Ember Is Broken In So Many Ways

[climatiseur]

I am now actually using short duration on Ember, and find it quite satisfactory.

 

Because for 3rd, enemies don't really stand on the ring very long, so long duration is worthless, besdies new enemies aren't that stupid enough to walk to the ring. Anyway you can just recast.  Recasting several ring on the same place, if you position correctly, it does lots of damage on the ones standing on it.

 

For 4th, as the initial blast affect all enemies in range, (so as the ragdoll of augment), short duration actually work better, just like Chaos.

 

For 2nd, you want to keep them stun as long as possible while affecting new enemies, so short duration again wins, again just like Chaos.

 

But I guess it's just another phenomenon that actually shouldn't happen in the first place.

[Hypernaut1]

Yeah, her skills can be useful, depending on the situation, but there's very little synergy between them. They all seem to be tailored towards different power attributes, with the final nail in the coffin being her ultimate that would need ALL power stats to be effective. They also seem to be tailored towards different playstyle, with really no common ground between them and none of her power being excellent at... anything really.

And that's the big, BIG problem with Ember:

 

"Other frames do it better".

 

Ember doesn't excel at anything. She's one of the worst choices or even downright THE worst choice for most of the content. She's decent enough against infested, but even there other frames outperform her. Her damage falls off rapidly once enemies reach 20, 25+, her utility is downright minimal, she has short ranges on her skills but not enough speed, armor, HP or defensive skills to get into and fight at that range, no synergies with other players unless they pack heat damage (not a favourite dmg type). There's really never a reason to pick Ember over any other frame - even with her supposed strength against fleshy stuff... other damage focused frames do it better.

 

Take a look at other frames that also don't neccessarily excel in any one area, but make up for it by being really frickin' decent overall, say Loki or Nova. Now neither of them is currently a "must have" for high-end content, but they're still played a LOT. Why? They're always decent choices. Their kit offers moblity, utility and crowd control, what's not to like? It doesn't matter what mission type, what enemy type, they have the tools to be decent enough at damn near everything.

Other frames may be more specialized, tailored towards defensive stuff or towards offensive stuff. They may not be the ultimate best choice either, and many have problems themselves with a bit of useless kit here and there, but they get used because they're really good at what they do and, within their field, can duke it out with the best of them.

 

But Ember? There's simply no mission, no enemy type where her kit of powers would stand out as awesome and overall she's just too weak. No reason to play her other than "I like how she plays". And I do, I like throwing fireballs, punching the ground for fire explosions or going LEEEEROY with WoF. It's really, really fun, and yeah she *can* be made usable... kinda, but other frames do everything she does. Only farther, faster, cheaper, more powerful, more effective, more reliable.

 

I'm hoping for a complete rework. Dear DE: Scrap her powers, start from scratch with a concept for a frame, with a role that is useful. Design her from ground up for ... something, anything. But either make it specific, so she's really fricking good at that, or give her a variable kit so she's decent enough at a lot of things. I don't mind. Just don't throw any more half-assed utility or CC augments at her or "buff" her skills any more. She's had enough buffs. Fix her.

You have absolutely NO IDEA of what you're talking about. That, or we play different games.

I personally find ember far more effective than my Volt. I confidently bring her into t4 and high level content. She consistently brings the damage, and I don't use boltor. Her skills work great together, and deal damage for a long time.

I would play with anyone saying otherwise just to show them how effective she is.

[VinnyBoy]

I also don't understand when people say Ember ain't good. She's amazing!
And they say he WoF got ruined with a timer well woop-a-doo, I guess I'm stupid to stop it prematurely just to recast it so I can do finishers on everything I see.

[Malikon]

The only real issues I have with Ember isn't an issue with her, persay, but with her augments.  The issue being that Fireball Frenzy is the only augment she has that actually deserves to be an augment.  The stagger from Fire Fright used to be part of Fireblast.  That is a poor basis for an augment, readding a function to an ability that was previously part of the ability.  Also, Firequake just seems like it should be part of WoF, and not a mod slot. 

