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the problem is most tanks in games that draw aggro have decent to good means of mitigating the damage while holding aggro, rhino doesnt, he has relatively low armor compared to non tank frames, probably one of the weakest and worst damage mitigation skills in game, IS.

 

Exactly thats the problem,of all the things rhino needs get fixed iron skin is the most important, and yet its the only ability that DE doesnt want to fix sadly, all other changes are disappointing when its impossible to make tank frame good at its main role of being tank, those changes wont make me play him more, actually  it will make me play him less, since only builds that make him at least slightly durable make most of ablities useless(especially to the team),  since you must sacrifice durability to make iron skin even sligtly useful(and its still to weak in T4 void mission not to mention raids or even nightmare raids)

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Happy with every change except...
 

Iron Skin will be unchanged.  

 

Something needs to change since this ability is just... broken.  Cheap as hell in the starchart and near worthless when facing Raid-level enemies.  It's understandable that Iron Skin is a complicated issue to tackle, but hopefully something happens to it soon.

Edited by Sonitorum
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Has anyone suggested making Iron Skin work something akin to Nullifier bubbles? Obviously without the regeneration (or maybe with? Eh? Eh??), but a slightly modified version of the Nullifier's damage calculation would make Iron Skin useful equally useful at high levels as it is at low levels. A level 30 Nullifier drops just as quickly as a level 100.

It's a complicated algorithm, so look here:

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Nullifier_Crewman

Edited by -CM-Jaypalm
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Thanks for the update,

 

Rhino charge is a much needed change,

 

But Iron Skin also needs to be looked at.  We need, at the very least, to be able to recast it and fill it back up.  And perhaps look at a few seconds of invulnerability on cast.

 

Roar changes sound like a buff, but it would be nice to be able to recast it for those that were not in the radius.  When the duration was shorter, it did not matter if you missed a few party members, you would just get them on the next re-cast, but now that the duration is longer it matters a lot more if you miss someone.

 

Stomp Duration question, is there a minimum duration for those that are using efficiency builds?

Again the problem with using a long duration on stomp is that it cannot be recast until "all the bodies hit the floor".

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Looking at these changes, they seem okay... BUT, why nothing is done to Iron Skin?

 

This is the ability, that needs to change and scale into the late game the most, yet it's left in its poor state. I fail to see any seeds of reason here.

 

How many times the community has begged Iron Skin to be able to benefit from armor? Countless times. Still nothing done.

Now that even Excal has more armor, than Rhino, what is even his place in the game? Chroma has taken his tank place completely. He's not that good in buffing or CC either.

 

Changes seem to be just bandaids for a broken leg.

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Has anyone suggested making Iron Skin work something akin to Nullifier bubbles? Obviously without the regeneration (or maybe with? Eh? Eh??), but a slightly modified version of the Nullifier's damage calculation would make Iron Skin useful equally useful at high levels as it is at low levels. A level 30 Nullifier drops just as quickly as a level 100.

It's a complicated algorithm, so look here:

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Nullifier_Crewman

 

Actually not that bad an idea,

Could strength mods increase the number of hits?

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Interesting idea, but I think there are some potential snags.

One is how it will handle multiple enemies. The min-drain/max-drain might have difficult interactions with 15+ grineer plugging rounds into it.
Also, there are enough people with concerns about the nullifiers in general that basing mechanics off of it might not rub people the right way.

It's still worth thinking about though :)

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Hmm... Seems interesting but I do wonder about few aspects.

First the Rhino Charge sounds nice but its potential will be heavily limited by its distance and thus are of effect.

Iron Skin could use a shorter version of Frost snowglobe mechanic for end game scalability whereby it would be invulnerable for X second and absorb damage for additional protection for Y amount of efficiency. The absorb time (X) could use Duration benefits wheres efficiency (Y) could use Power Strength thus allowing further modifications and thematically sharing consistent modding pattern with other abilities.

Roar chances sound neat but I agree with one suggestion here that it could use and thematically benefit from fear mechanic of sorts but instead of running away, it would just make them stop for a brief amount of time out of pure fear but this alteration could become an augment as the changes here are already very good and neat.

Last but not least we have Rhino Stomp. Now the changes to this ability I am indifferent of, as this can be either buff or a nerf depending of your build itself of course. Then again giving players that choice seems like a healthy gameplay experience decision and its purpise can now be greatly altered and modified depending on the build in use. However it is impossible to objectively assess and predict how the changes to this ability will alter its potential in the battlefield until full implementation. Only time can show us that and make us wiser.

