Jump to content
[DE]Rebecca

Rhino: Charge, Roar & Stomp.

Recommended Posts

Do frost/frost prime get some changes too? Or any other frame? If so...what and which is it?

Edited by ViperHunt

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It feels like this is a buff for some specific builds only. I'm glad you actually buffed the base values though so it's less likely Rhino will end up as Ember 2.0.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please, DE, make Rhino as cool and shiny as Excalibur! Also, do something about Iron Skin and make Rhino abilities more exciting and interesting in general.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Excal was a long running project and a probably a sign of things to come for how frames are designed.

The changes to rhino aren't his big rework, they're basically there to try things out with his design and help him out while they work out their vision for Rhino 2.0 (prob some ways down the line). 

Also, any change they make to Iron Skin now would become the bar for future reworks, and if they change it in the future more people are likely to cry nerf. I think they're being conservative with the Skin til they figure out if the current overshield is what they're going for or not.

What's suggested by me/others/devs isn't a rework idea, I know, but a tweak idea to give Rhino some chance of being a viable endgame frame. If this was a rework thread, I'd be really sad about the effort put into it. 

 

Plus the skin skill has to be buffed, even if players like it or not, due to Rhino being a tank/cc mix frame. If the skin fails, then any effort made to keeping him current with the rest of the frames is a fail.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

To follow up the last post-https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/479260-rhino-charge-roar-stomp/page-7#entry5340923

Alright, so let us say that hypothetically you guy's decide that you want Rhino to fullfill a tank role as much as any other frame in warframe currently does. And operating under the idea that you want this to happen even at the end game/trail level verses level 80 enemies...

I'm going to provide one idea of how that might work.

 

Disclaimer: The specific numbers used are for illustrative purposes only. The important thing to note is the proposed mechanics.

 

Rhino's ability to tank hinges on his capacity to initiate (primarily charge), survive incoming damage (base stats and iron skin) and impede enemy action (charge and stomp) by disrupting them. Additionally he has roar to increase the damage output for himself and the team.

The announced upcoming changes are solid, but without a direct change to his defensive capability they will not be enough to make him a tank.

 

For Rhino's stats, I'd raise his base armor to 350. 

For a relatively simple yet directed fix to iron skin. It would work as follows-

 

  • Rhino hardens his skin to create a reinforcing buffer with 500 / 700 / 1000 / 1500 Armor-based hitpoints. While the buffer is active, Rhino becomes immune to damage and Status Effects. Iron Skin will expire when the buffer's hitpoints are depleted.Total amount of Iron Skins hitpoints is affected by Power Strength.
  •  
  • Iron Skin acts as separate layer of protection over Rhino's health and shields. Iron Skin adds 100 percent of Rhino's total armor value including Steel Fiber, the effects of Iron Clad Charge and any other friendly buffs that would increase Warframe armor..
  •  
  • While Iron Skin is active: any attack rhino does on an enemy will inflict the "taunted" status effect on that enemy. This will cause them to focus all of their attention on rhino for 5 seconds. Each enemy affected by the taunt effect will increase the percentage that Iron Skin gains from his total armor by 2/4/8/10 percent (maybe more?). This affect stacks but cannot exceed a 200 (maybe 300, 400?) percent total armor increase. That percentage is effected by power strength mods. The duration of the taunt effect is affected by duration mods. This means that the more enemies rhino has focused on himself the more durable he is. Note: By "Any attack rhino does I am referring to whoever he shoots, hits with melee or effects with one of his powers. Literally any attack that rhino does. This allows him to pick and choose to taunt enemies one by one or in groups as he the need arises.
  •  
  • The taunt effect caused by attacks done while iron skin is active will be immediately disbanded when iron skin breaks or if it is manually deactivated by iron shrapnel. Note that the enemies formally aggro'ed will not necessarily attack a different target, they are simply no longer forced to attack Rhino and will target enemies as usual.

 

Some thoughts on why I went with this design-

My goal is to increase Rhino's capability to be an effective tank as long as he applies thought and effort to do so properly.

Another goal is that Rhino's defensive aspects don't simply protect him alone, but protects allies as well by drawing fire away from them.

This is meant to directly reward rhino's attempts to protect allies by granting him greater durability for doing so.

as well as work re-actively with the situation. The more you need it, the more you get it principal.

Yet another goal is to give rhino a tanking mechanic that isn't just a rehash of one of some other frames power mechanic.

