Rhino: Charge, Roar & Stomp.

[KirukaChan]

The one change I'd like to see for Iron Skin is a mechanic similar to Frost's Snow Globe, with brief invincibility where it soaks up hits for extra HP.

[Leavith]

So to put my opinion since i begin i always saw the RHino as tank but he cannot tank

Iron charge with the rework ur doing is good

Now iron skin does need a rework as well although t you say he doesn't it doesn't scale well with high level enemies and i would suggest frost abilities globe that absorb damage but whatever you can live

Now for Roar

not only should it buff but i believe it should also Attract the agroo i mean your roaring it should also attract the enemy fire and attention

And for rhino stomp stasis is cool and all but i think it should blast procs 1st then stasis then do another wave that impact procs that follow to rag doll

[Jadous]

this is definitely a good start, but please consider this thread for a full revamp because iron skin is sorely lacking as a defensive power

I agree iron skin needs a rework or a buff because later on it becomes one of the most useless skills that will instantly break

[Jadous]

These changes sound nice and all but there are some issues, if the duration on Roar is raised this will severely damage the usefulness of his Augment for it which is already suffering, if this change is going to be made then Roar needs to be either recastable or his augment needs to be changed.

Iron Skin needs to be reviewed, it is just awful, the scaling for it is too out of balance, it's far too strong early game and becomes useless endgame no matter how you mod towards it, it doesn't use your shields, it doesn't use your armor, it doesn't have any special properties beyond stagger/stun immunity, builds no aggro, once Rhino Charge is buffed it will be his most useless power endgame-wise.

I understand your hesitance in making any changes to IS considering all the work that's gone into balancing it's past iterations, there are too many frames that tank better than Rhino without using energy and they easily surpass him when they do.

and this

my thoughts exactly

[Grimlar]

Charge sounds good, I personally like the ragdoll/straight line approach rather than the ping pong ball of Excalibur. Makes the Rhino seem a little different and a bit more weighty.

 

For Roar, how about an RNG chance to Annoy or Terrify? Annoyed enemies will leave their current target to focus on the Rhino, Terrified enemies, wll leave their current target and try to run away from the Rhino. Both will be concentrating on other things so they will take more damage from everyone.

 

Stomp. I dont mind the duration of the effect as it is, I also dont mind that enemies running in arent affected by it. I do however have a problem with how long I have to wait before I can reactivate it. I would like to see it change to a simple activation time for the effect, (nice graphical ripples spreading from the Rhino, knocking/stunning npc's as they go,) brief cooldown and the Rhino free to activate it again almost immediately. (To help reduce the possibility of spamming, just implement a resistance to a second stomp for any npc that survives the first.)

 

As for Iron Skin, I think you need to change how it works, at the moment its too all or nothing. Too strong at low levels and too weak at high levels. So I think the 'Invulnerability,' has to go.

 

So I would make Iron Skin duration based. Start with a few seconds of invulnerability at the start of the skill and then adjust the Rhinos base armour rating based on the average amount of damage he's taken in the previous few seconds. (Hence the need for the invulnerable period, to set the baseline.)  Higher ranks of Iron skin increase the % of armour boost and types of status effects ignored. (Maybe at the highest rank reflect a small percentage of incoming damage back to nearby enemies, ie bullets/energy bouncing off.) Obviously affected by Duration and Strength mods, and possibly the reflected damage by strength/range mods. Would match up better with Roar and Stomp too.

 

This would mean that Iron Skin (balanced properly) would automatically scale according to the amount of damage that the enemies could put out. Less protection against damage and status effects from lower level enemies, more at higher levels/bosses.

 

Also, a slight increase to Rhinos base armour so that he isnt behind nominally weaker frames. Not better, just not weaker, let his skills provide the difference.

[Angus_JTV]

 

As for Iron Skin, I think you need to change how it works, at the moment its too all or nothing. Too strong at low levels and too weak at high levels. So I think the 'Invulnerability,' has to go.

 

So I would make Iron Skin duration based. Start with a few seconds of invulnerability at the start of the skill and then adjust the Rhinos base armour rating based on the average amount of damage he's taken in the previous few seconds. (Hence the need for the invulnerable period, to set the baseline.)  Higher ranks of Iron skin increase the % of armour boost and types of status effects ignored. (Maybe at the highest rank reflect a small percentage of incoming damage back to nearby enemies, ie bullets/energy bouncing off.) Obviously affected by Duration and Strength mods, and possibly the reflected damage by strength/range mods. Would match up better with Roar and Stomp too.

 

This would mean that Iron Skin (balanced properly) would automatically scale according to the amount of damage that the enemies could put out. Less protection against damage and status effects from lower level enemies, more at higher levels/bosses.

