Why It's Time To Reevaluate Playing This Game.

[muzashi1963]

Playing Devil's advocate here, but,......

 

One teeny, tiny, little bit of information that seems to have been overlooked with all the talk of money, and playerbase shrinkage vs growth, or quality vs quantity, is:..... how does the release to China factor into all of this?

 

 Do they really care? 

[ss4chris]

DE, I'm posting this as a way to let you know what the less rabid section of your fans is doing.  This post is likely to garner flaming from both sides, should it draw any real attention.  For that, I am sorry.  At the same time, living in an echo chamber is killing this game.

 

To begin, let's frame this discussion correctly.  I'm not a founder, but a large chunk of the people I know are.  I am mastery rank 19, despite only having started slightly before Limbo was introduced.  I have paid money for this game.  I bought one of the expansion packs via Amazon, and Nyx Prime access.  I've also had a daily login for the last 9 months.  Even when I couldn't play, I logged in. 

 

Now that we've got a clear frame of reference, let's talk about the game.

 

 

Warframe is hemorrhaging players.  The only thing that keeps them mildly interested in coming back is events and new content.  Whatever you'd like to say, this is a truth I've observed in game.  Between meeting three new players in nine months, and seeing six players who haven't logged in for three months or more, it's obvious that the player base is thinning.  I can't speak to the PS4 or Xbox One, but the lack of cross platform gaming makes them irrelevant.  Why do you suppose that is? 

 

First, you are so afraid of power creep that any new items are relegated to mastery rank fodder before they even have a chance to be played with.  The weirdest thing about this is you have a built-in system to prevent power creep in the early game, yet it isn't used.  The mastery rank system suddenly is forgotten about at rank 8, and new weapons have silently been added to the very lowest ranks.  The reasoning I'd like to believe is you're building a power pyramid, basically making a very large base to support an ever decreasing number of weapons that are consistently stronger.  Unfortunately, rank 8 is barren and everything after that doesn't exist.  I can demonstrate the failing here simply with one gun, Boltor Prime.  It is disproportionally represented in the end game, but a player that just started today could go onto the trade market, buy the parts, and have it made tomorrow.  That's poor planning of power curve, being "addressed" by artificially limiting power on everything.  That level of system breaking is why fear of power creep is excusing incompetent design.

 

Broken content.  It's time to do the unpopular here, and suggest the void trader is a good idea.  I know, that's going to be hard to swallow, but I'll make the point clear.  Most of this game is based upon a random number generator doling out loot for completing an objective.  The lucky players get what they want the first time, most players get it after a couple of runs, and the unlucky few might run a mission dozens of times to get a single item.  This is frustrating whenever the items are linked to specific timing, such as round B and C on Interceptions and Defenses.  Players will therefore wind up with a selection of less useful items, which could be resold ideally.  The problem with that is infinite input of new goods (from player rewards) and a finite number of output goods (who wants a dozen of any one item?) meant constantly falling values.  In comes the trader, and output is suddenly infinite now.  The issue is that the trader introduced nearly infinite grind.  I can trade in goods for 10, 30, or 50 ducats.  Unfortunately, anything the trader has is worth 300 or more ducats.  That means I have to get between 6 and 30 items to afford one new item.  The lucky player is forced to grind, the common player is forced to grinds, and the unlucky player might have enough amassed loot that they can buy the item.  Of course, that means in two weeks we're back again.  Unless there's a new prime item to grind for, all three of these player types are out there grinding away for more salable items.  You indicate that this is a problem (stated that players were burning themselves out with new stuff every two weeks), so you introduce a rotating list of "old" items.  That makes people that grind heavily angry because their grinding isn't rewarded, and more casual players angry because the amount of new items is halved.  Poor planning has broken what could be a good piece of content, and the void trader isn't the only bit of broken content.

 

Offering your player base little or no communication about objective goals, and constantly changing where the goal posts lie.  This is more infuriating than anything else that DE does.  I've watched the twitch streams for the last couple of months, and the communication with your players is inept at best.  I'd like to share specific examples with you, but honestly it's getting to be a longer list than the content that is in game.  Sharkwing, Yin-yang, Archwing, Kubrow armor, Parkour 2.0, Boss reworks, and frame reworks top my list.  The deadlines continue to slip back, the promises continue to get more grandiose, and I'm done with it.  If you want to promise me something, attach a date.  Whenever it's late, I'll start bugging you about it.  This track record of grand promises and teased features is doing more to damage your reputation than a silent release would.  Liars aren't ever worth paying to do you a job. 

 

Finally, every update breaks almost as much as it fixes.  This is a bold statement, but I'm willing to support it.  You have a screwed up build on Wednesday, push it back to Thursday, and then release a patch at the end of business day Friday.  Over the weekend players get to figure out that they suddenly fall through the levels, are instantly murdered by enemies because you broke one of the powers, or better yet some enemies are suddenly invincible.  That little string of problems was present in the last month's batch of updating.  This weekend bombards have made Zephyr capable of being one shot killed at level 20 (them at 20, Zephyr at 30 with max redirect and vitality).  The Elytron suddenly lost the ability to use thumper.  Certain enemies in archwing couldn't be melee killed, and the Corpus gas reclamation tile set was permeable for spawning players.  This stream of bugs is becoming more and more difficult to accept, and it seems to be because multiple builds are being fused together to create a release.  Your own developer stream highlighted this issue, and it's making the game unplayable.  The recent release from WB should tell you that consumers will stop giving you money if the product they get is shoddy.

 

 

Now that the failings are clear, let's talk.  There are some simple things that you can do to start drawing players back, and they won't require a ton of effort on your part.  I'd like to go from relative easiest to hardest to implement.

 

You've got a bunch of space on the relays, use it.  There's an open room on the relays between Darvo and Cephalon Simaris.  Put the void trader in that room, and have weekly rotating staples combined with daily deals on his items.  Maybe the trader has 4-6 items in inventory at any one time.  Two weapons, 1-2 pieces of armor, 1-2 mods, and a cosmetic.  The weapons shift weekly, the mods shift every two weeks, and the armor and cosmetic switch daily.  There's no more flooding servers at one time to get deals, and players are coming back constantly to check what is up for offer.  Everybody wins.  You get more player traffic, there's less of a spike in server loading, the players don't have to constantly grind for ducats, and nobody moans about the trader because by the time they complain the inventory has changed.

 

This is a radical idea, but maybe you should use your website to show relative progress.  It doesn't have to be 100% accurate, but knowing that the next update is likely to contain 10 bug fixes and two new weapons is so much better than what we've got now.  Might I suggest the following three progress bars:

1) Bug Fixes: Numerical amount of bug fixes currently finished

2) Content: Amount of items being added to the game.  This could include weapons, frames, ability augments, stances, and archwings.  Knowing 3 are likely to come is much easier to build hype over, and only delivering 2/3 means that third item will be on the next content patch.

