Trial Of Trials

[Guest]

So last night, my clan decided to run the trial. 

 

No one looked up the requirements, tips, hints or tricks.  We saw that it had level 70-80 Grineer, so we suited up for what we thought would work best and took the dive.

 

These are the 'frames that we took -

 

1: Banshee

2: Nyx

3: Excal

4: Nova

5: Saryn

6: Mesa

7: Trinity

8: empty

 

After an hour of hilarity, we felt we had to give up.  There was no clear instruction as to what we should be doing;

 

"Hey, a battery!"

"Run way from it!"

"Pick it up."

"Why'd it explode?"

"Why is it arming?"  etc.

 

If there were better instruction in the cut-scene, we missed it due to someone being impatient and skipping it for the whole team.

 

My suggestion would be to have the Lotus pop up at key points and explain what we're supposed be doing with this battery, the toxin injectors, the hackable consoles and explain why we had a health proc that killed a couple players.

 

 

[FelisImpurrator]

DID YOU REALLY THINK

 

IT WOULD BE

 

THIS EASY?

 

(Okay, seriously, that IS a problem with the raids. And with several bosses. And with much of the game, really. Tutorial exists, codex exists, but there's no real integration of 'this is what you do next' in the actual missions.)

 

Just got back from a horrible raid that barely scraped by, too, after one and a half failed attempts. Every time it was one person in the team providing 90% of the screwup... but clearly, even WITH proper communication that isn't quite enough to get to the end.

 

(Tip: Most of the challenge in these things, besides CC/actually killing Hek and the first hurdle of figuring out what the hell to do, is hacking terminals. Should be renamed the Trials of Vay Hack.)

Edited June 1, 2015 by FelisImpurrator

[MagPrime]

DID YOU REALLY THINK

 

IT WOULD BE

 

THIS EASY?

 

(Okay, seriously, that IS a problem with the raids. And with several bosses. And with much of the game, really. Tutorial exists, codex exists, but there's no real integration of 'this is what you do next' in the actual missions.)

 

Just got back from a horrible raid that barely scraped by, too, after one and a half failed attempts. Every time it was one person in the team providing 90% of the screwup... but clearly, even WITH proper communication that isn't quite enough to get to the end.

Right?

 

All 7 of us were on curse talking - no miscommunication going on.  The biggest issue was simply no in mission explanation of what was going on and what was expected.

 

EDIT:

I'm a derp.

Edited June 1, 2015 by Noamuth

[FelisImpurrator]

Right?

 

All 7 of us were on curse talking - no lack of miscommunication going on.  The biggest issue was simply no in mission explanation of what was going on and what was expected.

At least you had that! If you had all read up I'm fairly sure it would have gone flawlessly. (Also, I think you meant lack of communication.)

 

My experience has involved a lot of "one person goes Leeroy Jenkins and wrecks the ENTIRE THING, repeatedly".

 

Although - this should arguably be a thread that isn't so much about the raid as it is about the lack of tutorial integration. Lotus' radio transmissions are Captain Obvious at best and blatantly useless at worst, when they should be actual guides to the mission. Like, say, the Jackal fight - I had to be guided through that when I was new because there was literally no indication that you had to aim for limbs instead of center of mass.

[rechot]

The point is no instructions. Thats what makes it a challenge. Kinda like destinys raid

Edited June 1, 2015 by rechot

[FelisImpurrator]

The point is no instructions. Thats what makes it a challenge. Kinda like destinys raid

It's not great game design, though. The way it works in Warframe now, it feels less like a deliberate choice than an oversight - you spawn into an ice level, five minutes later Lotus tells you there's ice all over the ship. You fight Jackal for the first time, Lotus tells you it's dangerous, but not that you shouldn't bother aiming for the head.

 

There's "puzzle boss" - think Zelda, where the bosses have predictable patterns but you do have some clear indicator of how to progress most/all of the time - and then there's just being too opaque. "Showing and not telling" only works when there's enough showing going on.

 

This ain't Dwarf Fortress. The "learn by losing horribly enough times without any direction" model does not work particularly well here, not in this format and not in this execution.

[Kasumi-]

The point is no instructions. Thats what makes it a challenge. Kinda like destinys raid

At least in the Vault of Glass you have on objective listed...

[FelisImpurrator]

At least in the Vault of Glass you have on objective listed...

Vault of Glass?

 

I knew the problem here was a lack of transparency.

