Why It's Time To Reevaluate Playing This Game.

[master_of_destiny]

That doesn't really mean much, EVERY player eventually stops playing any game at some point.

 

The fact that your friends stopped playing doesn't mean everyone is and it doesn't mean there are no new players either.

 

When me and my friends stopped playing killing floor a few years ago do you think everyone did too? of course not. also the game had solid sales after that too.

 

Make your point. 

 

You start off by saying that anecdotal information isn't fact.  I'll buy that, but what do you have?  You haven't provided facts, statistics, or even anecdote.  An argument with no base in reality is dismissed as quickly as it is made.

 

Additionally, attempting to say "players stop playing" is a non-argument.  If that logic were to hold water, you make the assumption that DE will never actually release this game.  The potential players of the game will eventually be exhausted, as older players stop playing and are not replaced by new ones.  That particular situation is fine for a game with an end, but for a game that needs a player base to support content (read: all  MMOs) it's death.

 

 

Is your argument that DE is so inept as to be waiting out the death of the player base?  I would conjecture that their enthusiasm speaks volumes against that conclusion.  Is your argument that I'm being hyperbolic?  I'm fine with that, prove I'm wrong.  I'd actually like to be incorrect.  Maybe we can look at Killing Floor as an example; oh wait, Killing Floor 2 was released.  I guess that means you're waiting for DE to give up on Warframe and release Warframe 2.  Thing is, Killing Floor worked correctly upon release, and for that we paid money.  I'd suggest looking at Guild Wars 2 for your example.  You pay up front, are able to play the game without ever spending a cent, but you are given the option to make the game much more convenient with microtransactions.  They have a complete game, yet constantly release new content to make the player base keep coming back.  If Guild Wars isn't your jam, I'll ask you about Warcraft, but that discussion is so finely nuanced I don't want to get into it.

 

 

 

 

What's the point... making these posts wont change anything

 

Sigh.  I think you're right, but I'd like to give DE the benefit of doubt.

 

On Tuesday morning if there is no official response I'll know DE doesn't give a whit about their players, and I'll know it's time to move on.  Before I salt the earth, I'd like to give them a fair chance to respond.  So many people don't.  I do like their game, and their enthusiasm is real enough, so giving them a fair chance is only reasonable. 

 

 

After sleeping on it, I'd like to add a suggestion on the Trader. Have Baro introduce new items every two weeks and then after those 2 weeks are up, graduate them into circulation for an underling who has a constant presence on the relays as you suggested. Baro is still sort of a mini-event, and this would give the best of both worlds.

 

An interesting idea.  I think it's better than my initial proposition.

Edited June 28, 2015 by masterofdetiny

[Rebellis]

Lack of direction and no sense of what the end-product should be like is par for the course when it comes to F2P games.

Edited June 28, 2015 by Rebellis

[fatpig84]

Lack of direction and no sense of what the end-product should be like is par for the course when it comes to F2P games.

 

 

Why do I like this game ?

Because exactly it has no direction or end product to look forward.

I just go through the motions.

 

And I actually like that.

 

 

Maybe because I play EVE online, where there is no endgame.

So I can really make do with little lore and lack of directions.

I just do as a I please.

 

Since I have the freedom to do what I want, I don't really expect things much. 

When devs like CCP release new content, I go yaaay, try it for a while then go back to my normal routine.

 

But having said that, the new U17 Star chart changes will really test my resolve.

Especially with voids being removed from recruiting.

Edited June 28, 2015 by fatpig84

[Censium]

That doesn't really mean much, EVERY player eventually stops playing any game at some point.

 

The fact that your friends stopped playing doesn't mean everyone is and it doesn't mean there are no new players either.

 

When me and my friends stopped playing killing floor a few years ago do you think everyone did too? of course not. also the game had solid sales after that too.

What it means is the game is failing to keep an audience. It's failing to keep players.

 

And im sorry, Every player eventually stops is entirely incorrect. A good game keeps it's players coming back for more. It retains them.

The fact that that these people arn't playing anymore shows that DE isn't able to retain it's fanbase. It does mean alot. This is just a group of 28. Imagine the statistics as a whole. No players, no game. And a game who loses it's old players as quick as it makes new ones is on a life line. They never last long. And Warframe seems to be getting into this pattern. It gains tons and tons of new players. But, they're losing them just as quick.

 

As much as I love DE and I love Warframe, i've personally been disappointed with them in recent, mostly pointed out by OP. And I will keep playing and giving my support to this game, 

 

Hopes to U17 and beyond though. They've always fixed their game, even if it took longer than what we'd like.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

Make your point.