3) Long Term Goals: Just list out the projects.  Parkour 2.0, Kubrow Armor, and Catbrows being listed as active projects would allow the community to know what they were going to be getting.

Again, none of this has to be 100% accurate, but the current communication with the community is utterly farcical.

 

Power creep is an issue you've already got the tools to tackle, yet somehow have utterly failed at.  First off, use mastery rank as a gating mechanism.  While it is a gating mechanism, it should also evolve with the game.  If I were looking at the game as a whole, I'd plan the gating to 2/3rds (rounded down) the maximum possible rank for a player who has completed none of the time limited content.  Let's look at that plan today.

Maximum Player Rank: 19 (20 total levels, 0-19)

Planned Master Ranks: 12

So we need to make a pyramid out of currently available weapons for 12 ranks.  There are 200 weapons (not counting archwing and sentinels, they will filter into the 1/3 unplanned for).  This means that the mastery ranks should have the following distribution of weapons:

0-37, 1-33, 2-29, 3-25, 4-21, 5-18, 6-15, 7-12, 8-9, 9-6. 10-4, 11-2. 

As the obtainable mastery rank in the game increases, you add a layer to the side of the pyramid, increasing the weapons available at each mastery rank so new players have more ways to level up.  Should a player not like any of the weapons in one mastery rank, they can either rank up with the previous pool or tap into the unplanned 1/3rd of items.  The average player can rank up consistently, the hard core players can get maximum mastery rank, and new players are gated to content than suits them because their weaponry doesn't allow them to tackle high level content.  Your old players can be incentivized to go back to old content by locking missions to a specific conclave value lower than the conclave a new player tackling the mission would have.  You reward the experienced player for returning back with a lower conclave score by offering unique rewards (similar to nightmare mode mods).  By doing this you remove power creep from most low level activities, and allow players to gain additional powers that can only be realized in high level play.  Effectively, you double the amount of play without substantially altering your game.  Players get to feel more powerful, and old content is new again.

 

This final one is going to be harder to ask, because it's insulting.  Either release a tested build, or release new builds on Monday.  Asking for the former is what we should be doing as a community.  At the same time, I believe the people who have some to this conclusion have already left it.  My software developer friends said "This crap wouldn't fly, I'd be fired if I released anything this buggy" several updates ago.  I'd realistically like to ask for a Monday release, so you could patch this crap.  I only get the weekends to play games heavily, so a busted build ruins my two days of play.  Yeah, it's fixed the following week, but that's my weekend playing gone.  That's unacceptable, and a big reason why I'm so angry.  You pump out a fix Friday at the end of the day, and your concern evaporates.  That kind of blase disregard for players is fine is you only want teenagers playing, but free to play requires people to put money in.  I can't justify spending a penny when my service level is terrible.  I haven't spent a cent of my own money on this game in months because it isn't worth it.  I don't get service commensurate with the charge.  That hurts both you and the players.

 

 

 

 

So DE, this is goodbye for now.  You've soured a player on this game, because it doesn't seem like you care enough about it to consider its fundamental mechanics.  I won't pretend that you don't pour love into it, but without some direction and intelligence behind that love you get a hype train running off the rails.  I cannot ride that train any longer, and I am taking a break.  I thought you should know why, because that's something player statistics cannot offer you.  Hopefully I'll be back again in a few months.  I can only say that it's been a fun game, between longer and longer patches of broken road that obscure the fun.

one person leaving wont do anything for the game. cant stand the heat get out of the kitchen.

[SickoSike]

one person leaving wont do anything for the game. cant stand the heat get out of the kitchen.

No one here is working in a kitchen to begin with, the game shouldn't even be considered as some sort of job at all, the main point of playing a game is to have fun.

The OP posted his views and opinions about the game, because the game that was once fun for him has changed into a totally new different perspective for him, and he's expressing himself to have people notice the fact that this game does need to have some serious changes and looks into improving itself.

[Inez]

So Warframe isn't dying . . . but it is hemorrhaging players.

 

 

Now I remember why I quit visiting these forums.

[(XBOX)ShapelessHorr0r]

@Professor:

-blah = more words

1) Warframe's current grind

"you are aware that warframe is ALREADY touted as "farming simulator 2015". The only way to limit the farming would be to massively decrease the requirements for a MR rank up, as well as the number of weapons available. Because right now I'm MR 14 and I can tell you that I've ranked up (and still own) all the frames minus volt prime, and at least 100 weapons, and I probably still own like 40-50. (because i collect, for example I love the karak's sound). Now lets take a moment and realize that MR14 is NOT super high, really to truly be on the end stretch of of completion I would have to be MR 17, 18, or 19.

Warframe has 23 base frames with 9 (soon to be 10) prime frames. It also has over 200 distinct weapons, as well as a smattering or other rankable items (kubrows, archwings, etc). It takes time to even gather the materials, let alone build time. To get to the numbers, it takes 108 hours to build a warframe, assuming you build each part consecutively and not concurrently. multiply that by 33 (number of frames +ashprime) and you have 3564 hours to simply BUILD all the warframes. Then, taking 200 (which is less then the actual number of weapons) and multiplying that by 12 hours for build time, and youve got 2400 hrs, which added together is a whopping 5964 hours to construct near everything in the game. Whoa.

Now I know what you're thinking, "ProfessorZero, I don't build stuff one at a time all the time, I build lots of the stuff at the same time." True, but let me live up to my name. Most players, and I'll go as far to say that all players, are not in a constant state of production. Its just not feasible. So while you may tend to build things 3 at a time, you aren't building 3 things at a time, all the time. In fact, unless you find a nice farm spot like draco, its going to be impossible to rank up any of those weapons fast enough to warrent building the next mastery sponge. So really 5964 hours is a very conservative guess on my part. (5964 hours is just under 250 days, keep in mind.) Additionally, none of this calculation takes into account material acquisition time. Ask anyone trying to get a Boar prime barrel right now, its takes a not insignificant amount of time, and active time at that."

-So this post is just support for the fact that Warframe is already very grindy, and the fact that mastery gating, if the current grind isn't changed, will only add more grind. Again, master gating will only lead to more grind unless the current grind can be repurposed around this new system. There is nothing else to say here, thanks for the help.

2) Conclave max

"Now I can't help but think of borderlands when I think of all the weapons warframe has. Their weapons had a Huge HUGE power difference in them by the end. Hell by mid way thru the first area you picked up stuff that did double or triple the damage of your starting area. 2 hours of gameplay. Having large power differences doesn't break a game, in fact it can make it better. When I suggested the conclave locking of certain planets, it doesn't mean you can't go there, it just means you can't bring your 1300 conclave void build to fricken earth. If I bring a bow, I can one shot everything on the star map. Which means I can clear it (dread masterrace). Hell my SomaP can one shot most everything, and its a machine gun with 1000 ammo. We already have issues with the guns being too strong for certain tile sets, but because DE doesn't want to make it ridiculous, the end parts, the void and the trials, are hit with sub par weapons. "

-Cool...but you counter your own argument here:

"Yeah, you may not be able to take a 6 forma BoltorP, 6 Forma syngammacor, and dakra to Venus, but honestly, do you even need to in the first place?"

