Rhino: Charge, Roar & Stomp.

[Culaio]

Rhino does for the most part have the most health and shields of all frames and iron skin adds (an easy 2000+ more) on top of that (Zephyr being the only one with higher health and the same shields, but she has effectively no armour).  So clearly he does have better "health points/ mitigation" than every other frame.  Thus can still be considered a tank (this doesn't preclude others being tanks as well).

 

The factor that iron skin gets chewed through fast at high levels has little to do with iron skin and everything to do with the damage output of enemies.  A factor that all frames have to deal with, most of the others having little no additional mitigation like Iron skin gives to Rhino.

 

Given Excals increase in armour I'd be surprised if DE doesn't have plans to increase Frost and Rhino's armour with the rest of their updates.

 

I concur though with Llyssa on iron skin in that its disparity between the eairly gameplay to late gameplay function is its real issue.  I know DE tried the damage reduction approach before and many players voiced a huge dislike for that function, though it was bugged at the time and didn't function as intended at all.  Prehaps this kind of aspect once again needs to be looked at for iron skin to allievate that early to late gameplay issues.

 

Thats actually not true with proper build its possible to achieve over 95% damage reduction on chroma compared to that rhino is VERY bad tank, its scales very badly to end game, this topic has a LOT of great ideas how to make iron skin more both balanced in early game and end game(without making it OP)

 

We must remember that changes to other abilities of rhino can actually lead to making it even worse tank since right now most people sacrifice power duration for stronger iron skin but since now stomp will be tied to power duration  which potentially means that if you want useful iron skin you must forget about stomp.

[radthezero]

Hopefully that will encourage people to use Charge at all. Also, I like the changes in Roar and Stomp.

[jrkong]

Maybe I'm missing something but I don't think they made Rhino Stomp recastable. If that's the case then the duration is more of a nerf then a buff imo. In endgame situations the extra duration is going to keep you from recasting the ability more if you do a duration build unless you can clear out enemies caught in your Stomp quickly.

 

On the flip side if you go power build you basically sacrifice your ability to stun which is terrible since you lose your ability to revive people.

Edited June 26, 2015 by jrkong

[(PSN)M37h3w3]

I'm certain that some of these topics I'm going to bring up have already been covered or are being covered but I think it bears repeating to show how important they are.

 

-How specifically will Charge work? The update isn't specifically clear. Will I charge a straight distance in the direction I'm pointing for however many meters as determined by Duration? When you say that Charge will knockdown enemies in my way, do they get flung if the damage is non lethal? Or is the flung mechanic only going to affect one enemy at the end of the charge? If so if I end a charge and no enemies are near me, nobody gets flung? If I charge an enemy at the front of the pack and send him flying, will the enemies behind him who get hit by him get the same ragdoll that bows do to enemies? To use it optimally, will I have to target a guy at the back of the pack to get the knockdown on everyone to him and give him the ragdolling?

 

-Iron Skin really needs to be addressed. As content scales it gets niched more and more.

 

-Piercing Roar Augment needs to match the duration of Roar as well.

 

-Rhino's EH also should to be addressed. The entire concept of Rhino says that he takes hits and gives them right back. Yet Excalibur, a much more balanced frame, has higher armor and the same health and only 150 less shielding and a CC just like Rhino. Furthermore, the higher base shield of Rhino is pulling the frame in too many directions. It's trying to be a shield tank and an EH tank and can't succeed at either. The Charge Augment exists but having to mod specifically for that extra armor when other frames get it for free or as an ability just sticks in the craw. The kicker is that for Rhino's supposed tankiness, he suffers a sprint speed reduction.

[fatpig84]

Again we have people screaming "omg rhino why you no tank".

My Nekros, Ember and Nova wish I have something as tanky as Iron Skin.

 

But I digress.

 

Have you people seen how OP the new stomp is ?

Chroma and Valkyr have nothing on Rhino in CC now.

Nothing at all. Except tankiness and some selfish damage buff.

 

Sure you can no longer be ress bot in a pinch.

But with everything being locked down, you let your team mates do the ressing instead.

Edited June 26, 2015 by fatpig84

[f3llyn]

Now all he needs is a huge increase in armor. He should have upwards of 200+ armor by default since he is supposed to be the most heavily armored frame.

[Culaio]

Again we have people screaming "omg rhino why you no tank".

My Nekros, Ember and Nova wish I have something as tanky as Iron Skin.

 

But I digress.

 

Have you people seen how OP the new stomp is ?

Chroma and Valkyr have nothing on Rhino in CC now.

Nothing at all. Except tankiness and some selfish damage buff.

 

Sure you can no longer be ress bot in a pinch.