Also, by having Iron Skin scale off of total armor, the players can create team compositions that take advantage of frames who buff armor.

 

Note: For those concerned that the "taunt" on hit mechanic might be hard to code.

Think of it as a lot like a forced radiation proc on hit, except instead of making enemies attack each other at random, it makes them attack rhino in particular.

 

Disclaimer: The specific numbers used are for illustrative purposes only. The important thing to note is the proposed mechanics.

For those who see the base numbers and think they sound extremely high, I suggest you look at the wiki's actual numbers on other frames defensive buff skills. Like Chroma (Vex Armor) , Valkyr (Hysteria), trinity (Link&Blessing) and Frost (Snowglobe).

it is often startling to realize that these other defensive measures are several times as sturdy as sturdy as rhino is currently.

Not to mention what Mesa (shatter shield), Zephyrs (turbulence), and Mirages (Eclipse) can do when used properly.

Even Nekros, with his shield of shadows mod achieves a surprisingly high level of resilience.

The curve of who is tough and who is not has seriously shifted.

 

Thank you for reading.

 
Edit: cleaned up the format and explained it a little more clearly.

 

 

I must say that this is the best iron skin idea I saw in any topic. Personally I think its most interesting while not overpowered iron skin buff :).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I must say that this is the best iron skin idea I saw in any topic. Personally I think its most interesting while not overpowered iron skin buff :).

Hey thanks. :-)

It is the end result of dozens of rhino conversations with a lot of smart people.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey thanks. :-)

It is the end result of dozens of rhino conversations with a lot of smart people.

 

Now the question is how to make DE team look at this idea hmm

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If that's how iron skin was you wouldn't need steel fiber or strength mods iron clad charge alone would boost iron skin exponentially. Leaving you free to mod in other ways which is good.

Edited by (PS4)Sinladar

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Now the question is how to make DE team look at this idea hmm

Scott was kind enough to take a look at it. We will see if it sparks his interest.

 

If that's how iron skin was you wouldn't need steel fiber or strength mods iron clad charge alone would boost iron skin exponentially. Leaving you free to mod in other ways which is good.

Indeed! The player would have some solid choices on how to build.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well here is a rework and thoughts of my own:

 

1st ability:

I like changes, defenitly more awesome cuz i want to see enemies fly. Its really annoying that you stop if charge wasnt letthal, enemy falls to the ground and even if you charge again you wont move cuz apparently you cant step on enemies face when hes knocked down and he works as a wall, so i always had to jump over him. But it would also be nice that the enemies you touch while charging fly away towards other enemies in a reasonale range and in a cone area depending from angle you hit them while charging, so if that enemy gets hit by flying enemy it also gets knocked down and recives (50%?) of charge damage (thats all optional).

 

2nd ability:

Yeah, no one really likes it not being changed, we all know its the one that needs changing the most. The problem we all know, its to OP at begining and way to useless in endgame. How i would like it so it scales with enemy numbers and level. I read many comments and replies, they had some interesting rework ideas. Commonly seen is this globe treatment (dmg converted in hp at begining) for which i think is really nice. I would personally completly remove base hitpoints cuz i think thats whats causing this problem. Base hitpoints scale by ability rank and some mods, since its 2nd ability you get it pretty fast to max rank (also same for others) and you dont even need mods to be OP at begining, you can obtain mods soon after too and fuse them up so you have strong iron skin early in game. After that it stops and you have your iron skin at same strengh troughout the whole game and thats way not enough at endgame. So i would like hitpoints to scale by enemies level and numbers. I would just give it (6s?) of globe treatment, (150%?) damage you recive is converted into iron skin hp after duration expires (the hp is affected by rhinos armor value). While your in damage absorbing duration you also draw aggro from enemies (in 20m? radius, aggro radius is centered in you and moves with you) all enemies in that radius focus all they force on you. Also when damage absorbing duration ends you send out a shockwave that only knocks enemies down (radius of shockwave increases with every enemy that hit you while in damage absobtion mode by 5m?, but every next enemy gives you 20%? less shockwawe radius bonus than previous enemy (only 1 range bonus per enemy) this might as well be to complicated for some players and to much work for DE so we could always go with just constant 15m? shockwave range) the aggro ends as soon as damage absorbtion ends. The iron skin should also be recastable at any moment completly reseting ability. That way iron skin would always scale by enemies level and numbers. I also thought that recasting while in damage absorbtion would instantly end it with shockwave and iron skin with hp of absorbed damage, but that would also mean you could do very rapid shockwaves which might seem fun but could get annoying to other players, not so sure thoe. Some players say its shouldnt directly have such damage absorb cuz its a copy of mechanic from frosts globe. I know it kinda is but i find iron skin function best that way, i thought of other ways so it wouldnt be a copy mechanic but they just dont seem to work so well as this does. And so what if it is? Iron skin would still function completly differently from globe despite both being defencive abilities. If I check other abilities in games i find many that are way more similar to each other, so I dont see a reason why iron skin shouldnt have globe treatment. I find shockwave useful cuz once you build up iron skins hp you make all nerby enemies stop shooting at you and thats good so you can let yourself being hit when you need that and shockwave will send an asult on you when you start taking damage to iron skins hp. Some playes sudjested aggro even when not absorbing damage but i dont think thats best idea since it could basicly reduce your durability, some even want it to be a part of roars ability, but that could screw up players that dont have complete control of situation and with less experience. Also iron skin has ferrite hitponts right now. I dont like that i would much rather see ir neutral so it preforms evenly despite enemy damage type. About the agument we could just simpily say (500%? since enemies have significantly high healt comparing to they damage output) of absorbed damage is delt to them whith shockwave.

