that by explaining this the 4th time, its clear.

Dont say I didnt warn you.

[Aerensiniac]

Dont say I didnt warn you.

Yes you warned me and yes i agree with you.

Still. Anyone who mentions beta in this context is simply strawmanning cause its not a counter argument and does not invalidate what has been said.

Beta and having a not $&*&*#(%& priority queue (or for the same matter an idea what you want to have in your game) are not mutually exclusive concepts.

Anyone who implies this, is simply wrong or lying about it.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Aerensiniac

[krisp]

Nerfs were warranted tbh. Except Rhino losing his disable immunity, that really changed the game and should be brought back.

 

Too much power makes the game stale and it gets you bored fast. You might scream and kick your feet, but in the long run it's better for the playerbase.

[D3thpool]

Except here's the thing. Removing any and all invincibility frames does not a challenge make. Look at excellent games like Devil May Cry 1, 3 and 4 or God Hand. Excellent, challenging combat systems and heavy inclusion of invincibility frames. Now imagine if a game like god hand had these devs behind it and took out all invincibility? It'd be a terribly unfun game after that. Just because they're too lazy to do anything more than up the firing rate of an enemy and rely on stunlock to make things "challenging" doesn't mean we should suffer unbearably dumb design decisions that will cripple the game.

 

This is exactly the point.

Cannot agree more

 

Change the godamn AI, make the content actually more difficult, more demanding & challenging but not bandaiding this problem with nerfs to the tools the players got at their disposal.

Which is just lazy desgin.

Edited May 19, 2013 by D3thpool

[_Chaser]

ok i will explain it for people who have problems with understanding basic things:

 

rhino nerf is result of implementing dojo pvp. if iron skin would not get fixed there would be no point in other frames in pvp. and you would get tons of threads like that asking to nerf rhino.

 

F*** guys, try to think sometimes. they will fix knockback and stuff for sure. don't worry about that. but now, please stop whining like a gagle of little girls and claim end of everything just because obvious OP skill was nerfed.

 

again. PvP. thats the asnwer. you asked for it - you got it. noone want to duel a frame that is invincible.

common @(*()$ sense.

 

sometimes i really wonder if people ever use their brain.

Edited May 19, 2013 by n7snk

[TunaMayo]

ok i will explain it for people who have problems with understanding basic things:

 

rhino nerf is result of implementing dojo pvp. if iron skin would not get fixed there would be no point in other frames in pvp. and you would get tons of threads like that asking to nerf rhino.

 

F*** guys, try to think sometimes. they will fix knockback and stuff for sure. don't worry about that. but now, please stop whining like a gagle of little girls and claim end of everything just because obvious OP skill was nerfed.

 

again. PvP. thats the asnwer. you asked for it - you got it. noone want to duel a frame that is invincible.

common @(*()$ sense.

 

sometimes i really wonder if people ever use their brain.

 

Small forum etiquette, don't be rude, people don't like that.

 

I did however get the same sneaking suspicion when I first heard of the Iron Skin nerf. I remember DE saying "no skills will be altered for PVP", and then after this update I could almost hear them saying "so we altered them before PVP to fool you all!!!".

 

I hope this is not their original reasoning for changing the power, but I have a feeling the change is staying nonetheless. 

[_Chaser]

Small forum etiquette, don't be rude, people don't like that.

 

I did however get the same sneaking suspicion when I first heard of the Iron Skin nerf. I remember DE saying "no skills will be altered for PVP", and then after this update I could almost hear them saying "so we altered them before PVP to fool you all!!!".

 

I hope this is not their original reasoning for changing the power, but I have a feeling the change is staying nonetheless. 

i apologise for rude expressions, but i felt completely overrun by people who can't see cause and effect, so had to use rather sharp kind of terms to explain whats going on, since some people see no correlation with things like PvP and invincibility and instead of thinking why it was done the way it's done, especailly when it's well known that pvp is going to be introduced soon, they simply start crying like children they are and threat devs with "shuting door" threads. disgusting. it's not always good idea to listen the mass.

