Vauban Drop Is Kind Of Unfair

[FierceRadiance]

Actually there is. DE seems determined to ignore any problem that people aren't very vocal about. The alert system is a huge problem, the more people who raise a fuss about it the more likely they are to finally fix it.

Please don't be one of 'those' people who assume that lack of comment/lack of change by the devs means they're ignoring the players.  It's entirely possible that they simply believe the current system is serving the need they intended it to serve. 

 

I don't think the current Alert system is a "huge" problem.  There are many others on the forums who feel the same way, and it's possible the devs also don't feel it needs to be changed.  It's just as possible that they are ENTIRELY focused on pumping out a very highly polished Update 8, and don't have the time to address this issue right now, whether to explain why they're okay with it as-is, or to discuss potential changes to it.

 

In any event, beating this topic into the ground ONE MORE TIME will not force them to address the issue.  You don't have to search the forums very long to realize that it's been discussed by the players quite a bit already.  This thread adds little or nothing to that debate, besides vitriol and division.  IMHO, it should be locked.

[Argoms]

but what if the money we give supports them so they can make those changes?

 

Generally I'm with you actually, but about 100hours in, i figured despite the flaws, it was good enough for me to enjoy 100 hours of the game, so I gave them money to support my next 100 hours. After that i did the same again, I think im entering subscription territory here lol. Also i get to be a space ninja.

 

A lot of game may be released at a AAA price and provide only a few hours of play (anyone remember Force Unleashed 2?)

You can't prove that it does help them make those changes. Unless they come out and say it, wouldn't it be logical to assume otherwise? Alert RNG is something they previously have said that they feel is fine, so in my case I know that they won't make the change without convincing.

 

AAA in no way implies a good game anymore. It simply means there was a large team and likely a publisher responsible for it. Maybe it'll be more polished than "indie" titles, but that's it- only fancily dressing up the fact that core mechanics are likely bad.

 

You can't judge a game by its length anymore than you can a book. Bioshock infinite lasts some 7-9 hours and I still consider it a much more worthwhile purchase than all the hats in tf2 (no, I didn't buy all the hats, in case you were taking that literally). The idea that length automatically makes a game better is what inspires pure-grind mmos, where there is nothing else to do. Yes, they can kill time, but I really can't support projects like that on good conscience. 

 

I know what you're saying about how it's not that you got 100 hours out of it, it's that you've played for 100 hours and not gotten bored- I understand the difference. However, I still feel that time isn't the best way to judge value for money. 

[DAWGUNITALPHA]

RE: paying.

It's like giving a dog a treat after he S#&$s on your carpet. It only makes the dog think he did a good job and he'll do it more. If we stop paying them for bad updates then they'll learn (hopefully).

[Feldgrep]

Putting Vauban as Europa boss would be bad, because it would make the people who bought it with money mad, but they should put Banshee there though.

 

That would make people who bought banshee mad also. I'd say they'll leave Europa open for future operation events or another warframe's boss.

 

RE: paying.

It's like giving a dog a treat after he S#&$s on your carpet. It only makes the dog think he did a good job and he'll do it more. If we stop paying them for bad updates then they'll learn (hopefully).

Yep. Stop paying them and the updates will get better. Or stop coming at all....... There is a difference between rewarding for an action and a paycheck.

[Aggh]

What is unfair about it? Just because you now want it doesnt makes it any more unfair then already existing stuff like heat dagger/dark sword/ dark dagger / ceramic dagger....

 

People never made any threads about how unfair these weapon drops are, because they arent. These threads now only exist because people dont have any patience for new stuff....

That's because those weapons are garbage.  There's a lot of garbage in the alert system that needs to be cleared out.

 

Please don't be one of 'those' people who assume that lack of comment/lack of change by the devs means they're ignoring the players.  It's entirely possible that they simply believe the current system is serving the need they intended it to serve. 