You start off by saying that anecdotal information isn't fact. I'll buy that, but what do you have? You haven't provided facts, statistics, or even anecdote. An argument with no base in reality is dismissed as quickly as it is made.

Additionally, attempting to say "players stop playing" is a non-argument. If that logic were to hold water, you make the assumption that DE will never actually release this game. The potential players of the game will eventually be exhausted, as older players stop playing and are not replaced by new ones. That particular situation is fine for a game with an end, but for a game that needs a player base to support content (read: all MMOs) it's death.

Is your argument that DE is so inept as to be waiting out the death of the player base? I would conjecture that their enthusiasm speaks volumes against that conclusion. Is your argument that I'm being hyperbolic? I'm fine with that, prove I'm wrong. I'd actually like to be incorrect. Maybe we can look at Killing Floor as an example; oh wait, Killing Floor 2 was released. I guess that means you're waiting for DE to give up on Warframe and release Warframe 2. Thing is, Killing Floor worked correctly upon release, and for that we paid money. I'd suggest looking at Guild Wars 2 for your example. You pay up front, are able to play the game without ever spending a cent, but you are given the option to make the game much more convenient with microtransactions. They have a complete game, yet constantly release new content to make the player base keep coming back. If Guild Wars isn't your jam, I'll ask you about Warcraft, but that discussion is so finely nuanced I don't want to get into it.

Sigh. I think you're right, but I'd like to give DE the benefit of doubt.

On Tuesday morning if there is no official response I'll know DE doesn't give a whit about their players, and I'll know it's time to move on. Before I salt the earth, I'd like to give them a fair chance to respond. So many people don't. I do like their game, and their enthusiasm is real enough, so giving them a fair chance is only reasonable.

An interesting idea. I think it's better than my initial proposition.

Feel free to modify your initial post with my suggestion if you think it will help to get it read.

[Davoodoo]

I feel like you put egg before chicken in void trader.

 

1)De made voids into horrible grind by putting drop rates on rare parts damn low, ofc each prime item had at least 1 rare part.

2)De introduced plat trading, despite big part of community suggesting that plat trading was horrible idea.

3)Prices on trash loot went down for obvious reasons

4)Community asked for a way to change trash parts into useful ones

5)De years later introduced void trader which brought more grind.

6)De started adding to void trader stuff which should be added into game, to retain its plat price

 

Sorry no, de again introduced horrible grind to bypass fixing horrible grind and now they also want to earn money off a bandaid fix.

[Ronyn]

I agree with some of your concerns.

However-

Warframe is hemorrhaging players.  

Are there any REAL metrics on warframes player bases growth or shrinkage?

If not I don't think any of us should bother stating whether it's growing, shrinking or staying about the same.

 

Finally, let's talk about the free to play fallacy.

There are two facts to keep in mind here.

1: A game company NEEDS to make MONEY or it WILL NOT EXIST. 

2: YOU can play warframe without spending a dime of YOUR money.

 

Free to play is not a fallacy in warframe, it is misnomer that the game industry as a whole never should have embraced.

In other words: the whole label of "free to play" it is misleading in general.

Why? Because of the same realities that every business deals with.

 

No company (developer) can keep their doors open if they don't make money. This is not contestable. It simply is.

A company can get that money from either from some of their customers (players) themselves OR from some other party who wants to advertisers to their customers. So either some players pay or we we will have to deal with ads all throughout the game world. 

There is no other conceivable option.

 

Free to play never meant that no one would be paying for the game. Someone has to. That should as blatant as it gets.

All free to play ever actually meant was that on an individual level a person can choose not to pay a dime and still access the content.

Worth noting: Any individual can play warframe and access all relevant content through in game avenues of play and trade. (outside a few cosmetic things from prime access and discontinued founder packs) 

 

One can argue over the specific prices for specific objects if they like.

But make no mistake..free to play is just a "buzzword". It is not an accurate phrasing for a business model. It couldn't be.

Sadly it is too late for the developers to expect the gamer population at large to accept a change in the name so it is what it is.

[vaugahn]

Are there any REAL metrics on warframes player bases growth or shrinkage?

If not I don't think any of us should bother stating whether it's growing, shrinking or staying about the same.

 

There's steam charts, which shows how many players are online at a given moment. Right now, it's showing only the usual update-related fluctuation. There was a huge increase of players around U15, and a smaller spike at U16, but both those numbers have leveled back out around their normal value,. There will most likely be another huge spike with U17, and then another drop. I'm pretty sure this is because steam advertises recently updated games, causing many players to download Warframe and try it out with only a percentage of that group picking it up. It's a slow increase, if they advertised more it would be more reliable. Right now Warframe is the 14th most active game on steam, which is below average for it but not the lowest it's ever been. 

