Make All Weapons Equal But Different.

[(PSN)Evan_Johnson]

 I don't know why the devs make some weapons crappier then others. When this happens all it does is limit a players options in choice of weaponry. Limiting player's choices is a rule that shouldn't be broken. All weapons should feel different, or have different aspects but still be equal in use and value. 

 I feel sorry for the poor sucker who spends hours designing an amazing weapon only to never have anyone see or use it because it sucks compared to something else. Even the creators of Destiny realize this mistake and fixed it(kinda). I have played Warfame for 2 years ever since it came out and have played with almost every single weapon and think these are the biggies that need to be addressed immediately:

 

Glaive buff- I know it has  weak damage and slow melee speed to make up for the range and you being able to throw it but why the hell would i want a throwing weapon when I got a freaking machine gun! I even forma the crap out of the glaive prime and it still sucks. I know why no one uses this weapon. This is suppose to be the signature weapon off of Dark Sector (played the crap out of that game). Dark Sector is the game warfare is based off of!  Its a shame because this weapon has one of the sweetest looking stances. 

 

Buff Aklex-Reload time is ridiculously slow, rate of fire even slower, and the kick back is insane.Damage output . . . meh. By the time you add all the mods to fix these problems you have no mod slots left for increasing damage.  Don't even waste your time or resources with these guns when you can use the Asvastos which have faster reload speed, 5x  higher fire rate and almost no kick back and almost the same amount of damage. But then again, you are forcing your players to limit their options of weaponry

 

Lanka Sniper Rifle. I have never seen one person use this gun. Why? Because the bullets move slower then a nerf football thrown by a 2 year old (better make that 1 year old). This gun already takes forever to charge to balance out its damage output so why throw in a slow bullet speed. Not to mention it has a scope with one of the biggest zooms so adding in that slow bullet speed make this sniper counter productive and frustrating to use. This is supposed to be a electric base weapon. In case the dev's don't know it, electricity travels really really fast. Sorry to be mean on this one but dammit its been almost a year for you guys to fix this major mistake.

 

Now the dev fixes for most of these problems seem to be "Derrrr, we can just make a mod to fix that." but because I have to use up a mod slot to fix something that is already broken I am just making my weapon weaker. I am sure there are many other weapon balances that should be fixed, but to me these are the biggies. These issues aren't fun, just frustrating. I would be more excited about these changes then buying *insert curse word here* armor for my kubrow. 

Edited June 4, 2015 by (PS4)Evan_Johnson

[DarkSoulStrider]

i have one question for you. Do you still use your bike from when you were 4?

[p3z1]

Glaive buff- I know it has  weak damage and slow melee speed to make up for the range and you being able to throw it but why the hell would i want a throwing weapon when I got a freaking machine gun! I even forma the crap out of the glaive prime and it still sucks. I know why no one uses this weapon. This is suppose to be the signature weapon off of Dark Sector (played the crap out of that game). Dark Sector is the game warfare is based off of!  Its a shame because this weapon has one of the sweetest looking stances.

 

The glaive is already strong as it is. Check online for builds on it. Also my glaive is strong enough to kill me

 

Buff Aklex-Reload time is ridiculously slow, rate of fire even slower, and the kick back is insane.Damage output . . . meh. By the time you add all the mods to fix these problems you have no mod slots left for increasing damage.  Don't even waste your time or resources with these guns when you can use the Asvastos which have faster reload speed, 5x  higher fire rate and almost no kick back and almost the same amount of damage. But then again, you are forcing your players to limit their options of weaponry

 

Aklex is more accurate than Akvasto. It's like comparing snipers to assault rifles.

 

Lanka Sniper Rifle. I have never seen one person use this gun. Why? Because the bullets move slower then a nerf football thrown by a 2 year old (better make that 1 year old). This gun already takes forever to charge to balance out its damage output so why throw in a slow bullet speed. Not to mention it has a scope with one of the biggest zooms so adding in that slow bullet speed make this sniper counter productive and frustrating to use. This is supposed to be a electric base weapon. In case the dev's don't know it, electricity travels really really fast. Sorry to be mean on this one but dammit its been almost a year for you guys to fix this major mistake.

 

Snipers are due for a buff, when it'll be is unknown.

 

 Now the dev fixes for most of these problems seem to be "Derrrr, we can just make a mod to fix that." but because I have to use up a mod slot to fix something that is already broken I am just making my weapon weaker. I am sure there are many other weapon balances that should be fixed, but to me these are the biggies. These issues aren't fun, just frustrating. I would be more excited about these changes then buying *insert curse word here* armor for my kubrow. 