 

I don't think the current Alert system is a "huge" problem.  There are many others on the forums who feel the same way, and it's possible the devs also don't feel it needs to be changed.  It's just as possible that they are ENTIRELY focused on pumping out a very highly polished Update 8, and don't have the time to address this issue right now, whether to explain why they're okay with it as-is, or to discuss potential changes to it.

 

In any event, beating this topic into the ground ONE MORE TIME will not force them to address the issue.  You don't have to search the forums very long to realize that it's been discussed by the players quite a bit already.  This thread adds little or nothing to that debate, besides vitriol and division.  IMHO, it should be locked.

Bahahaha.  A vocal minority at best.  The response to the glaive, Vauban, and when catalysts/reactors were added has made this fairly obvious.  Also, the devs have repeatedly admitted that the alert system is problematic and is a placeholder implementation. They just haven't done anything to fix it since ? alerts were first implemented.

 

You're clearly talking about something you don't know much about.

Edited May 22, 2013 by Aggh

[DissLusive]

I think it is fair that some content is reserved more for the people that pay to play the game.  Maybe its from playing WOT, War Thunder and others, but this set-up seems more then fair to the free play players.  Other games offer an endless grind to unlock features/equipment, DE has done a nice job of letting people build some warframes/weapons and enjoy a large percentage of the game for free.

 

But I digress, I don't post much, I am usually busy playing the game, like many others!

[DAWGUNITALPHA]

I think it is fair that some content is reserved more for the people that pay to play the game.  Maybe its from playing WOT, War Thunder and others, but this set-up seems more then fair to the free play players.  Other games offer an endless grind to unlock features/equipment, DE has done a nice job of letting people build some warframes/weapons and enjoy a large percentage of the game for free.

 

But I digress, I don't post much, I am usually busy playing the game, like many others!

Keeping things sectioned off for the paying crowd makes it pay to win. Which tends to be a bad thing.

[DissLusive]

Pay to win is a PvP game problem, This is PvE, different beast.

[Aggh]

Pay to win is a PvP game problem, This is PvE, different beast.

Nope, even in PvE p2win is an issue since it's not fun to play a coop game while one player S#&$s on everything in sight and doesn't let you get any kills.  The old overload on volt illustrated this pretty well.

Edited May 22, 2013 by Aggh

[Neskartu]

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

 

A random system that has no input from human factors cannot be 'fair' or 'unfair'. Random systems are free from bias. Stop saying they're 'unfair' because all that means is that you're upset that the system hasn't given you everything you want.

 

Also, to address point #4 from the original post, getting one blueprint has 0 effect on the chances of any other blueprint coming up in a alert.

[DissLusive]

Nope, even in PvE p2win is an issue since it's not fun to play a coop game while one player S#&$s on everything in sight and doesn't let you get any kills.  The old overload on volt illustrated this pretty well.

That really doesn't have anything to do with this situation as I see maxed frames running in the starter systems all the time, denying many a kill, and that can be done with any frame, bought or built.  From what I can tell there will always be people who want everything for free (and right now) and there are people who are in the position to pay for things that will put them down for not spending the cash, but that is the business model of free to play games, which although frustrating at times has allowed games to come to market that never would have in the past.  Bittersweet indeed, but more games are appearing on the scene this way and the topic of fairness to free players and impatient ones is a constant theme among them all.

[Guest]

I don't think it's a problem

[Aggh]

That really doesn't have anything to do with this situation as I see maxed frames running in the starter systems all the time, denying many a kill, and that can be done with any frame, bought or built.  From what I can tell there will always be people who want everything for free (and right now) and there are people who are in the position to pay for things that will put them down for not spending the cash, but that is the business model of free to play games, which although frustrating at times has allowed games to come to market that never would have in the past.  Bittersweet indeed, but more games are appearing on the scene this way and the topic of fairness to free players and impatient ones is a constant theme among them all.

