The Latest Information On Greedy Pull

[ArsVampyre]

Can I chime in to say how bad an idea this is?

 

Let's look at this from different perspectives.

 

If Greedy Mag only pulls for Mag, it suddenly becomes less useful for teamplay. Sure, pull knocks over enemies, but it drags them to you, which is usually undesirable. Sure, there's polarize shields, but that's really only useful vs. Corpus. So this change will take mag, which had been a neglected frame, then vastly improved with Greedy Pull, and puts it back into the 'ehh' range where it will get sidelined again. Instead, it'll likely get replaced with Trinity doing Energy Vampire to feed Mesa instead.

 

Remember Frost's original rework? The problem was that the 'only' use for Frosty was snow globe, and DE wanted to change that. So what did they do? Nerf snowglobe. Did they make the other powers better in some way? No, not really. The result? Frost is STILL only used for Snowglobe.

 

My point is this; too many frames in Warframe have one useful skill. Mesa is one of these; without Peacemaker it's a useless frame. It looks good, but the powers other than Peacemaker are useless, relatively. So of course, everyone builds around that power, and then uses it to it's maximum.

 

How do you fix this? By nerfing peacemaker until people won't use it exclusively? Sure, that works, but the result is that Mesa doesn't get used at all, or it continues getting used in the same way.

 

No, you have to make the other powers useful. Greedy Pull makes Mag useful in missions outside Corpus and early missions where the static damage Pull does is too low to be effective. Dragging all the infested to you is a horrible idea, but pulling all the drops with it makes it a valuable risk.

 

So, why is Draco DE's constant problem? Simple. Crappy RNG. The RNG in warframe is ludicrously stingy. Consequently, the players work around it by warfarming. DE doesn't like this farming behavior, but they act in such a way to encourage it constantly. Not just in the way warframe powers work, and work together (when they do, which is rare because DE doesn't really consider these things), but in how they incentivise rolling the RNG dice as often as possible because of the low-drop chances of things of any value.

 

That's a tough position to be in, because DE wants to encourage us to by Platinum to make up for the crappy RNG, but the player base doesn't want to spend platinum making up for the crappy RNG, so they farm instead.

 

Solutions I propose:

1) Fix the other frame powers to make them more useful instead of destroying the usefulness of the frame powers players like already. Ask the player base for suggestions if you're stumped.

2) Fix the RNG so players aren't encouraged to 'farm' with Draco.

3) Give the players things they want to buy with platinum. For example, bring back Arcane helmets, just like they were before, but give them a toggle to turn their powers on and off; do the same with the little bits of cosmetic armor no one is buying now. I'll be honest, I won't even buy them right now when they're available for ducets. Call me dull if you wish; I care more about changing my frame stats and playing with those than how the frame looks, and it shows in how I spend my platinum. I'm now at the point where I own or have owned every weapon/frame in the game, and have nothing left I'd be willing to spend platinum on. Give me new reasons and I'll avoid the RNG waiting on 'alert missions' and buy that fancy looking but currently useless armor, even if all it does is add armor points to my frame. Give me a reason DE, I want to give you money, but I'm not stupid.

4) If the players are playing in a way you don't like, figure out why they're doing it, and give them other options, and reduce the incentive to play that way.

5) Finally, accept that sometimes the players want to play differently than you want them to. All too often the community here insists on trying to make players play the 'right way', which is just their preferred way. All too often, DE is willing to listen to this. Stop. Let players play how they want, and if it really is a problem, alter that behavior by giving incentives to play the way you want, and reducing them to play differently, and then if players STILL want to play that way, accept it.

 

Frankly, Greedy Pull/Mesa combo is emergent gameplay. I don't think you planned it, but they work well together. Breaking that for the sake of breaking it just makes the player base look for another way to achieve the same results.