 

As much as i have to agree to this part, its not always the case. Now let me compare 2 weapons:

 

Supra, which needs a lot of buffs

Soma, which is OP

 

Both have slow reload speed and a spool up time

Both will require ammo mutation at some point

So some things must remain untouched, while others looked at

Edited June 4, 2015 by p3z1

[(PSN)IJurassicJakeI]

"Equal"

"Different"

Does not compute, also the majority of your arguments are opinions or just plain wrong. See; Glaive Prime

I think you'd really enjoy the Soma/Boltor Prime though...

[Holeypaladin]

Some weapons are designed to be low-level weapons.  Hence their lower mastery rank.

 

It doesn't make sense to, as stated above, continue to use the bike with its training wheels from when you were four.

[Monster-T]

At least one weapon of each weapon type should be high-tier, imho.

[DSpite]

At least one weapon of each weapon type should be high-tier, imho.

 

What "tiers"? There is no tiers. Game play around level 40-60 enemies is the end of the enemy scale, and all weapons can be Forma'd to work there.

 

Asking for all guns to be death hoses vs level 200+ enemies will basically defeat the idea of having Star Chart missions. Weapons just need to work well enough on Alerts and special missions. Endless you can't balance for because there is no maximum numbers, it scales to infinity.

[(PSN)ElZilcho]

"Equal"

"Different"

Does not compute

Exactly this. Any statistical difference will give one weapon an advantage. Two guns, equal in every way except one doing puncture and one doing slash, will have one be labeled "the only viable choice." For high tier tower missions, it will be the slash weapon for people running corrosive projection, by the way. Equal but different can never happen as long as there is any modding system whatsoever and guns are more than skin swaps. There are too many variables.

Even moreso, I disagree with this desire for same-ness. Not everything should be a "sidegrade." Why get a different gun if it won't have different strengths? And let's not even get into the impossibility of balancing an Amprex against a Vectis. I would much rather play a game where I get newer, better weapons as I go through. I enjoyed building up from Mk-1 Braton to Paris Prime and piling forma onto weapons that weren't quite good enough to bring them up (and onto weapons that were great to make them even greater).

Why ruin that?

Destiny

Oh, the game of almost nothing but reskins that is still wildly unbalanced.

Edited June 4, 2015 by (PS4)ElZilcho

[Rekkou]

Glaive is a melee and best used for stealth, they can easily get 4x damage bonus from stealth and invisibility. And here you are trying to compare it with machine gun.

 

Aklex is more powerful with crit build but balanced with slow firing and reload time. Akvasto is faster with quick reload time but weaker damage. These two alone already fits your "equal but different" yet you are unable to see it.

 

Modding is intended to improve many aspects of weapons, not just damage. Lanka has plenty of damage that it won't hurt to use 1-2 mod for faster charge or faster projectile speed. Yet you refuse and only want to mod for damage.

 

No kind of balancing can fix broken player

[Sloan441]

That game is called Destiny. This game isn't Destiny.

[S7ORM]

 

Damage mods should not add extra damage -- that means that the better weapon builds are the ones that pump full of DPS.

What they SHOULD do, is modify the percentage of a weapons damage to different types -- for example:

-Serration no longer exists.

Assume a weapon that does Weapon does 300 damage split evenly between puncture, impact and slash.

So, a base 100% damage split into the three base damage types: puncture, impact, slash. (Or two damage types, or one. It doesn't really matter. Depends on the weapon, but for this example its all 3).

Spoilers are good for grouping.

Any mod placed in first slot draws its % from that 100%, and the remaining % is divided back to the original damage types in the same fractions as they originally were. So Piercing Hit would take 10% puncture claimed forever. The remaining 90% is divided evenly between the original 3 types:

 

Then the next mod that is placed in that would change the damage, draws its % from the remaining 90%. So Piercing Caliber would take 30% of the 90% remainig -- that means 27% total damage. Now, 27+10% of the damage is Puncture (from the mods). The remaining 63% is divided evenly through the original 3 base types (that includes puncture, impact and slash. This puncture is from the original weapon, not from the mods).
 

Now, Hellfire takes its 30% from the remaining 63%, meaning 18.9% as fire damage. Now 37+18.9% is taken by the mods, and the remaining 44.1% is split between the 3 base damage types.

 

Now, High Voltage is added on, after Hellfire. It takes 30% from the remaining 44.1%, meaning 13.23% is electric damage -- BUT, electric and heat combine so a total of 13.23+18.9% is Radiation damage, 37% is puncture. The remaining 30.87% is split between the original 3. It also adds status %.