[Ryjeon]

The only real issues I have with Ember isn't an issue with her, persay, but with her augments.  The issue being that Fireball Frenzy is the only augment she has that actually deserves to be an augment.  The stagger from Fire Fright used to be part of Fireblast.  That is a poor basis for an augment, readding a function to an ability that was previously part of the ability.  Also, Firequake just seems like it should be part of WoF, and not a mod slot. 

 

Yeah, her Augments are really disappointing. Especially when Banshee gets augments which could have addressed Ember's issues with power efficiency and armored enemies.

 

Firequake is just redundant on a high power strength Ember because the burn procs already lock enemies up pretty well while multiplying her overall damage, and combined with Accelerant and Fire Blast she already has a strong CC profile. Firequake only really seems marginally useful if you're running a low-powerstrength "cold" Ember since you don't get consistent burn procs at low power strength. But even then in situations that call for persistent CC I just cast more Accelerant.  I think the main problem with that augment is its single targeted nature. If it created a little aoe blast proc like a mini dive bomb effect it would be much more fun and impactful and actually expand World on Fire's CC profile.

Edited June 5, 2015 by Ryjeon

[RealPandemonium]

Ember's fine.  She can reach cheesy levels of damage and CC but also requires effort from the player in order to get results.  

[Doughalo2]

Ember's fine.  She can reach cheesy levels of damage and CC but also requires effort from the player in order to get results.  

so either nerf every warframe... or do the right thing and just buff ember to make her better

[RealPandemonium]

Toning down the degree to which frame powers make the game a snoozefest does not have to make the other warframes worse in their overall capabilities.  Frame cheese would go hand in hand with enemy rebalancing, putting all frames on a similar level while eliminating autowin loadouts that create boring, non-gameplay.

Edited June 6, 2015 by RealPandemonium

[-InV-igo95862]

Ember is fine.

 

 

Exelent clearing abilities for low level stuff.

 

 

Even in high level content there are a lot of uses for Ember. First you can use Fireball augment to give significant damage to allies. Combine it with Accelerant and your allies will deal x12 damage with base powerstrenght. She also has a spammable stun and a push back.

[Bibliothekar]

I'm hoping for a complete rework. Dear DE: Scrap her powers, start from scratch with a concept for a frame, with a role that is useful. Design her from ground up for ... something, anything. But either make it specific, so she's really fricking good at that, or give her a variable kit so she's decent enough at a lot of things. I don't mind. Just don't throw any more half-assed utility or CC augments at her or "buff" her skills any more. She's had enough buffs. Fix her.

Yes, please. I'd love to see her become the ultimate nuke-frame, the pyromaniac that really sets the world on fire.

 

Why not have ember leave a trail of cinders behind her as she walks for a few seconds. I cannot even justify using the augment.

You mean what WoF was like before they reworked Sargas Ruk and changed Ember in the same breath?

[Redhux]

Ember Prime is missing a "Prime" Polarity (Means 1 more polarity than Ember...)

 

And the ultimate duration should be removed.

 

 

 

Ember is weak so... I doubt that frame will ever reach the pinnacle (unfortunately).

[TimFlint]

You have absolutely NO IDEA of what you're talking about. That, or we play different games.

I personally find ember far more effective than my Volt. I confidently bring her into t4 and high level content. She consistently brings the damage, and I don't use boltor. Her skills work great together, and deal damage for a long time.

I would play with anyone saying otherwise just to show them how effective she is.

 

Wow, what a great way to enter a discussion. That's a sure way to totally not incite a response like "Now listen here you little [expletive]!". Especially since you then follow with ... anecdotal stuff but nothing of value, really.

 

But down to the actual topic:

1.) Volt. Volt's 1 is rather similar to Ember's 1, including the augment. His 2 and 3 benefit the entire team and his 4 is useful once, then never again. So his contribution to the team doesn't come from raw damage but from consitently supporting his team with damage buffs, shields and speed. His usefulness doesn't come from raw damage, but utility.