There's a big difference between S#&$ting on starter systems and S#&$ting on every system.  Like I said before, the old overload (could clear a level in one go) illustrated this well.  It wasn't uncommon to see people rage at volts or leave a mission if they saw one.

Edited May 22, 2013 by Aggh

[NotaCobra]

I would say

And I might be wrong here

But when new planets are added, the bosses on these planets will give out pieces of new warframes.

 

However, for players who want these warframes (Just vauban right now) the only way to get them before 8.0 is via alerts.

 

 

Consider it not as a stupidly low odds lottery, but as a low chance sneak peak for players who are responding to all alerts to get a chance to get vauban without paying before it's official release.

Again, that's not quite what it is, but if you treat it that way, you feel a little better.

[FierceRadiance]

Bahahaha.  A vocal minority at best.  The response to the glaive, Vauban, and when catalysts/reactors were added has made this fairly obvious.  Also, the devs have repeatedly admitted that the alert system is problematic and is a placeholder implementation. They just haven't done anything to fix it since ? alerts were first implemented.

 

You're clearly talking about something you don't know much about.

Laughing at someone with whom you disagree doesn't really communicate maturity very well.  It does allow arrogance to show through pretty clearly, though.  Just saying.

 

As you state, the devs have admitted that the Alert system needs some work.  When I said the devs may not feel it needs to be changed, eh, maybe I misstated my point.  Sometimes I'm wrong.  (Obviously at least some of the devs thought the current system was a good one - they did put it in the game.)  And maybe I'm being picky when I see a difference between 'needs some work' and 'HUGE problem'.  I'm also aware that the current implementation of the Alert system allows for Vauban to be hard to obtain, which IS one of the devs goals. 

 

So what I 'don't know much about' is that the current Alert system, while on their list of things to fix, still serves at least some of the devs purposes for it the way it's working now.  And what I think I know is that, the wishes of yourself and others notwithstanding, right now the devs have bigger fish to fry with Update 8 than debating the Alert system and/or the Vauban distribution system here on the forums.  Who knows, they may roll a new Alert/distribution system into the update.  But even if they do....it won't be because of the opinions expressed here, in ONE MORE THREAD about it, which was the point I was really trying to make.

 

And so I'm clear, do I not know what I'm talking about because you don't agree with me, because you've written so many posts expressing your opinions, or just because you know so much more than me?  I'd like to understand why I'm so terribly, sadly wrong.

[Emotitron]

You can get just about anything in the game either by playing a lot, or by following the twitter alert system. The goal of game makers is to get players to make a game part of their routine, and the alerts are there for that. It is to keep the game in players minds even when they aren't playing.

 

Like it or not, that is a critical component of game theory for subscription and Free to Play models.

 

People will always ask "Why can't I just have X".

 

The answer is, because if you just got all of the stuff you wanted, there would be no business model. And with no business model, there would be no game.

[Aggh]

Laughing at someone with whom you disagree doesn't really communicate maturity very well.  It does allow arrogance to show through pretty clearly, though.  Just saying.

 

As you state, the devs have admitted that the Alert system needs some work.  When I said the devs may not feel it needs to be changed, eh, maybe I misstated my point.  Sometimes I'm wrong.  (Obviously at least some of the devs thought the current system was a good one - they did put it in the game.)  And maybe I'm being picky when I see a difference between 'needs some work' and 'HUGE problem'.  I'm also aware that the current implementation of the Alert system allows for Vauban to be hard to obtain, which IS one of the devs goals. 

 

So what I 'don't know much about' is that the current Alert system, while on their list of things to fix, still serves at least some of the devs purposes for it the way it's working now.  And what I think I know is that, the wishes of yourself and others notwithstanding, right now the devs have bigger fish to fry with Update 8 than debating the Alert system and/or the Vauban distribution system here on the forums.  Who knows, they may roll a new Alert/distribution system into the update.  But even if they do....it won't be because of the opinions expressed here, in ONE MORE THREAD about it, which was the point I was really trying to make.