So here are my thoughts and while I do not think that all additions should be considered here, I plea that DE would at least take a second look for the Iron Skin suggestion that I and many other players have suggested here in the community. I really believe that these changes to this ability, when proper values are applied could potentially fix one of the major end game issues of Rhino without becoming over powered or gamebreaking ability within any part of the game.

Edited by BETAOPTICS
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my suggestion is that shorten the casting time on rhino iron skin and roar abilities. also iron skin needs to be changed the most to scale into late game and not to be complete useless at high lvl endless missions.

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[iron Skin]

Also, about Iron Skin, perhaps it could use a mechanic like the current Frost's Snowglobe where there is a set duration (5 seconds?) that allows Iron Skin to absorb damage and use a portion of the damage to increase Iron Skin's integrity. Currently, high level enemies will shred Iron Skin within seconds which makes it very weak on later stages of the game. Granted, any experienced Rhino users will avoid taking damage with Iron Skin, instead using it as a form of CC immunity, but it simply doesn't last long enough at high levels.

 

I don't even like playing as Rhino but that sounds like a very good change for Iron Skin.

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Sounds like Rhino is getting another buff...

Just when I thought that power-creep had put him in a balanced spot another buff comes along...

 

If you mean that being useless in endgame content(T4 surv/def/int, raids) is being balanced then indeed he was "balanced'...>_>

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After this Buff to Rhino Charge and Roar, these abilities will be perfect.

 

but...

 

Rhino deserve a rework in stomp and Iron Skin, not some buff, and a good augment for stomp.

 

After the Iron Skin Augment, Stomp became useless... the augment combo iron Skin -> Roar -> Iron Skin (boom) is x10000²³²²³²³³³ better and have much more fun than actual Stomp.

 

and come on,, what is 399 armor even with steel fiber at max?

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Um?

 

Iron Skin's probably one of the abilities that needs a change the most. Much like direct-damage abilities, after a certain level it becomes a bigger waste of time to cast the ability because enemies can unpeel it just as quickly. It could seriously use something to increase its longevity as content level increases, much like Snow Globe received.

Psh, you're using it wrong then.  I use it only when I'm about to be hit by Bombard rockets or some other knockdown source since he has immunity starting from when he casts the animation.   Rhino has one of the highest total health and shield points of any Warframe and 4th-highest armor rating behind Valkyr, Chroma, and Excalibur/Excalibur Prime.  So use that to tank instead of Iron Skin.

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I like the idea of Stomp not making enemies float in stasis... that just seems to be odd for the stomp, but perhaps it could just pin them in place with super-increased gravity; downing airborn enemies and keeping them under this intense pressure, kind of like they were being pinned under this god-like power of a foot for a while.

 

Still does the same thing (being a CC) but add the benefit of bringing down airborns and would seem to be a bit more thematic and in line with Rhino.

 

RHINO SMASH.

 

if you ask me stomping hard enough to disrubt time seems way less odd than stomping hard enough to increase gravity force

 

also if they were pinned to the ground they could be hard to seperate from dead bodies and not in same line of fire as enemies that didnt get stomped, its way eaiser to aim at them if they are levetating horizonticly with the ground just above it, that also puts them in same line of fire as enemies that didnt get stomped

“In some sense, gravity does not exist; what moves the planets and the stars is the distortion of space and time.” ― Michio Kaku

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One thing that everyone seems to forget about is..

 

Sentinels!

 

Rhino draws aggro with his stomp, after it ends a bombard sends his rockets and "Bye Bye, Beautiful >o<" (© Marco, Nightwish)

 

 

Looked like "Knockdown" and not "ragdoll"

 

Ragdoll would/should send them flying, which would be much handier than just knocking them down. Not to mention sending them flying would be much more rewarding and entertaining. He's sci-fi space Rhino. They should go flying.

Ragdoll isn't about sending into flight, it's about body behavior physics when it's sent into flight.

Edited by Bouldershoulder
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Psh, you're using it wrong then.  I use it only when I'm about to be hit by Bombard rockets or some other knockdown source since he has immunity starting from when he casts the animation.   Rhino has one of the highest total health and shield points of any Warframe and 4th-highest armor rating behind Valkyr, Chroma, and Excalibur/Excalibur Prime.  So use that to tank instead of Iron Skin.

