Leave Ash And His Ability's Alone He Does Not Need Your Help

[(XBOX)Brennon Cook]

I play Trinity and use 3 abilities constantly. The 4th I use situationally.

You're not spamming 4, leave my squad, bro.

[WernerShadow]

Alright...

"90+ minutes in a T4 survival. Level 160 heavy gunners have over 345,000 health. This isn't counting Eximus type heavy gunners(1 spawns with every group) which have over 600,000 health and Nullifiers. A max power bladestorm with 3x melee combo, which Nullifiers WILL interrupt your combo counters, only does roughly 50-60k including bleed damage.

Throwing out arbitrary numbers just because you think they 'feel' right isn't truth, its misleading. And you would get away with it too, since most people will never go that long. Much less with Ash; but anyone who has been that long with any frame will know what ridiculous bullet sponges everything becomes past level 90. And how it takes focus-fire headshots from 2-3 squad members to bring down one eximus at level 150+."

Don't even tell me how to play Ash if you're going to tell me to spam 4, when a SS build is significantly better.

Also, don't tell me "no one goes past 90 minutes", I used to consistently go to 3 hours before the game began to be unplayable with all the bugs on console.

Wow your math is bad if i modded him with no extra damage the base is 2000 and you will get a 700 bleed proc over 6 seconds for 7 ticks 4900 damage times that with 18 attacks 124,200 damage add the x3 melee multiplayer 372,600 makes your tiny weapon look like its not even there

[Nira]

Really? This is the first post I see talking about an Ash rework, not like the hundred threads hating about LImbo, Mesa and whatelse.

 

This is the third I've seen, I think. They're flash-in-the-pan by nature.

 

Honestly I think Ash is fine where he is. He has a pretty powerful selection of augments, and a set of abilities that complement each other quite nicely. Blade Storm might not do as much DPS as a viral-modded Dread, but it's not exactly uncommon for a weapon to out-DPS an ability in Warframe. Not to mention the fact he's invincible for the entire casting duration.

Edited July 12, 2015 by Dualice

[(XBOX)Brennon Cook]

Wow your math is bad if i modded him with no extra damage the base is 2000 and you will get a 700 bleed proc over 6 seconds for 7 ticks 4900 damage times that with 18 attacks 124,200 damage add the x3 melee multiplayer 372,600 makes your tiny weapon look like its not even there

Are you actually serious? Are you planning on getting a x3 multiplier in a Void with maxed blind rage and duration mods on? You're funny.

And even then, that still won't kill an Eximus Heavy Gunner, and it will take you 30 seconds to cast, and you'll make the enemies you target invincible to your entire team, thus making your "incredible" squad DPS terrible.

Edited July 12, 2015 by (XB1)Spartan Cook

[-CCC-Secret]

I think rework threads are fun for people who make them. It's like writing a fanfiction. I don't think it's a demand or anything. They just want to air out their ideas and share it with everyone. The OP telling people to stuff it is being rather rude to those with ideas. Albeit some might be terrible suggestions and down right cringe worthy, but that's to be expected.

Well I get where you are going with here, but that's not an excuse to randomly rework abilities/warframes that don't need reworking. The only reason why DE is reworking is because of the end game.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

You're not spamming 4, leave my squad, bro.

Spamming Trinity's 4 would be a waste.  Her 4 can give you full health and shields then 99% damage reduction for the duration. You can cast it again, even if it is already active, basically wasting it if you spam it. Link makes her basically immune to staus ailments, so she can keep healing you.  Link's damage is also infinite scaling.  Then Energy Vampire refill everyone's energy at a rapid pace. 

 

You have to spam on a rotation.  Energy Vamp until full energy, Link, Castanas at your feet, Blessing, Energy Vamp spam until Blessing ends - repeat

[(XBOX)Brennon Cook]

Spamming Trinity's 4 would be a waste.  Her 4 can give you full health and shields then 99% damage reduction for the duration. You can cast it again, even if it is already active, basically wasting it if you spam it. Link makes her basically immune to staus ailments, so she can keep healing you.  Link's damage is also infinite scaling.  Then Energy Vampire refill everyone's energy at a rapid pace. 