 

Other than that, there's not really many metrics to go by. I assume DE has a way to track these things, but they obviously don't share them with us.

Edited June 28, 2015 by vaugahn

[Flustershy]

Dude if you need a break from this game take it, don't be a drama queen and start making 10000 word essay about why do you leave and so on.....

 

[not implying that you wouldn't have valid stuff there you do but still you need a break you take a break that's it if you want to tell somebody tell it to your clan leader or tell it to the clan if you're the leader]

[kitsu]

Alot of good and conflicting points mentioned in this thread.

 

I belive the bottom line that hurts warframe as a whole is a lack of a foundation for the game to stand on, in a story and progression wise manner.

The game relies more on daily updates and new things while never revisting past events, which alot of new players have missed out.

 

Reality wise, this game is like watching a poorly maintained road gain hundreds of potholes and road side buildings breaking down as they are abandoned for making the road longer. Not maintaining theprevious parts of the road causes alot of issues for old and new players alike.

 

From enemies to events to quests to content to updates to bugs to warframes to weapons to the direction of the game itself.

It is all too scattered and the game is breaking at the seams.

 

- Warframes themselves are well made in being unique and for the most part hold a decent balance. Some of the augment mods need some tweaking as do other warframes concerning their powers in a PVE environment.

 

- Weapons need to be more unique on stats and damage while reworking the combat aspect itself. Faster reload that does not make it longer to switch to melee than it does to switch to weapons. The basic 3 need rework and weapons need to stop being bound to all 3 physical damage types, limit them to 1-2 instead, drive a stronger PVE element. Keep ALL elements of PVP and PVE seperate. Rework all damage elements and numbers for PVP as a completely seperate game element with nothing from PVE carrying over, this includes ammo carry, clip size, and damage numbers.

 

- Enemies are only basic, and rely on scaling to provide challange and replayability, which limits playability and retention in the game itself. Adding unique enemies would diversify tactics and gameplay itself. People dislike mesa's 4, so why not have an enemy that can deflect bullets back, something along those lines. DE had creativeness with the assassins and stalker but because stalker has a paywall for his gear and they want people to be special with their brakk and detron, the fear factor and strenght of these assassins are medicore at best, especially due to their low spawn chances. DE needs to rekindle their creativeness once again to breathe new life into this element of the game.

 

- Story wise Warframe actually has one, but it is bound behind a one time only event that is lost forever to all newer players. Simarus is the perfect oppurtinuty to let new players relive the old events and re-release old and forgotten weapons. The old weapons tied to events will not come with a catalyst, nor a weaponslot and will be given as a BP that requires 'etc' to build, probably something new to make them harder to make. DE can also lock events in a MR progression that ties to how events came out and how the story progressed, even letting people fight vey hek before he became a flying potato we all know. So much potential and replayability lost because of this, even make vets that relive these events have them scale and get harder, to keep that challange.

 

- Money, where DE can find the most, would be in cosmetics department. Alot of money potential is behind all those prime cosmetics, but knowing how the community likes to confuse lifetime contract exclusive with time limited exclusive that will be rereleased again is poisoning DE's judgement and new players. Rereleasing won't make it so DE does not get more money, it would be quite the opposite.

 

The sad part is, money and cosmetics ties to player retention (more active players yield more consumers), which ties to story and events (an existing story and proper events, even old ones prolong playtime and retention), who in turn is bound by enemies and scaling (proper scaling and creative enemies yeild rewarding challanges and acommplishments), which in turn is bound by weapons and warframes (Weapon diversity in stats and handling yeilds wider array of wepon builds. While a proper warframe synergy greatly lifts the coop element of warframe, bringing the community together and prolonging playerbase retention).

 

 

 

TL:DR:

Game's synergy with all gameplay elements completely broken. One fix will not change anything. Everything needs to synergize with the other.

 

 

Final note:

I'd love to go more indept and explain each subject thoroughly but I fear it will fall on deaf ears in the forums, community, and especially with DE.

[Guest (PS4)Baby0Shaq34]

Dude if you need a break from this game take it, don't be a drama queen and start making 10000 word essay about why do you leave and so on.....

[not implying that you wouldn't have valid stuff there you do but still you need a break you take a break that's it if you want to tell somebody tell it to your clan leader or tell it to the clan if you're the leader]

With the Archwing bit is a bit iffy but for the other stuff. It's true and If you don't like it. Take a hike! Edited June 28, 2015 by (PS4)Baby0Shaq34

[Censium]

the OP has spoken and what he said is true. If you don't like it. Take a hike!