-Jupiter is the reason, Oxium is the reason, any resource is the reason. As someone who has played 500+ hours, I expect to farm more efficiently than someone who has played less, but a max conclave would stop that. If you remove that efficiency, you remove a major incentive.

3) End Game vs Mid Game

"And no, the Void is not "mid tier" certainly I don't place T1D as particularly difficult or end tier, but when you get to T3S/T4S then you are in "end tier" level content. Yes the Trials are harder, but the reason lower MRs go to more of the void is because quite honestly, they don't have all the void gear. No matter how hard I try, Ember prime isnt going to drop on Triton or Draco, so im not going to do those missions, when they don't have what I need. You see higher mastery ranks at the high farm locations because they actually need/want to build/level up weapons quickly because they are rather boring. Why spend 4 hours or more doing something you can finish in 30 minutes or less?"

-Due to the endless missions of void, lower tier players are able to access T4 quite easily. Furthermore, think about how few people actually go complete a significant portion if the starchart. If wager that people stop at Jupiter or Uranus because there is no need to complete anything else. This means that, for most players, the starchart lasts them...what...100 hours at most. Then they'll go for the content which isn't boring ----> endless void.

4) "Also, I absolutely see people requesting higher mastery ranks in recruiting, much in the same way they request certain frames. and frames with certain builds. and frames with literally one specific mod. gmag. People recruit who they want, but even when they get their dream team, they still cant get farther then say 20-25 minutes because they are underpowered as an aspect of the very game they are playing."

-Yay you're supporting my argument again. Mastery is a debated topic right now because it only shows experience with the game; however, once the mastery rank becomes a tangible thing, you'll start seeing many, many more requests for X MR and above in recruiting.

5) Clarification

"And to clear up what I think is some confusion here, conclave =/= mastery rank. I want to conclave cap the star chart and master rank gate weapons. The only people who will actually experience an increase in grinding are the ones who just went and got the best weapons, and then never rank up the crappy ones anyways."

-Yes I understand this.

6) Meh Weapons

"On the topic of "Meh Weapons" the weapons are Meh because they are generally just worse versions of something that already exists. Daikyu? kinda crappier Paris (granted, since its not a crit weapon its reasonable, not everyone has all the crit mods). The Hind? crappier Burston. Supra? crappier Soma. Tetra? crappier Boltor. Then theres the cool funky weapons like the paracyst or mutalyst quanta, which could be ok (for example, quanta vandal) but are underwhelming fire power wise."

-You completely skip over the concept that DE is adding content just to add content. Power creep, to my understanding, is an issue to DE, so they will slow it down by creating weapons that are lack luster. DE doesn't care about the 200-odd weapons or at least they haven't shown any interest in them. Those weapons are literally content until the big updates come out.

7) *Sigh*

"what are you talking about primed crit chance mod for pistols is increasing power creep. most pistols have abysmal crit chance, and the few that do manage to rest around 20% would only be able to get up to 60% crit chance with not even as much max crit damage as rifles. Anyone building crit on a pistol might see a power bump, sure, but its not a game changing. And considering how enemies are getting tougher compositionally (void bombarder, manic grineer, literally any mutalist) we should be getting buffed up, and we are a little with the inclusion of passives and reworks"

-It was an example. An EX-AMP-LE. E-X-A-M-P-L-E. DE literally nerfed this thing by making it increase by 17% instead of the usual 20%. Whether we agree with this is irrelevant because this was brought up as an example if DE's worries about power creep.

Edited July 2, 2015 by (XB1)ShapelessHorr0r

[master_of_destiny]

So Warframe isn't dying . . . but it is hemorrhaging players.

 

 

Now I remember why I quit visiting these forums.

 

This kind of argument is the reason why I'm having so much fun here.  You equivocate two separate things, and somehow believe that your equivocation means more than understanding the presented argument.

 

A game dying, and a game hemorrhaging players is two different things.  If you'd like me to justify that point, consider System Shock 2.  That game had poor initial sales (very small player base), but such a rabidly dedicated fan base that it saw fan mods years after release.  Even today, the fan base for the game has been vocal enough to get the game released again on Steam, with the fan HD textures and patches intact.  This is a game that might have had a very small player base, but it kept them together so well that more than a decade after launch it returned to online markets.

 

 

Contrast this with Warframe.  It has been a little over two years.  There most definitely are still people playing the game, and there's even a community dedicated enough to draw fan art.  Any game drawing in that rabid of a fan base isn't dying.  DE is proving that by releasing a $200 "reward" that includes three mods.  If you can get the rabid section of your fan base to pay more money, then it doesn't matter if you've got less of them.  Those less rabid fans disappear into the night, but the game still stands.  Using the hemorrhaging image, you don't really need all the blood in your body.  A pint or two missing will leave you dizzy, but still very much alive.

 

 

Playing Devil's advocate here, but,......

 

One teeny, tiny, little bit of information that seems to have been overlooked with all the talk of money, and playerbase shrinkage vs growth, or quality vs quantity, is:..... how does the release to China factor into all of this?

 

 Do they really care? 

 

I think you missed my earlier comment, and given it was buried in so much explanation I don't feel that's unreasonable.

 

You can either get and retain players, or churn through your current base and move onto a new base whenever you've depleted that resource.  China is an infusion of fresh players and nothing more.  In an ideal world, there'd be a cash infusion to go along with the port to China, but that's going to be a difficult go in my mind.  When you can get a pirated OS for next to nothing, pirated games nearly free, and the government turns a blind eye because the  piracy of IP is fueling your country's rise why would you pay for a "free" game.  On top of that, why would you pay 1200 yuan, or half a month's wages (29000 average annual salary) on any game?

 

My sources for this, so you can make your own conclusions:

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=200+usd+to+chinese+yuan+exchange+rate

http://qz.com/170363/the-average-chinese-private-sector-worker-earns-about-the-same-as-a-cleaner-in-thailand/

 

 

Assuming you see China as a market for much higher volume but lower cost transactions, you've created a schism in your player base.  Imagine your American and European players finding out that they are expected to pay more for the same goods, or worse that new goods are being released to a separate market.  The old players are angry that they are being ignored, the new market is denied the old market's goods because pricing is not in the realm of reason, and you've managed to poison the well of both new and old players alike.