So, in total, 13.23+18.9=32.13% is radiation damage, 37+(30.87/3)=47.29% is puncture damage, 10.29% is impact damage, 10.29% is slash damage.

That way, the order of the mods matters, forcing players to actually think what types of damage they want the most effect from. If you place Piercing Caliber at the front (taking 30% of the 100%) then Hellfire (taking 30% of the 70%) then High Voltage (taking 30% of the 49%) THEN Piercing Hit (taking 10% of the remaining 34.3),
then you get less overall puncture from the mods, and more radiation.

And it's easier for [DE] to balance weapons -- based on the base damage and the initial starting damage types. However, it's also easy to change the major part of the damage of a weapon -- so a mainly puncture weapon can become mainly impact. This lets players use virtually any weapon they want for any level -- say they like bows, but only have the Paris? They can still use it against Corpus. It will always have a trace of its original damage split (the nature of taking percentages of remaining), but the vast majority of the damage is whatever you want it to be.

 

It also removes mandatory mods (pure damage increase) in favour of specializing damage types against the enemy you will be facing.

With this set, you can easily create a wider spread of weapons per tier for balancing purposes, and also to give structure in case you wanted to add more Mastery locking to weapons -- you can easily tell what weapons will do more damage based on a simple base damage*fire rate/clip size calculation. All weapons in that grouping of similar values will have different base % of damage types inherent to the weapons, so a fast firing, low damage-per-shot puncture weapon will still be the same tier as a slow firing, high damage, base electric type weapon.

Yes, they're likely to be used against different enemies, but the DPS would be to more or less even for that tier.

 

That way, we can see what sorts of weapons should be locked out for players on Mercury, etc. And we can lock them easily behind low level Mastery Rank barriers (0,1,2,3,4,5) to give a sense of progression into more powerful weaponry. At each tier level, however, there will be a wide variety of different weapon types -- varying quite a bit because of fire rates, damage per shot, clip size, projectile speed, base damage type spread, base elemental damages, etc. 
So it's not like there's going to be one weapon that is just way better than others (*CoughSomaPrimeSlashPreNerfSynoidGammacorCough*), because DE could balance the DPS to the tier easily (because there will actually BE a structure or guideline on balanced DPS).

inb4 "No mastery locking." You can literally pull through Mastery Rank 3 within your first day of playing. I would know, I did it.

 

Obviously, it would be an extensive overhaul to how damage mods work, and there would have to be a lot of tweaking of numbers, but I think it would be the most effective solution (the mastery locking thing can be ignored if we want to. Just a suggestion).

With this happening, we can tone down the enemy scaling as well. Significantly.

That's just for weapons. Powers will also need looking at after that, because if we weaken weapons and enemies as they are now, powers will be far more OP. For a simple balance before they get reworked, you could just tone down the damage numbers on some of those abilities (when the enemy scaling is reduced).

Now, Multishot. I like the idea of multishot -- having a  % chance to fire extra bullets at no cost. However, having a high chance (90%+ as we do now) essentially makes it a "Damage x2" mod. What we need to see, is what we can already see in Archwing.
Multishot mods need a significantly lower % to happen, like the 30% in archwing. That way, you can either mod for the low chance that you'll get a second bullet, or fill that spot with another consistently useful mod -- like reload speed.

I think after all of this, we'd be seeing a lot more variation in modding with weapons, and more usage from some currently under appreciated mods like reload speed and magazine sizes, and possibly Primed Chamber (or its little cousin Charged Chamber) and the status duration mods (well... maybe not those ones).


Thoughts?

[TheGrimCorsair]

Unfortunately, the genie of horizontal progression is not one DE has any intention of pursuing, regardless of its benefits or deficiencies.

 

That said, DSpite is pretty much on point. Within the levels equipment is mostly projected and balanced for, that is levels 1-60, all challenges remain completable (if not without some amount of difficulty) with all weapons, contingent on investment of Catalyst, a variable amount of Forma, and proper modding. You'll note that high-level Nightmare missions, the raids, and extreme endurance endless missions (those being Excavation, Defense, and Survival north of 1 hr.) are far more contingent on the composition of warframes than the weapons involved.

 

Edit:

Forgot to add: Mastery Rating is asinine, as are its defenders.

Edited June 4, 2015 by TheGrimCorsair

[Monster-T]

What "tiers"? There is no tiers. Game play around level 40-60 enemies is the end of the enemy scale, and all weapons can be Forma'd to work there.

 

Asking for all guns to be death hoses vs level 200+ enemies will basically defeat the idea of having Star Chart missions. Weapons just need to work well enough on Alerts and special missions. Endless you can't balance for because there is no maximum numbers, it scales to infinity.

