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[DE]Rebecca

Rhino: Charge, Roar & Stomp.

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Rhino Charge: It's almost perfect~

 

Roar: I still feel like more can be done with this ability instead of being just a simple buff, it could also be a debuff or it could be merged with his Rhino Stomp.

 

Rhino Stomp: I feel like his decreased duration for stasis should also decrease his cool down time so it can be reused again quickly instead of the long wait in between.

 

TL;DR I really hope the actual rework for him will be even better than Excalibur's. o -o

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If Iron skin (without the use of an augment), Roar and Rhino stomp were ALL recast-able then I would be happy regardless of how the powers are tweaked.

This basically^

 

Roar should also deal damage, push back, and knock down enemies~

Also when is this coming?!

 

I wanna test this out! :O

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Out of all the frames in the game Rhino came first to mind when you were trying to find warframe abilities to buff?

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Out of all the frames in the game Rhino came first to mind when you were trying to find warframe abilities to buff?

Yes. Cause usually after Excalibur Rhino comes to mind. o -o

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Charge:

This means the charge will become very similar to Hydroid's Tidal Surge, but with a lower Striking Range (range affecting enemies during charge). Not saying it's a bad thing. Tidal Surge is actually one of the main reasons I like the frame. 

But maybe allow Rhino Charge to be orientable vertically as well? Just like the Slash Dash? So if you aim up, you go up! Meaning it would become something in between the Slash Dash and Tidal Surge. It won't have the affecting/striking range, during the dash, of the Tidal Surge and it won't have the Damage of Slash Dash. So, it's not like it's going to be unbalanced.

 

 

Roar:

More duration is great indeed!

But as some already pointed out, making the Piercing Roar an innate property or at least matching the duration of the Piercing Roar with the ability would do really well for the ability.

 

 

Stomp:

I've got mixed feelings about this.

While I think it's great that we get the option to tweak its duration as we please, it will now have an immense impact on the skill when going for the extreme values.

 

For instance, those building around Roar, would aim for a very high duration build. And high duration build on Stomp is not that great, because you can't recast untill all the enemies are dead or the duration has ran out. Meaning that you won't be able to CC new spawns for a long time.

On the other hand, when you're building for efficiency, you now have to keep an eye on the duration, meaning "wasting" the precious slots, just so you can have that extra CC from the Stomp.

 

Here is what I'd suggest: 

1. Remove the cooldown

2. Allow Rhino to recast the skill even if the duration isn't over yet. However, if you recast before the duration has ended, then the enemies that were still affected by the Stomp will have the debuff cancelled on them. 

 

A scenario for the 2nd suggestion: 

There are 5 charges, you use Stomp and all 5 Chargers start floating.

You kill 4 Chargers but wasn't able to kill the 5th because he's somewhere in a different room.

And then you see an Eximus Mutalist charging your way. You use Stomp while the previous Stomp hasn't ended yet.

The 5th Charger that was afloat in the next room falls to the ground and the Eximus unit starts floating instead.

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This here is the build I am forced to use to make Rhino a viable tank endgame and deal enough damage with his Stomp and as a result his Charge becomes useless.

 

bqmEdM2.jpg

 

Give it a try.

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Charge:
This means the charge will become very similar to Hydroid's Tidal Surge, but with a lower Striking Range (range affecting enemies during charge). Not saying it's a bad thing. Tidal Surge is actually one of the main reasons I like the frame. 
But maybe allow Rhino Charge to be orientable vertically as well? Just like the Slash Dash? So if you aim up, you go up! Meaning it would become something in between the Slash Dash and Tidal Surge. It won't have the affecting/striking range, during the dash, of the Tidal Surge and it won't have the Damage of Slash Dash. So, it's not like it's going to be unbalanced.
 
 
Roar:
More duration is great indeed!
But as some already pointed out, making the Piercing Roar an innate property or at least matching the duration of the Piercing Roar with the ability would do really well for the ability.
 
 
Stomp:
I've got mixed feelings about this.
While I think it's great that we get the option to tweak its duration as we please, it will now have an immense impact on the skill when going for the extreme values.
 
