Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Excal was a long running project and a probably a sign of things to come for how frames are designed.

The changes to rhino aren't his big rework, they're basically there to try things out with his design and help him out while they work out their vision for Rhino 2.0 (prob some ways down the line). 

Also, any change they make to Iron Skin now would become the bar for future reworks, and if they change it in the future more people are likely to cry nerf. I think they're being conservative with the Skin til they figure out if the current overshield is what they're going for or not.

What's suggested by me/others/devs isn't a rework idea, I know, but a tweak idea to give Rhino some chance of being a viable endgame frame. If this was a rework thread, I'd be really sad about the effort put into it. 

 

Plus the skin skill has to be buffed, even if players like it or not, due to Rhino being a tank/cc mix frame. If the skin fails, then any effort made to keeping him current with the rest of the frames is a fail.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

To follow up the last post-https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/479260-rhino-charge-roar-stomp/page-7#entry5340923

Alright, so let us say that hypothetically you guy's decide that you want Rhino to fullfill a tank role as much as any other frame in warframe currently does. And operating under the idea that you want this to happen even at the end game/trail level verses level 80 enemies...

I'm going to provide one idea of how that might work.

 

Disclaimer: The specific numbers used are for illustrative purposes only. The important thing to note is the proposed mechanics.

 

Rhino's ability to tank hinges on his capacity to initiate (primarily charge), survive incoming damage (base stats and iron skin) and impede enemy action (charge and stomp) by disrupting them. Additionally he has roar to increase the damage output for himself and the team.

The announced upcoming changes are solid, but without a direct change to his defensive capability they will not be enough to make him a tank.

 

For Rhino's stats, I'd raise his base armor to 350. 

For a relatively simple yet directed fix to iron skin. It would work as follows-

 

  • Rhino hardens his skin to create a reinforcing buffer with 500 / 700 / 1000 / 1500 Armor-based hitpoints. While the buffer is active, Rhino becomes immune to damage and Status Effects. Iron Skin will expire when the buffer's hitpoints are depleted.Total amount of Iron Skins hitpoints is affected by Power Strength.
  •  
  • Iron Skin acts as separate layer of protection over Rhino's health and shields. Iron Skin adds 100 percent of Rhino's total armor value including Steel Fiber, the effects of Iron Clad Charge and any other friendly buffs that would increase Warframe armor..
  •  
  • While Iron Skin is active: any attack rhino does on an enemy will inflict the "taunted" status effect on that enemy. This will cause them to focus all of their attention on rhino for 5 seconds. Each enemy affected by the taunt effect will increase the percentage that Iron Skin gains from his total armor by 2/4/8/10 percent (maybe more?). This affect stacks but cannot exceed a 200 (maybe 300, 400?) percent total armor increase. That percentage is effected by power strength mods. The duration of the taunt effect is affected by duration mods. This means that the more enemies rhino has focused on himself the more durable he is. Note: By "Any attack rhino does I am referring to whoever he shoots, hits with melee or effects with one of his powers. Literally any attack that rhino does. This allows him to pick and choose to taunt enemies one by one or in groups as he the need arises.
  •  
  • The taunt effect caused by attacks done while iron skin is active will be immediately disbanded when iron skin breaks or if it is manually deactivated by iron shrapnel. Note that the enemies formally aggro'ed will not necessarily attack a different target, they are simply no longer forced to attack Rhino and will target enemies as usual.

 

Some thoughts on why I went with this design-

My goal is to increase Rhino's capability to be an effective tank as long as he applies thought and effort to do so properly.

Another goal is that Rhino's defensive aspects don't simply protect him alone, but protects allies as well by drawing fire away from them.

This is meant to directly reward rhino's attempts to protect allies by granting him greater durability for doing so.

as well as work re-actively with the situation. The more you need it, the more you get it principal.

Yet another goal is to give rhino a tanking mechanic that isn't just a rehash of one of some other frames power mechanic.

Also, by having Iron Skin scale off of total armor, the players can create team compositions that take advantage of frames who buff armor.

 

Note: For those concerned that the "taunt" on hit mechanic might be hard to code.

Think of it as a lot like a forced radiation proc on hit, except instead of making enemies attack each other at random, it makes them attack rhino in particular.

 

Disclaimer: The specific numbers used are for illustrative purposes only. The important thing to note is the proposed mechanics.