... Don't kick other out because their views are different. While it's not the most productive comment, at least they had the courtesy to not be an something-hat to OP.

[Guest (PS4)Baby0Shaq34]

... Don't kick other out because their views are different. While it's not the most productive comment, at least they had the courtesy to not be an something-hat to OP.

Well, that dude shouldn't be calling people drama queens when the OP is telling the truth. Period

[kitsu]

Well, that dude shouldn't be calling people drama queens when the OP is telling the truth. Period

 

Truths are pretty relevant to one's perspective, but that does not mean if there is a difference in oppinions that one should respond harshly.

Any thought, words, or opinions is valid as long as they are on subject. OP can take a break AND leave a message for DE to hopefully evaluate, and determine if their game's problems as stated by OP need to be looked into.

 

Problem is as one of the Moderators stated, too much packed into it to be determined as one problem, which is the problem. Too many issues on multiple areas of the game.

[R34LM]

A lot of the things that have been stated by the OP I can agree with. I, too, have a long list of players who haven't been on for a while; some of them even add up to a year. My best friend, who got me into this game in the first place, hasn't played for a year. When I told him what the new content was, he wasn't impressed, and when he asked how the actual gameplay was, he nodded out.

 

I've been in this game since U8, M14. The issue these days is that DE releases some new content that is then later forgotten about because they move onto the "next big thing". No content has been added to Archwing since the Itzal addition, and that was just a new archwing, not changes to the gameplay. I'd wager sharkwing will just be a new tileset with different enemies, just like when the Phobos, Ceres and Europa tilesets came out. Archwing is just one example of abandoned content. All the devs can do is introduce more and more and more and more equipment to keep the player base here, which just oversaturates the market and drop tables, which destroys the game in the long run (void is the prime example, pun intended).

 

And what do we even have for gampeplay? We are constantly tasked to take new items and level them with forma and whatnot because we want to see what they can actually do at higher levels. The only way to acquire xp in mass is either spy 2.0 or killing an entire army of grineer on draco. I don't see anyone leveling items on exterminates or captures for an obvious reason: pitiful xp gain. Playing the game for fun doesn't grant a lot of xp and playing the game to get a lot of xp (Draco mainly) is just exploitative and monotonous and not fun in any way, just work really.

 

The game just has too many controversial issues that have been going on for so long without being resolved. Draco, grind, rng, p4tw, power creep, exploits, mastery fodder weapons, half-baked content, the list can go on. The presence of all of these issues really makes me question whether or not I should even play this game anymore. Hey, I love it to death and play it when I can, but the upcoming prime access will the last bundle of hard earned money they get from me. The amount of money I put into it to support it just can no longer be justified. 

[NovusNiveus]

Actual player numbers based on Steam users: http://steamcharts.com/app/230410#6m

I don't have anything to really add to this thread except to say that I mostly agree with the OP, so I'm not posting this link to make any kind of point. It's just there so that someone else might be able to make something of the figures and perhaps use them when giving their own input.

 

You can filter by lots of different time periods - I just felt that Last 6 Months was the most relevant. I feel that the numbers and variance are large enough to be statistically significant for the purpose of arguing whatever it is you wish to argue.

Edited June 29, 2015 by UnearthedArcana

[Chroia]

First, you are so afraid of power creep that any new items are relegated to mastery rank fodder before they even have a chance to be played with.  The weirdest thing about this is you have a built-in system to prevent power creep in the early game, yet it isn't used.  The mastery rank system suddenly is forgotten about at rank 8, and new weapons have silently been added to the very lowest ranks.

That's poor planning of power curve, being "addressed" by artificially limiting power on everything.  That level of system breaking is why fear of power creep is excusing incompetent design.

Agreed, though this seems to me to be part-and-parcel of Warframe's lack of unified overall direction. (I don't know that this is the case, but that's how it feels to me.)

And, given that, the inevitable cries against nerfs to the <statistically most potent weapons> can't be countered on the basis of 'this is what the game's health requires', if applied before DE knows what it's aiming for.

(e.g. endgame was T3; level ~35 content. Then T4 was added (Level 35, glass canon enemies). Now 'endgame' is raids (level ~80).

(And the day that I hear that they're adding a T5 is the day I stop playing Warframe.)

These require different player power levels.

...

Well, or perma CC.)

 

 

 

Broken content.  It's time to do the unpopular here, and suggest the void trader is a good idea. 

... Poor planning has broken what could be a good piece of content, and the void trader isn't the only bit of broken content.

The Void Trader, as initially represented on <whichever Devstream it was> was a good idea.

Which is completely other from how it was implemented.

 

I'd love a token system, or a streakbreaker, or whatever other appropriate system would fit as some way of making progress even with RNG in full effect.