For instance, those building around Roar, would aim for a very high duration build. And high duration build on Stomp is not that great, because you can't recast untill all the enemies are dead or the duration has ran out. Meaning that you won't be able to CC new spawns for a long time.
On the other hand, when you're building for efficiency, you now have to keep an eye on the duration, meaning "wasting" the precious slots, just so you can have that extra CC from the Stomp.
 
Here is what I'd suggest:
1. Remove the cooldown
2. Allow Rhino to recast the skill even if the duration isn't over yet. However, if you recast before the duration has ended, then the enemies that were still affected by the Stomp will have the debuff cancelled on them. 
 
A scenario for the 2nd suggestion: 
There are 5 charges, you use Stomp and all 5 Chargers start floating.
You kill 4 Chargers but wasn't able to kill the 5th because he's somewhere in a different room.
And then you see an Eximus Mutalist charging your way. You use Stomp while the previous Stomp hasn't ended yet.
The 5th Charger that was afloat in the next room falls to the ground and the Eximus unit starts floating instead.

 

Make his Rhino Charge unaffected by duration and instead be affected by power range.

Roar, his actual best move, buffs would be quite welcome.

That's not true as other frames do the same thing that his Roar does and better too.

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What about recasting Stomp before the duration is over?

 

Please consult people who actually play Rhino on highlevels

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These are great changes, DE.

Especially that Roar change. Delicious.

 

As others have expressed, Iron Skin still feels a bit underwhelming.

I think an easy fix would be this:

 

- Iron Skin is no longer an invisible invincibility extra shield

- Iron Skin is now a massive armor buff, like say 450 armor which can be increased with STRENGTH mods

- Iron Skin goes back to being duration based with a 3 minute duration

- Iron Skin now also gives nearby teammates a similar (not exactly the same. 200?) armor buff on the initial cast

- Iron Skin still prevents procs from occuring to Rhino

- Visuals can stay the same

 

If it feels TOO strong you can always tack on a debuff like: rhino moves 20% slower under the effects of iron skin

This will make Rhino Charge even more important since slower Rhinos who have Iron Skin up and don't use Rush can zip about in straight lines with Charge.

 

 

On that note.

It'd be nice if, upon slamming into a wall, Charge caused some sort of knockdown aoe. Bits of shrapnel and smoke flying out from where Rhino cratered himself. For no reason really outside of that it'd look cool and would be sort of helpful if you smack into map geometry.

 

 

That said, these suggestions aside, these are GREAT buffs to Rhino.

I'm particularly glad they are buffs to his UTILITY and not his power.

Alot of silly people have been wanting Roar and Stomp to do more damage.

But damage was never the problem with those abilities.

They may not be as ridiculous strong as Nova or Mirage's options, but they are effective and work fine.

It was just their durations that made the abilities feel a bit....janky.

 

So on that note: Thank you for buffing Rhino!

 

 

Excalibur. Frost. Rhino. All the middling frames getting buffs.

 

I hope Ember, Oberon, and Nekros are next up. Ember especially. Poor gal.

Edited by Kruglov
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Make his Rhino Charge unaffected by duration and instead be affected by power range.

 

That would indeed help the Charge in case people build around Strenght (for Iron Skin) and Efficiency (for Stomp CC).

Another option is for the Charge distance to be affected by the Strength instead.

 

Since the current Charge distance depends on the speed (48m/s by default) and the duration (0.35 sec by default). It won't be too strange to switch things up and instead of the mods affecting the duration, they affect the speed instead. In which case the mods affecting the distance would be Strength mods.

 

It would go well with the rest of the skills as well, since all skills benefit from Strength.

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How about enabling recast during Stomps? Or create an Augment Mod that allows Rhino's stomp slamming affected enemies onto the ground?

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Thank you for addressing this really quick guys.

In the Radial-blinding light of a widely discussed and promoted Excalibur Rework, a lot of attention has immediately moved forward to Frost and our hopes about what his rework will bring. However - in the immediate future - there are some changes coming to Rhino based on a lot of conversations about where he fits into things overall. We had some time to address what we could earlier today with Rhino - some relatively small items that still create a more formidable Rhino as a whole.