 

Also, a slight increase to Rhinos base armour so that he isnt behind nominally weaker frames. Not better, just not weaker, let his skills provide the difference.

 

 

This one.

 

Also i think any changes or buffs on Charge Roar and Stomp will be good at the moment for Rhino, expecially if these changes/buffs will be more focused on CC and  buff ally/debuff enemies.

 

Edited June 23, 2015 by -CM-Angus

[(PSN)Sinladar]

I feel like not many ppl are looking at ironclad charge. I think it should be rolled into the ability and have the armor buff duration increased. This would go a long way to buff rhinos survivability in high end content with out the need for iron skin to be touched.

Rhino is my main and currently I've been bored of playing strength and efficiency only. So I built a rage armor health build using ironclad charge and I love it I don't use iron skin at all with this build. My only complaint is that the armor buff from icc doesn't scale enough with duration mods. I feel like the mod itself should be rolled into charge and the new mod should work like eternal war where kills extend duration.

Edited June 23, 2015 by (PS4)Sinladar

[Holeypaladin]

Iron skin unchanged?  Seriously?

 

Iron skin is what needs changing the most!

 

It's completely useless against high level opponents that destroy it in one shot.  ALL of the "Fix rhino" topics have been primarily about iron skin....

[Cradicias]

Think Iron Skin needs a slight rework, mainly due to the fact that it's viability drops substantially late game. I'm honestly having a hard time thinking of a way to rectify the situation, seeing as late game Iron Skin basically only absorbs one shot, then you're vulnerable again. Maybe make it so it absorbs a set number of direct hits (DoT's do nothing)?

[Arlayn]

Going to need to prepare a duration Rhino for the soon to come future it seems...

[Malindros]

In the Radial-blinding light of a widely discussed and promoted Excalibur Rework, a lot of attention has immediately moved forward to Frost and our hopes about what his rework will bring. However - in the immediate future - there are some changes coming to Rhino based on a lot of conversations about where he fits into things overall. We had some time to address what we could earlier today with Rhino - some relatively small items that still create a more formidable Rhino as a whole.

 

As always - everything is subject to change. The following ability tweaks are based on our combined experiences with Rhino, and if there's anything you'd like to bring up in relation to the following, this thread is the spot for it!

 

Firstly, Rhino Charge:

 

We are working to added forced ragdolling to every enemy in Rhino's way when he casts Rhino Charge. We're looking to do-away with the scenario where Rhino Charges into a group of high-level enemies and stops dead in his tracks because his charge wasn't lethal; we're going to be making non-lethal hits send the enemies flying instead!

 

Secondly, Iron Skin will be unchanged.  

Thirdly, Roar:

 

The most immediate problem with Roar is obvious if you're freshly ranking Rhino: a 'Rank 1' Roar only lasts for 7 seconds, and takes about a full second or more to cast. The change we're making here is that Rhino's Roar will have a duration of 30 seconds regardless of your Frame Rank. For reference, currently a max-Rank, unmodded Roar lasts for 15 seconds. Note that, as before, the Duration can be enhanced through mods -- with the right mods a max-duration roar will last almost a minute and a half!

 

Lastly, Rhino Stomp:

 

As it stands, the Stasis portion of Rhino's Stomp has an 8 second flat-rate that is not affected by Duration mods. However, we are going to apply the benefits of Duration modding to this part of the ability. This means you can now mod for a longer or shorter Duration (depending on the mods used).

 

We're aiming to have this in your hands for feedback this week on PC!

As a rhino player, this sounds quite pleasing!

[Osiris371]

But will the Stomp time disruption actually now hinder enemies that move into the area after the initial "cast"? Or will it still be a subpar CC that only works on those in the area.

 

Add a tapering slow to the stomps area, say 30%-0 over the duration, that would slow any enemies that wandered into the AoE of the stomp (what with it supposedly has "...force sufficient to disrupt time..." and, IMO, it would be perfect.

[(PSN)Sinladar]

Iron skin unchanged?  Seriously?

 

Iron skin is what needs changing the most!

 

It's completely useless against high level opponents that destroy it in one shot.  ALL of the "Fix rhino" topics have been primarily about iron skin....

Honestly I've never had my iron skin 1 shot but at high lvl it dose go down quickly even using max blind rage trans fort and intensify (and by high lvl I mean 40 mins+ surv non camp) . They say they are not touching iron skin and I'm ok with that I'm sick of building my rhino for iron skin alone. I'd rather have a rhino that is tanky without being forced into modding solely for 1 ability.

[fatpig84]

If your iron skin is getting 1 shotted, you are already playing way above your pay grade.

 

A maximum spec IS build resist 3408 damage.

If that 1 shot can take off iron skin, 1110 shields AND 740 health. 

Then Iron skin is the least of your concern.

 

It is how you contribute to keeping your team alive instead.