2.) A damage focused frame does damage. Yeah, that's about to be expected, no? But how does the usefulness of her damage compare against non-damage frames? How amazingly does her damage compare to other damage focus frames, how does she compare in ease of use, energy efficiency and damage output to, say, Mirage or Mesa? And how much utility does Ember bring compared to those? If you end a defensive match with ~30%+ damage while a Frost or Nyx only scores 15-20%... then you didn't really pull your weight. Their contribution, even though they did far less damage, was more useful.

3.) HOW do her skills work together? Using Accelerant to make her other skills useful is just... clunky, a waste of energy and (compared to so many other frames' powers) not effective. Then Ember needs to juggle all power stats, other frames get away with focusing on some that compliment each other, dumping others. Again, not about the end-result being neccessarily bad, but other frames can get to similar or even superior results much easier and cheaper.

4.) What does the Boltor have to do with anything here?

 

I never said Ember was terrible, I said "yeah she *can* be made usable... kinda, but other frames do everything she does. Only farther, faster, cheaper, more powerful, more effective, more reliable." or, and I even made it stand out boldly in its own paragraph, "Other frames do it better".

She has no area where she stands out as amazing and, compared to other "all-rounder" frames, she's just too weak and lacking reliable utility. For a lot of the content this doesn't matter much, any frame can do T4 before, say, lvl 50'ish enemies. But the problem remains that there's never a reason to actually choose her over any other frame other than "I like how she plays" or "I want to burn stuff and giggle like a madman".

Edited June 7, 2015 by TimFlint

[Sixty5]

From what I have played of Ember recently, I have no issues with her kit.

For anything that can be considered regular content she is awesome.

Hell up until 40 minutes/waves she does great as a caster if you can manage your energy.

After that point your damage tends to drop off too much to be used as a primary kill method, but even then you have a lot of CC and your abilities still take out a decent chunk of enemy hp.

What I'd say Ember needs more than anything else is a bit of innate energy sustain. Without siphons and a Synoid to keep you topped up you burn though energy extremely quickly.

A passive that restores energy in some way would help her out in this respect and make her that much better.

[Ironlixivium]

Hey, at least she can take out 5 lvl 80 heavies unlike limbo XD I just tested this.

 

I'd personally like it if ember could have some kind of flamethrower like ability, she has flame jets on her arms o.0

 

But realistically I think the best option is just faster casting, cast while moving, and her 3-4 augs being innate, to make her a great cqc frame

Edited June 8, 2015 by Ironlixivium

[Bibliothekar]

Hell up until 40 minutes/waves ...

After that point ...

Starting where? Earth level? T1? Pluto? T4? Seriously, if you don't know where you come from, "40 minutes/waves" gives you no information about enemy level. I'm quite certain that I can take Ember up to 60 minutes and more into Survival and still kill enemies with my abilities - if I start on Earth. T4? Not so much.

[Hueminator]

I'd like to see World On Fire turned into a power like Hysteria and the new Excal ultimate.

 

Excal = Range mode

 

Valk = Melee mode

 

Ember = Powers mode

(and then no more "ultimate transformation" powers ideally, or at least only super original ones)

 

So while it's running her energy regeneration goes into overdrive and her basic attacks are now fire abilities.  Everything leaves flaming trails and patches so when she's done the world really is on fire.

I prefer Chroma effigy into the power mode more than ember.  Instead of AI control, just make you go with dragon wings and fly like archwing mode and left click spray <element> and right click go big boom power ball of <element>

 

Ember's #3 needs massive buff. Accelerant could works much better if

 

1) Stun duration are also base on duration build (no spam as much)

2) Fire-derived element also get damage boost (blast, gas, and radiation)

Edited June 8, 2015 by Hueminator

[traybong111]

Yeah, her Augments are really disappointing. Especially when Banshee gets augments which could have addressed Ember's issues with power efficiency and armored enemies.