 

It would help if you let Mesa move while using peacemaker, even if it's at a walking pace, or maybe make the only energy costs per shot so that holstering and unholstering cost nothing (frequent draws instead). Right now, you actively encourage this behavior with the way you've structured the game. Making greedy pull useless to the team isn't going to fix the problem, it's only going to make the behavior slightly different to get the same results (note; this is what happened because you broke the previous farming method of using excalibur. I'd hoped you'd learn your lesson from that failure to but... )

Edited July 7, 2015 by ArsVampyre

[dual1020]

Alright everyone swap to EV trinities for Draco. Or limbo, or lots of refills. 
Understandable fix, but not the best way to deal with the situation. 

Edited July 7, 2015 by dual1020

[Brynslustafir]

Balancing mods like greedy pull is tricky business. I commend you on taking the time to address this. 

[tocorro]

No one in their right mind will want to recruit a mag in chat when her GP will only work for her. There are a lot of other great CC frames, that can outshine mag.

If anything should be changed, it's not GP but Mesa ability to absorb energy orbs when in Peacemaker mode.

Peacemaker should be changed instead of GP.

If GP will get nerfed Mesa will not benefit from supply of energy orbs either way. So it wouldn't make a difference to most Mesa players, but GP mag would be still viable for the team.

[Faulcun]

Never once have I said "Gee, I wish there was a greedy pull mag here right now"

 

I HAVE said "Gee, I wish there was somebody here who really knows how to play mag"

 

This change is welcomed.

[GAME_PRO24X]

This would definitely solve the issue, but I'm not sure people will take too kindly to it. 

Though, to be fair, it IS called Greedy Pull.

To be fair DE always tells us this is a TEAM BASED GAME

[AoiiToori]

To be fair DE always tells us this is a TEAM BASED GAME

Cause macroing and afking is sooooooo teambase heavy..

[Galeanthropist]

Cause macroing and afking is sooooooo teambase heavy..

Honestly we used Gpull a tonne, not one of us ever used a macro, and all of us were playing the game.

 

If the preferred way to play is scripts and afk, perhaps one should start looking at the cause, rather than the effect.

[EothasianBoar]

Mag is useful when people actually bother to look past "Gmag".

+1

[AoiiToori]

Honestly we used Gpull a tonne, not one of us ever used a macro, and all of us were playing the game.

 

If the preferred way to play is scripts and afk, perhaps one should start looking at the cause, rather than the effect.

And by saying "all of us" means you speak on behalf of EVERY player I presume? Cause I never said EVERYBODY used macros. But it was there, and there was no denying that fact, especially since DE's stance on macros is light due to disabilities, so exploiting it was a given.

 

And on your second statement, the meta dictated that it IS the way to play. By meta I mean recruit chat and them stingy "efficient" players that are now flocking back to their Trins and sobbing that they can't macrobot while doing something else anymore. At least then they'd have to actually stick to their keyboards.

 

P.S. If it don't apply, let it fly.

Edited July 7, 2015 by AoiiToori

[(PSN)PaceBrkr]

What I don't get is people crying that co-op is dead because of the nerf to one situational ability. Mag is one of my mains but I'm mainly using GP for farm sessions. Sitting around for half an hour or more, pressing one button isn't cooperative gameplay. *I've done E Gate and even done the same on Earth for Neurodes and that was incredibly boring.* Being able to coordinate and execute strategies that optimize your frames and gear is cooperative gameplay. It's still exciting to see the crazy weapon/power combos my team can end up pulling off together and we have to stay on our toes when things escalate.

An example of this is: Volt's Speed + Valkyr's Warcry + Rhino's Roar (with or without augments) = a wall of death for both melee and firepower. There's plenty of different frame combinations that players can use to get a job done - that's why we have so many of them to begin with.

I am gonna miss being able to pull in goods to restock for the team during T4D though. That was a lifesaver.

[--G-Force--]

is nerfing just an easier option? , nerfing is taking away and when one buys products to have them nerfed , this is unfair and borderline theft. cant we just buff buff buff??? 

[Faulcun]

is nerfing just an easier option? , nerfing is taking away and when one buys products to have them nerfed , this is unfair and borderline theft. cant we just buff buff buff???