 

(Woo. Post #404. Guess this one won't be found.)

[MagPrime]

At least you had that! If you had all read up I'm fairly sure it would have gone flawlessly. (Also, I think you meant lack of communication.)

 

My experience has involved a lot of "one person goes Leeroy Jenkins and wrecks the ENTIRE THING, repeatedly".

 

Although - this should arguably be a thread that isn't so much about the raid as it is about the lack of tutorial integration. Lotus' radio transmissions are Captain Obvious at best and blatantly useless at worst, when they should be actual guides to the mission. Like, say, the Jackal fight - I had to be guided through that when I was new because there was literally no indication that you had to aim for limbs instead of center of mass.

 

It was my intent to have it be about the lack of information about this mission type rather than the quality of the trial.  Although those two things would go hand in hand.

 

Read a guide to understand , I personally play with a certain raid group , we have no voice chat but we complete raids flawlessly (sometimes we mess up but never failed).

 

But I agree warframe itself doesn't do a good job teaching anything in fact , when I was a noob I active all the life support capsules because there was a marker on them so I assume we active them. I guess DE is just letting us do the learning.

 

My point is that we shouldn't have to go to outside sources to learn how to do something.

 

Don't get me wrong, I have gone to youtube, wiki and obviously the forums, but I shouldn't have to do those things in order to get the basic grasp of "endgame" content.  

 

I'm not wanting it on a silver platter and have someone hold my hand through it but some kind of clue as to what we're supposed to do once we have the battery, or that we're even supposed to get it in the first place, would be beneficial for the game.

 

And Hek saying stuff like "Don't let them get near the injectors" doesn't really help.  We got near them, we got all up in their business, still had no idea what was supposed to happen next.

 

The point is no instructions. Thats what makes it a challenge. Kinda like destinys raid

Uh, no.  No instructions leads to team wipes and rage quitting.  That's a bad design for a trial, mission or even game.

[notlamprey]

My point is that we shouldn't have to go to outside sources to learn how to do something.

 

Agreed. It's nice to see the community pooling its resources and helping everyone figure out the content, but we shouldn't have to do that before anyone can have even a rough idea what the content is about. This has been a problem with Warframe since the very beginning, and to see that basic affordance still appears to be a low priority is... disappointing.

 

Maybe I'm talking out my back alley, but is it really asking too much to have small onscreen cues teaching us about the mission objectives?

 

And Hek saying stuff like "Don't let them get near the injectors" doesn't really help.  We got near them, we got all up in their business, still had no idea what was supposed to happen next.

 

Uh, no.  No instructions leads to team wipes and rage quitting.  That's a bad design for a trial, mission or even game.

 

This, too. DE has at least figured out how to deliver "rough" objective information by way of dialogue, and that's genuinely great. Now, they need to nail down the "fine" half.

 

My suggestion: Take the Augmented Reality HUD elements from Crysis, and just doctor them a bit. We aren't Nomad or Alcatraz or Iron Man - I get that. Just repackage that exact mechanic with a Lotus label, say that the Lotus is feeding us telemetry and all that stuff, and you're done.

[HibikiGanaha]

Sounds like you didn't even make it past the first part.  The raid is very well designed. 

 

The battery dispenser is placed in the center of the room.  You really shouldn't have failed charging a battery more then twice.  Once for not having enough energy and letting it drop and another time for running around after it was charged.

 

There are four long hallways on the map, it is pretty obvious that you need to head down one of those four to do something.  Once you reach the end of one of the four long hallways you will see at least 1 console in plain sight and a glowing toxin injector.

 

The lotus tells you the radiation is cutting off your communications in the beginning.  Hek even taunts you that you are helpless without the lotus.  The raid doesn't need any changes at all.  How do you think the first group finished it?  They didn't have a wiki to help them and they still completed it.

[MagPrime]

Sounds like you didn't even make it past the first part.  The raid is very well designed. 

 

The battery dispenser is placed in the center of the room.  You really shouldn't have failed charging a battery more then twice.  Once for not having enough energy and letting it drop and another time for running around after it was charged.

 

There are four long hallways on the map, it is pretty obvious that you need to head down one of those four to do something.  Once you reach the end of one of the four long hallways you will see at least 1 console in plain sight and a glowing toxin injector.

