De I Love You. I Want To Hear From You More.

[TraumaHunter]

I love you.  Even with this simply silly rhino mess.  (lol ember and trinity are the new tank classes I guess..)

I love you.  Even with the messy glaive launch - you made a topic that gave me hope and said you learned from it. THAT MADE ME SO HAPPY.  All is forgiven so long as you learned from it (even though it took me 5 alerts to finally get the glaive and by the time I got it I had no sense of satisfaction from getting it.  I didn't earn it.  I just "finally was lucky in real life" instead of "lucky in the game".)

I love you.  Even with this launch of a frame that I'm worried about his obtainment methods.  To be honest I would rather all of the new warframes be super rare RNG based on in game efforts instead of playing a "twitter minigame" and just "happening to get all the parts because I was lucky in real life".

I love you regardless of what you do that makes me worried because you have built up trust with me.  I support you and I believe in your vision for a better game!  You give me hope to an otherwise bleak internet interactivity with developers.  I put up with namco bandai patching Armored core as a USA xbox player... if that isn't patience and drowning in "Lack of patch" tears I don't know WHAT is.  (For those who don't know it means 6-7 patches behind the Japanese version with no communication in my native language as to when you can expect anything, if anything, to happen.  Months of waiting.  And struggling with a love hate relationship that transcends human understanding.)

BUT JUST BECAUSE I LOVE YOU
It Doesn't mean I don't get impatient and upset when things I love are tampered with.   You as devs have to put up with lots of un-constructive feedback - I get that.  I've done QA testing.  It's a scary world as a developer.  One that actually ATTEMPTS to talk to the playerbase is one that is handing them a bullhorn saying "speak louder and we might hear you too *winky face*".  I could point to basic human error and say the way Rebecca closed 5-6 rhino topics (If that was her... no way to know because there was no post that explained who or WHY the topics were being closed... please start doing that...) and then said 
 

EDIT: QUOTES WHY YOU NO WORK!?!?!

Quote

 "“Suggest? Hold on, let me check… oh. Nothing, actually, they just wanted to let us know that we ruined him and are doomed.”

 

For hours this continues, few posts emerge that provide constructive ideas, I savour those. More emerge on how this is the beginning of the end. Doom is nigh."

 

 

...was disheartening to say the least...

 

 

That was slightly unprofessional and made me feel that our opinions were devalued.  Sure there were some posts/topics that didn't have the best OP's.  But the arguments USUALLY carried nothing but concern for the game they love.  When people are passionate about what they are talking about - they get heated.  We all do.  They usually spawned some good VALID points of discussion even if it slightly derailed from time to time.

 

WHERE AM I GOING WITH THIS?

DE - I love you but you have to communicate with us more.

Remember the glaive?  You need to tell us before hand what your plans are if you don't want WWIII on the forums.

 

I suggest that you make a sticky topic that is CONSTANTLY UPDATED! (KEYWORDS) with a big list of things you plan on adding.  A "where we plan on going with the game" sort of topic.

 

NO ONE will hold you to certain deadlines unless you set them and even if you set them and miss them we will be ok with it - because at least you are making an effort to communicate.  But unless we know where you plan on going with the game - we don't know what to discuss and leave feedback for until its too late.

 

It doesn't have to be anything fancy.  Just something like:

 

Things we agree need balance. (And if applicable how we are THINKING about changing them - give us feedback)

XYZ

XYZ

XYZ

Things we want to incorporate into the near future

XYZ 

XYZ 

XYZ

Things we want to incorporate into the long run

XYZ

XYZ

XYZ

Things we are debating internally on/things we aren't sure about

XYZ

XYZ

XYZ

 

Etc.  Nothing fancy. You don't need to make any promises.  Just give us direction for our feedback.  Let us know beforehand what we can expect in the future so we can talk about it and give our input before its "too late".

 

WHY?

FAR TOO OFTEN is it that a very vocal minority gets into one topic and claims "XYZ is OP and needs a nerf." or "XYZ should be balanced in some way" - the vocal minority goes unchallenged (because the topic goes unnoticed in the less trafficked areas of the forums or because the topic title doesn't appear to interest them or is completely vague/misleading.) And with all of this comes the misconception this is something that the gamers want.  This is something they are clamoring for.