But with everything being locked down, you let your team mates do the ressing instead.

 

Problem is that rhino is supposed to be tank frame not CC frame, 

 

And to quote what "Ronyn" said in another topic:

"...once we get to high levels we are caught between spamming stomp to try to stun lock everyone we can...

or spamming iron skin because it breaks a lot if one actually tries to use it to body block for allies.

None of that seems like a particularly healthy-for-content style of gameplay.

 

This is why my requests for iron skin redesigned weren't about simply making it stronger.....

but about re-working it into a high resilience/aggro manipulation tool that creates real team utility.

Which is what I believe it was originally intended to be."

[WarGrylls]

...

 

Have you people seen how OP the new stomp is ?

Chroma and Valkyr have nothing on Rhino in CC now.

Nothing at all. Except tankiness and some selfish damage buff.

...

 Valkyr and Chroma never had good CC to begin with at all.

 

They are hi-damage, 1v1 melee types.

 

Just saying that those words seem incorrect to me is all.

 

I still have mixed feeling about the duration w stomp.

 

Update: Did a Nuovo Ceres myself and Rhino is still the same to me. He cannot get to 50+ difficulty enemies. Iron skin needs a buff. If i could have the last twenty in-mission minutes just now erased from my profile record by request, I would gladly ask for it.

Edited June 26, 2015 by WarGrylls

[Culaio]

 Valkyr and Chroma never had good CC to begin with at all.

 

They are hi-damage, 1v1 melee types.

 

Just saying that those words seem incorrect to me is all.

 

I still have mixed feeling about the duration w stomp.

 

Update: Did a Nuovo Ceres myself and Rhino is still the same to me. He cannot get to 50+ difficulty enemies. Iron skin needs a buff. If i could have the last twenty in-mission minutes just now erased from my profile record by request, I would gladly ask for it.

 

Dont you know, if you arent spaming stomp you are play rhino wrong...at least thats what everyone who defends rhino "buff" are saying, personally I had no idea that rhino is supposed to be CC frame... oh wait he isnt supposed to be one >_>, from the beginning DE described him as tank so please DE let him do his role right.

[_Rue_]

Maybe it'd better to just make stomp damage and cc affect all the enemies that enter the AOE since it does lock you down.

 

Instead of 1 big hit from the secondary damage, we'll distribute it in ticks (per second) that also CCs enemies that enters that AOE.

 

EDIT:

Hmmm... Whatever the original intentions for rhino were, the new kit seems to disagree.

Edited June 26, 2015 by _Rue_

[Loswaith]

Thats actually not true with proper build its possible to achieve over 95% damage reduction on chroma compared to that rhino is VERY bad tank, its scales very badly to end game, this topic has a LOT of great ideas how to make iron skin more both balanced in early game and end game(without making it OP)

Sure Chroma can get 95% damage reduction, but you have to build up to that. It isn't something you can keep as a constant and sure isn't something you can achieve without a lot of effort to have the specific mods to do so.

 

Rhino on the other hand, can be 100% immune to all damage and conditions (Chroma is subject to all conditions still) with very little work for 97.5% of the game. Even then Chroma has very limited other options with that defence while Rhino has a number of other options (most of which got made better).

 

Obviously Rhino cant tank when all frames are being one shot by enemies (no frames without complete immunity can at that point), expecting him to be so will simply make him vastly over powered, when he is already clearly well above average as it stands.

[Culaio]

Sure Chroma can get 95% damage reduction, but you have to build up to that. It isn't something you can keep as a constant and sure isn't something you can achieve without a lot of effort to have the specific mods to do so.

 

Rhino on the other hand, can be 100% immune to all damage and conditions (Chroma is subject to all conditions still) with very little work for 97.5% of the game. Even then Chroma has very limited other options with that defence while Rhino has a number of other options (most of which got made better).

 

Obviously Rhino cant tank when all frames are being one shot by enemies (no frames without complete immunity can at that point), expecting him to be so will simply make him vastly over powered, when he is already clearly well above average as it stands.

 

Well at least you can build chroma in such way, rhino with tank build on the other hand gets killed extremly easily against lvl 50+ enemies(enemies cut through like it ist there, and lets not forget about situation where you are left with only '1' point of iron skin, you cant recast it and the moment you lose it you die)  , and such build makes stomp duration almost non-existant, Buffing rhino in such way that only way to survive is to continously spam 4 ability is bad design.

 

 

Maybe it'd better to just make stomp damage and cc affect all the enemies that enter the AOE since it does lock you down.

 

Instead of 1 big hit from the secondary damage, we'll distribute it in ticks (per second) that also CCs enemies that enters that AOE.

 

EDIT:

Hmmm... Whatever the original intentions for rhino were, the new kit seems to disagree.