 

The lotus tells you the radiation is cutting off your communications in the beginning.  Hek even taunts you that you are helpless without the lotus.  The raid doesn't need any changes at all.  How do you think the first group finished it?  They didn't have a wiki to help them and they still completed it.

I imagine the first team were all experienced players who also had the chance to watch the entire cutscene.  Please refer to the original post where I said that one of the teammates may have gotten impatient and skipped it.

 

My team was comprised of  new players, no one had played longer than a month.  And the point of this was that the instructions were vague and not well designed for casual players.

[FelisImpurrator]

I imagine the first team were all experienced players who also had the chance to watch the entire cutscene.  Please refer to the original post where I said that one of the teammates may have gotten impatient and skipped it.

 

My team was comprised of  new players, no one had played longer than a month.  And the point of this was that the instructions were vague and not well designed for casual players.

In before the "RAID NOT FOR FILTHY CASUALS, GIT GUD NOOBS" elitists I fully expect will show up, because this is the Warframe forum.

 

Honestly, going through it the first time, I don't think I ever saw any real indication of where to get started or where to go from there. Even the most complex puzzle game tends to have actual instructions. Things like this aren't so much a puzzle as simply directionless and confusing; the first group probably had to brute-force trial and error the thing from start to finish.

[HibikiGanaha]

I imagine the first team were all experienced players who also had the chance to watch the entire cutscene.  Please refer to the original post where I said that one of the teammates may have gotten impatient and skipped it.

 

My team was comprised of  new players, no one had played longer than a month.  And the point of this was that the instructions were vague and not well designed for casual players.

There aren't any cutscenes in the entire raid except for the boss intro in part 3. 

 

Do you really believe that DE would make an important cutscene skippable?

 

It really does not matter if the team is comprised of new players.  Do you think the first group's frames helped them figure out what to do?  They used their brains to figure out what needed to be done.

 

In before the "RAID NOT FOR FILTHY CASUALS, GIT GUD NOOBS" elitists I fully expect will show up, because this is the Warframe forum.

 

Honestly, going through it the first time, I don't think I ever saw any real indication of where to get started or where to go from there. Even the most complex puzzle game tends to have actual instructions. Things like this aren't so much a puzzle as simply directionless and confusing; the first group probably had to brute-force trial and error the thing from start to finish.

I already mentioned how DE designed the raid so it teaches you what to do.

 

"brute-force trial and error" aka using your brain and learning from mistakes.  Everybody can do that.

[MagPrime]

There aren't any cutscenes in the entire raid except for the boss intro in part 3. 

 

Do you really believe that DE would make an important cutscene skippable?

 

It really does not matter if the team is comprised of new players.  Do you think the first group's frames helped them figure out what to do?  They used their brains to figure out what needed to be done.

 

I already mentioned how DE designed the raid so it teaches you what to do.

 

"brute-force trial and error" aka using your brain and learning from mistakes.  Everybody can do that.

Have you been playing Warframe at all? Of course DE would make an important cut scene slippable - otherwise they'd have all the players that run it constantly raising hell about being forced to sit through the same scene constantly.

And having clear instructions is good for the casual and new players, not everyone has an interest in mental gymnastics, not everyone finds that fun and challenging.

Let the player chose the level of difficulty, highest would you you're on a new tileset and no one talks to you and you have a dozen hackable terminals. Have fun. Lowest would be Lotus telling us what we need to do.

Right now, that trial doesn't give enough information and it kinda sucks.

[FelisImpurrator]

It really does not matter if the team is comprised of new players.  Do you think the first group's frames helped them figure out what to do?  They used their brains to figure out what needed to be done.

 

I already mentioned how DE designed the raid so it teaches you what to do.

 

"brute-force trial and error" aka using your brain and learning from mistakes.  Everybody can do that.

The first group probably died horribly several times over and built their strategy on a mountain of their own metaphorical corpses, because that's how these things go when they're structured like this.

 

This isn't Dwarf Fortress... even it it has "warf" in the name. It's not a roguelike, either. So it shouldn't arbitrarily have the difficulty curve of one. (And even if it did, it would have more instructions than this; as mentioned, even other "missions that don't tell you what to do" at least have listed objectives, like, say, "destroy the Toxin Injectors".)

[Gravefire]

Personally, I liked the way the raid makes you figure it out. If you don't have the time and patience to, "deal" with it then that's your decision. Everyone learns and acts differently towards raiding, if you're one of the groups that just jumps right into and doesn't understand, and gets frustrated after a few wipes maybe let the people who test/figure out the stuff first then see what they did.