 

and as everybody should know but tend to ignore, something good for single taken person overall can make situation worse for everyone of them as whole. like Prisoner's dilemma

 

in shot: invincibilty is good for you but it's game breaking in pvp. you don't want to fight somebody invincible, but you want to be invincible yourself. human logic. disgusting and egocentric. even worse now due iGen crap and consumership mindset. "i bought it, so i demand my fun" and my favourite reply from this large demographic of people "i don't care, thats not my problem"

 

disgusting.

Edited May 19, 2013 by n7snk

[TheOmegaFlux]

i think anyone that calls for a nerf in a PVE game is stupid

[Venarge]

i think anyone that calls for a nerf in a PVE game is stupid

The real stupidity is shown when people dont realise that even pve games need balance in order to give every weapon/item its value....

[Aerensiniac]

Im calling dibs on the fact that they will wait 2 months with nerfing Vauban too.

You know, just so you have time to spend money on it.

[MoonicusMaximus]

There was no situation in which Rhino's invulnerability to all damage was justified, especially for the price and the duration.

 

Balancing isn't the quickest way to lose players.

[vonDirk]

i apologise for rude expressions, but i felt completely overrun by people who can't see cause and effect, so had to use rather sharp kind of terms to explain whats going on, since some people see no correlation with things like PvP and invincibility and instead of thinking why it was done the way it's done, especailly when it's well known that pvp is going to be introduced soon, they simply start crying like children they are and threat devs with "shuting door" threads. disgusting. it's not always good idea to listen the mass.

 

and as everybody should know but tend to ignore, something good for single taken person overall can make situation worse for everyone of them as whole. like Prisoner's dilemma

 

in shot: invincibilty is good for you but it's game breaking in pvp. you don't want to fight somebody invincible, but you want to be invincible yourself. human logic. disgusting and egocentric. even worse now due iGen crap and consumership mindset. "i bought it, so i demand my fun" and my favourite reply from this large demographic of people "i don't care, thats not my problem"

 

disgusting.

Yeah, it COULD be true, exept of Trinities Link, which not gives her invincibility, but reflects damage and effects back. BTW, most of MMO have different rules for PvP and PvE, like "This Ability deals 50%/200% to other players" or "protects on 80% from other players' damage". It's more complicated, but it's reliable - and it's quite good for Rhino in common.

And yes, i think it's not fix, but nerf. So let's clear the things up, why.

Rhino have awesome abilities, really. But - he almost can't do any damage end-game. And don't talk about Radial Blast - i used it with +15% Focus on lvl 20 Leech Osprey - and it DIDN'T kill it. Leech Osprey with 100 max health. Okay, maybe i was wrong. I tried it once more. And the same result. So, is it bag or something - but it's not the damage i want to see from 75 energy costs ability.

Rhino Charge - great thing. On low-levels. But wait - ANYTHING is great on low-levels. But still - Rhino charge is awesome, because it gives Rhino some kind of mobility. And that's good thing, because Rhino is the slowest warframe from all. And it's REALLY SLOWEST - because alt. helmet decrease speed even more. So it's like turtle - without the shell.

Rhino Stomp - is really awesome and great ability, with great range and nice duration... well, it WAS, before Vauban came with Bastion. Same duration, same effect, maybe less range, but it's not big deal. It's not unique ultimate anymore. And besides of that - it is the ONLY ability WITHOUT DAMAGE. Yeah, other one is Trinity Blessing, but! Trinity blessing gives all team immunity for 2-3 seconds after cast,restore ALL shield and health to all members in any range.. Well, this sounds like Ultimate ability. Rhino Stomp - doesn't. It's quite good, but not Ultimate.