 

As always - everything is subject to change. The following ability tweaks are based on our combined experiences with Rhino, and if there's anything you'd like to bring up in relation to the following, this thread is the spot for it!

Generally good changes. 

 

Secondly, Iron Skin will be unchanged.  

Just so I'm absolutely clear. Are you saying that-

1: Iron Skin is not being changed at this time but is still under review...

or 

2: Iron skin has been reviewed and the decision is that it will remain unchanged?

 

To get down to it a clear statement needs to be made here about where that is that rhino is supposed to fit in now.

The question is:

1: Is it your guys intention that he is "defense and offense....an almost unstoppable tank"..meaning he can actively survive heavy incoming fire at high levels in some way similar to how Valkyr (invulnerable), Chroma (literally gets stronger when he gets hit) and trinity (bounces damage back at enemies) currently can.

OR

2: Is it your guys intention that he is "a moderately sturdy frame who focuses on buffs and CC'sing the room"..meaning that he is not supposed to draw fire or withstand it but avoid it as much as any non, resilience based frame does.

 

If you want rhino to be the tank he is described as (my preference) he will need some real work on his base stats and the mechanics of iron skin.

If you want something else for rhino (I'd feel saddened but that's life) then we need a whole new video and flavor text.

Because new players are generally going to think he is meant to be some sort of tank, will feel like it's true, then hit end game and find out that he really doesn't fulfill that role as well as the three other frames I mentioned before.

 

I'd really like some clarity on this.

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What about recasting Stomp before the duration is over?

 

Please consult people who actually play Rhino on highlevels

 

Yes please do this DE^

 

Otherwise we will get really bad suggestions like the post below

vvvvvv 

 

These are great changes, DE.

Especially that Roar change. Delicious.

 

As others have expressed, Iron Skin still feels a bit underwhelming.

I think an easy fix would be this:

 

- Iron Skin is no longer an invisible invincibility extra shield

- Iron Skin is now a massive armor buff, like say 450 armor which can be increased with STRENGTH mods

- Iron Skin goes back to being duration based with a 3 minute duration

- Iron Skin now also gives nearby teammates a similar (not exactly the same. 200?) armor buff on the initial cast

- Iron Skin still prevents procs from occuring to Rhino

- Visuals can stay the same

 

If it feels TOO strong you can always tack on a debuff like: rhino moves 20% slower under the effects of iron skin

This will make Rhino Charge even more important since slower Rhinos who have Iron Skin up and don't use Rush can zip about in straight lines with Charge.

 

 

On that note.

It'd be nice if, upon slamming into a wall, Charge caused some sort of knockdown aoe. Bits of shrapnel and smoke flying out from where Rhino cratered himself. For no reason really outside of that it'd look cool and would be sort of helpful if you smack into map geometry.

 

 

That said, these suggestions aside, these are GREAT buffs to Rhino.

I'm particularly glad they are buffs to his UTILITY and not his power.

Alot of silly people have been wanting Roar and Stomp to do more damage.

But damage was never the problem with those abilities.

They may not be as ridiculous strong as Nova or Mirage's options, but they are effective and work fine.

It was just their durations that made the abilities feel a bit....janky.

 

So on that note: Thank you for buffing Rhino!

 

 

Excalibur. Frost. Rhino. All the middling frames getting buffs.

 

I hope Ember, Oberon, and Nekros are next up. Ember especially. Poor gal.

No. This is an absolute no. 

 

Right now I like the way Iron Skin works but I prefer it to scale somehow into end game as well.

 

 

That would indeed help the Charge in case people build around Strenght (for Iron Skin) and Efficiency (for Stomp CC).

Another option is for the Charge distance to be affected by the Strength instead.

 

Since the current Charge distance depends on the speed (48m/s by default) and the duration (0.35 sec by default). It won't be too strange to switch things up and instead of the mods affecting the duration, they affect the speed instead. In which case the mods affecting the distance would be Strength mods.

 

It would go well with the rest of the skills as well, since all skills benefit from Strength.

Exactly! I am glad there are other actual Rhino players who understand how to build Rhino for end game!