That is why people don't use him for endgame, because his CC is not spammble.

The new changes are hella promising for this case.

 

 

Yes this is a maximum tank build with 2 forma.

You can even go higher if you drop stretch for Vigor.

http://goo.gl/CDXpT3

 

 

 

if you are whining about Rhino IS failing you, think about the rest of the line up. 

You think Mag, Volt, Nyx, Nova, Nekros just to name a few have the luxury of IS tanking what would have being a fatal 1 shot from a Nullifier ?

 

 

Iron skin does need help, but it should be the lowest priority.

Edited June 23, 2015 by fatpig84

[Holeypaladin]

The problem is that Rhino is historically the tank frame, along with Frost.

 

With iron skin in its current form, he's currently the least resilient of all of the resilient frames, falling behind Chroma, Valkyr, Trinity, Mesa, and Mirage.  Yes, Mirage the glass cannon is more resilient than Rhino, provided she hangs out in the shadows where she has 95% DR to everything.

 

The changes to his other abilities are welcome, but the most serious problem is still in the fact that iron skin is a terrible ability compared to all other tanking abilities in the game, provided you're fighting against enemies level 30 and higher.

[taiiat]

The difference in their bulkiness now isn't so much to do with their armor values as it is with Exalted Blade's innate auto-parry.

Hmm. A substantial armor buff wouldn't hurt at all on Rhino in that case.

- true, the integrated Reflex Guard is fairly effective. it doesn't block Status and only sometimes blocks non Status CC Effects however.

being able to deflect most of the shots coming towards you is certainly useful, but there's a wide variety of Enemies with Guns. you'll quickly find an Enemy that will knock you down, and now you have nothing until you stand back up.

on a slightly different hand, keep in mind that it means that your Stamina is being drained pretty much always. most of the time in Combat you'll have 0 Stamina. which takes away Sliding (and Sprinting but we know Sprinting is only used to go into Sliding). this does actually matter, as it makes Excalibur much slower to get out of Combat.

- you could say that, but it's also pointless. Rhino doesn't use his Health for anything. all of his other Stats and Abilities help him avoid taking Health Damage in the first place.

you're suggesting that we adjust Armor simply for cosmetic reasons, when it doesn't matter. people need to stop using the Armor Stat as some sort of metric to gauge durability. it's never mattered. i'd rather have 5 more Health on my Warframe than 40 more Armor. because it'll actually make a difference in Combat.

Rhino is a 'Tank' in that he has a third Health Bar, and a large second Health Bar to protect his most important Health Bar. that's how he operates. he avoids taking Health Damage almost ever, therefore he doesn't die.

Excalibur delves into Melee constantly. that's why he has enough Armor to notice a Health difference between himself and the Warframes with 50/65 Armor.

i.e. it's really pointless to bother. the Armor Stat needs to stop being perceived as a gauge for Durability, because it's the Stat that matters the least for 95% of the Warframes.

[(PSN)Sinladar]

Armor dose matter if you want to play a melee/rage build. I do with my rhino, so long as rage builds are used armor will always be very useful.

Edited June 23, 2015 by (PS4)Sinladar

[Naqel]

Lastly, Rhino Stomp:

 

As it stands, the Stasis portion of Rhino's Stomp has an 8 second flat-rate that is not affected by Duration mods. However, we are going to apply the benefits of Duration modding to this part of the ability. This means you can now mod for a longer or shorter Duration (depending on the mods used).

 

So now Rhino can turn the combat off for even longer...

Brilliant design, why should I play Warframe instead of clicker hero again?

 

The gameplay is becoming dangerously similar with each update.

Edited June 23, 2015 by Naqel

[Atrophon]

[Za Warudo intensifies]

 

[gizol333]

 

 

Secondly, Iron Skin will be unchanged.  

 

i'm sad

[VampirePirate]

In the Radial-blinding light of a widely discussed and promoted Excalibur Rework, a lot of attention has immediately moved forward to Frost and our hopes about what his rework will bring. However - in the immediate future - there are some changes coming to Rhino based on a lot of conversations about where he fits into things overall. We had some time to address what we could earlier today with Rhino - some relatively small items that still create a more formidable Rhino as a whole.

 

As always - everything is subject to change. The following ability tweaks are based on our combined experiences with Rhino, and if there's anything you'd like to bring up in relation to the following, this thread is the spot for it!

 

Firstly, Rhino Charge:

 

We are working to added forced ragdolling to every enemy in Rhino's way when he casts Rhino Charge. We're looking to do-away with the scenario where Rhino Charges into a group of high-level enemies and stops dead in his tracks because his charge wasn't lethal; we're going to be making non-lethal hits send the enemies flying instead!

 

Secondly, Iron Skin will be unchanged.  