(Which is part of what he was supposed to be.)

 

Why and where the change in direction happened, I don't know, but it saddens me.

Oh, and where the heck did the idea of Primed mods come from, and how does their invention jive with avoiding the dreaded powercreep?

 

 

1) Offering your player base little or no communication about objective goals, and 2) constantly changing where the goal posts lie. 

<snip>

This is a radical idea, but maybe you should use your website to show relative progress.

In fairness:

1)

The idea was raised, some devstreams ago, but afaik nothing came of it.

 

2) Life happens. I'm willing to accept that, to a point.

 

 

 

Finally, every update breaks almost as much as it fixes.  This is a bold statement, but I'm willing to support it. .

Despite your offered support for this claim, my impression is that it's unfairly overstated.

My experience, at least, is that A) while there was a period where I'd expect matchmaking issues following a patch through U14 and a bunch of U15, I don't expect it to be the case anymore, and B) I haven't come across any dramatically gamebreaking bug in a fair while.

The occasional 'something didn't spawn' or 'spawned in the wrong place', which is irritating and forces an abort, but they tend to be one-offs.

Maybe I'm just blessed.

 

 

No comment of your Void Trader suggestion, haven't given it any thought yet.

No comment on changing target patch day, but even I'm aware of weekend hotfixes, which I don't think are a given.

Also,

DE certainly has a bold, fast-paced style of expansion and implementation (it can be messy, which is why the "Beta" moniker beyond possible tax break implications), which I tend to be forgiving about, simply because they've tried to hit as close to the mark as possible by meeting the ravenous and insatiable demands of player-fans. It's an impossible task, but d@mn if I don't respect and admire them for it.

You can say what you will about other aspects, but my -admittedly unfounded- feeling is that they really do put effort into hitting the deadlines they set. (Which no doubt impacts on the 'soon-ness' of other, less immediate concerns, and hence part of my... idk, lenient? attitude towards the fluidity of dates for upcoming things.)

Whether that's healthy for them/good for the game is a different question which I can't opine on.

 

 

-----

 

Regarding power creep and mastery locking:

 

 

Additionally, DE should increase weapon swap speed to encourage players to make 2 different weapon build for different weaknesses of enemies in the same faction.

+1

 

-----

 

 

I'm hoping they at least do me the courtesy of a PM, but I'm not holding my breath.  I'll give them the courtesy they don't often give us, and waiting until Monday to draw conclusions.

While magnanimous, I don't know how realistic it is to expect a relevant person to see, let alone respond, within a week.

I don't know the priorities (past, you know, 'putting out fires' (probably) being #1 on the list), but even targetted PMs can take a week or more (depending on the exact window of time you're talking about).

And with U17 this-or-next week... *shrug*?

Possibly if someone appropriate flagged this for attention, but idk how such things work, or what warrants them.

 

-----

 

 

What's the point... making these posts wont change anything

 

Because sometimes you feel that you owe it, at least to yourself, to have tried.

If because you're invested in the game and are (perhaps naively) hopeful, if as a 'I've done my best/all I can' to allow you to move on.

 

-----

 

 

There are two facts to keep in mind here.

1: A game company NEEDS to make MONEY or it WILL NOT EXIST. 

2: YOU can play warframe without spending a dime of YOUR money.

<snip>

^ Bears repeating.

 

 

=====

 

Edit:

 

A lot of the things that have been stated by the OP I can agree with.

<snip>

The issue these days is that DE releases some new content that is then later forgotten about because they move onto the "next big thing". No content has been added to Archwing since the Itzal addition, and that was just a new archwing, not changes to the gameplay. I'd wager sharkwing will just be a new tileset with different enemies, just like when the Phobos, Ceres and Europa tilesets came out. Archwing is just one example of abandoned content. All the devs can do is introduce more and more and more and more equipment to keep the player base here, which just oversaturates the market and drop tables, which destroys the game in the long run (void is the prime example, pun intended).

 

And what do we even have for gampeplay? We are constantly tasked to take new items and level them with forma and whatnot because we want to see what they can actually do at higher levels. The only way to acquire xp in mass is either spy 2.0 or killing an entire army of grineer on draco. I don't see anyone leveling items on exterminates or captures for an obvious reason: pitiful xp gain. Playing the game for fun doesn't grant a lot of xp and playing the game to get a lot of xp (Draco mainly) is just exploitative and monotonous and not fun in any way, just work really.

Emphasis mine.

That's part of what I mean by 'lack of unified direction'.

 

Yes, Warframe runs, at least in part, on rule of cool.