 

I like to think of it as an opportunity to learn how to play better for everybody who cant fathom living without it.

[Chroia]

90% of these responses remind me of how much I miss the days where people had to move around for their loot. Those were the days, funny thing is, I don't remember people complaining that they had to move before.

2 things:

1) Where did 'Carrier master race', 'Carrier4lyfe; etc. come from, then?

2) Not sure that's a valid comparison. 'In my day...' etc.

Can't say no one complained about walking to school uphill in the snow both ways before cars/bicycles existed, because what alternative did you have?

Now that you do know that there are other possibilities, though...

 

 

1) I know its not what people want to hear but DE have a tonne of stuff they are working on, parkour 2.0, star map 2.0 and whatever else they have for 17. Changing the way a mod works from being for the team to being for mag only is a much less time intensive job than changing maps/abilities, 2) but I would expect further changes once DE can sit down and try to rework this. 3) You never know, the new star map may even lessen the need for this type of superfarm.

1) I have no issue with this. BUT

2) Priorities + limited manpower. Temporary fixes tend to stick around much longer than they ought.

3) I don't follow your line of thought here.

Draco's about exp/rep and drops (mods, rare resources, credits).

Void endless farm is about droprates.

The star chart isn't addressing the game's reward structure, afaik, just dispersing the void's rewards to the star chart.

 

It will have no effect on exp gain rates. (Aside from killing Draco, supposedly.) That's the purview of exp/level and spawn logic.

It will have no effect on the reward frequency/schedule. (1 reward per 5 min, broadly speaking.) That's Sheldon's(?) decision.

It will have no effect on no effect on drop rates. See ^.

 

Am I overlooking something?

 

 

 

Mesa is one of these; without Peacemaker it's a useless frame.

I beg to differ.

Mesa + Vitality + Rejuv aura + Stretch makes you damn tanky (against anything that isn't 50+ meters away, or in a Nullifer's bubble).

Until the Shooting Gallery moves to a teammate, anyway.

 

 

So, why is Draco DE's constant problem? Simple. Crappy RNG. The RNG in warframe is ludicrously stingy.

and the fact that playing the game doesn't improve your rate of anything.

As long as the only thing that rewards players is either assemblyline slaughter or speedrunning, those are what players will do.

 

(Honorable mention/exception: Stealth killstreaks.

They're excellent when they work.

Now all they need is to be less niche (invis + 1shot silent weapon), and to be implemented for things besides exp.)

 

 

Mostly agree with the rest of the post.

[chaotea]

and yet once the Devs see that the only 3 frames that are being use to farm again then those 3 are going to get nerfed and over kill the game cause they know whats best for their pockets right?

I dont think its like that. If they where interested only in money they would create a set of good farming augments and sell them for plat only.

The Devs have said before that the work against frames only being used for one situation, and since Gpull came out, mag has been almost solely used as a farmer..

[Eftycchia]

Hi, I'm a Mag, My name's GMag-376200.

 

I've changed everyone's life and I made Mesa even more fat. Nekros' hands is now cramped and Frost is having a perpetual flu.

 

No, we did nothing wrong, we literally just sat there and ate affinity for 2,147,483,647 (oh wow totally legit binary limit bro) days straight in Draco and never excersised at all.

 

Oh well, at least I'm swimming in this pool of 46290 Orokin Cells that I will soon miss due to the fact that I'm utterly useless now. I'll go back to my dojo and cry myself to sleep on Excal.

 

... At least I still have Crewmens and MOAs at Pluto for me to hug and play with. They're nice, friendly and welcoming.

 

[Jangkrik]

Wish they only nerfed it by adding LoS and/or preventing orb grabs. Mag is (again) tossed to the dumpster for non endgame/event missions.

[MasterNalgas]

I wonder who is going to be the next victim, if DE keeps the policy of nerfing warframe abilities and augments, every time someone invents a way of optimizing farming with them.