 

 

China will be the point where DE has to decide.  Do they want more players, or do they only care about the "whales."  If you talk about players like they're animals, then you'll get what you deserve.  If DE wants a bigger player base, they've got to change what they are doing. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

To everyone else trying to suggest I frame the debate differently, thank you but no.  I've tried helpful threads.  I've tried suggestion threads.  I've tried bug threads.  No matter what I write, what tone I write it with, and no matter what is stated it is ignored.  When I ask for, literally, the smallest indication that feedback is being monitored I get nothing.  If that's the case, I think DE has very much indicated that they don't care about their customers.  As long as somebody is buying the stuff from their store, the rest of us can go pound sand for all they care.  If you don't agree with me start another thread stating the same things said here, but under a different banner.  When you get some sort of feedback, come back and tell me how wrong I am.  It'll be the first time I've ever seen a developer respond to anything beyond a catastrophic bug thread, and it'd be nice knowing they actually do pay attention to some feedback.

 

This said, I'm not holding my breath.  I've promised to spend money and come back to the game should DE actually respond to my concerns.  I didn't suggest that I was somehow holding them ransom, just that they respond that the topic is being read.  Despite this meager ask, I've got nothing.  If the developer doesn't care about me enough to even tell me to be quiet, then the clear message that they don't care about me as a player has been sent.  If they don't care about me, they don't deserve my money or time, and people should understand that.  Reevaluate whether this game is right for you, and if you want to keep playing go ahead.  Just pause for a moment, and consider if your time is worth so little.

Edited July 2, 2015 by masterofdetiny

[Siekier]

To everyone else trying to suggest I frame the debate differently, thank you but no.  I've tried helpful threads.  I've tried suggestion threads.  I've tried bug threads.  No matter what I write, what tone I write it with, and no matter what is stated it is ignored.  When I ask for, literally, the smallest indication that feedback is being monitored I get nothing.  If that's the case, I think DE has very much indicated that they don't care about their customers.  As long as somebody is buying the stuff from their store, the rest of us can go pound sand for all they care.  If you don't agree with me start another thread stating the same things said here, but under a different banner.  When you get some sort of feedback, come back and tell me how wrong I am.  It'll be the first time I've ever seen a developer respond to anything beyond a catastrophic bug thread, and it'd be nice knowing they actually do pay attention to some feedback.

 

There were a few times I've seen a dev responding to some bug threads. But much more often I see no response at all, even if thread is about some major bug impacting gameplay in a serious way.

It's even worse with feedback. Dozens or even hundreds of threads regarding weapon balance and I'm pretty sure I could count dev responses on one hand. Those threads are being ignored. We are proposing some changes, a lot of people agree that those are good solutions and then DE does something completely different and unnecessary.

 

Communication between players and devs is in bad state. We want to communicate, but most of the time it feels like talking to empty room.

 

My "favorite" example are U16 nerfs. There were some radical changes to Excalibur, Kohm etc, and they weren't listed in patch notes.

A lot of people noticed it and started posting about it on forums, expecting some explanation.

There was no explanation for a long time, then there was something like "unlisted changes aren't intended".

Then guess what, turns out they were intended after all.

 

I can't understand why some people trust DE so blindly when they treat us like that.

[ProfessorZero]

@Professor:

-blah = more words

 

Not gonna quote your whole post when its 90% copy paste my post. Forgive me. 

I fear my some of my points are getting lost in exposition. DE is overly cautious when it comes to power creep. In fact, theres really next to none, whereas enemies have recently received an accuracy rework/buff, as well as compositional buffs (granted, very much needed in the case of infested).

So we both agree that Warframe is super hella grindfest 9000. What I don't understand is why you think Mastery locking would increase the amount of grind in the game. Its not adding guns, its just saying "nope, can't use the top tier until you're the top tier". You're MR14 like me right? so you've experienced the boredom of having to grind through utterly pointless weapons like the sicarus, heat sword, heat dagger, etc. As it stands right now there is no reason to level MR past 8, because thats the point you can use literally any weapon in the game. If i had been introduced/forced to use weapons like the sicarus and the heat sword when I was still doing the star chart and not a veteran, they might have been enjoyable weapons. Heck I used to think the seer was alright except for its zoom, but now its just a "meh" all over.

And I agree, DE is adding content for the sole purpose of adding content. I also agree that DE hates power creep so all the weapons are just time biding weapons until a major update comes out. There will always be weapons that are the lowest of their tier, I accept this, but do they all have to be boring? I have more fun with a lato running around then I do most of the guns getting released. Most of the reason why is because they just seem to be tissue paper guns. yes every so often we can pick up a diamond in the rough with a weapon like the panthera or the quanta, but as a veteran player I don't like sitting on draco and leveling up weapons as quick as possible so I don't have to deal with them. 

 

On mastery and recruiting I say this; Mastery is tangible, it just doesn't have a deep effects past MR 8. Whenever I, and I would argue most anyone else sees a MR3 join the squad, we get a little nervous. No its not an absolute indicator of skill (you could be a headshot king) but it is a show that you probably don't have the mods, not just the weapons, simply the mods to handle the mission. Now I perused your profile and I found this quote from you on the serration thread.

"This removes the choice of the matter. Is it wrong for a MR 4 to have a maxed serration? No, because his/her other mods will be useless. Veterancy already gives a bonus in that you have more sh*t."

Now I agree, there is nothing inherently wrong with an MR 4 to have a maxed serration. I just find it hard to believe even 10% of them have one at this point. I could be wrong, but I don't believe it. Really what I want to get to is "veterancy already gives a bonus in that you have more sh*t". Yeah, a rather huge bonus considering the all the dual stat, corrupted, and other rare mods that require quite a bit of play to acquire. (multishot mods, which are absolutely crucial, come to mind). So while I don't think we should restrict noobs from acquiring these mods I do think that many of them simply don't have them. If someone doesn't have the mods are the resources to rank up all his mods, like a lower mastery player, I think its fine to reject them. How many times do you recruit someone who is way over their head, and dies alot, or does less then 10% of the teams total damage. I frequently carry teams with around 40% of the damage. Having a way to filter out the people, who simply can't handle the mission due to lack of time spent in game, would be great. 

Additionally, if void items had master locks, like say the bo prime requiring MR 12 to use, then you wouldn't really get people trying to go to the void under MR12 to get it, the system would self filter. 

Also, if veterancy gives advantages then why should it matter if you are conclave locked out of a mission if your build is too strong? I went to jupiter for oxium (lol, of all the resources..) with Rhino Prime and Soma Prime only. 697 conclave. I didn't even use corpus elemental damage types, I used nothing but corrosive. Did one round of defense, picked up 11 oxium and one shot everything I didnt stomp, which also insta killed everything. If you're telling me that you need your melee and sidearm for that mission, you are in desperate need of a good squad and a few hours of counter strike to up your accuracy. Thats the only reason i can see for you needing to bring that level of fire power and having difficulty. I could probably go to Pluto, and do absolutely fine. Thats why we should, and can easily succeed despite, conclave lock. If we put a 700 conclave limit on Jupiter it would do NOTHING to the speed you can farm things with a good weapon. Plus, once we do so, we are free to get higher damage weapons with high conclaves. Imagine we got a weapon that does double the damage of the SomaP, but it had a base conclave of 1000. You couldn't use it Jupiter, sure, or maybe any of the star chart, but its not like you don't have alternatives that can already deal ungodly amounts of damage with incorrect builds. 