Sorry to say that, but there ARE tiers. Try to forma a Kraken to be end-game viable. And no - "end game" is not lvl 40-60... "end game" is lvl 80 because of the trials.

[Sloan441]

Since you don't really want to kill stuff in the trials (as it presently is), it's a moot point.

 

Many don't bother with trials. I don't. If I wanted raid content with mandatory raid configurations and all the sturm und drang that goes with it, I'd go back to playing WoW.

 

The golem trial might change my mind...and it might not. This stuff is really aimed more at clans and mine is moribund, so...dunno. Just not much interest in it. I prefer not to rely on other poeples' schedules and competence (or lack thereof) in the game. I spent 10 years on WoW on that treadmill and it's a relief not to have to do it at present.

[HyenaGrin]

I'm okay with some weapons being better than others, though I will say that crafting requirements and mastery rank requirements should probably better reflect the 'tier' of the weapon in question. There's too many weapons that are very hard to get and yet don't stand up to basic weapons that you can begin using at a relatively low level, just buying the blueprints off of the market.

 

Dual Raza comes to mind.... talk about a high investment with low return.

[Archistopheles]

i have one question for you. Do you still use your bike from when you were 4?

Did your parents buy you a new bike every two weeks?

[Naqel]

Some weapons are designed to be low-level weapons.  Hence their lower mastery rank.

 

Your nickname is quite ironic, since you mus be an atheist to spout this kind of nonsense without fear of divine retribution.

 

No weapon that is restricted by mastery rank, dose so for any practical reason, save for maybe, MAYBE, dragon nikana.

 

Rank to which weapons are restricted has nothing to do with the type of content the player is expected to face at that rank, or requiring some exceptional experience with the game.

Those restrictions exist for entirely arbitrary reasons, on an arbitrary selection of gear, and at an entirely arbitrary rank.

 

 

Did your parents buy you a new bike every two weeks?

 

Edited June 4, 2015 by Naqel

[Ronyn]

 I don't know why the devs make some weapons crappier then others. When this happens all it does is limit a players options in choice of weaponry. Limiting player's choices is a rule that shouldn't be broken. All weapons should feel different, or have different aspects but still be equal in use and value. 

Yes and no. 

To clarify-

The advantage to having tiered weapons is a clear goal to go after a clear sense of progression when you acquire the "new hotness"

The advantage to having balance among different types of weapons all the about same in terms of viability is player choice. 

Having different tiered weapons does not limit choice as long as there is a weapon of every type at every tier.

 

Like, it's fine that there is an MK1-Paris, A Paris, and a paris prime because the same core gameplay style remains throughout.

That is a good thing.

 

The problem in warframes weapon choices right now is that there are certain types of weapons that don't have good representation in every teir...

and that what kind of weapon should fit into what teir is not always clear.

 

 

"Equal"

"Different"

Does not compute, 

Equal AND different totally computes. That is what the concept of balance is trying to achieve.

A shotgun, a sniper rifle, and an assault rifle are all different from each other...

but in a well balanced game they are all equally viable weapons and it comes down to which situation you're in and what the player prefers.

In a poorly balanced game one or two of those weapon types might be way out of wack with the others and that actually makes it way harder or way easier for a player with a certain preference to be effective.

 

 

What "tiers"? There is no tiers. Game play around level 40-60 enemies is the end of the enemy scale, and all weapons can be Forma'd to work there.

Seriously..

1: Stop pretending that DE didn't put in raids where we go up against level 80 enemies. 

Has it lead to balance issues and scaling problems? Yes. Does that need to addressed? yes.

Do they need to define the end and stick to it? yes.

But it happened...pretending it didn't is not helping.

 

2: Even if every weapon can work at every level, there are still obvious power differences between them.

Heck, in many dedicated multiplayer arena games there are "standard weapons" and "power weapons"..

which represent different tiers of power even though they are all capable of killing the other guy.

 

I mean come on..the paris example. There are obviously tiers there.

 

 

Since you don't really want to kill stuff in the trials (as it presently is), it's a moot point.

That's a matter of opinion at best. The objectives of the trials arent exactly focused around killing.

But using excessive CC to stun lock and avoid battle is hardly satisfying for a lot of people...

nor is it indicative of "good balance".

Edited June 4, 2015 by Ronyn

[(PSN)vampiro09]

DE please make Jat kitag prime and Phage prime.☺

[(PSN)JiggaJazz]

Equal how? Burst? Sustained? Physical dmg?

[Holeypaladin]

The Conclave system makes all weapons "equal."

 

And I absolutely hate it.  I'd probably quit the game if they applied conclave weapon mechanics to co-op play.