 

Firequake is just redundant on a high power strength Ember because the burn procs already lock enemies up pretty well while multiplying her overall damage, and combined with Accelerant and Fire Blast she already has a strong CC profile. Firequake only really seems marginally useful if you're running a low-powerstrength "cold" Ember since you don't get consistent burn procs at low power strength. But even then in situations that call for persistent CC I just cast more Accelerant.  I think the main problem with that augment is its single targeted nature. If it created a little aoe blast proc like a mini dive bomb effect it would be much more fun and impactful and actually expand World on Fire's CC profile.

 

Firequake could have been good if ground finishers were a bit more reliable (hint hint, maybe some tweaks/suggestions to melee 2.0 while we're at it?!). I find it works OK with melee-only Ember but I agree knockdown should have been an innate feature of WoF, not an augment. I'm not sure if this should be an augment to Fireblast or WoF: enemies set on fire by Ember's abilities now have a high chance to spread that fire and panic to nearby enemies (outside the range of her abilities), who would not be afflicted with normal fire proc but instead a mini-Terrify effect like running away. I've always felt like Fire Fright should bestow a mini-Terrify effect to Fireblast. 

 

I hope Accelerant augment is something more worthwhile considering it's arguably her best ability, maybe something that lowers enemies' armor or accuracy. While most fire accelerants are clear-to-light liquids, some can be "dyed," both artificially and naturally, to distinguish them from other substances like water. Or maybe I just like the idea of a pyromaniac flinging oil at someone's face and setting it on fire. 

[Djego27]

Starting where? Earth level? T1? Pluto? T4? Seriously, if you don't know where you come from, "40 minutes/waves" gives you no information about enemy level. I'm quite certain that I can take Ember up to 60 minutes and more into Survival and still kill enemies with my abilities - if I start on Earth. T4? Not so much.

 

Ember facerolls L100+ corrupted bombards in 2-3s with ease(no you don't need CP), dps on Ember at high levels is never a problem(if you have the specific weapons for her). The issue is mostly that at low levels all other DPS that press buttons to do dps instead shoting stuff in the face incredible hard are better, you get one hit by units you can't CC properly(nullifiers, balistas far away in cover) and that she is fairly bad vs high level Infested. That means if it doesn't have a radiation proc on it, it will take no damage and all your AOE skills just heal the targets that give out 90% damage reduction.

 

One major issue with the frame is that you have to use certain weapons in specific builds to lessen\eliminate the effect of armor\shield scaling on your accelerant boosted weapon dps(what means 80%+ of your total dps output), what goes so far that if you don't have a boar prime with shell shock(since it is the only 100% status shotgun in the game that can be corrosive\magnetic + fire modded) you are screwed in scaling content. Currently we don't have a effective weapon for Ember vs high level infested, the mara detron with radiation\corrosive and fire can work to some extend but falls simply short at proc chance and is outplayed by a radiation\viral boar prime as early as L80+(that can't use accelerant and does bad damage on paper, but still kills much faster since you don't have to deal with the 90% damage resistance on every target you hit till you finaly get your radiation proc).

[Ryjeon]

Ember facerolls L100+ corrupted bombards in 2-3s with ease(no you don't need CP), dps on Ember at high levels is never a problem(if you have the specific weapons for her). The issue is mostly that at low levels all other DPS that press buttons to do dps instead shoting stuff in the face incredible hard are better, you get one hit by units you can't CC properly(nullifiers, balistas far away in cover) and that she is fairly bad vs high level Infested. That means if it doesn't have a radiation proc on it, it will take no damage and all your AOE skills just heal the targets that give out 90% damage reduction.