---end serious----

Yeah, im sure it was an example, which is why I addressed it outside of the main "serious" section of my post. It is completely legitimate to call into question an examples relevence. Now I misunderstood your purpose with it, namely I thought you were using it as an example of DE adding in power creep, and for that I'm sorry. Understand that when I posted

"what are you talking about primed crit chance mod for pistols is increasing power creep."

it probably would have been more clear if I had written

"what are you talking about, primed crit chance mod for pistols is absolutely not increasing power creep"

I was merely paraphrasing what I thought you meant, specifically I thought you thought DE was power creeping. Sorry for the confusion.

---resume semi-seriousness-----

Can you explain to me how MR gating would increase grind. I don't think that's been fleshed out well enough for me to grasp your concerns.

 

[(PSN)jwernecke]

TBH I stopped reading the OP when you said that console players were irrelevant.  

 

"This game is losing players.....oh console?...pfft...they don't matter anyway..."  Yes because acknowledging GAINING players on another console would go against your cause...

[Nebu1ous]

You've touched on a lot of the problems surrounding this game, provided sound enough arguments, garnered enough attention to make a 5 page discussion, and it doesn't seem as if the developers care in the slightest. 

 

DE acts as if they have a good relationship with the community, but in reality they just have a good relationship with the parts of the community they like.

 

Shame.

[Ketsuyo]

I can't stress this enough, ESPECIALLY the rng in the void. Before it wasn't too bad, but now, especially with the addition of Cores and Materials as rewards, it feels that it's been very painful to play. I do appreciate that they are trying to be new player friendly but, as a veteran, there are many issues for end game; not looking for new content all the time, but fixes to what many has been asking for the most. DE does reply and give feedback, and I am happy that they do, but I feel that some of the issues that has been asked to be adjusted or fixed multiple times have not come through.

And yes, DUCATS, I have even tried to farm for ducats, only to come up short with cores, materials and rotation C forma blueprint; having played multiple 40 min rounds of void survival has yielded less than 20 ducats (only got rotation A rewards, but A and B were mostly cores anyways).

I unfortunately have not and will not be playing as often as I used to due to these causes, and only drop by during special events or tac alerts only; most of what I use to play feels unbearable especially trying to obtain prime parts. The game plays great, with a great community, yet end game and rng has me only wanting to turn away from the positives

Edited July 3, 2015 by Ketsuyo

[master_of_destiny]

TBH I stopped reading the OP when you said that console players were irrelevant.  

 

"This game is losing players.....oh console?...pfft...they don't matter anyway..."  Yes because acknowledging GAINING players on another console would go against your cause...

 

You are missing some of the history, and most of the point.

 

I started this discussion in the PC issues thread, and then it was moved to the general thread.  At the time, I was referring to consoles not mattering because they could not play with PC users.  Being in their own worlds, my PC comments may or may not be relevant to them.  As I was a PC player, my commentary was irrelevant to that experience.

 

 

At the same time, my comments still stand.  PC does not matter to Xbox, does not matter to Playstation.  Theoretically the PS4 and Xbox one crowd could out number the PC crowd 10:1, and the fact that they get releases later makes their input on the very most recent developments irrelevant.  PC, likewise cannot make claims about stability on the console releases.  When we get a bug fiesta, QA at MS and Sony prevent that sort of thing from happening.  I don't say that consoles don't matter, only that our experiences are different enough to make accurate comparisons impossible.

 

 

 

 

On to a different subject.

 

Two additional days and no developer response.  The live stream happened again, which might as well be a middle finger to any efforts I've made.  As such, this game had only one option to  win me back as a player.  DE, you won't listen when the player base tries to talk to you.  You won't adequately address the fact that players are feeling burnt out.  You won't even respect us enough to not offer pay to win items in your latest updates (the mods associated with the platinum purchases).  All that I can ask is that you burn.  Burn like the players, and simply understand what it's like.  I'd ask that anyone else reading this and suffering the same grievances follow my example, and not log into Warframe for at least a week from the date of the release of U17.  If we can show DE that the release of content won't continue to bouy them over a sea of negative customer feedback we might force them to respond.

 

But who am I kidding?  EA does this crap all the time, but people line up to buy their latest crap.  I'd hope a more dedicated fan base would be able to rally, but I've already had my hopes dashed.

Edited July 3, 2015 by masterofdetiny

[vaugahn]

Two additional days and no developer response.  The live stream happened again, which might as well be a middle finger to any efforts I've made.  As such, this game had only one option to  win me back as a player.  DE, you won't listen when the player base tries to talk to you.  You won't adequately address the fact that players are feeling burnt out.  You won't even respect us enough to not offer pay to win items in your latest updates (the mods associated with the platinum purchases).  All that I can ask is that you burn.  Burn like the players, and simply understand what it's like.  I'd ask that anyone else reading this and suffering the same grievances follow my example, and not log into Warframe for at least a week from the date of the release of U17.  If we can show DE that the release of content won't continue to bouy them over a sea of negative customer feedback we might force them to respond.

 

No offense, but this is heading into "overly dramatic" territory. The feedback is still good, but taking a lack of response as some sort of personal slight is a bit short-sighted.

[--RV--Meta]

You shouldn't feel like you're having your hopes dashed. DE is going to do what they do, and it's as simple as that, quite realistically. You have your own experiences to forge, and they have theirs. Maybe the game will eventually become everything you hope for, but I honestly doubt that can happen. Perspective is an immensely important part of understanding. Try to see things from DE's perspective, and if that doesn't make you feel any better, try the Zen approach. It is what it is, and you don't have to anchor yourself to it. Let it be. Let yourself be. There is joy out there, no matter where you find it. Your right is to seek it out.

 

As an aside, the best and longest lasting joy always comes from within.

[master_of_destiny]

No offense, but this is heading into "overly dramatic" territory. The feedback is still good, but taking a lack of response as some sort of personal slight is a bit short-sighted.

 

I admit it is drama.  At the same time, it's the only thing I have left.

 

DE doesn't respond to pleasant responses, bug reports, or to questions that they don't want to answer.  Calling for action so that they are forced to take notice is all there is left.  If that isn't clear to you, read back through this thread and note everyone who made excuses.  Note those people that said it was a beta (despite not being so).  Note all those who said it was free to play.  Note all who said that nothing but unobtainable numbers could prove a point that I was not making.  Excuses are what allows something with promise to be squandered.