But - to name just the last 2 examples - how long between the initial implementation of Kubrows (which I loath, but hey), and any subsequent readdressing (Genetic Foundry 2.0 has been theorycrafted, at least, and we'll be getting a Carrier-dog)?

How long between Archwing's initial implementation and any followup? (e.g. momentum, 2d hud, those @*^% torpedoes.)

And now again, but discounting Sharkwing, since that's less 'this is what we planned' and more 'working with what we have'.

 

* Credit where credit is due, Spy 2.0 is quite the exception here.

Admittedly not as large, splashy or flashy, it has been seeing steady, continuous improvements and additions since its launch, the latest being, what? 3 weeks ago?

Doing good, (Whirrrr and) folks. ^.^_b

 

 

 

And what do we even have for gampeplay? We are constantly tasked to take new items and level them with forma and whatnot because we want to see what they can actually do at higher levels. The only way to acquire xp in mass is either spy 2.0 or killing an entire army of grineer on draco. I don't see anyone leveling items on exterminates or captures for an obvious reason: pitiful xp gain. Playing the game for fun doesn't grant a lot of xp and playing the game to get a lot of xp (Draco mainly) is just exploitative and monotonous and not fun in any way, just work really.

To be fair, now that stealth kill multipliers are a thing, Exterminates can be a decent source of exp.

Of course, to be anywhere near competitive, this means that:

A) You have to be Loki (or Ash).

B) It only works for weapons that can oneshot your target. Because MOAR DMGZz!, I guess.

Which means that it has rather limited utility.

Edited June 29, 2015 by Chroia

[vaugahn]

You can filter by lots of different time periods - I just felt that Last 6 Months was the most relevant. I feel that the numbers and variance are large enough to be statistically significant for the purpose of arguing whatever it is you wish to argue.

 

If you look at "all", you'll see this pattern isn't exactly irregular. Player counts go down before a big update, then go up when the update hits, then go down again. You can see that it hangs out right at around 25k when nothing is happening. As soon as U17 hits you'll see the same big spike and the same big drop, same as always.

[Vallerian]

Nerf abilities, Revamp combat

 

This game is not maplestory, but the fighting certainly feels like it is.

[master_of_destiny]

To those trying to defend me, I thank you but it is unnecessary.  Nikolai-xd is entitled to their opinion.

 

To that end, I'm entitled to express mine.  Allow me to be frank, when you call someone a drama queen because they have an opinion it makes you look like a fool.  It's not moving the discussion forward, and unless I've demonstrated an incapability to take criticism there's no call for name calling.

 

 

The bare truth is that free to play is not magic.  You don't get governmental grants to make a video game, and you can't eat positive feedback on Steam.  DE needs to have players pay real money to keep the doors open and the lights on.  I can't conjecture as to anyone else, but I know that I haven't felt like spending any real money on this game since I bought the Nyx Prime Access.  I'm sorry, but that hurts both the developers and the players.

 

How do you address that?  It seems like DE has pasted themselves into a corner, and is keeping the community going by constantly adding new content.  They offer players the ability to buy into that content with real money, but retain players with it all being free.  For that to work, you've got to crank out content constantly, and players get into the habit of churning through that content.  Like it or not, the player base has been taught to churn content, which forces DE to make new content to replace it.  This is how players burn out, and it's hard to see from the inside.

 

I'm trying to tell DE that it's killing the game.  If you don't believe that, I implore you to keep playing.  We'll come back to the discussion in six months, and I'll ask the same question.  Heck, ask the people around here who have put in any stretch of time.  Ask them how many of their friends who played the game a lot before said they were burnt out.  Ask someone with a clan more than 3 months old how many of the original members are still there.  If you can get a consistent response that players continue to play, rather than popping in for new content and disappearing once it's been churned, I'll acquiesce. 

 

 

 

@UnearthedArcana

 

Thank you for providing the link.  While the data can be used to argue for and against my points, I think there are a few things we can all agree to.

1) Player spikes occur when major updates are released.

2) Player quantities cycle weekly, and are greatest on the weekends.

3) In general the Warframe player base peaks at the same quantity of players as was present 6 months ago. 

 

Interpret this how you will.  The positive outlook is a new peak number of player has been achieved in the last 6 month.  The negative outlook is that just to level off the amount of peak players DE has run a huge amount of events (double affinity, credits, resources, etc...) in the last six months, along with a new major update.

 

What I'm seeing is people that love what they are doing, but are so incapable of working toward a finite amount of goals that almost everything is released half done.  Yeah, it's great to show us Sharkwing, Kubrow armor, concept art, and new mechanics.  What I'd really like to know is that when they release it will work. 