 

You have to spam on a rotation.  Energy Vamp until full energy, Link, Castanas at your feet, Blessing, Energy Vamp spam until Blessing ends - repeat

It's a 4. Spam it. That's what 4's are 4.

[SicSlaver]

Well I get where you are going with here, but that's not an excuse to randomly rework abilities/warframes that don't need reworking. The only reason why DE is reworking is because of the end game.

I'm not sure what end game is, but currently I don't see anyone recruiting Ash for Trials. I think a Warframe that is only a one skill spammer becomes rather dull to play with. I do hope Ash's other skills bring more utility.

[(XBOX)Brennon Cook]

I'm not sure what end game is, but currently I don't see anyone recruiting Ash for Trials. I think a Warframe that is only a one skill spammer becomes rather dull to play with. I do hope Ash's other skills bring more utility.

Which is why I'm fighting for him to be changed - not even buffed. He has no utility outside of team smokescreen, but it's not enough to warrant him anything unless you're camping in a corner trying to do 2 hours in a t4 survival.

[(XBOX)Brennon Cook]

Anyways, I'm done with this conversation before it hits the fan. The OP is fighting for Ash not to change like he's an independent black woman, and using a DPS calculator to provide evidence as to why spamming 4 with him is viable.

Regardless of opinion, we're all Ash fans. I love you. Goodnight.

Ash needs utility, not a buff.

Again, I'll throw out my concept:

Bladestorm casts three clones that frenzy, leaving Ash on the ground to continue shooting and interacting with the squad

Bladestormed enemies can be shot at by teammates to increase squad damage.

Shurikan has innate lifestrike.

I seriously don't know how you could not appreciate my concept.

Edited July 12, 2015 by (XB1)Spartan Cook

[(PSN)theloner255]

As it stands at the moment with Ash, He is quite dependent on other frames. Have banshee with Savage Silence and Excalibur with Radiant Finish and you got one nasty Blade storm if built for power strength. Not saying that's a solution to any problems with Ash, but it certainly does help on the damage front.

 

He's still a decent frame in my opinion and yeah could probably do with a tweak (Don't ask me what tweaks, I have no idea at this point), but for me he's manageable at the moment. Heck even his Blade storm works as CC to some degree(Not the best of ones compared to other frames abilities mind). If the enemies aren't dead, they're stuck in the animations of getting stabbed at least. Used that a few times to keep enemies at bay if someone else is reviving a friend. Obviously this can't compare to other more CC orientated powers but it can help a little

 

That's just my thoughts based on my experiences playing with Ash

 

Edit: The idea of Blade stormed targets being able to be hit by team mates would be interesting. Just wondering how it would affect blade storm if the enemies were killed before they get stabbed in their face

Edited July 12, 2015 by (PS4)theloner255

[(PSN)bLaiiSe_go_brrr]

If you're not going to contribute to the conversation then you should read the forum rules or don't say anything to begin with.

I won't contribute because I agree with the OP.

When I can solo an 80 min T3Surv with melee only I don't consider a frame a bad one but an "end game" frame. He's damage based and he's good at that.

2 Arcane Trickeries make him even better but I know a lot of people can't afford to do that.

[Evan-0-matic]

Which is why I proposed that Ash should instead cast out 3 decoys to clear a room instead of going in a frenzy himself, this would fix the glitch, this would give Ash crazy CC, and it would allow Ash to stay on the ground continuing to help the team by shooting enemies.

Also, his shurikan needs innate life strike.

That's how I'd like Ash to be buffed.

This... All day.

Perfect solution/ ideas!

[SicSlaver]

Anyways, I'm done with this conversation before it hits the fan. The OP is fighting for Ash not to change like he's an independent black woman, and using a DPS calculator to provide evidence as to why spamming 4 with him is viable.

Regardless of opinion, we're all Ash fans. I love you. Goodnight.

Ash needs utility, not a buff.

Again, I'll throw out my concept:

Bladestorm casts three clones that frenzy, leaving Ash on the ground to continue shooting and interacting with the squad

Bladestormed enemies can be shot at by teammates to increase squad damage.

Shurikan has innate lifestrike.