Thirdly, Roar:

 

The most immediate problem with Roar is obvious if you're freshly ranking Rhino: a 'Rank 1' Roar only lasts for 7 seconds, and takes about a full second or more to cast. The change we're making here is that Rhino's Roar will have a duration of 30 seconds regardless of your Frame Rank. For reference, currently a max-Rank, unmodded Roar lasts for 15 seconds. Note that, as before, the Duration can be enhanced through mods -- with the right mods a max-duration roar will last almost a minute and a half!

 

Lastly, Rhino Stomp:

 

As it stands, the Stasis portion of Rhino's Stomp has an 8 second flat-rate that is not affected by Duration mods. However, we are going to apply the benefits of Duration modding to this part of the ability. This means you can now mod for a longer or shorter Duration (depending on the mods used).

 

We're aiming to have this in your hands for feedback this week on PC!

I like those idea Rebecca.  If that is how Rhino will be soon, then I will start using him more.  Same with Excalibur, I am not using him more after the changes.  I look forward to more warframe power reworks.

[Tesseract7777]

I like a lot of these changes, but I am really disappointed Iron Skin is being ignored. It needs to scale better, and the type of armor used for it could also take some serious looking at. It's just ferrite, which is kind of weird. And it doesn't scale with armor at all. It would be simple to make a couple fixes like this, but one of his most important abilities is being completely ignored. I don't understand this. Why can't Iron Skin get some love? 

[WarGrylls]

Just finished reading the main bulk of the dev workings ... and... I have major reservations about the dev's minds about Iron Skin and Stomp.

 

First, He can use more armor. Excal is 225/250 and blocks from the front making him half vulnerable pretty much so no more than 400 maybe... idk. Been seeing some people's threads about the excal reworks being power creep and they just... *sigh, smh*... GETTING OFF TOPIC

 

Make Iron Skin behave sorta like Snow Globe in a sense that it'll look at a percentage of the overall armor values to add health to the skin... so like 100%, or base strength, power and 400 armor + steel fiber armor of 440 = +840 iron skin health. Y'know?

 

As it is now, Rhino has been a CC frame and can pause a whole room as wide as 60 meters for 8 seconds that 8 seconds being affected by duration will mean modding on strength and range will render the stomp useless for reviving teammates(likely fleeting exp. is in use to either counter possible inefficiency, or to have high efficiency). Reasons why include low duration equals not enough life saving time, and too high duration equals cooldown limiter hampers recasting on emergencies.

 

Looking at these possible changes and the mods i have on hand as well as what I think COULD work w my suggestions included, a rhino can look like:

 

Vitality Rage Quick Thinking Primed Flow

Blind Rage Over Extended Primed Continuity Fleeting Expertise

 

with around 2.2k skin hp, 28.5 seconds of almost +70% damage of Roar, and 7.6 stasis seconds of a stomp spanning almost 48 meters radius or something. 

 

The tweaking doesn't put rhino up there with other frames like what happened with Excal(and I can take him to level 100+ grineer on my own , others likely can go further then me) so please make him useable in the Hek raid.

 

That's pretty much my personal standard about these frames: can't live to see lv 70+ (faction)? you need help!

 

edited better word choice

Edited June 24, 2015 by WarGrylls

[Seratuhlis]

Iron skin is too frail for end-game runs. Here are some ideas that might make it very viable as an endgame skill in late tower runs/raids.

 

 

- Make iron skin scale with armor.

 

OR

 

- Make iron skin regenerate your health while it's on.

 

 

 

Proposed roar changes are nice, the fan suggestion of "making the enemies scared stiff when roar is used" SHOULD be a feature considering how loud and intimidating rhino could be.

 

 

 

 

Also, seeing as how Rhino is the "heaviest warframe" shouldn't he have the most armor? or maybe the most health? Or maybe a buff on both? This guy was born to tank and yet Valkyr, Chroma, and now Exalted Blade Excalibur can easily outdo him in that field.

 

 

 

 

Rhino also needs a passive aura of his own. Like Mesa and Excalibur, Rhino should have something that fits in with his tanky brute theme, like regenerating health, team armor buff, or a greatly increased damage buff on all heavy blade/hammer weapons and fists.

[CrimsonNightSky]

Just finished reading the main bulk of the dev workings ... and... I have major reservations about the dev's minds about Iron Skin and Stomp.

Excal was a long running project and a probably a sign of things to come for how frames are designed.

The changes to rhino aren't his big rework, they're basically there to try things out with his design and help him out while they work out their vision for Rhino 2.0 (prob some ways down the line). 

Also, any change they make to Iron Skin now would become the bar for future reworks, and if they change it in the future more people are likely to cry nerf. I think they're being conservative with the Skin til they figure out if the current overshield is what they're going for or not.