 

One major issue with the frame is that you have to use certain weapons in specific builds to lessen\eliminate the effect of armor\shield scaling on your accelerant boosted weapon dps(what means 80%+ of your total dps output), what goes so far that if you don't have a boar prime with shell shock(since it is the only 100% status shotgun in the game that can be corrosive\magnetic + fire modded) you are screwed in scaling content. Currently we don't have a effective weapon for Ember vs high level infested, the mara detron with radiation\corrosive and fire can work to some extend but falls simply short at proc chance and is outplayed by a radiation\viral boar prime as early as L80+(that can't use accelerant and does bad damage on paper, but still kills much faster since you don't have to deal with the 90% damage resistance on every target you hit till you finaly get your radiation proc).

 

Spoken like someone that actually plays Ember and knows both her actual limitations and her strengths. Most people who complain about Ember never mention that you need to take a radiation weapon to control infested ancient healers. They parrot saying "Ember is only good against infested" like we're still in Damage 1.0. They also never mention that stacked late-game flame-type eximus can make their allies completely immune to heat damage so you need to have a back-up damage type to take them down. I don't mind these counters to Ember so much because I think a PvE game should be forcing you to react and adapt to situations rather than just having one tactic be 100% reliable all the time. But it is a sort of challenge that specifically affects Ember moreso than other frames.

 

The misinformation about Ember's capabilities is mainly why I get annoyed at these ember is trash posts. I do think we should be giving feedback about Ember and putting forth suggestions to improve her gameplay. But the suggestions so often come via an exaggeration of her weaknesses. She is capable in all content. She may not always be the optimal choice but she's not as far behind as people make her out to be. She has aoe-cc with no internal cooldown, weapon damage buffs for herself and potentially others, and a persistent damage aura which also puts out decent cc pressure. Even her knockback can be useful for keeping dangerous enemies such as nullifiers at bay. And she has synergies with Nova and Frost in that her Accelerant stun duration is significantly increased on enemies who are slowed. Even Heat damage itself gets a bad rap considering the only defense type it has a penalty against is Proto Shields.

 

But the cycle will inevitably continue. I'd rather have the Ember we have now than a frame that just becomes another camping bot.

[Pride]

As someone who desperately attempts to main ember but kinda cant in certain missions because poop. DE needs to decide if she is damage or CC because this hybrid thing they gave her is killing her, often literally. All of her augments are good but those shouldnt be what we base our balance of frames on. accelerate needs wider range and a fixed timer it should be able to hit anything that embers abilities can hit thus it should be as big or bigger than her ultimate.its very expensive to use a 50 energy ability before every cast thus it needs to be more rewarding. her fire-blast needs to be effected by range. her ultimate should drop the activation energy cost and have increase in damage or at the very least it should shoot the mobs up so that they can take fall damage while providing more CC

[Malikon]

As someone who desperately attempts to main ember but kinda cant in certain missions because poop. DE needs to decide if she is damage or CC because this hybrid thing they gave her is killing her, often literally. All of her augments are good but those shouldnt be what we base our balance of frames on. accelerate needs wider range and a fixed timer it should be able to hit anything that embers abilities can hit thus it should be as big or bigger than her ultimate.its very expensive to use a 50 energy ability before every cast thus it needs to be more rewarding. her fire-blast needs to be effected by range. her ultimate should drop the activation energy cost and have increase in damage or at the very least it should shoot the mobs up so that they can take fall damage while providing more CC

I have very little response to most of this, however I will quote and reply to one specific part of this in order to clarify what I consider to be a gross injustice to Ember.

 

Fireball Frenzy is her only augment that actually deserves to be an augment.  The others (Firequake and Fire Fright) are insulting to the intelligence of Ember players.  Fire Fright actually was part of Fireblast for a long time and got removed.  Why should it take a modslot to give us back something we already had?  Firequake is a prime example of an idea that would be a decent-to-great (depends on the player/playstyle) addition to WoF as a built-in part of the skill, but serves no purpose as an augment except nickel-and-diming us out of mod space we don't have. 

[VinnyBoy]

Firequake is powerful. Man, I really don't care about it being an augment.