I seriously don't know how you could not appreciate my concept.

Well I don't like his clones. They look rather bad, like Loki's decoy. I'd rather not see more of them.

[Zareek]

Is that your mentality? "Leave him as trash, leave him as a low level frame and useless in the endgame". I have 300 in mission hours on Ash, and he's trash. His amazing Bladestorm ability is pretty terrible against level 90 enemies, and his SS only lasts 8 seconds at base. Not to mention even his Primed Version is super fragile, as he has no armour.

Ash needs a rework, if this game is going down the path of providing an end game then all frames need to be viable for it. End of discussion.

lvl 90+ enemies is a very thin layer of the content available to players. And a lot of players including ME don't really care for very high level content, as I personally find it unrewarding. That means that everything below is something Ash can handle. I don't think a frame that is balanced for 90% of all the content to be trash.

 

With that being said, I do think he could be IMPROVED to give him more synergy possibilities, and as I said before "follow the flow of the game". but it's hardly a high priority, since he IS capable at handling most content anyways.

 

The only reason why people want him reworked is because they NOW care about him due to his nice new look, but they STILL don't like his simple yet lethal abilities. He is also one of the frames that most people consider the "real ninja of Warframe" and some people can't handle that so they feel the need to trash talk him down, kinda like how a regular dude feels threatened by someone big at the gym and starts to degrade him.

Edited July 12, 2015 by Zareek

[-CM-Valen]

There's nothing wrong with Ash.

Period.

[S.T.M.P.D]

Just gonna throw this out there: An ability that is an extended cutscene and then proceeds to take away all control from you is a bad ability. It's a lot like Peacemaker - whether or not it's powerful or effective, it's fundamentally flawed.

[-CCC-Secret]

lvl 90+ enemies is a very thin layer of the content available to players. And a lot of players including ME don't really care for very high level content, as I personally find it unrewarding. That means that everything below is something Ash can handle. I don't think a frame that is balanced for 90% of all the content to be trash.

 

With that being said, I do think he could be IMPROVED to give him more synergy possibilities, and as I said before "follow the flow of the game". but it's hardly a high priority, since he IS capable at handling most content anyways.

 

The only reason why people want him reworked is because they NOW care about him due to his nice new look, but they STILL don't like his simple yet lethal abilities. He is also one of the frames that most people consider the "real ninja of Warframe" and some people can't handle that so they feel the need to trash talk him down, kinda like how a regular dude feels threatened by someone big at the gym and starts to degrade him.

THIS^

 

Doing runs with 90+ enemies isn't what an average person would do. That's a thing you would do to challenge yourself/team and post on youtube or something. It would be easier/safer to do 3 T4 runs of wave 20 than doing T4 runs of wave 60, they yield the same reward. Unless you add rewards as enemies scale then going that far isn't really worth it as it is risky. 

[SicSlaver]

Just gonna throw this out there: An ability that is an extended cutscene and then proceeds to take away all control from you is a bad ability. It's a lot like Peacemaker - whether or not it's powerful or effective, it's fundamentally flawed.

Oh! Really good point! Yeah, this game have many flaws with taking player agency away from you. This explains why Blade Storm didn't sit right with me and how much I wanted it to be changed.

[Draciusen]

Ash is great but his ultimate leaves something to be desired in the gameplay department, i.e. the lack of interaction. While it's great being an invincible teleporting nuke of a ninja, I did bring other weapons into the mission that I would like to use, but his Bladestorm is too good to not use often. His lack of CC in the rest of his abilities (Smokescreen stagger barely counts since you're performing the animation while it staggers) means that you're going to be spamming Bladestorm or Smokescreen often as well, to avoid damage. Or even Teleport-finisher; which IMO feels more like a ninja than Bladestorm, but is completely outclassed by the latter.

 

Other frames have nukes, but none of them really take you out of the game and turn you into a spectator like Ash does. But taking away the cinematic gets rid of one of his most signature perks (stylish assassintions), and would also remove the invulnerability perk as well, while turning him into an even more boring press 4 to insta-kill like Saryn or old Excalibur. Due to that, nothing short of a near-total rework can give Ash a new and unique playstyle while trying to preserve his theme and signature abilities.