I'm sure there was a few topics that thought "Rhino is OP" And a VAST majority of the posters overlooked the topic completely.  I never knew he was considered OP by anyone.  I never knew anything about these opinions until BAM guess what - Trinity and Ember are the new tanks in town.  If you had TOLD people that you were planning on these changes.   HELL if you as developers were the SOLE feedback for this change and you had informed us "this is what we think, lets discuss this as a group as to what we think it would mean for the balance of the game" 

I can promise you that you would have been given nothing but the most constructive, well organized, thought out feedback. And a change that the community and you could agree on would certainly have been reached.

 

DE.  We are a giant think tank.  You give us a topic to reflect on and we will come up with some darn amazing ideas/compromises/feedback.  BUT YOU NEED TO GIVE US A TOPIC TO REFLECT ON.

 

The amount of tears saying "I just bought xyz with platinum and then you nerfed it THANKS ALOT!! @#*(&$@" will be diminished.  I'm sure that alone would be worth its weight in gold to you all.

When you nerf Vauban's powers in some capacity (I can see it coming from a MILE away - but some poor soul out there won't.) so many tears will be shed.

 

And if this is too much of a commitment for you to make.

( I don't think it is...But in case it is...) At the very least.

 

Tell us when you read something and if you have input/feedback to give on it.

 

A topic with 150 upvotes and not one dev response is a befuddling concept to me.  You obviously see it (Or maybe you don't ...?).  It's not hard to tell us "your input is duly noted." - Even if you can't add any input or give any insight to what you think about the topic.  Just a way to tell us "We saw your topic" would be great.  This means we don't have to bring up the same topic once a week and turn it into a 10 page monster until the topic dies and we create a new one.

 

Talk to us DE.  Whisper sweet nothings in our ears.

Edited May 19, 2013 by TraumaHunter

[Law_Abiding_Engineer]

I love you.  Even with this simply silly rhino mess.  (lol ember and trinity are the new tank classes I guess..)

I love you.  Even with the messy glaive launch - you made a topic that gave me hope and said you learned from it. THAT MADE ME SO HAPPY.  All is forgiven so long as you learned from it (even though it took me 5 alerts to finally get the glaive and by the time I got it I had no sense of satisfaction from getting it.  I didn't earn it.  I just "finally was lucky in real life" instead of "lucky in the game".)

I love you.  Even with this launch of a frame that I'm worried about his obtainment methods.  To be honest I would rather all of the new warframes be super rare RNG based on in game efforts instead of playing a "twitter minigame" and just "happening to get all the parts because I was lucky in real life".

I love you regardless of what you do that makes me worried because you have built up trust with me.  I support you and I believe in your vision for a better game!  You give me hope to an otherwise bleak internet interactivity with developers.  I put up with namco bandai patching Armored core as a USA xbox player... if that isn't patience and drowning in "Lack of patch" tears I don't know WHAT is.  (For those who don't know it means 6-7 patches behind the Japanese version with no communication in my native language as to when you can expect anything, if anything, to happen.  Months of waiting.  And struggling with a love hate relationship that transcends human understanding.)

BUT JUST BECAUSE I LOVE YOU

It Doesn't mean I don't get impatient and upset when things I love are tampered with.   You as devs have to put up with lots of un-constructive feedback - I get that.  I've done QA testing.  It's a scary world as a developer.  One that actually ATTEMPTS to talk to the playerbase is one that is handing them a bullhorn saying "speak louder and we might hear you too *winky face*".  I could point to basic human error and say the way Rebecca closed 5-6 rhino topics (If that was her... no way to know because there was no post that explained who/WHY the topics were being closed... please start doing that...) and then said 

 

 

 

So, you're trying to tell me that Frost (who has the second highest Armor rating) is not the next-in-line for being a tank?

[Worira]

A) +Yes

b) Your formatting's gone wonky.

[TraumaHunter]

A) +Yes

b) Your formatting's gone wonky.

I know - it was annoying me - I know how bbc code works - its not working properly Dx

EDIT: judging by the fact that the two posts above me are both blank + an html link to an image makes me think BBC for this topic is borked in general.

Edited May 19, 2013 by TraumaHunter

[Jumba255]

I totally feel you guy.

Yes they really do need to communicate more even if its just the Design Counsel ( which really isnt anything good its just a sneak peak the day before it is realease, it being whatever they decide to put out, and the polls are few and far between)

[TraumaHunter]

I totally feel you guy.

Yes they really do need to communicate more even if its just the Design Counsel ( which really isnt anything good its just a sneak peak the day before it is realease, it being whatever they decide to put out, and the polls are few and far between)

Even as someone who is NOT on the design counsel I would feel better knowing at least a small sample of the players could tell them beforehand.