For those who see the base numbers and think they sound extremely high, I suggest you look at the wiki's actual numbers on other frames defensive buff skills. Like Chroma (Vex Armor) , Valkyr (Hysteria), trinity (Link&Blessing) and Frost (Snowglobe).

it is often startling to realize that these other defensive measures are several times as sturdy as sturdy as rhino is currently.

Not to mention what Mesa (shatter shield), Zephyrs (turbulence), and Mirages (Eclipse) can do when used properly.

Even Nekros, with his shield of shadows mod achieves a surprisingly high level of resilience.

The curve of who is tough and who is not has seriously shifted.

 

Thank you for reading.

 
Edit: cleaned up the format and explained it a little more clearly.

 

 

I must say that this is the best iron skin idea I saw in any topic. Personally I think its most interesting while not overpowered iron skin buff :).

Link to post
Share on other sites

I must say that this is the best iron skin idea I saw in any topic. Personally I think its most interesting while not overpowered iron skin buff :).

Hey thanks. :-)

It is the end result of dozens of rhino conversations with a lot of smart people.

Link to post
Share on other sites

If that's how iron skin was you wouldn't need steel fiber or strength mods iron clad charge alone would boost iron skin exponentially. Leaving you free to mod in other ways which is good.

Edited by (PS4)Sinladar
Link to post
Share on other sites

Now the question is how to make DE team look at this idea hmm

Scott was kind enough to take a look at it. We will see if it sparks his interest.

 

If that's how iron skin was you wouldn't need steel fiber or strength mods iron clad charge alone would boost iron skin exponentially. Leaving you free to mod in other ways which is good.

Indeed! The player would have some solid choices on how to build.

Link to post
Share on other sites

^It might help to break that into sections and paragraphs
"Topic:
[ spoiler ] Paragraph [ / spoiler ]"
is one way

I want to read through it all but it's a little bit hard/intimidating for me (and probably others). Judging by the length of the post you have a lot of ideas that deserve to be read :)

edit: Also, welcome to the forum community. And man, what a first post :P

Edited by CrimsonNightSky
Link to post
Share on other sites
I ran Nuovo (Ceres) solo for a while with the new Rhino changes -- I had to do higher level Grineer to avoid just splattering them with my Charge attack; when they started surviving the knockdown was super handy as you can see here.

 


 

I also really enjoyed the slighly longer hang-time for Stomp -- this proved very useful to catch a breather when I needed to reload or drop some pizzas. 

 

When the Perrin Sequence sent their death squad after I popped a Roar that lasted a nice 45 seconds which was pretty great for cutting the eximus down with my Gamacore.

 

My build wasn't anything crazy, either:

 

gI36VBa.jpg

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I ran Nuovo (Ceres) solo for a while with the new Rhino changes -- I had to do higher level Grineer to avoid just splattering them with my Charge attack; when they started surviving the knockdown was super handy as you can see here.

I also really enjoyed the slighly longer hang-time for Stomp -- this proved very useful to catch a breather when I needed to reload or drop some pizzas.

When the Perrin Sequence sent their death squad after I popped a Roar that lasted a nice 45 seconds which was pretty great for cutting the eximus down with my Gamacore.

My build wasn't anything crazy, either:

gI36VBa.jpg

The ragdoll effect for rhino charge looks cool and all but does it have any real difference from the original? or just the ability to knock people of an edge? pretty sure the rhino charge we have now makes them fall over.

Edited by mishmashmarsh
Link to post
Share on other sites

4: Oh my, reason to build for duration (and not Strength) on a Rhino, who'd've thought? I approve.

As others pointed out, and I overlooked, Making Stomp scale off duration does put Rhino in a similar situation to Nyx, with CC on cooldown making them unable to react to new spawns.

That said, and given the tools (i.e. mods) we currently have available:

As opposed to Nyx, who pretty much doesn't care about Power Strength, Rhino does, making Overextended a non-obvious choice.

On top of that, Narrow Minded, the 'big gun' for duration increase reduces your range.

 

The tl;dr is, Stomp - like World on Fire - becomes affected by all stats, making it a juggling act.

You can no longer optimize for 3 stats with no detriment.

 

On top of which, even with Stomp on cooldown, between his stats and his skillset, Rhino is rather more durable than Nyx to begin with (and he has Charge, where she has Mind Control).