 

And so I'm clear, do I not know what I'm talking about because you don't agree with me, because you've written so many posts expressing your opinions, or just because you know so much more than me?  I'd like to understand why I'm so terribly, sadly wrong.

How on earth could there be bigger fishes to fry than one of the core parts of the business model their game is running on?

 

 

You can get just about anything in the game either by playing a lot, or by following the twitter alert system. The goal of game makers is to get players to make a game part of their routine, and the alerts are there for that. It is to keep the game in players minds even when they aren't playing.

 

Like it or not, that is a critical component of game theory for subscription and Free to Play models.

 

People will always ask "Why can't I just have X".

 

The answer is, because if you just got all of the stuff you wanted, there would be no business model. And with no business model, there would be no game.

If players are actually incentivized to play the game, it'll be in their minds just as much if not more. 

 

If players actually feel like they have control over how they're earning items in the game (despite the fact that it can take just as long as the alert system), their outlook on the game will be much more positive than if they're raging at their phone every time an alert pops up when they're busy.

Edited May 22, 2013 by Aggh

[Emotitron]

If players are actually incentivized to play the game, it'll be in their minds just as much if not more. 

 

If players actually feel like they have control over how they're earning items in the game (despite the fact that it can take just as long as the alert system), their outlook on the game will be much more positive than if they're raging at their phone every time an alert pops up when they're busy.

 

I personally think that the ? reward for alerts shouldn't be universal and the same for everyone. A purely random drop that is different for each game session or player would eliminate the hate threads, while still keeping people engaged. I know why they offer preset rewards though, that can only be found via twitter - it keeps people checking in on the game - thus engaged.

A mix of fixed rewards with individually randomized 'mystery' rewards might be a reasonable compromise.

[Aggh]

I personally think that the ? reward for alerts shouldn't be universal and the same for everyone. A purely random drop that is different for each game session or player would eliminate the hate threads, while still keeping people engaged. I know why they offer preset rewards though, that can only be found via twitter - it keeps people checking in on the game - thus engaged.

A mix of fixed rewards with individually randomized 'mystery' rewards might be a reasonable compromise.

Been suggesting that for months  :|

 

And the alert system does keep people engaged-on twitter.  I'm sure the devs would much rather have them in game where they might be tempted to spend some money.

[Fortune_Silver]

I agree with this, as well as some of the alert blueprints that can only otherwise be bought for platinum like the glaive. seems kind of cheap. Buy with platinum, or wait (for a potentially VERY long time) for it to happen up on an alert mission. that you can access. while your online. with enough people to actually FINISH it. 

[Venarge]

There is a difference, Once you get the dark dagger etc. Thats it you got it. its done. You don't have to go through it again to get the next part, and then again to get the next part. Which wouldn't be so bad if it were a planet run like the rest.

 

The alert system, especially for warframes, actually makes it better for time to just play the game less. Wait for a "?" alert do it in 10mins or less, then log out and wait again. . 

 

that is bad for the game as a whole, just because, if a player isn't in your game because there is little reward for doing so, then they will play something else, whilst they wait for a reason to log in.

 

lol wow.

You were on this forever ago lol

I hope the dev's take note of the alert system issue. Its not a good idea in the long run.

 

 

We now have 2 out of 13 frames that rely on rng. I know, this is so evil because people do miss soooo much content.

You either have patience, or you have the money to avoid the waiting time.

Like I said.. Patience became a super power. Same goes for common sense. Just because many create threads about something doesnt makes it necessarily a problem. It rather shows the inabilitiy of people to use the search function...

 

But I have to thank Argoms for trying to gather all the current scources =)

[Archivian]

 

I know what you're saying about how it's not that you got 100 hours out of it, it's that you've played for 100 hours and not gotten bored- I understand the difference. However, I still feel that time isn't the best way to judge value for money. 