"WAIT WAIT WAIT - You plan on nerfing the Gorgon and the Hek/Shotguns?  Lets talk more about how this will happen.  Let us give you some insight onto what the players think."

"WAIT WAIT WAIT - You want to change rhinos Iron Skin because you think it's overpowered?  Let's talk why you think it's overpowered.  Let's talk about how you should nerf it based on what you think is overpowered about it.  - OH, You think because you can infinitely chain invincibility it's too strong?  Well maybe the solution is to increase the cost/ decrease duration to prevent using it all of the time.  Right now it is rhino's strongest identifying power we can't nerf the damage reduction to 80%.  That isn't balanced unless you bring ember/trinity in line with him as a tank.  OR MAYBE we no longer think of Rhino as a tank and we can buff some of his other 'lack luster' abilities in order to make up for the iron skin nerf and turn his abilities into more aggro based."

[WhiteCr0w]

I can totally understand where you're coming from, and I myself wouldn't say no to to a posted list of sorts with communications on agreeances and future changes, but I'm not sure how possible that would be. I feel like that's part of the reason they do the Livestreams, only it is rather difficult to fit so much into an hour. I think that's their way of taking a break for a while and addressing the community.

 

Also worth mentioning is their creative process. We really only have an inkling of information on what that's like, so I'm not sure how possible it would be for them to commit to some kind of future projection on so many issues that crop up in the community. Speaking of that .. Community. It's like managing the players are like a meta-game for them haha.

[Ninjaman999]

What I don't get is why doesn't DE poll changes for when they are gona balance powers and see who agree more with what changes? They could have 3 different sets of changes and have a democratic decision made in the forums and maybe in the game as well with a side bar notification that players with the Frame are needed for the decision (Since if they have the frame, we can assume they have played it and know how it feels)

[Infrared]

That's right, completely agreed. I know it's hard to reply the bunch of topics we have every day, but a simple ''We're working on it/discussing with the team'' or a short ''Yes'' or ''No'' in some doubts we talk about here would be greatly enough and appreciated. I also love DE and this game, and I feel so far away from devs ;/

[WhiteCr0w]

What I don't get is why doesn't DE poll changes for when they are gona balance powers and see who agree more with what changes? They could have 3 different sets of changes and have a democratic decision made in the forums and maybe in the game as well with a side bar notification that players with the Frame are needed for the decision (Since if they have the frame, we can assume they have played it and know how it feels)

 

Much to our dismay or not, it's probably easier to introduce changes and let them brew for a little while then take a look at them. It isn't very feasible to hold off progress on something while waiting around for a poll to finish. Besides, this is their baby, a decade in the making, and only they know what future content is coming down the pipeline, so I don't doubt their vision very much when it comes to balance.

[TraumaHunter]

I can totally understand where you're coming from, and I myself wouldn't say no to to a posted list of sorts with communications on agreeances and future changes, but I'm not sure how possible that would be. I feel like that's part of the reason they do the Livestreams, only it is rather difficult to fit so much into an hour. I think that's their way of taking a break for a while and addressing the community.

 

Also worth mentioning is their creative process. We really only have an inkling of information on what that's like, so I'm not sure how possible it would be for them to commit to some kind of future projection on so many issues that crop up in the community. Speaking of that .. Community. It's like managing the players are like a meta-game for them haha.

And thats the thing - I love the livestreams - I think they are a GREAT way to reach out and tell us what is going on...but they only happen every 2 weeks. (Understandably! it's a lot of organizing and effort to do such a thing! Hats off to DE!)  Sometimes they do very focused livestreams though.  This means we could go 4 weeks before hearing about something that has been something they have been thinking about for months. There are some things I'm CERTAIN they think about all the time - they just don't know what to do/where to go with it.  Things like:

What do we plan on doing with the burston?  

What about ash's level 1 ability when throwing knives are released?

Is it REALLY not butter?

Do you see topics about these things?  No.  Will these topics exist in the future when they make changes to them?  Almost certainly (in SOME capacity).

I am not suggesting they spoil all the surprises.

I am not suggesting they tell us everything on their mind.  I'm DEFINITELY not saying they should tell us all of their crazy awesome ideas.

But to at the very least give us some insight into how THEY feel about the game.  What THEY consider overpowered.  (apparently rhino)

And maybe if they feel like it - tell us what they are thinking beforehand and we can give them input.