Finally, Iron Skin... Rhino's brightest ability, the only thing that keeps all other ability handy. Rhino is a tank. No, he is TANK. He is ONLY Warframe, that need higher mastery rank. It's like HEK's nerf, if you remember it. And yes, HEK was OP too much. But now it's quite good - this is fix.

So, about Iron Skin. Well, i agree, that it's seems OP too much, but how can Rhino use it? To revive his teammates in first place. Rhino is nothing without teammates - and any other warframe can easy go solo, because they can exterminate everything with only their abilities. Rhino - can't. Yeah, he can keep boss flying for 12 seconds (with maxed Continuity), 2-3 times (with maxed Flow). So what? How can it suppose to HELP Rhino kill the boss? Only with his guns?

Rhino was a tank before, but what's now? Even earlier Frost was better tank on Corpus/Greenir missions - and it's obvious. Same armor, same shields, same health, same speed (well, without Thrak Helmet). But Frost have his Helmet - +33% to Armor. Bams! He is more tough now! 30secs of Snow Globe - it's like complete invincibility against Coprus and Greenir, because they are shooting. So, twice more longer duration, Area of Effect, partial invincibility for WHOLE TEAM, while inside the Globe (and Frost can place MANY Globes), slow enemies (great even against Infested). So, Frost is a new Tank. Need lower Mastery Rank, with role of Mage/Tank, with creepy damage abilities - Avalanche is great like hell, stunning all enemies for few seconds (kinda like of Invincibility, because no one can attack, while they are frozen), Ice Wave - with range like Rhino Stomp (20m), great damage (like Rhino's Radial Blast, but costs less). So Rhino is almost useless now - because other frames are better in everything he can do. And that's - fact. Even Ember's shield protect her from Disruptors Attacks - and Iron Skin - doesn't. Yeah, maybe it's a bug - but WTH? I'm game developer by myself and we TEST such thing BEFORE any patches. Other thing - poison damage. Is poison damage deals somehow with PvP? Only thing, that can do Poison Damage - Mire, and Saryn's abilities. But Saryn's Molt is useless in PvP (like Loky's Decoy). So? Is it reason to nerf some invincibility of other frames? Yeah, Rhino CAN be invincible for 15 seconds (19 seconds with maxed Continuity), so what? You afraid that thing in PvP? Nah, you can just run away from Rhino, because he CAN'T catch you, if you aren't Frost (and even so, Frost can... well, Freeze him. 10 seconds duration for 25 energy).Trinity not only much more faster - she can heal and restore mana from Rhino while he is trying to kill her, with what? Radial Blast? Rhino Charge? So, let's think, how many energy can Rhino have and how quickly he spend them? Well... Even if he will spam only Iron Skin, with maxed Flow, he will get like 6 Iron Skins. 2 minutes. And after that - he will be completely vulnerable against any damage ability. But well, ok, we need to fix his COMPLETELY invincibility. But allow Focus to increase this value, like Ember's shield increased. Gives some GOOD improvements, like knockback resistance. Because I can't understand, WHY the SLOWEST and HEAVIEST warframe is flying away like butterfly when some thing twice smaller kicks the ground?