[FelisImpurrator]

Personally, I liked the way the raid makes you figure it out. If you don't have the time and patience to, "deal" with it then that's your decision. Everyone learns and acts differently towards raiding, if you're one of the groups that just jumps right into and doesn't understand, and gets frustrated after a few wipes maybe let the people who test/figure out the stuff first then see what they did.

See, that would make sense if there were actually any wiggle room. I read up on it... mainly because the lack of even the most basic form of direction beyond "kill Vay Hek" all but ensures that pretty much 90-95% of the community straight up doesn't care about "figuring it out". Either you've done it before, you've read about it before, or you get kicked out. OP group obviously wanted to puzzle it out for themselves, unlike the usual "efficiency uber alles" crowd you get. That isn't the issue here.

 

It's not about the basic idea of "you have to find out for yourself". It's about the way the game fails to create an atmosphere that encourages pressing on and learning about the content. In a roguelike, it works because the interface is a lot simpler; you move in eight directions and whack monsters until they die or you die, and then figure it out from there. In Dwarf Fortress, well... er, it's Dwarf Fortress and it's already designed to cater to people who love micromanagement, incredibly complex simulation, and hilariously cruel RNG. But hell - "losing is fun" simply because the act of losing there actually does manage to be significantly entertaining. In those games it gives you a better idea of how exactly you screwed up and how not to in the future.

[MagPrime]

Personally, I liked the way the raid makes you figure it out. If you don't have the time and patience to, "deal" with it then that's your decision. Everyone learns and acts differently towards raiding, if you're one of the groups that just jumps right into and doesn't understand, and gets frustrated after a few wipes maybe let the people who test/figure out the stuff first then see what they did.

So I should just deal with that fact that no one in my group was "smart enough" to figure it out and never run the raid again.

 

Great advice.

 

You realize that not providing enough information on the basic requirements of the raid is preventing more people from enjoying it and keeping them from obtaining arcane attachments?  The point of this feedback thread is to let DE know that they need to give more information instead of just expecting us to go to outside sources to learn how to run it or just "deal" with being locked out of content.

[RainDH]

Right now there's a Juggernaut on the loose in the game... Not very hard, not a raid enemy at all, but DAMN how many times I would die there or how much time I would spend on the mission, if I hadn't already know the way most of the bosses are done in WarFrame right now? I've simply taken a hysterical Valkyr to look closer on Phorid #2 without threat of being killed instantly. And actually I don't like how the game trains me to think.

For me, I don't want to play raid, because now it's not much of a teamwork and thinking and taking quick decisions on a field, but mostly of a "executing a list of things and actions already written by someone else".

It's great that there are missions and trials, which force players to use their brains instead of rough power, but I guess it should be done a bit another way, than unending tries and oneshot deaths.

[Ceryk]

Personally, the Trial looks boring as hell. CC and Run is not my idea of fun. I'm supposed to be some sort of bad ! space warrior, but you don't want me to fight? I want to wade through seas of enemies. Not sit there with a check list and say "Okay, do we have 2 Novas, 2 Frosts, a least one Trinity and 2 Valkyrs/Limbos? And everyone knows what they're doing? Okay, we've already won. Let's start the mission"

 

Designing an event that is strictly a CC and Run event and pretty much actively discourages you from doing anything other than that is a damn shame in a game about super powered space warriors and I hope they do a better job on the next one in terms of making it so more than one play style that basically revolves around a very prescribed group setup is accommodated.

 

 

Right now there's a Juggernaut on the loose in the game... Not very hard, not a raid enemy at all, but DAMN how many times I would die there or how much time I would spend on the mission, if I hadn't already know the way most of the bosses are done in WarFrame right now? I've simply taken a hysterical Valkyr to look closer on Phorid #2 without threat of being killed instantly. And actually I don't like how the game trains me to think.

For me, I don't want to play raid, because now it's not much of a teamwork and thinking and taking quick decisions on a field, but mostly of a "executing a list of things and actions already written by someone else".

It's great that there are missions and trials, which force players to use their brains instead of rough power, but I guess it should be done a bit another way, than unending tries and oneshot deaths.

 

This is why I don't play it. You're playing a Required Frame Checklist. And that's not fun. If I had to fight my way through the raid to accomplish my goals and it didn't matter what frame you brought as long as everyone knew how to play their frame decently, I'd have been excited as F***. But it's not that way at all. Thankfully the rewards aren't game changing and most just aren't even worth bothering with, so there's no reason to force yourself to do it.