 

 

People who wanted more CC frames in game must be happy with change but I know I wont be using rhino anymore, for people who want to play him as intended(tank) newest change is a nerf since with tank build you will continously sparm 4 ability every few seconds and I dont find spaming same ability over and over again enjoyable.

Edited June 26, 2015 by Culaio

[Ronyn]

 

 

Sure Chroma can get 95% damage reduction, but you have to build up to that. It isn't something you can keep as a constant and sure isn't something you can achieve without a lot of effort to have the specific mods to do so.

I disagree entirely.

Obviously very few powers work to either full potential without modding your frame right but keeping Vex armor at max capacity is easy once you know which elements to work with for each purpose.

if you want to make sure you can keep the DR max from Vex armor at all times use Electric elemental ward.

Since it gives you shields, you can literally hit vex armor, then hit elemental ward, and it will quickly jump to in a couple seconds max as long as you're under fire. Also, since those electricity counter attacks that damage and stun enemies are not affected by range mods you can even slot narrow minded for a ton more duration and still shock people over 20 meters away. Added along with power mods you can have a super tough frame consistently.

FYI-I use this build to take on 20 level 80+ grineer heavy gunners melee style in the simulacrum just for fun.

 

 

Rhino on the other hand, can be 100% immune to all damage and conditions (Chroma is subject to all conditions still) with very little work for 97.5% of the game. Even then Chroma has very limited other options with that defence while Rhino has a number of other options (most of which got made better).

Actually Rhino is not 100 percent immune to status and conditions. Some (like blast procs, eximus drain, certain ground slows) still afect him. But he is immune to most while iron skin lasts....

 

Chroma's other defensive options are not "limited". With the lightning build is a beast in melee range OR...

he can swap to a high efficiency/low duration Effigy focused build where he hangs back and lets that tank for him. That thing draws aggro so it can literally hold the attention of entire enemy groups if positioned properly. I usually match that with fire so I can heal the few hits that get to me.

And even help the team out with a few heals here and there.

 

Obviously Rhino cant tank when all frames are being one shot by enemies (no frames without complete immunity can at that point), expecting him to be so will simply make him vastly over powered, when he is already clearly well above average as it stands.

Yet Chroma Can tank at that level while dishing out several times more weapon damage. Valkyr can while being mostly invulnerable. Trinity can while being able to heal the entire team.It would not be overpowered for rhino to be able to as well just cause he can CC.

 

Also..where Rhino comes in on the "average" isn't the point. His capability to tank, should be compared to other TANK's.

Edited June 26, 2015 by Ronyn

[WarGrylls]

Dont you know, if you arent spaming stomp you are play rhino wrong...at least thats what everyone who defends rhino "buff" are saying, personally I had no idea that rhino is supposed to be CC frame... oh wait he isnt supposed to be one >_>, from the beginning DE described him as tank so please DE let him do his role right.

Oh riiiight! I should be going for max efficiency burning 25 energy a stomp every 4 seconds forever in a survival mission using the best build NA ( http://goo.gl/iV76ZG ) ... where I need spawns to keep walking to my gun, saying "aahh", mouths open wise, hoping that they are eating black dyed marshmallows... but I get your sarcasm though.

 

Rhino is Ember now and is no longer worth the time. He's been made a joke, period, and I don't want to admit that about my favorite warframe after so long a time trying to make him viable. Before the tweaks, a max range stomp would help, but now IRON SKIN and now RHINO STOMP either fall flat like dominos, or isn't effective enough to level 40+ enemies. Keep Mag Prime in the void rotations and vault Rhino Prime, DE. No one should burn platinum/time/money on him at all now, minus mastery points fodder, so please save them the suffering at least... no that's a bit harsh to say, I'm sorry. Rework Rhino, Ember, Frost, Volt, and Nekros as soon as able to please, DE.

Edited June 26, 2015 by WarGrylls

[OriKlein]

[...]

 

We're aiming to have this in your hands for feedback this week on PC!

 

Excellent. Generally it sounds great. Buffs always sound great, who doesn't love them, right?

I am actually going to be the devil's advocate and say this sounds a bit overpowered. I presume that the reason Roar wasn't given a lengthy duration to begin with is because Scott wished to avoid easy overlapping power-pump-up with little downside.

And argue that Iron Skin may very well be put under the knife as well. It is quite lacking/dysfunctional as it stands; great for low levels, useless after mid level (or if only to change the ferrite armour onto alloy armour and/or apply Steel Fiber onto it).

Perhaps Roar should become the 4th power with an additional AOE stun/damage?

I suppose we'll see within the week.

Thanks for the heads-up and keep up the good work.

Best Regards,