 

 

@Chroia

You're entitle to believe whatever you'd like when it comes to bug fixing.  The reason I say this is that what amounts to a substantial bug varies from player to player.

 

I base my standards off of one simple metric.  If the amount of bugs that are fixed in a subsequent release amount to as many or more than those fixed in the last patch (minus pieces of content added), then you've got more input bugs than output fixes.  Additionally, if any bug is deemed fixed, but has to be fixed again in a later patch, you negate any instance where it was fixed. 

 

Let's look at an example.  In one content patch, say 16.10.0.  There were 11 fixes that I'd consider game breaking.  What we got were 4 emotes, one weapon, one conclave change, and about 4 changes to frame and their powers to better balance them.  11-4-1-1-4= 1.  16.10.1 offered 3 game breaking fixes.  1-3 = -2.  In my book, that means the 10 new things we received in 16.10.0 required two more patches to get working than the unique pieces of content they offered.

 

While less than scientific, and requiring interpretation to get to an answer, I've come to this conclusion a lot lately.  If you'd really like a refresher on this in action look back to the Archwing introduction.  Dozens of hotfixes were pushed, just to get one new piece of content up to a workable state.

 

 

So we can be on the same page, I'll hit the highlights.  I got to run around in space on my first archwing mission.  I have an AMD card, so that whole AMD snafu really turned me to boiling for a month.  It seems like permeable stages are a common thing, because I've spawned outside the map on derelicts, Corpus gas refinery tile sets, Grineer asteroid bases, and even void missions on a very rare occasion.  If the bug has been reported, I've likely seen it.  Heck, the introduction of /unstuck was such a blessing that I didn't know what to do.  I still, wait I haven't played all weekend.  I would still be using it on at least a weekly basis, could I stomach more of this game.

 

 

Final point to squeeze in here, then I'll be quiet for a while.  I expect a response to occur because the issue was initially logged Friday, and this thread was opened Saturday.  In two days it has managed to garner competent and reasonable discussion, and a substantial enough amount of agreement that its issues can reasonably warrant a five minute response.  Working in QC, I know that a simple "We're aware of your issues and are working towards a more complete answer.  It will be delivered shortly." can do more to diffuse an angry customer than delivering them silence but a complete answer in 4 days. 

 

I'm not expecting DE to write an essay on their plans, but a PM, or more ideally a response here, indicating they are looking into the raised issues and will address them (why not on one of those weekly streams?) isn't unreasonable.  Heck, the moderators here (Letter13 in particular) were kind enough to deliver a response to this in less than two hours.  This is despite my snarky response to a genuinely reasonable offer of well wishes.  If your community is more responsive than the developers (and the moderators are working pro-bono to my understanding), there's cause for concern.

[Chroia]

What I'm seeing is people that love what they are doing, but are so incapable of working toward a finite amount of goals that almost everything is released half done.

I'd call it 'in a variably working state', but that's just me being mealy-mouthed trying to be accurate.

But yeah.

(See: 'Rule of cool' 'kitchen sink included' and 'lack of unified direction' (which is probably not actually what I mean).

I base my standards off of one simple metric.

More scientific than mine. Probably more accurate too, as mine's purely subjective/short-term.

Final point to squeeze in here, then I'll be quiet for a while. <snip> Working in QC, I know that a simple "We're aware of your issues and are working towards a more complete answer.  It will be delivered shortly." can do more to diffuse an angry customer than delivering them silence but a complete answer in 4 days.

To clarify, if needed: My concern wasn't that this thread doesn't warrant a reply, so much as that to get a reply it needs to have been noticed in the first place; and the forums are busy.

I realise that I overlooked saying this:

Good feedback, well presented. And while occasionally, um, charged, it isn't vitriolic.

Best of luck.

=====

Tossing my 0.2$ Friendlist under the bus into the discussion:

* MR retained because a bunch of them were from before Draco-esque turbofarming became a thing.

* I don't go out of my way to make 'Friends'.

* This list doesn't include any 'Friends' I may have on any possible alt accounts.

* I haven't ever pruned my FL.Think that's all the relevant information.

With an arbitrary cutoff of 'have been online in the last week', online/offline seems fairly even to me.

...

A few of these people are 'on again off again', but it was kinda bittersweet realising just how long I haven't seen some of these (mostly) guys in.

[master_of_destiny]

This is where I have to draw a line in the sand, and stand my ground.

 

I concede that some people believe the recent course of this game is not killing it.  While I don't agree, you've done a reasonable job supporting the argument.  I can't really say my argument stands as better, only that it is based upon more than simple statistics.