 

Touching on another infamous press-4-to-win frame, Mesa's Peacemaker is absurdly strong; but at least it makes you feel like a gunslinger in a shootout, at the cost of your teammate's fun. You're rooted in place, but you can decide when to end it. You've got an aimbot, but you're the one pulling the trigger. The fluid animations and effects only enhance the experience. Sure in the end all you're doing is standing there and pressing a button, but it has just enough player interaction that make you feel like nothing short of a badass. Ash's Bladestorm just leaves you there watching, and waiting until you regain control of your character.

 

From a balance standpoint however, Ash is fine. He does insane damage and has very high survivability; at the cost of having virtually no CC or significant team buffs. There are other frames like Frost (being worked on), Ember (she's still meh), and Mag (maybe, she looks to be the new Excal of nerfs) that are in more need of a pass on abilities.

 

So while Ash doesn't need any changes right now, I'd love for DE to perhaps look at updating his abilities in the future to improve the player's experience while keeping within his theme.

Edited July 12, 2015 by Draciusen

[(XBOX)Brennon Cook]

There's nothing wrong with Ash.

Period.

Nice opinion and supportive argument.

Ash is great but his ultimate leaves something to be desired in the gameplay department, i.e. the lack of interaction. While it's great being an invincible teleporting nuke of a ninja, I did bring other weapons into the mission that I would like to use, but his Bladestorm is too good to not use often. His lack of CC in the rest of his abilities (Smokescreen stagger barely counts since you're performing the animation while it staggers) means that you're going to be spamming Bladestorm or Smokescreen often as well, to avoid damage. Or even Teleport-finisher; which IMO feels more like a ninja than Bladestorm, but is completely outclassed by the latter.

 

Other frames have nukes, but none of them really take you out of the game and turn you into a spectator like Ash does. But taking away the cinematic gets rid of one of his most signature perks (stylish assassintions), and would also remove the invulnerability perk as well, while turning him into an even more boring press 4 to insta-kill like Saryn or old Excalibur. Due to that, nothing short of a near-total rework can give Ash a new and unique playstyle while trying to preserve his theme and signature abilities.

 

Touching on another infamous press-4-to-win frame, Mesa's Peacemaker is absurdly strong; but at least it makes you feel like a gunslinger in a shootout, at the cost of your teammate's fun. You're rooted in place, but you can decide when to end it. You've got an aimbot, but you're the one pulling the trigger. The fluid animations and effects only enhance the experience. Sure in the end all you're doing is standing there and pressing a button, but it has just enough player interaction that make you feel like nothing short of a badass. Ash's Bladestorm just leaves you there watching, and waiting until you regain control of your character.

 

From a balance standpoint however, Ash is fine. He does insane damage and has very high survivability; at the cost of having virtually no CC or significant team buffs. There are other frames like Frost (being worked on), Ember (she's still meh), and Mag (maybe, she looks to be the new Excal of nerfs) that are in more need of a pass on abilities.

 

So while Ash doesn't need any changes right now, I'd love for DE to perhaps look at updating his abilities in the future to improve the player's experience while keeping within his theme.

So you're not concerned that in a squad based shooter there are frames that have zero squad bases attributes and are essentially useless in a squad based shooter?

I get what you're coming from. But I don't get what DE is coming from.

[Draciusen]

Nice opinion and supportive argument.

So you're not concerned that in a squad based shooter there are frames that have zero squad bases attributes and are essentially useless in a squad based shooter?

I get what you're coming from. But I don't get what DE is coming from.

 

The entire game pretty much revolves around killing things, with a few exceptions (Spy, Hijack, Sabotage, Deception, etc). That being said, Ash's role in a squad is to simply be an near-unkillable killing machine. He doesn't help out like Banshee or Nova by amplifying damage, or locking down groups of enemies like Nyx or Loki; but he kills enemies, and he's damn good at doing it.

 

What he brings to the team is nothing more than the basics of just having a teammate that most people take for granted. He kills enemies and revives allies, and you're not going to see him downed often like a Loki or Nova.