 

 

I call for insane action, to meet utter disdain from developers.  I'm in the minority, because people generally will moan then leave, rather than take a stance to defend what they appreciate.  I'm starting to see their point.  Anyone raising a problem has a third of the community tell them to shut up, a third agree with them, and the remainder agree but display utter apathy.  I can't add anything more to the discussion, DE isn't paying any attention to our input, and their actions imply that they don't care if they are paying attention.  The only thing I can conclude is that if they don't care about us, I'm not going to care about them.  A return to the community is not necessary, this is EA level hatred of customers.

[(XBOX)ShapelessHorr0r]

@PROFESSOR:

Same as before

1)

"So we both agree that Warframe is super hella grindfest 9000. What I don't understand is why you think Mastery locking would increase the amount of grind in the game. Its not adding guns, its just saying "nope, can't use the top tier until you're the top tier". You're MR14 like me right? so you've experienced the boredom of having to grind through utterly pointless weapons like the sicarus, heat sword, heat dagger, etc. As it stands right now there is no reason to level MR past 8, because thats the point you can use literally any weapon in the game. If i had been introduced/forced to use weapons like the sicarus and the heat sword when I was still doing the star chart and not a veteran, they might have been enjoyable weapons. Heck I used to think the seer was alright except for its zoom, but now its just a "meh" all over."

-For giggles, let's assume that you get access to the Bolter Prime at rank 8, and let's assume that the Boltor P is one of the, if not the, best weapon in the game. On d a low rank here's about these assumptions, he/she will grind until that point. Instead of getting the Boltor P at like MR 5, this player will take the time to rush to the Boltor P. That means Draco. That means that the starchart won't get completed because the player is just grinding at defense. The crap weapons will still be crap, but people will be forced to grind through them via xp farming.

2)

"And I agree, DE is adding content for the sole purpose of adding content. I also agree that DE hates power creep so all the weapons are just time biding weapons until a major update comes out. There will always be weapons that are the lowest of their tier, I accept this, but do they all have to be boring? I have more fun with a lato running around then I do most of the guns getting released. Most of the reason why is because they just seem to be tissue paper guns. yes every so often we can pick up a diamond in the rough with a weapon like the panthera or the quanta, but as a veteran player I don't like sitting on draco and leveling up weapons as quick as possible so I don't have to deal with them."

-Two things really: First, forcing people to use these "tissue paper" weapons is my major point here. Assuming everything is gated correctly, the power jump will be enourmous once people finally leave the crap tier weapons (which comprise most of the weapons), and DE won't rebalance because, as you and I agree, they aren't meant to be balanced. Second, you admit to not liking Draco farming, but the fact is that mastery gating will lead to that and only that. Most weapons in the game and the starchart is just too boring. People will rush to void level weapons/frames/content.

3)

"'This removes the choice of the matter. Is it wrong for a MR 4 to have a maxed serration? No, because his/her other mods will be useless. Veterancy already gives a bonus in that you have more sh*t.'

Now I agree, there is nothing inherently wrong with an MR 4 to have a maxed serration. I just find it hard to believe even 10% of them have one at this point. I could be wrong, but I don't believe it. Really what I want to get to is "veterancy already gives a bonus in that you have more sh*t". Yeah, a rather huge bonus considering the all the dual stat, corrupted, and other rare mods that require quite a bit of play to acquire. (multishot mods, which are absolutely crucial, come to mind). So while I don't think we should restrict noobs from acquiring these mods I do think that many of them simply don't have them. If someone doesn't have the mods are the resources to rank up all his mods, like a lower mastery player, I think its fine to reject them. How many times do you recruit someone who is way over their head, and dies alot, or does less then 10% of the teams total damage. I frequently carry teams with around 40% of the damage. Having a way to filter out the people, who simply can't handle the mission due to lack of time spent in game, would be great.

Additionally, if void items had master locks, like say the bo prime requiring MR 12 to use, then you wouldn't really get people trying to go to the void under MR12 to get it, the system would self filter."

-Yes, the current systems, technically, has tangibility, but that statement alone is misleading. The current tangibility is equal to that of hot butter, while the tangibility if a gated mastery system is equal to that of cold iron. Currently, an MR 5 can attain meta, which allows them to access high level void, which accelerates their grind, which allows them to meta further. Exponential see? The issue is that more tangibility makes that even harder to achieve. It's still exponential, but the startup is slow. It is slow because of that increased tangibility. This will increase the grind until low MR players can achieve some form of meta. That is why I don't like increased tangibility. As for a "filter," a vote kick system would solve these issues far more effectively than gating mastery.

3)

"Also, if veterancy gives advantages then why should it matter if you are conclave locked out of a mission if your build is too strong? I went to jupiter for oxium (lol, of all the resources..) with Rhino Prime and Soma Prime only. 697 conclave. I didn't even use corpus elemental damage types, I used nothing but corrosive. Did one round of defense, picked up 11 oxium and one shot everything I didnt stomp, which also insta killed everything. If you're telling me that you need your melee and sidearm for that mission, you are in desperate need of a good squad and a few hours of counter strike to up your accuracy. Thats the only reason i can see for you needing to bring that level of fire power and having difficulty. I could probably go to Pluto, and do absolutely fine. Thats why we should, and can easily succeed despite, conclave lock. If we put a 700 conclave limit on Jupiter it would do NOTHING to the speed you can farm things with a good weapon. Plus, once we do so, we are free to get higher damage weapons with high conclaves. Imagine we got a weapon that does double the damage of the SomaP, but it had a base conclave of 1000. You couldn't use it Jupiter, sure, or maybe any of the star chart, but its not like you don't have alternatives that can already deal ungodly amounts of damage with incorrect builds."

-First and foremost, it's about the concept. You're limiting veterans down to the level of a new player, that's the issue. Second, you were only three away from the cap. How accurate is conclave again? Furthermore, you skip over why someone would bring other weapons. Farming for XP while farming for resources. Coptering is still quite powerful. Your secondary or primary could be more powerful but be limited in certain situations (eg. Synoid Gammacor and Bows). Heck, why can't I bring my darn Obex for the first few waves! Just for fun!

4) Onto why it increases grind

This is essentially a summary.

1. There will be a shiny and people will farm a Draco-level area until they get it.

2. Achieving some form of meta (eg. me getting the Latron Wraith at like MR 4) will be more difficult, and I think we can both agree that meta breeds more meta. It's an exponential system where the beggining of the soaring near straight line depends on when you get your first piece of meta gear.

3) The difference between the good weapons and the junk DE released (FYI most of the weapons) is a cavernous trench full of bombards. Forcing new players to use the "tissue shooters" isn't exactly great for morale.

[master_of_destiny]

@PROFESSOR:

Same as before

...

 

Your entire argument is based in an asinine assumption.  You compare apples to oranges, but we're looking at a pear.

 

The current mastery system is designed such that each rank requires 2500*MR^2 points to move up.  The amount of experience to get to MR 8 is therefore 160000 points.