 

"Macros" and "loot caves" will always exist! Doesn't matter how much nerfs you do! Instead you should think about why people use them on the first place, why people go through boring static macros instead of doing more fun stuff. If you figure that out, you will never need to nerf an ability ever again!

I will give you a small hint... Too Much Grinding! 

Edited July 8, 2015 by MasterNalgas

[Culaio]

I dont think its like that. If they where interested only in money they would create a set of good farming augments and sell them for plat only.

The Devs have said before that the work against frames only being used for one situation, and since Gpull came out, mag has been almost solely used as a farmer..

It wasnt one use only, I saw a lot of people using gmag in survival while not camping, gmag was pretty good alternative to trinity in missions like this(and no gmag wasnt only spaming pull whole mission, it was also using other abilties), and while trinity is more reliable with proving energy, gmag could also provice ammo to the team. The irony is that greedy pull was augment who had TWO uses supporting team and farming and now has only ONE: farming.

Edited July 8, 2015 by Culaio

[(PSN)Perpetual_Legend]

Thanks a lot DE. <sarcasm>  Way to support the "team" aspect.   Ya know, for a co-op orientated game why the h3ll would you gimp the use of greedy pull to only help farming/ solo players?   STUPID move IMHO.  

 

{rant over}

[chaotea]

It wasnt one use only, I saw a lot of people using gmag in survival while not camping, gmag was pretty good alternative to trinity in missions like this(and no gmag wasnt only spaming pull whole mission, it was also using other abilties), and while trinity is more reliable with proving energy, gmag could also provice ammo to the team. The irony is that greedy pull was augment who had TWO uses supporting team and farming and now has only ONE: farming.

I thought about it, and it would have made more sense to just stop gpull from effecting energy.

[Kamachi]

I'm glad Greedy Pull no longer pulls for the entire team, it just encouraged semi afk farming and sheer dullness.

[orvos]

A nerf to grinding is what they ought to do... Removing the ability to pull all the drops for the team to pick them up was a greasy thing to do.

Edited July 8, 2015 by orvos

[Faulcun]

A nerf to grinding is what they ought to do... Removing the ability to pull all the drops for the team to pick them up was a greasy thing to do.

 

This is a free to play game. The grind is there to encourage people to buy things instead, if you dont want to put up with it. Like the wonderful prime access that was just released, for example. Without this cash flow, there is no more game to make.

 

This is not directed at you specifically, because there are a ton of people who make similar comments. But does everybody forget that simple fact? This is the business model of this product. This is what allows them to continue to develop for this game. Any adjustment can have adverse affects on monetary income, and needs to be approached with the utmost care.

 

Or is it that nobody cares? Then if people are aware of this fact, and still ask for change, are they thinking far enough ahead to realize they are asking for the game to end, or at least run the possibility of significantly reducing its lifespan? For what? instant gratification? Is it ignorance?

 

I dont get it.

[motorfirebox]

This is a free to play game. The grind is there to encourage people to buy things instead, if you dont want to put up with it. Like the wonderful prime access that was just released, for example. Without this cash flow, there is no more game to make.

 

This is not directed at you specifically, because there are a ton of people who make similar comments. But does everybody forget that simple fact? This is the business model of this product. This is what allows them to continue to develop for this game. Any adjustment can have adverse affects on monetary income, and needs to be approached with the utmost care.

 

Or is it that nobody cares? Then if people are aware of this fact, and still ask for change, are they thinking far enough ahead to realize they are asking for the game to end, or at least run the possibility of significantly reducing its lifespan? For what? instant gratification? Is it ignorance?

 

I dont get it.

Requiring effort to get items != grind to get items. Doing the same thing over and over to get a reward is a grind. Doing a bunch of different stuff to get a reward, so that you don't burn yourself out on one particular activity, is not a grind (or at least much less of a grind).

 

Right now, the best way to level up weapons and syndicates is to grind Draco. Nerfing the grind means making it so that you can get just as much rep/xp from missions other than Draco—or, really, other than endless mission types in general.

Edited July 9, 2015 by motorfirebox