 

Not everybody has to bring overwhelming amounts of team buffs and debilitating CC, the basics can just be enough. Ash isn't the best room nuker, and he's definitely not the tankiest frame, nor is he the most mobile; but he's got all 3 in a single package.

 

There are times when I play Chroma that I wish I could just get all these enemies off my back quickly. Or when I'm playing Loki and annoyed when I get one-shot through crossfire even when stealthed. Or wishing I could get someplace faster as Banshee. About the only regret I have on Ash is staring at the screen wishing I could do something besides watch a cinematic.

Edited July 12, 2015 by Draciusen

[WernerShadow]

Are you actually serious? Are you planning on getting a x3 multiplier in a Void with maxed blind rage and duration mods on? You're funny.

And even then, that still won't kill an Eximus Heavy Gunner, and it will take you 30 seconds to cast, and you'll make the enemies you target invincible to your entire team, thus making your "incredible" squad DPS terrible.

max blind rage hahaha intensify with rising storm gives me more than i need i can add transient fortitude if i dont plan to use smoke screen making my blade storm cost only 25 energy considering i have a primed flow on i can spam it 16 times if i wanted to but i prefere using all 4 skills during a match. With my current build ill damage a single unite hit by balde storm once for a good 34,500 damage over 6 seconds if i hit the same target 18 times he takes 621,000 in 6 seconds if i add transient fortitute in ill probably end up doing 1 mil damage so no they wont be a crowd left to worry about

[Ishki88]

It does finisher damage, that makes a big difference when it comes to enemy scaling, especially at high level + that bleed proc. 

 

How many ults scale better when it comes to the damage type plus proc? Long past the point where most abilities are hardly scratching them no matter what their power strength or base damage is, Ash is bypassing so much of their scaling with finisher damage and still killing them. 

 

And you can do a Rising Storm build that's balanced and allows for the regular/synergistic use of ALL of his abilities. You'll need to be balanced actually, because Rising Storm needs duration to work well, so you have to put together a well thought out build. You can just do a 4 spam build to utilize Rising Storm properly imo. 

Post Rising Storm Duration build :^)

[WernerShadow]

Ash is great but his ultimate leaves something to be desired in the gameplay department, i.e. the lack of interaction. While it's great being an invincible teleporting nuke of a ninja, I did bring other weapons into the mission that I would like to use, but his Bladestorm is too good to not use often. His lack of CC in the rest of his abilities (Smokescreen stagger barely counts since you're performing the animation while it staggers) means that you're going to be spamming Bladestorm or Smokescreen often as well, to avoid damage. Or even Teleport-finisher; which IMO feels more like a ninja than Bladestorm, but is completely outclassed by the latter.

Other frames have nukes, but none of them really take you out of the game and turn you into a spectator like Ash does. But taking away the cinematic gets rid of one of his most signature perks (stylish assassintions), and would also remove the invulnerability perk as well, while turning him into an even more boring press 4 to insta-kill like Saryn or old Excalibur. Due to that, nothing short of a near-total rework can give Ash a new and unique playstyle while trying to preserve his theme and signature abilities.

Touching on another infamous press-4-to-win frame, Mesa's Peacemaker is absurdly strong; but at least it makes you feel like a gunslinger in a shootout, at the cost of your teammate's fun. You're rooted in place, but you can decide when to end it. You've got an aimbot, but you're the one pulling the trigger. The fluid animations and effects only enhance the experience. Sure in the end all you're doing is standing there and pressing a button, but it has just enough player interaction that make you feel like nothing short of a badass. Ash's Bladestorm just leaves you there watching, and waiting until you regain control of your character.

From a balance standpoint however, Ash is fine. He does insane damage and has very high survivability; at the cost of having virtually no CC or significant team buffs. There are other frames like Frost (being worked on), Ember (she's still meh), and Mag (maybe, she looks to be the new Excal of nerfs) that are in more need of a pass on abilities.

So while Ash doesn't need any changes right now, I'd love for DE to perhaps look at updating his abilities in the future to improve the player's experience while keeping within his theme.

I like watching him pull mobs apart with his cool looking assassination moves and there are so many frame that one would think not every frame has to get a rework its only because they primed him he now gets any actual attention here