Edited June 6, 2015 by Ceryk

[Gravefire]

So I should just deal with that fact that no one in my group was "smart enough" to figure it out and never run the raid again.

 

Great advice.

 

  The point of this feedback thread is to let DE know that they need to give more information instead of just expecting us to go to outside sources to learn how to run it or just "deal" with being locked out of content.

I like how you put words in my mouth there. I never said anyone in your group wasn't smart enough. All I said was, "If you don't have the time and patience to, "deal" with it then that's your decision". Also, I thought the whole "Standing on buttons" was a dead give away for what the rest of the raid was going to be.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 keeping them from obtaining arcane attachments? 

I'm sorry did they removing AA from trading ? cause if so I must of missed it from the hotfix notes.

 

Now my question to you is, "Do you realize" how many games and company's don't put the information on things that are consider raids compared to how many do ? If you do be my guess and share that information with everyone here.

 

 

 

 

If what you were suggesting threw earlier post by having "unlock tiers" where each week it unlocked a portion of the "raid help" to help new players understand. For instance;

 

During launch week:

Week 1: Nothing doesn't tell you anything about the raid

 

Week 2: Stage 1 tells you what to do

 

Week 3:  Stage 2 tells you what to do

 

Week 4: Stage 3 tells you what to do

 

this I would have no problem with but instantly sharing what we have to do kinda ruins the mystery of learning a raid.

[FelisImpurrator]

I'm sorry did they removing AA from trading ? cause if so I must of missed it from the hotfix notes

 

Now my question to you is, "Do you realize" how many games and company's don't put the information on things that are consider raids compared to how many do ? If you do be my guess and share that information with everyone here.

 

If what you were suggesting threw earlier post by having "unlock tiers" where each week it unlocked a portion of the "raid help" to help new players understand. For instance;

 

During launch week:

Week 1: Nothing doesn't tell you anything about the raid

 

Week 2: Stage 1 tells you what to do

 

Week 3:  Stage 2 tells you what to do

 

Week 4: Stage 3 tells you what to do

 

this I would have no problem with but instantly sharing what we have to do kinda ruins the mystery of learning a raid.

Translation:"Oh, it doesn't count because you can pay for it!" Except some people want to earn their arcanes because they can't or won't spend plat on them. Paying or trading for content is extraneous to regular gameplay and should be treated as such.

-

Now, my question to you is, do you realize that it doesn't matter what other companies do? Someone else's screwup is not an excuse for Warframe not to do better. I've noticed a lot of people seem to have their standards set so low that "Ah, it's okay, other games do it worse" is their benchmark. Is that really a good reason to dismiss valid criticism? Is that going to make the game better?

-

And no one said anything about "instantly" posting a step-by-step handhold. Only that it needed to have a clearer path from start to finish. Like, you know, basic objectives. Obscuring both the "what" and the "how" is pointless; you have to have at least the "what to do", even if the intent is for people to figure out "how to do it".

-

Also? Honestly, the raid's design isn't especially great. All the challenge comes from buttons and hacking puzzles - the thing should be renamed the Trials of Vay Hack, that's all you do, because actual combat isn't even viable and CC-forever is the only strategy that doesn't end with you overwhelmed by enemies most guns won't even scratch.

[Gravefire]

Translation:"Oh, it doesn't count because you can pay for it!" Except some people want to earn their arcanes because they can't or won't spend plat on them. Paying or trading for content is extraneous to regular gameplay and should be treated as such.

But as stated the option is there for players. Some players don't want to deal with the raid as they're some who do which could better benefit from doing the raid.

 

 

Now, my question to you is, do you realize that it doesn't matter what other companies do? Someone else's screwup is not an excuse for Warframe not to do better. I've noticed a lot of people seem to have their standards set so low that "Ah, it's okay, other games do it worse" is their benchmark. Is that really a good reason to dismiss valid criticism? Is that going to make the game better?

Actually, it should matter.  Having pulled info from other "games" can help you better in general learn from their mistakes with raiding content. No, it doesn't mean Warframe should take their exact model or anything other than that but it helps as somewhat of a guideline to how they can better raids in Warframe.