 

Assuming that we unlock 1/3 of the planetary system, that's 4932 XP.

Assuming we get to level 30 with three frames, that's 18000 XP.

Assuming we level up two Kubrow, that's 12000 XP.

Assuming we level up two Archwings that's 12000 XP.

Assuming we level up two sentinels, that's 6000 XP.

Let's call the remainder of the points 107100 (it's actually 107068). 

 

This means that between your three weapon loadout, your two weapon archwing loadout, and your one weapon sentinel loadout you've got to master 35.7 weapons.  That is our current system, assuming that you don't switch out frames or unlock the solar system, or heck even participate in an event.

 

Let's call the weapons pool 190 items.  It's about 211, but with exclusivity and retirement the list is about 190.  That means just to get to MR 8 right now you burn through 18.8% of the weapons in the game.  Kinda seems like the assertion that mastery rank gating would add more grind is a pretty dead topic.  We're already looking at a huge gap between a starting player and access to every weapon.

 

 

Care to take this idea to its extreme?  Let's do so for giggles.

1) The amount of xp in the solar system is fixed at 14796.

2) The release of items will roughly coincide with what we have now.  4 Archwings (6000), 31 Frames (6000), 7 sentinels (6000, accounting for guns), 4 companions (6000), and 211 weapons (3000).  This means that 2 years of game yields 909000 XP.

3) The MR leveling system will not change, so MR 30 will require 2250000 XP

 

Based upon this information, Warframe will:

1) Be complete (can obtain MR 30) after 5 years (4.92).

2) Will have 519 weapons upon its completion.

3) Assuming DE is true to their word, and MR 30 will not take absolutely everything ever released when they are done, we're looking at a 6+ year game development cycle.

 

 

 

Now all of the above goes to proving the grind, but it touches on something much deeper.  We have cited MR as a gating mechanism for content, but it is only because MR is already there.  We haven't addressed the fact that MR is idiotically proportioned.  DE has setup a power curve, when what we should be looking for is a sigmoidal curve.  A power curve starts easy, then becomes functionally impossible as you move farther on.  Seriously, the trough between levels approaches insanity between MR 14 and 19, let alone the chasm between 25 and 30. 

 

So, is DE building for the future.  Simple answer is the math would indicate so, assuming everything was magically equal.  Unfortunately, DE managed to completely bork the math is a way that is hard to imagine anybody agreed to.

 

Leveling weapons occurs faster than frames.  Functionally, this means an ideal play style would yield 6 weapons reaching their mastery rank for each frame.  This number jibes well with the 31 frame to 190 weapons.  Of course, that's assuming that every weapon is used and weapon distribution is completely equal.  Looking at the list, they've again done a decent enough job of this.  Really the breakdown is when you've got an utterly trash weapon.  Let's pick on the Vectis.  On paper it is great.  Huge damage, sniper distance, and decent stats.  In reality, the rooms are small and enemies spawn is groups.  Sniping is so difficult as to be completely useless during most of the game, not to mention the huge reloading time.  A poor weapon makes leveling weapons impossible to balance, because nobody runs a weapon they can't use effectively.

 

Additionally, DE has "addressed" power creep with Formas.  To get a weapon to be powerful you need to slap formas onto them, and relevel.  That's great if everything needed the same amount of forma.  In reality, primaries suck formas down like nobody's business, while melee weapons rarely need more than one or two.  Likewise, frames generally don't need more than two or three forma (even less on primes).  Now your weapons to frames balance is completely lost.

 

Then we introduce archwing.  A completely new and tacked on mode, using only two weapons at a time and no possibility for companions/sentinels.  What an absolutely impossible addition to try an fit into the MR system, without simply viewing it as a grind.

 

 

 

 

How does this all mean your argument is asinine?   Reasonably speaking, your points about farming are accurate.  The asinine part of the argument is assuming that it increases grind.  Right now, a player has no reason to use a weapon or frame they can't break the mechanics with.  Really, you could get a Frost, Mesa, and Mag as your three slots and power level everything.  Mastery rank gating would prevent this by forcing people to use new weapons and tactics.  Instead of cheesing Draco, you'd get groups discovering how the mechanics could be used for insanely powerful team work.  Right now, there's no penalty for breaking the system.

 

How would mastery rank actually affect new players; minimally.  They'd have access to a pool of 20-30 weapons on day 1, which showcased entirely different mechanics.  They'd use several of them, to get the feel for everything.  A part of getting the feeling is facing enemies that set you up for success.  That'd be managed by conclave locking.  New players could go into a mission with functionally stupid AI, that would allow them to win.  As they ranked up, the AI would get more punishing so the players would be forced to play better.  We wouldn't need enemies with a battleship worth of armor to discourage extended play, because simply throwing more enemies at the player would exceed the power of the tools at hand.  The player would lose, but only because their tools were insufficient to do the job.  That experience would drive them to want better tools (which would spur them to increase MR).   You still have to do missions to unlock the tools, but you're allowed to experiment with new tools instead of immediately declaring a weapon garbage and power leveling it before selling it off.  Eventually, all of the tools would be unlocked, and the player would combine their knowledge and tools to play the game, rather than use exploits to go around idiotic mechanics.

 

Both mastery rank and conclave locking would require DE rethink their systems.  Power creep would easily be allowable, because old content would not break from somebody returning with bigger guns.  Players returning to old missions feel more powerful, because more difficult AI has taught them to better use the mechanics.  Even if their tools are limited, they can use them in entirely new ways.  Mastery Rank would have to be completely reworked.  If they expected their player base to move past MR 8  they'd have to make it easier to do so, and have good rewards for doing it.  All of this takes forward thinking, which DE has not demonstrated.  They do well with whatever shiny (read: PBR) is in front of them, not the one a mile down the road.

 

 

 

Again, I have to ask whether DE can do anything here.  A competent team would have figured out MR some time over the last two years.  A team with a unified leadership would have said the idea of formas was half-baked, and that it would interfere with balancing everything else in the game.  A team bold enough to embrace power creep would look at threads like this and blast my opinions with factual data before I could even suggest they were incompetently executing the game.  Basically, the gulf between a competent development and the current state of Warframe is so vast that I cannot believe DE won't drive this game further into the ground.  Free to play is not an excuse for a pet project.  Warframe is run as a pet project by DE, so no matter how much enthusiasm they bring to the table we're left with a bad joke.  I'm not laughing, and neither should any of you.

[(XBOX)ShapelessHorr0r]

@MASTER:

"That experience would drive them to want better tools (which would spur them to increase MR)." = more grind---> how do they increase the grind exactly? Oh yes, through farming:

You conveniently pass over the fact that most of the weapons in the game were purposefully designed to be underpowered. A fact that both Proffessor and me agree on and recognize. "Experimentation" will never happen, ever because what y'all continually fail to realize is that players will pick one weapon and stick with it until they've grinded enough mastery ranks to move to a more powerful alternative. Bad weapons will still be considered "mastery trash."