Edited by Zarozian
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Jesus, I thought the new duration Rhino buff is OP enough, but it seems people are requesting for him to be even more OP. Like all those requesting a buff to Iron Skin. The only suggestion I liked for Iron Skin was that it takes damage after shields are depleted.

Edited by SicSlaver

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Rebecca,

 

Is this the extent of the changes we can expect to see with Rhino?

 

Or are these merely "Quality of Life" adjustments players can enjoy until his re-work is completed?

 

If these are quality of life adjustments, can we expect that Rhino will be seeing more iteration following Frost's update/re-work?             

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Rebecca,

 

Is this the extent of the changes we can expect to see with Rhino?

 

Or are these merely "Quality of Life" adjustments players can enjoy until his re-work is completed?

 

If these are quality of life adjustments, can we expect that Rhino will be seeing more iteration following Frost's update/re-work?             

Yes I am hoping for this too.

 

A true rework for Rhino after Frost gets his.

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In my opinion: Iron skin currently feels like it is in an oddball place. It is too powerful at lower levels, and burns off very quickly at later levels. Instead of a hp amount for x amount of energy: maybe a toggle that drains energy while active that gives the player a damage resistance percentage.

 

For example (numbers are just for show!): 75% damage resist for 5 energy per second. Maybe even throw in "increased threat towards enemies" like Nyx's absorb or Loki's decoy. This way Iron skin isn't as powerful in lower level content, and stays useful in later content.

Edited by Regulus1990
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Slow Rhino down, and increase his tankiness. That's where he should fit. As for Iron Skin, it should draw from armor, and just make it scale better with the level of the Warframe. Maybe even try something even more radical, and have it boosted by Forma after level 30. Because Iron Skin is wholly ineffective at high levels. Having a capped off, but clear ability to boost it's performance beyond level 30 (let's say, up to five Forma, for example purposes) would allow for the frame to be effective beyond the set cap, in such a way that, with Forma, it can possibly be improved to be effective against higher level enemies. As much as Exalted Blade is Excalibur's signature ability, Iron Skin needs to be Rhino's signature ability, as Rhino needs to be the tank frame.

 

So, again, Slow. Rhino. Down. Reduce his speed. Increase his health and armor greatly to offset that speed reduction. Buff Iron Skin, making it scale better with warframe level (even err on the side of making it less effective at lower warframe levels and more effective at warframe level 30).

 

Yeah, I know, some people want the skinned, stripped-bare, unarmored Valkyr to be a tanky frame with the most armor. That's ridiculous. Just look at the frame. Valkyr can have increased shields, increased health, and greatly increased stamina (the most in the game, imo, by far. Like, a crazy amount of stamina - until stamina goes, that is). Maybe increased speed as well. But Valkyr needs some survivability other than armor.

 

Either way, yeah. One more time. Reduce his speed significantly (should be the slowest frame in the game with Max Rush and without Arcane Vanguard, and only as fast as Excalibur with Arcane Vanguard). Increase his health and armor significantly. Buff Iron Skin, and scale it better with the warframe level, to the point where the higher the warframe level, the more effective the ability is. Make Iron Skin his fourth ability, and establish Rhino as the tank frame.

Edited by AntoineFlemming

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I think Rhino's charge should have a sprinting animation not just a ...thrust forward. And It'd be really awesome if you gain speed the long the ability is used and the more enemies are trampled but with this the ability becomes much harder to control..giving you that rage feel. ( now it is still a first ability so this cant be done exactly like that.. but something along the lines of it would be nice.)

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I like the proposed ideas, especially the 1st.  However, having a Roar last almost a minute...seems a bit excessive, regardless of the benefits.

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I take it the reason Iron Skin was unchanged is that you couldn't come up with a quick and easy way of tweaking it? Is it reserved for the rework then?

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So I'm thinking when you rhino stomp he elbow drops instead.

Also is anyone thinking that they should give potential new powers for the reworks as well.

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To follow up the last post-https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/479260-rhino-charge-roar-stomp/page-7#entry5340923



 if there's anything you'd like to bring up in relation to the following, this thread is the spot for it!