 

 

 

 

Also? Honestly, the raid's design isn't especially great. All the challenge comes from buttons and hacking puzzles - the thing should be renamed the Trials of Vay Hack, that's all you do, because actual combat isn't even viable and CC-forever is the only strategy that doesn't end with you overwhelmed by enemies most guns won't even scratch.

 

 

I understand that you or several others like to have a clear or clearer path from start to finish, but that's how you personal want it designed. Even tho, you, personal may not like the Destiny raid design or that type of raiding, others may like cause it's a sense of challenge. Now you might argue with, "hacking, standing still, and CC isn't raiding" but it's to some people. Crowed Control at it's prime concept is "crowd control" if you're getting overwhelmed you tend to CC. So just like with this raid cc is part of the prime concept of this trial.

 

DE does have the ability to make minions immune to certain types of CC during the raid, which they'll more than likely do in the upcoming raid.

 

 

 

Also? Honestly, the raid's design isn't especially great. All the challenge comes from buttons and hacking puzzles - the thing should be renamed the Trials of Vay Hack, that's all you do, because actual combat isn't even viable and CC-forever is the only strategy that doesn't end with you overwhelmed by enemies most guns won't even scratch.

You're right. The raid design could of been a whole lot better but it's a first attempt at something that can be larger. Also, the normal kill constantly / combat is viable with the right comp set up.

 

 

 

Personally, I'm done with this topic. Have fun doing whatever you want to added, just keep in mind some people like the mystery of not having help in anyway.

Edited June 7, 2015 by Gravefire

[FelisImpurrator]

But as stated the option is there for players. Some players don't want to deal with the raid as they're some who do which could better benefit from doing the raid.

 

Actually, it should matter.  Having pulled info from other "games" can help you better in general learn from their mistakes with raiding content. No, it doesn't mean Warframe should take their exact model or anything other than that but it helps as somewhat of a guideline to how they can better raids in Warframe.

 

I understand that you or several others like to have a clear or clearer path from start to finish, but that's how you personal want it designed. Even tho, you, personal may not like the Destiny raid design or that type of raiding, others may like cause it's a sense of challenge. Now you might argue with, "hacking, standing still, and CC isn't raiding" but it's to some people. Crowed Control at it's prime concept is "crowd control" if you're getting overwhelmed you tend to CC. So just like with this raid cc is part of the prime concept of this trial.

 

DE does have the ability to make minions immune to certain types of CC during the raid, which they'll more than likely do in the upcoming raid.

 

You're right. The raid design could of been a whole lot better but it's a first attempt at something that can be larger. Also, the normal kill constantly / combat is viable with the right comp set up.

 

Personally, I'm done with this topic. Have fun doing whatever you want to added, just keep some people like the mystery of not having help in anyway.

*sigh* The option is there, but it should never be the only option. Just how much money are people throwing around that they can afford to suggest trade as a default solution to not being able to access content?

 

"Having pulled info from other "games" can help you better in general learn from their mistakes with raiding content." But the way it was presented implied not that DE should learn from their mistakes, but rather that "other games don't put any info in their raids, so DE doesn't need to bother with it".

 

And - as mentioned before by people who actually played Destiny, at least that game had objectives listed. This game doesn't even have a screen that tells you what the current task is, just Vay Hek (hilariously, but unhelpfully) trolling every few minutes. And no matter how much the "but that's just your preference" card gets thrown around, it's not really saying anything - after all, why should any of our preferences be less important than yours or anyone else's?

 

Flat out sticking CC immunity on things would end in the worst way possible. We already have the Juggernauts with their flat 2k per shot damage cap. How does being ganged up on by level 80 Isolator Bursas sound to you? Not my idea of fun or exciting. And I'm really not sure "press 4 to keep everything stunlocked forever" was anything even close to what DE envisioned for the raid - who would actually make that their "prime concept" for an entire mission? Seriously?

 

As for the raid being viable with normal combat, and not just spamming Disarm/Mprime/Prism/whatever, proof or it didn't happen. And it doesn't count if the "right setup" is one very specific checklist of frames you can't deviate from.

 

But, well, whatever people consider a mystery these days, I guess. I mean, in Zork you could at least take the time to plan your moves out so you wouldn't get eaten by a grue (hi, Manic's great-great-great-great-granddaddy), but maybe adventure games have gotten especially hardcore about time limits now. Or something. Plus, the grues get to spawn in broad daylight while you try to look for a way into the house. Is that reference a bit too old-fashioned?