 

3rd ability:

Yeah longer duration will surely come in handy with what i have in mind. Quite some players claim its to weak with its bonus 50% damage even with team share, when we compare it to other damabe buffs in this game. I would like this ability to be a bit more fun too. What i find really interesting and fun to use is ability that scales by destruction you make. I would give roars base damage increase (of 25%?) but your roar would become stronger and gain aditional (3%?) damage increase for each enemy you knock down or kill (only one damage increase per enemy). So the bigger the army the stronger you become. Should also be recastable which would completly reset it. Many mentioned the need of recasting because if they leave an ally behind they can still buff him later while still having roar on, but here that would also reset the damage increase you built up, so i though if your roar would have smaller range (15m?) but all allies that come in that range of you would get roar buff and keep it till it ends no mater how fat it goes after he obtained it. Maybe makes recasting a bit less useful, but still better than not having that option at all. I added base damage increase so this ability would have atleast some impact on boss fights since you cant really build it up much there if boss doesnt have minions. So this could make rhino a knockingdown frame. I dont know if everyone would like that but i find it really nice, we dont have a frame specialized so much on knockdowns. I wanted this ability to be very combinable with other rhino abilities and theyr knockdowns, but i also think its good to work on enemy kills too, so you wouldnt necesarly have to knock down every enemy before killing that could be annoying and its still undependable from other rhino abilities that way.

 

4th ability:

Stomp is half damage half cc which I dont really support. I would rather go full cc with stomp since we already have enough damage ultras in this game by my opininon, and we all want more stasis. The change is really nice, i think it should be affected by power duration. Since i would remove all damage from this ability i would increases its base duration (to 10s?) and also when you stomp you create a stasis zone, all enemies that are in this zone suffer a knockdown with those same animations that they make now when stomped and recive same speed reduction as they do now. All enemies that enter stasis zone after you cast it wont be knocked down but will recive (60%?) speed reduction. Stomp should be recastable but only 1 stasis zone can be created per rhino player, so if you cast another one the older one instantly disappears, thoe all enemies that recived full effect of speed reduction and were knocked down still remain in stasis till the timmer on old stomp runs out, all enemies that recived reduced speed reduction and werent knocked down have speed reduction instantly removed. If you stomp  already stomped enemy again his stasis timmer resets, multiple stasis zones dont stack in effect, the strongest takes over. Also read this idea about stomping while airborn. I think that would be awesome, while in air and you activate stomp, all your movament is neutralized, you lebetate in air for duration of cast, when cast duration ends you drop verticly towards ground at very hingh speed, hitting ground practicly instantly, that would look just awesome. Also when you stomp some enemies they fall to the ground and enter stasis there which sometimes makes me hard to seperate them from dead bodies, there is this like somke visual effect or something like that comming out of them when stomped but its way to hard to see. So either all enemies are guranteed to stasis in air or some kind of a highlingt on them so its easier to notice whos in stasis would be nice, or even better if stasis enemies would form a horizontal lineup from your point of view (if the ground is linear of course) by lifting into air always at same hight also on same way of fire as not-stomped enemies. Also when there is lots of enemies you need to wait up to 2s for stomp effect to kick in after finishing castin, meanwhile you cant activate any ability at all which i find annoying, stomp should always instantly kick in despite the number of enemies.