 

Your right time isn't the best way to judge a game. Its about the quality+length of time. 

 

Generally though time is a very important part of the equation for assessing a game. If you put 100 hours into any game and come out hating it for bugs or mechanics or whatever, odds are the dev still earned their money and the player is likely a masochist to have put 100 hours into his own waste of time.

 

regardless of the quality of the game, if you play it for  100 hours, there is enough of the game there that is worth your money. how much of your money is up to you really..

 

EDIT: That being said, if your toting your game a "free to play" I guess that is a different circumstance. As the point is, if a player chooses, they never have to pay a dime. The title "free to play" (though the title doesn't suggest a free player should get any rewards though.), 

Edited May 22, 2013 by Archivian

[Emotitron]

Been suggesting that for months  :|

 

And the alert system does keep people engaged-on twitter.  I'm sure the devs would much rather have them in game where they might be tempted to spend some money.

 

That actually isn't the game theory though. Marketing has evolved beyond trying to get people into the game as much as possible (as that isn't really realistic). The goal of games like farmville and such is actually to get players thinking about the game when NOT playing, and to encourage making it part of their daily routine. They are more interested in developing long term players than people who play a ton and burn themselves out on it. That is why you will also see daily login rewards as a norm in games.

Also, the game content is already stretched a bit thin. If players play a ton they quickly run into the endgame wall - which is enough to send many players looking for greener pastures.

[Archivian]

I think it is fair that some content is reserved more for the people that pay to play the game.  Maybe its from playing WOT, War Thunder and others, but this set-up seems more then fair to the free play players.  Other games offer an endless grind to unlock features/equipment, DE has done a nice job of letting people build some warframes/weapons and enjoy a large percentage of the game for free.

 

 

 

 

But I digress, I don't post much, I am usually busy playing the game, like many others!

 

 

The thing is, F2P is assumed  (and to be fair it has been said on many occasions by many different F2P games) that the free player will have reasonable access and ability to get all the same items that effect game mechanics. So basically anything that is not only cosmetic. 

This however (topic of the thread) is not reasonable. It's quite unreasonable actually.

 

Im glad you can go back to playing the game, there is literally no reason for me to do so until there is a "?" Alert. As there would be negligible progress or reward right now.

[Archivian]

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

 

A random system that has no input from human factors cannot be 'fair' or 'unfair'. Random systems are free from bias. Stop saying they're 'unfair' because all that means is that you're upset that the system hasn't given you everything you want.

 

Also, to address point #4 from the original post, getting one blueprint has 0 effect on the chances of any other blueprint coming up in a alert.

 

 

 

What you said about the system actually makes no sense. As its about the implementation of that random system balanced against the other systems in the game. Making it comparatively unfair.

 

As for diminishing chances on the BP loot.

 

I don't know how many items drop from the "?" Alert  but its safe to say there are about 30-35 items and a complete guess.

 

So thats one assumption, another REALLY BIG assumption is that all the drops have the same drop rate (I highly doubt this to be true). The BP may have a 4% drop chance or a 40% drop chance. We don't know so lets assume its all even.

 

so lets say all items have a 1 in 35 chance to drop.

 

all other items are singular. you only have to collect one.

BP drops are 3 items not 1. Any 1 BP drop is useless without out the other 2. 

so you have 3in 35, chance and it will decrease to 1 in 35 for the last piece. 

 

All that being said, you can't invest time to effectively have more dice rolls at trying to get the part you want. The dice rolls in the cases of alerts and especially "?" alerts are dictated the game.

 

In a 4 hour period 1-4 "?" alerts may appear. (sometimes more), but lets be generous, lets say it comes up 10 times. Thats 10 chances i get to roll for my 1-35 chance. 

 

If it were on a planet, I could of done 100 runs in that time, and had 100 rolls for my 1-35 chance. 

It would come down to how much time I can put in and not what the games says I can put in. 

 

Thats a pretty big deal