At the end of the day - it is STILL their ball and it is always in THEIR court.  They can do whatever they want with it.  But if they want to stop seeing war break out on the forums.  I think that a tiny bit of communication would go MILES.

EDIT: I need to stop putting things in ALL CAPS in order to emphasize them lol.

Edited May 19, 2013 by TraumaHunter

[Quetzhal]

+1. Good feedback, good suggestions, would prevent a lot of the community backlash.

[Thor]

This is the sort of feedback thread that I actually enjoy reading. Thank you, TraumaHunter.

[JerryMouse13]

EDIT: I need to stop putting things in ALL CAPS in order to emphasize them lol.

 

THE POWER OF THE CAPS GODS COMPELS YOU.

 

Or you can be bold, and bold your words for added emphasis, what ever works you know

 

 

 ; P

 

 

P.S.

I very much agree, more communication before the fact would go a long way towards reducing the bloodshed and rage that the forums tends to devolve into every time we get blind sided by a major change.

Edited May 19, 2013 by JerryMouse13

[W4RM4CHIN3]

i'll speak from DE's behalf. ummmm i think i need some space, its not you its me >.>

[thedrag0n22]

i'll speak from DE's behalf. ummmm i think i need some space, its not you its me >.>

[goozilla]

Just a question: does the design counsel even has a say in anything DE forks out? Then what's the point of going Master/Grandmaster? Just to have your voices ignored after you gave them your money to have a voice in their affairs?

[Quetzhal]

I believe they have a say in the mods, weapons, warframes, etc that are chosen next for release.

[CamoPsycho]

Absolutly agree and as DE rebecca is the PR and has her own little section of the forums just for that(https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/forum/79-community-hot-topics/). Id say use it more.

[PeacefulBob]

I couldn't have put in better words, literally.

[Strudelhouse]

That was slightly unprofessional and made me feel that our opinions were devalued.

 

Respect where earned. You've got to give it to get it.

[DivineBovine]

Fully support <3

[Braken]

Just a question: does the design counsel even has a say in anything DE forks out? Then what's the point of going Master/Grandmaster? Just to have your voices ignored after you gave them your money to have a voice in their affairs?

 

To be honest? No, not really.

 

We did get a poll for choosing 3 different mods to be put in the game... but that's it so far. And we haven't gotten feedback on when they'll be implimented yet, even though we know what they are (Though not the specifics).

 

Other than that, we just get some small previews of upcoming things.

[JerryMouse13]

Respect where earned. You've got to give it to get it.

 

A professional is always expected to maintain a higher standard.

 

Was there truth in it? Yes.

 

Was it unprofessional? Again, yes.

[Braken]

 

I love you.  Even with this simply silly rhino mess.  (lol ember and trinity are the new tank classes I guess..)

I love you.  Even with the messy glaive launch - you made a topic that gave me hope and said you learned from it. THAT MADE ME SO HAPPY.  All is forgiven so long as you learned from it (even though it took me 5 alerts to finally get the glaive and by the time I got it I had no sense of satisfaction from getting it.  I didn't earn it.  I just "finally was lucky in real life" instead of "lucky in the game".)

I love you.  Even with this launch of a frame that I'm worried about his obtainment methods.  To be honest I would rather all of the new warframes be super rare RNG based on in game efforts instead of playing a "twitter minigame" and just "happening to get all the parts because I was lucky in real life".

I love you regardless of what you do that makes me worried because you have built up trust with me.  I support you and I believe in your vision for a better game!  You give me hope to an otherwise bleak internet interactivity with developers.  I put up with namco bandai patching Armored core as a USA xbox player... if that isn't patience and drowning in "Lack of patch" tears I don't know WHAT is.  (For those who don't know it means 6-7 patches behind the Japanese version with no communication in my native language as to when you can expect anything, if anything, to happen.  Months of waiting.  And struggling with a love hate relationship that transcends human understanding.)

BUT JUST BECAUSE I LOVE YOU

It Doesn't mean I don't get impatient and upset when things I love are tampered with.   You as devs have to put up with lots of un-constructive feedback - I get that.  I've done QA testing.  It's a scary world as a developer.  One that actually ATTEMPTS to talk to the playerbase is one that is handing them a bullhorn saying "speak louder and we might hear you too *winky face*".  I could point to basic human error and say the way Rebecca closed 5-6 rhino topics (If that was her... no way to know because there was no post that explained who or WHY the topics were being closed... please start doing that...) and then said 

 

EDIT: QUOTES WHY YOU NO WORK!?!?!