 

Now for some visual changes:

Rhino charge and roar seem fine to me by its look so i wouldnt really change anything on them. The iron skin needs a visual update, it may look nice at start but you get sick of shiny gold color prety soon. There were many sudjestions that iron skin would take over color of you energy, but that would still fully cover you up in 1 paterent only and my energy color isnt main color on my rhino. So i would like iron skin seen only while casting and when its depleets. When casting there would pices of iron skin (in color of energy) appear near rhino and a few cm away from him and would the attach on rhino and mach up each other like puzzle and then fade away (all this quicly phased, like 2s and with same sound effect as it has it now) when it depleets the iron skin pices would appear again and fall off from rhino like shattered glass and fade away (also quick phased, like 2s and with sound effect of shattering glass or something familiar) thoe that way some players might forget they have iron skin and unvontedly recast it, so if there would be like an aura sorrunding you during that ability then that would be also nice. A shockwave would also have to get its own animation. Then the stomp. I already mentioned stomped enemy highlights, but a stasis zone will also need its own visual effect. But what i would really like is for the stomp to work like a wave. When you stomp with your leg a forcewave dispatches from your position that travels very fast (reaching abilities range in about 1s) all enemies start theyr falling animations when the forcewave reaches them, also a bigger and more noticable hole in ground where you stomped would be nice, something like the one you see when you check casual rhino in codex. Also what i find annoying is that other abilities can move stasis enemies especially zephyrs tornados and mags pull which i find verry annoying sometimes, so they should be moved by those abilities but with speed reduction that they have.

 

Also a armor buff would be nice in his stats, many players mentioned that. I am fine with that, i dont see really big need but it does seem reasonable especially now that excalibut got this big armor buff. But what I would like is to give aditional bonus to rhino prime over normal rhino (I know it already has 0.1 sprint speed increase but thats the most minor buff if you ask me and its not even rhinos area, hes not really a suppost to be a speed guy as tank i guess) but i find shields really nice too and since armor would make iron skin directly better, that would mean rhino prime would have direct buff to ability over normal rhino and no prime frame has that over normal frame of his version, so 200 shields or 150 healt would be nice, energy doesnt seem hes area either.

 

Also whats bothering me is this "noob frame" reputation it has, what just might help is if his parts would be droped in higher level planet not 1st boss you fight right after vor who you have to kill in prologue mission anyway. So that most new players wont have so quick access to rhino.

 

And thats pretty much it, I wanted to balance rhino over enemy levels and still keep his tanky stile and that hes all-rounder so it handles in same way, just more fun and balanced. Some of my abilities may seem OP but that can be all fixed by changing numbers on ability stats and maybe also locking a specific stat of an ability from progressing to far by making it unaffected by mods.

 

I dont know what you think but i think i did a damn good job for my first post :)

Edited by AnzeBozic

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^It might help to break that into sections and paragraphs
"Topic:
[ spoiler ] Paragraph [ / spoiler ]"
is one way

I want to read through it all but it's a little bit hard/intimidating for me (and probably others). Judging by the length of the post you have a lot of ideas that deserve to be read :)

edit: Also, welcome to the forum community. And man, what a first post :P

Edited by CrimsonNightSky

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^It might help to break that into sections and paragraphs

"Topic:

[ spoiler ] Paragraph [ / spoiler ]"

is one way

I want to read through it all but it's a little bit hard/intimidating for me (and probably others). Judging by the length of the post you have a lot of ideas that deserve to be read :)

edit: Also, welcome to the forum community. And man, what a first post :P

sorry i am new at this xD

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I ran Nuovo (Ceres) solo for a while with the new Rhino changes -- I had to do higher level Grineer to avoid just splattering them with my Charge attack; when they started surviving the knockdown was super handy as you can see here.

 


 

I also really enjoyed the slighly longer hang-time for Stomp -- this proved very useful to catch a breather when I needed to reload or drop some pizzas. 

 

When the Perrin Sequence sent their death squad after I popped a Roar that lasted a nice 45 seconds which was pretty great for cutting the eximus down with my Gamacore.