Alright, so let us say that hypothetically you guy's decide that you want Rhino to fullfill a tank role as much as any other frame in warframe currently does. And operating under the idea that you want this to happen even at the end game/trail level verses level 80 enemies...

I'm going to provide one idea of how that might work.

 

Disclaimer: The specific numbers used are for illustrative purposes only. The important thing to note is the proposed mechanics.

 

Rhino's ability to tank hinges on his capacity to initiate (primarily charge), survive incoming damage (base stats and iron skin) and impede enemy action (charge and stomp) by disrupting them. Additionally he has roar to increase the damage output for himself and the team.

The announced upcoming changes are solid, but without a direct change to his defensive capability they will not be enough to make him a tank.

 

For Rhino's stats, I'd raise his base armor to 350. 

For a relatively simple yet directed fix to iron skin. It would work as follows-

 

  • Rhino hardens his skin to create a reinforcing buffer with 500 / 700 / 1000 / 1500 Armor-based hitpoints. While the buffer is active, Rhino becomes immune to damage and Status Effects. Iron Skin will expire when the buffer's hitpoints are depleted.Total amount of Iron Skins hitpoints is affected by Power Strength.
  •  
  • Iron Skin acts as separate layer of protection over Rhino's health and shields. Iron Skin adds 100 percent of Rhino's total armor value including Steel Fiber, the effects of Iron Clad Charge and any other friendly buffs that would increase Warframe armor..
  •  
  • While Iron Skin is active: any attack rhino does on an enemy will inflict the "taunted" status effect on that enemy. This will cause them to focus all of their attention on rhino for 5 seconds. Each enemy affected by the taunt effect will increase the percentage that Iron Skin gains from his total armor by 2/4/8/10 percent (maybe more?). This affect stacks but cannot exceed a 200 (maybe 300, 400?) percent total armor increase. That percentage is effected by power strength mods. The duration of the taunt effect is affected by duration mods. This means that the more enemies rhino has focused on himself the more durable he is. Note: By "Any attack rhino does I am referring to whoever he shoots, hits with melee or effects with one of his powers. Literally any attack that rhino does. This allows him to pick and choose to taunt enemies one by one or in groups as he the need arises.
  •  
  • The taunt effect caused by attacks done while iron skin is active will be immediately disbanded when iron skin breaks or if it is manually deactivated by iron shrapnel. Note that the enemies formally aggro'ed will not necessarily attack a different target, they are simply no longer forced to attack Rhino and will target enemies as usual.

 

Some thoughts on why I went with this design-

My goal is to increase Rhino's capability to be an effective tank as long as he applies thought and effort to do so properly.

Another goal is that Rhino's defensive aspects don't simply protect him alone, but protects allies as well by drawing fire away from them.

This is meant to directly reward rhino's attempts to protect allies by granting him greater durability for doing so.

as well as work re-actively with the situation. The more you need it, the more you get it principal.

Yet another goal is to give rhino a tanking mechanic that isn't just a rehash of one of some other frames power mechanic.

Also, by having Iron Skin scale off of total armor, the players can create team compositions that take advantage of frames who buff armor.

 

Note: For those concerned that the "taunt" on hit mechanic might be hard to code.

Think of it as a lot like a forced radiation proc on hit, except instead of making enemies attack each other at random, it makes them attack rhino in particular.

 

Disclaimer: The specific numbers used are for illustrative purposes only. The important thing to note is the proposed mechanics.

For those who see the base numbers and think they sound extremely high, I suggest you look at the wiki's actual numbers on other frames defensive buff skills. Like Chroma (Vex Armor) , Valkyr (Hysteria), trinity (Link&Blessing) and Frost (Snowglobe).

it is often startling to realize that these other defensive measures are several times as sturdy as sturdy as rhino is currently.

Not to mention what Mesa (shatter shield), Zephyrs (turbulence), and Mirages (Eclipse) can do when used properly.

Even Nekros, with his shield of shadows mod achieves a surprisingly high level of resilience.

The curve of who is tough and who is not has seriously shifted.

 

Thank you for reading.

 
Edit: cleaned up the format and explained it a little more clearly.
Edited by Ronyn
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