 

 

I may be in the minority when it comes to this belief, but I believe that the game is approaching a precipice.  There will be a point at which people realize that the game is 100% based upon RNG loot drops at high levels, and that for low level players there is no reason to invest hundreds of hours to get all the gear (when you can buy end-game equipment for a couple of dollars).  DE has tried to address this issue by introducing trials, introducing the guides of the Lotus, having multiple event weekends, and making the grind seem valuable with the void trader.  They have demonstrated that they are concerned with player retention.

 

Now knowing that, let's frame the rest of the discussion.  We still have to grind like crazy for prime parts.  People are still power leveling, because using weaponry that won't be viable unless multiple forma are applied is tedious.  Player interaction has been a huge focus because prior to the relays the only way to meet people was random match making.  PvP is fitting in well with the relays, so much so that DE has killed off dark sector conflicts so the community focuses on it rather than the solar rails.  All the while we haven't had a new sentinel since U13, a new Kubrow since U14, a substantial reason to invest in Archwing since the relays were introduced, a reason to alter our dojos in so long that it hasn't occurred during my play time, and to top it off our reward for being patient and invested players was to have a time locked event (trials) with more RNG loot.  

 

I've come to the conclusion that nobody is steering the ship, and that's why this game is traveling to that precipice.  Everyone wants to add their cool new feature, and it's starting to mesh less and less.  Before that occurs, DE needs to get hold of the reigns.  It's our job as their consumers to let them know that we are concerned, and their job to alleviate that concern.  If my opinion is not heeded, that's fine.  Either I'm being hyperbolic, and thus incorrect, or I will be proven accurate and a labor of love will be harmed.  I'd happily be wrong, but when the phrase "burnt out" starts appearing on Youtube videos about your game there's reason for concern.  MMOs thrive on the community, and if it is damaged then the game is too.

[L4vpivo]

I've read this, while I'm not a longtime player, I can say that these are good suggestions and arguments you made, sadly the chances of them getting implemented (knowing other titles with similar issues) are slim, although I haven't been long enough with DE to know if they listen to the community or not.

[vaugahn]

Now knowing that, let's frame the rest of the discussion.  We still have to grind like crazy for prime parts.  People are still power leveling, because using weaponry that won't be viable unless multiple forma are applied is tedious.  Player interaction has been a huge focus because prior to the relays the only way to meet people was random match making.  PvP is fitting in well with the relays, so much so that DE has killed off dark sector conflicts so the community focuses on it rather than the solar rails.  All the while we haven't had a new sentinel since U13, a new Kubrow since U14, a substantial reason to invest in Archwing since the relays were introduced, a reason to alter our dojos in so long that it hasn't occurred during my play time, and to top it off our reward for being patient and invested players was to have a time locked event (trials) with more RNG loot.  

 

It's not that I disagree with any of this, because it's all about as true as it gets and you're making excellent points, it's just that framing your feedback in the whole "leading the game to ruin" thing detracts from the actual valid points you're making. 

[Feallike]

OK I 100% agree with everything you said about patches and Mastery Rank. Though I don't blame the devs for overhyping some things.

 

They are using the regular marketing ploy of trying to get people excited and playing the game. Investing and getting ready for the next big thing. Also most of the problem is Rebecca herself who over hypes some things, but she also helps a lot by keeping the devs on track. Though I know the developers are farrr from perfect.

 

My biggest problems with the developers is during dev streams they seem so scatter minded. They get off topic all the time, are way to quiet and seem they just got out of bed and are waiting for Rebecca to ask them questions. Their is no rehearsing going on whatsoever for some of the developers. It is sorta infuriating for Rebecca or another Dev to get into a serious topic then one of them to start joking around with a mispronounced word. I can understand humor but the playerbase wants to hear what the developers have to say about somethings. 

 

Dev Stream 55 was very disappointing by the lack of what they wanted to show. They showed everything they wanted to show and nothing more. When asked about Draco they shut up immediately just making a slight comment. I sincerely hope that they aren't afraid of their own playerbase...

 

They have talked about Power creeping weapons, their response was that if they did nerf BoltorPrime the playerbase would go into a uproar and they would lose many players because of the investment put into that weapon. That is the kinda attitude that gets me furious, the weapon is obviously OP but the devs are scared to nerf it because of the playerbase!

 

This game is far from going to hell, it is very promising and the DE have a lot of potental. It is just their priorities for fixing things seem to be off. They aren't serious enough about somethings and to serious about some other things. I wouldn't care if they stopped developing Archwing raids if they would fix the Mastery Rank system.

 

TL:DR: The DE needs man up and stop being scared of their own playerbase. They constantly avoid nerfing and fixing content out of fear of losing players. Their priorities seem to be screwed up sometimes. 

Edited June 29, 2015 by Feallike