Eg.

MR 1: uses Paris until...

MR4: switches to Karak until...

MR8: switches to Jat Kittag until...

And so on and so forth: there will be zero experimentation, period.

Lastly, "mastery trash" or terms like it are only used by a (size unknown) community within Warframe, the mastery farmers; however, the only foreseeable conclusion to mastery gating, assuming no current systems are changed, would be ALL players referring to MOST weapons as "mastery trash."

:/

[ThePresident777]

I've been reevaluating Warframe since I noticed that everything I enjoy about Warframe gets destroyed.  So, I stopped spending money on Warframe and now I just play it until it's all finally nerfed to complete crap once and for all.

 

DE plays ping pong with the player base by creating high powered content to satisfy the majority then nerfing high powered content to satisfy the minority then creating new high powered content to satisfy the majority then nerfing new high powered content to satisfy the minority then.... over and over and over without end.  Who in their right mind wants to spend money on that roller coaster ride?

 

2/3 thirds of the player base have a tiny amount of content to enjoy.  1/3 third of the player base have an ever growing share of the content to enjoy, yet it's never enough.  The nerf minority must have it all.    That's not evolution.

 

Evolution would be if players could choose their own power level for any content without DE ruining their fun and match make on the power level that they individually want to play at so they don't interfere with each other.  That would be real game developement, solving real gaming problems, not churning the content constantly at the expense of players fun.

 

Real evolution would be if all matches of the same level were equally rewarding.  What we have now in the Star Chart is not evolution.  What we have now is DE playing find the node worth playing.  The Star Chart is largely mastery fodder (node unlocks give mastery) because most of the nodes have terrible rewards.  Then, that vocal minority starts complaining that everybody is playing Viver, so DE nerfs Viver.  Then DE opens up Draco for business.  Then that vocal minority starts complaining that everyone is playing Draco so DE ...........over and over again.

 

Why does the Star Chart have to have Mastery Fodder?  Why Mastery Fodder at all?  Let the players develop their, and match make around, power as they see fit, individually.  That would be real choice in gaming and real evolution of the game.  Adding more mastery fodder is not game evolution.  It's just churning the same content under different disguises all the time.

Edited July 4, 2015 by ThePresident777

[IEpicWolfI]

Lastly, "mastery trash" or terms like it are only used by a (size unknown) community within Warframe,(...) ALL players referring to MOST weapons as "mastery trash."

 

 

 The problem is that majority of weapons -are- mastery trash. Just tell me how many people you see using Lato or Aklato, or Braton- any other " beginners' " weapons that are underrated like that.

 

 You'll see people with Paris Prime, Boltor Prime, Soma Prime so on and so forth, because it takes so little to make these weapons even better than they already are, whereas it takes quite a few Formas to make any under-performing weapon into anything good, so people don't bother. But even then the selected few weapons are still better.

 

 I'm not surprised why 'mastery trash' exist, to be fair, since the process to turn those weapons into anything good is painfully long at times.

 

 Which is kind of sad, all things considered.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

I've been reevaluating Warframe since I noticed that everything I enjoy about Warframe gets destroyed.  So, I stopped spending money on Warframe and now I just play it until it's all finally nerfed to complete crap once and for all.

 

DE plays ping pong with the player base by creating high powered content to satisfy the majority then nerfing high powered content to satisfy the minority then creating new high powered content to satisfy the majority then nerfing new high powered content to satisfy the minority then.... over and over and over without end.  Who in their right mind wants to spend money on that roller coaster ride?

 

2/3 thirds of the player base have a tiny amount of content to enjoy.  1/3 third of the player base have an ever growing share of the content to enjoy, yet it's never enough.  The nerf minority must have it all.    That's not evolution.

 

Evolution would be if players could choose their own power level for any content without DE ruining their fun and match make on the power level that they individually want to play at so they don't interfere with each other.  That would be real game developement, solving real gaming problems, not churning the content constantly at the expense of players fun.

3/3 of the playerbase get to "enjoy" Nullifiers, mutalists, corrupted bombards, parasitic and venomous eximi, MLG Ballistas, ancient hooks and damage reduction, and everything else developed to attempt to challenge the OP items, that only make the game miserable for everyone or boring for those who cheese their way through it.

An unknown number of former players quit, in part because the game was so easy it was just grind without play, or because one player could make them completely irrelevant if they chose to play any other way but the easiest ways, or because those enemies I mentioned above forced them to play CC target practice or 4 spam just to get through missions when there was no fun in that.

[ThePresident777]

The nerf minority has been calling for nerfs to everything high powered in player content since long long before Nullifiers, mutalists, corrupted bombards, parasitic and venomous eximi, MLG Ballistas, ancient hooks.  And DE has been pinging ponging the player base all along, long before Nullifiers, mutalists, corrupted bombards, parasitic and venomous eximi, MLG Ballistas, ancient hooks. 

 

An unknown number of former players quit because they are sick and tired of wasting money on content that DE is going to destroy.  It's no fun constantly having your toys broken and it's even worse when you spend money on it.

 

Keep in mind that the lack of "balance" in warframe means that players who want low powered content have the majority of the choices in content.  They lose nothing when high powered content is in the game.  They can always play the game as they wish.  That means that the only possible motive they can have for wanting nerfs to high powered content is that they don't want to share the game.  That's not a rational motive and it's not possible to evolve or grow a game based on it.

[(XBOX)ShapelessHorr0r]

The problem is that majority of weapons -are- mastery trash. Just tell me how many people you see using Lato or Aklato, or Braton- any other " beginners' " weapons that are underrated like that.

 

 You'll see people with Paris Prime, Boltor Prime, Soma Prime so on and so forth, because it takes so little to make these weapons even better than they already are, whereas it takes quite a few Formas to make any under-performing weapon into anything good, so people don't bother. But even then the selected few weapons are still better.

 

 I'm not surprised why 'mastery trash' exist, to be fair, since the process to turn those weapons into anything good is painfully long at times.

 

 Which is kind of sad, all things considered.

Yes I know and DE knows. As others have agreed, DE creates content for content's sake. In order to prevent power creep, DE makes these new weapons beyond underpowered.

These (most) weapons were never meant to be used by the majority of the community. Hence, my conclusion that mastery gating would be out of whack.

[Tainted_Fox]

there is some truth to what op says here. thought with some of his opinions i disagree with, i understand his view

from reading this post it made me realize that DE markets this like it was a full game, even though its still a beta

[Dubious.Wisp]

I wish there was a blacklist option and/or "rework X because Y, I hate DE and WHY I DO, check out my awesome warframe idea" type forums.

 

So sick of this nonsense, and at the same time, it's thrown in my face like 50% of the time.