Quote

 "“Suggest? Hold on, let me check… oh. Nothing, actually, they just wanted to let us know that we ruined him and are doomed.”

 

For hours this continues, few posts emerge that provide constructive ideas, I savour those. More emerge on how this is the beginning of the end. Doom is nigh."

 

 

...was disheartening to say the least...

 

 

That was slightly unprofessional and made me feel that our opinions were devalued.  Sure there were some posts/topics that didn't have the best OP's.  But the arguments USUALLY carried nothing but concern for the game they love.  When people are passionate about what they are talking about - they get heated.  We all do.  They usually spawned some good VALID points of discussion even if it slightly derailed from time to time.

 

WHERE AM I GOING WITH THIS?

DE - I love you but you have to communicate with us more.

Remember the glaive?  You need to tell us before hand what your plans are if you don't want WWIII on the forums.

 

I suggest that you make a sticky topic that is CONSTANTLY UPDATED! (KEYWORDS) with a big list of things you plan on adding.  A "where we plan on going with the game" sort of topic.

 

NO ONE will hold you to certain deadlines unless you set them and even if you set them and miss them we will be ok with it - because at least you are making an effort to communicate.  But unless we know where you plan on going with the game - we don't know what to discuss and leave feedback for until its too late.

 

It doesn't have to be anything fancy.  Just something like:

 

Things we agree need balance. (And if applicable how we are THINKING about changing them - give us feedback)

XYZ

XYZ

XYZ

Things we want to incorporate into the near future

XYZ 

XYZ 

XYZ

Things we want to incorporate into the long run

XYZ

XYZ

XYZ

Things we are debating internally on/things we aren't sure about

XYZ

XYZ

XYZ

 

Etc.  Nothing fancy. You don't need to make any promises.  Just give us direction for our feedback.  Let us know beforehand what we can expect in the future so we can talk about it and give our input before its "too late".

 

WHY?

FAR TOO OFTEN is it that a very vocal minority gets into one topic and claims "XYZ is OP and needs a nerf." or "XYZ should be balanced in some way" - the vocal minority goes unchallenged (because the topic goes unnoticed in the less trafficked areas of the forums or because the topic title doesn't appear to interest them or is completely vague/misleading.) And with all of this comes the misconception this is something that the gamers want.  This is something they are clamoring for.

I'm sure there was a few topics that thought "Rhino is OP" And a VAST majority of the posters overlooked the topic completely.  I never knew he was considered OP by anyone.  I never knew anything about these opinions until BAM guess what - Trinity and Ember are the new tanks in town.  If you had TOLD people that you were planning on these changes.   HELL if you as developers were the SOLE feedback for this change and you had informed us "this is what we think, lets discuss this as a group as to what we think it would mean for the balance of the game" 

I can promise you that you would have been given nothing but the most constructive, well organized, thought out feedback. And a change that the community and you could agree on would certainly have been reached.

 

DE.  We are a giant think tank.  You give us a topic to reflect on and we will come up with some darn amazing ideas/compromises/feedback.  BUT YOU NEED TO GIVE US A TOPIC TO REFLECT ON.

 

The amount of tears saying "I just bought xyz with platinum and then you nerfed it THANKS ALOT!! @#*(&$@" will be diminished.  I'm sure that alone would be worth its weight in gold to you all.

When you nerf Vauban's powers in some capacity (I can see it coming from a MILE away - but some poor soul out there won't.) so many tears will be shed.

 

And if this is too much of a commitment for you to make.

( I don't think it is...But in case it is...) At the very least.

 

Tell us when you read something and if you have input/feedback to give on it.

 

A topic with 150 upvotes and not one dev response is a befuddling concept to me.  You obviously see it (Or maybe you don't ...?).  It's not hard to tell us "your input is duly noted." - Even if you can't add any input or give any insight to what you think about the topic.  Just a way to tell us "We saw your topic" would be great.  This means we don't have to bring up the same topic once a week and turn it into a 10 page monster until the topic dies and we create a new one.

 

Talk to us DE.  Whisper sweet nothings in our ears.

 

 

I can't upvote this enough.

 

You're one of the major voices of reason on these forums, TraumaHunter, and I can't agree with you enough.

 

If they would do something like you suggested, it would make things so much better, not only for us players, but also for DE themselves.