 

My build wasn't anything crazy, either:

 

gI36VBa.jpg

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I ran Nuovo (Ceres) solo for a while with the new Rhino changes -- I had to do higher level Grineer to avoid just splattering them with my Charge attack; when they started surviving the knockdown was super handy as you can see here.

I also really enjoyed the slighly longer hang-time for Stomp -- this proved very useful to catch a breather when I needed to reload or drop some pizzas.

When the Perrin Sequence sent their death squad after I popped a Roar that lasted a nice 45 seconds which was pretty great for cutting the eximus down with my Gamacore.

My build wasn't anything crazy, either:

gI36VBa.jpg

The ragdoll effect for rhino charge looks cool and all but does it have any real difference from the original? or just the ability to knock people of an edge? pretty sure the rhino charge we have now makes them fall over.

Edited by mishmashmarsh

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The ragdoll effect for rhino charge looks cool and all but goes it have any real difference from the original? or just the ability to knock people of an edge? pretty sure the rhino charge we have now makes them fall over.

yeah like i said i want those enemies to fly >:)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

4: Oh my, reason to build for duration (and not Strength) on a Rhino, who'd've thought? I approve.

As others pointed out, and I overlooked, Making Stomp scale off duration does put Rhino in a similar situation to Nyx, with CC on cooldown making them unable to react to new spawns.

That said, and given the tools (i.e. mods) we currently have available:

As opposed to Nyx, who pretty much doesn't care about Power Strength, Rhino does, making Overextended a non-obvious choice.

On top of that, Narrow Minded, the 'big gun' for duration increase reduces your range.

 

The tl;dr is, Stomp - like World on Fire - becomes affected by all stats, making it a juggling act.

You can no longer optimize for 3 stats with no detriment.

 

On top of which, even with Stomp on cooldown, between his stats and his skillset, Rhino is rather more durable than Nyx to begin with (and he has Charge, where she has Mind Control).

Yes, at levels 80+ that won't matter much.

But we already know that Warframe is unbalanced at that point.

 

 

On the other hand, as with Nyx, this would encourage max range min duration spammage.

And where A) Chaos doesn't deal damage and B) despite being Blast, Stomp does...

:|

Edited by Chroia

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The only skill that needs to be touched will remain untouched?

I have no words...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
My build wasn't anything crazy, either:
 

 

Have you tried out a -Duration Stomp build?   Fleeting+Trans Fort.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

-snip-

there is no issue. you can focus on one or two aspects, and make them extreme, or be balanced, or whatever.

having more options is not a bad thing. "can't min/max with the same Mods that everyone will use" is not a problem.

so what if you can't completely disregard some Mods and get free benefits from Mod Effects?

Corrupted Mods have a positive and a negative. if the negative doesn't do anything meaningful to you, then it's not a Corrupted Mod, it's just a free upgrade.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The ragdoll effect for rhino charge looks cool and all but goes it have any real difference from the original? or just the ability to knock people of an edge? pretty sure the rhino charge we have now makes them fall over.

 

There's a reason for the change... You should read the OP, but since you already skipped it, let me show you:

 

Firstly, Rhino Charge:

 

We are working to added forced ragdolling to every enemy in Rhino's way when he casts Rhino Charge. >>>> We're looking to do-away with the scenario where Rhino Charges into a group of high-level enemies and stops dead in his tracks because his charge wasn't lethal; we're going to be making non-lethal hits send the enemies flying instead! <<<<

 

Edited by AXCrusnik

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The ragdoll effect for rhino charge looks cool and all but goes it have any real difference from the original? or just the ability to knock people of an edge? pretty sure the rhino charge we have now makes them fall over.

 

You're right -- you knock enemies down if you fly past them -- but right now they don't ragdoll which means you can smash head-on into an enemy and stop instead of always pushing them out of the way. You also feel like a pinball in a way because you're bouncing around enemies rather than smashing them out of your way. You'll just have to wait to try it -- the new way feels so much nicer!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is that some kind of testing account, or have you really farmed all that??

 

Full disclosure: the gear is mine (copied from my public cluster main account), but the Primed mods were ranked up to max with cheats for testing on the the dev cluster (I don't use any cheats on public -- it's all legit).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There's a reason for the change... You should read the OP, but since you already skipped it, let me show you:

Looked like "Knockdown" and not "ragdoll"

 

Ragdoll would/should send them flying, which would be much handier than just knocking them down. Not to mention sending them flying would be much more rewarding and entertaining. He's sci-fi space Rhino. They should go flying.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...