Yes, at levels 80+ that won't matter much.

But we already know that Warframe is unbalanced at that point.

 

 

On the other hand, as with Nyx, this would encourage max range min duration spammage.

And where A) Chaos doesn't deal damage and B) despite being Blast, Stomp does...

:|

Edited by Chroia
Link to post
Share on other sites

-snip-

there is no issue. you can focus on one or two aspects, and make them extreme, or be balanced, or whatever.

having more options is not a bad thing. "can't min/max with the same Mods that everyone will use" is not a problem.

so what if you can't completely disregard some Mods and get free benefits from Mod Effects?

Corrupted Mods have a positive and a negative. if the negative doesn't do anything meaningful to you, then it's not a Corrupted Mod, it's just a free upgrade.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The ragdoll effect for rhino charge looks cool and all but goes it have any real difference from the original? or just the ability to knock people of an edge? pretty sure the rhino charge we have now makes them fall over.

 

There's a reason for the change... You should read the OP, but since you already skipped it, let me show you:

 

Firstly, Rhino Charge:

 

We are working to added forced ragdolling to every enemy in Rhino's way when he casts Rhino Charge. >>>> We're looking to do-away with the scenario where Rhino Charges into a group of high-level enemies and stops dead in his tracks because his charge wasn't lethal; we're going to be making non-lethal hits send the enemies flying instead! <<<<

 

Edited by AXCrusnik
Link to post
Share on other sites

The ragdoll effect for rhino charge looks cool and all but goes it have any real difference from the original? or just the ability to knock people of an edge? pretty sure the rhino charge we have now makes them fall over.

 

You're right -- you knock enemies down if you fly past them -- but right now they don't ragdoll which means you can smash head-on into an enemy and stop instead of always pushing them out of the way. You also feel like a pinball in a way because you're bouncing around enemies rather than smashing them out of your way. You'll just have to wait to try it -- the new way feels so much nicer!

Link to post
Share on other sites

Is that some kind of testing account, or have you really farmed all that??

 

Full disclosure: the gear is mine (copied from my public cluster main account), but the Primed mods were ranked up to max with cheats for testing on the the dev cluster (I don't use any cheats on public -- it's all legit).

Link to post
Share on other sites

There's a reason for the change... You should read the OP, but since you already skipped it, let me show you:

Looked like "Knockdown" and not "ragdoll"

 

Ragdoll would/should send them flying, which would be much handier than just knocking them down. Not to mention sending them flying would be much more rewarding and entertaining. He's sci-fi space Rhino. They should go flying.

Link to post
Share on other sites

there is no issue. you can focus on one or two aspects, and make them extreme, or be balanced, or whatever.

having more options is not a bad thing. "can't min/max with the same Mods that everyone will use" is not a problem.

so what if you can't completely disregard some Mods and get free benefits from Mod Effects?

Corrupted Mods have a positive and a negative. if the negative doesn't do anything meaningful to you, then it's not a Corrupted Mod, it's just a free upgrade.

Exactly.

Which is one of the reasons that Loki, Nyx, Mag, Ash, ah screw it any frame that can ignore a stat is more powerful than one that can't.

 

Question is, does 'new' Rhino make saccing duration a straight-up buff? (vs. trying to balance your stats.)

(To elaborate: Improved power while also benefitting from better CC coverage due to the reduced duration allowing recasting, as with Chaos.)

 

=====

 

Edit:

having more options is not a bad thing.

Nope, not at all a bad thing.

But there's 'choice' and there's 'fake choice'.

 

Sure, I can choose to kit my Valkyr out like this before taking on any high level content:

QT3Mery.jpg

Tell me with a straight face that that's a tenth as effective as even a partially min-maxed build?

Or heck, even with just replacing any of those mods with a maxed Vitality.

Edited by Chroia
Link to post
Share on other sites

I was thinking if Iron Skin would diration-based and is invulnerable. But not too long, maybe 10 seconds. Also it could do some bits of cc like bullets ricocheting or stun melee enemies, but as a consequence Rhino has slower movement.

Okay ideas aside. So anyway, will Change still be affected by duration, or will it go with range instead?

Maybe some sort of a mode where energy drains slowly (kinda like excals 4th abil or chromas Effigy) and providing rhino 85% damage reduction?

Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...