So, there need to be a reason to put Rhino in higher rank requirements, if he haven't any unique or really useful ability. Because after i tested it today - Excalibur can do better. Even nerfed Banshee can do better. Frost is out of comparison - he is much more cooler (in any cases ;) ) now. That's why people are arguing. It's not like "Bad developers, why you take out our toy?" It's "What da heck is going on? Why my "tank" warframe is kinda empty place now?" Rhino CAN take a lot of damage indeed. I've tested it on Infested defense on Pluto. It's quite good.. Till the wave 5. Then - i can't revive fallen enemies because i was thrown like a doll to the other side of the map with one punch from Ancient. Well, from 6 Ancients. How can i suppose to deal with them with 0 shield and 0 energy, while they have Ancient Healer on their side? Stomp is good options, yeah, but where i can get 100 energy, if there are 2 or 3 Disruptors, who constantly drain my shields (my poor Sentinel can't restore them so often even with maxed Guardian) and energy (and i can't get any of it after few seconds after hit - but still can put energy orbs, just to evaporate them to nothing)? Yeah, we have some support equipment like Shield Restore (+100 Shield, phew), or Heal (100 or 75 HP). It's a good, but Disruptor drain ALL my shields (like 900) and all my energy with ONE hit. Yeah, Ember have lower armor, but her shield DOES damage and protect from energy and shields drain. And if it was really fix - wait, why it came out NOW? If Rhino was there with the same ability from the Closed Beta, isn't Rhino's Iron Skin have bug for such long time? When everyone knew about it, it was described in Guide to Rhino, on YouTube - everywhere... So it's - a nerf. Like was HEK nerf before - but they fixed it. So, i hope, they will fix it too (with that rumor, that Rhino's Iron Skin is really buggy right now)

Edited May 19, 2013 by vonDirk

[Aerensiniac]

There was no situation in which Rhino's invulnerability to all damage was justified, especially for the price and the duration.

Balancing isn't the quickest way to lose players.

Thats your opinion and frankly, nobody cares.

Whether justified or not, it still trips on my mentioned 3 points.

 

As far as balancing rhino goes, please refer to thread: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/46710-rhino-vs-ember-durability-analysis/

Proven that even ember excels better at tanking than rhino does, so right now the tanking list is Trinity (healer for the lols) -> frost (aoe invulnerability) -> Ember (the glass cannon with the highest resistance tanking skill) -> Rhino the by description "heaviest" of all frames.

 

So even past the fact that this does not disprove anything that has been said in this topic, if you call this balancing then you are in the dire need of a dictionary cause you have no idea what the word means.

[Twistank]

I am very afraid that DE learned the good sides of doing the RELEASE/PROFIT/NERF cycle and now they just can't get enough of it. I have seen it in other games and I am beginning to see it here as well.

As long as they can balance the anger of community with increase of profit it will keep going. It is all about people pulling the strings at the head of the company.

[Aerensiniac]

Posting notice:

 

 

Rhino will be reviewed and changed.

[Aerensiniac]

Reminder grace bump

[Psicomax]

Two things Aki...

1. After the first large update in PlanetSide, people said the same. Then came the next patch, the next, the next and the next, till there was no longer any use for the servers and they had to be merged, just so people would find someone to shoot.

The result of these "very very few people leave over this" patches can be viewed on any graph revolving around player and server load measurement. The results vary between 70 and 80% player loss compared to day 1.

 

2. (And this is the actual point) None of the current ragery would have happened if the developers would have a BIT of common sense.

Such as for instance, not waiting 2 months before fixing a frame that is OBVIOUSLY overpowered, or do you care to explain it for us how to view banshee's case?

Well, accidentally we put a frame in the game that cleared 2 rooms straight on an ultimate. Shall we fix it? Naaaaah.

Lets wait till whatever percentage of the player base has farmed it, invested in it, or bought it via actual money. Once it has played out its usefulness, we will ram it to the ground.

 

See nerfing will always invoke negative feelings in people.

It just goes a bit worse, when you start an underhanded business model such as intentionally overpowering a frame so people would buy it, and then nerfing it to hell.

I dont know whether it was incapability, stupidity, or the exact opposite: dirty and logical thinking that has lead the devs to wait months before suddenly getting the idea, that the frames they have created might be a bit overpowered, but as the story goes: it doesnt matter and nobody gives a damn because people have already invested in these frames.

 

Next comes the excalibur nerf, the frost nerf, the trinity nerf, the saryn nerf, the volt nerf, the vauban nerf, and at the same time everything will be made even more harder to get. Yeah. I bet nobody will give a damn about it.

Lets see how much of a blood bath the forum will be turned into during the course of the next 1 month. Shall we?

 

+20000