 

Problem is that DE from the beginning described rhino as "tank" frame something that right now it isnt from wikipedia: " tanks redirect enemy attacks or attention toward themselves in order to protect other characters or units. Since this role often requires them to suffer large amounts of damage" and ""Tanking" occurs when the unit is intended to be the one taking damage (typically by being dangerous or detrimental, or using a game mechanic that forces it to be targeted), and secondly, to ensure that they can survive this damage through sheer health points or mitigation."

Edited by Culaio
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So, the only skill on rhino that actually needs to be changed is the only one that won't be touched.

 

If iron skin could be made mitigation instead of negation, it would do wonders for rhino. Iron skin is worthless in high-level areas, and effectively invincibility in low level areas. This makes rhino a bad choice in general, and makes the frame detrimental to newer players--they fail to learn the game because they become some accustomed to immortality as they happily ignore the content that should be teaching them how to play.

 

There is no point in revamping rhino if you're not going to touch iron skin. It is the most-broken, most-counter-productive skill in the entire game, and, worst of all, it's completely worthless to anyone playing any interesting content whatsoever.

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Problem is that DE from the beginning described rhino as "tank" frame something that right now it isnt from wikipedia: " tanks redirect enemy attacks or attention toward themselves in order to protect other characters or units. Since this role often requires them to suffer large amounts of damage" and ""Tanking" occurs when the unit is intended to be the one taking damage (typically by being dangerous or detrimental, or using a game mechanic that forces it to be targeted), and secondly, to ensure that they can survive this damage through sheer health points or mitigation."

Rhino does for the most part have the most health and shields of all frames and iron skin adds (an easy 2000+ more) on top of that (Zephyr being the only one with higher health and the same shields, but she has effectively no armour).  So clearly he does have better "health points/ mitigation" than every other frame.  Thus can still be considered a tank (this doesn't preclude others being tanks as well).

 

The factor that iron skin gets chewed through fast at high levels has little to do with iron skin and everything to do with the damage output of enemies.  A factor that all frames have to deal with, most of the others having little no additional mitigation like Iron skin gives to Rhino.

 

Given Excals increase in armour I'd be surprised if DE doesn't have plans to increase Frost and Rhino's armour with the rest of their updates.

 

I concur though with Llyssa on iron skin in that its disparity between the eairly gameplay to late gameplay function is its real issue.  I know DE tried the damage reduction approach before and many players voiced a huge dislike for that function, though it was bugged at the time and didn't function as intended at all.  Prehaps this kind of aspect once again needs to be looked at for iron skin to allievate that early to late gameplay issues.

Edited by Loswaith
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I dont like how rhino stomp works. Every part of it.  

 

I just cant believe that such a fierce beast would want to "suspend" enemies in stasis.  He really should be more like Valk. Melee oriented. Enemy stacking and aggro. High damage mitigation.

 

Not a CC frame that shoots stuff from afar. That is Vauban's job.

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Rhino does for the most part have the most health and shields of all frames and iron skin adds (an easy 2000+ more) on top of that (Zephyr being the only one with higher health and the same shields, but she has effectively no armour).  So clearly he does have better "health points/ mitigation" than every other frame.  Thus can still be considered a tank (this doesn't preclude others being tanks as well).

 

The factor that iron skin gets chewed through fast at high levels has little to do with iron skin and everything to do with the damage output of enemies.  A factor that all frames have to deal with, most of the others having little no additional mitigation like Iron skin gives to Rhino.

"High defensive base stats"<-is misleading considering that powers often have a much higher impact on a frames true survivability.

"other frames have to deal with high enemy damage and don't even have iron skin"<-referencing a variety of other roles that include things like "glass canon" and "stealth attacker" archetypes has very little relevance to how resilient a tank frame is supposed to be.

 

The question isn't whether rhino can be "considered a tank". The question is whether or not he is performing that role effectively compared to the current median of that role in the game. He has fallen behind. Where other tank frames can retain that same role, rhino's role has to shift to something if he is to stay viable in late game. That is the problem. 

I can tell from your next paragraphs you are aware of that so let us move on to solutions....

 

Given Excals increase in armour I'd be surprised if DE doesn't have plans to increase Frost and Rhino's armour with the rest of their updates.

 

I concur though with Llyssa on iron skin in that its disparity between the eairly gameplay to late gameplay function is its real issue.  I know DE tried the damage reduction approach before and many players voiced a huge dislike for that function, though it was bugged at the time and didn't function as intended at all.  Prehaps this kind of aspect once again needs to be looked at for iron skin to allievate that early to late gameplay issues.

Yes indeed. Some of old ideas can be re-explored now that we have a game with far more polish (comparatively speaking).

Edited by Ronyn
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