Please Tweak [Ember] World On Fire With One Simple Change

[Xarteros]

I love Ember, but I feel World on Fire makes it impossible to build basically anything with her. World on Fire currently uses both a duration AND energy drain per second.

The issue is that if you build for high efficiency, for a more spam-based caster Ember, you sacrifice a lot of duration and your World on Fire has to be constantly re-cast, making it pretty useless since you're incredibly vulnerable between castings. You could beef up the duration a bit, but that sacrifices range and/or power, or other mods

If you build for duration, you get good use out of World on Fire, Fireblast and Accelerant, but then the energy drain of World on Fire impacts you pretty heavily.

You could argue that it's ok the way it is, but there really isn't any reason to have both duration AND energy drain. It would let people have more viable builds to suit their playstyle better, and it means one less warframe sits on a shelf collecting dust in the shadow of so many superior warframes.
 

[user10000]

The issue is that if you build for high efficiency, for a more spam-based caster Ember, you sacrifice a lot of duration and your World on Fire has to be constantly re-cast, making it pretty useless since you're incredibly vulnerable between castings. 

 

uh... accelerant stun? it also speeds up cast time now.

 

and most ults are instant anyways and I don't see people complaining that they have to keep pressing 4 for an effect. When doing a low duration build I consider the time that I do have a grace period for killing off enemies that may not have been in my radius.

 

If you build for duration, you get good use out of World on Fire, Fireblast and Accelerant, but then the energy drain of World on Fire impacts you pretty heavily.

 

i don't really see how a very high duration build helps all of them. Fire Blast will persist but won't go anywhere. Accelerant will buff your cast speed - that's nice, I guess... and the energy drain of WoF impacts you pretty heavily.

 

e:words

 

e2: fireball is underrated

Edited July 20, 2015 by user10000

[(PSN)Dan_Aria]

I love Ember, but I feel World on Fire makes it impossible to build basically anything with her. World on Fire currently uses both a duration AND energy drain per second.

The issue is that if you build for high efficiency, for a more spam-based caster Ember, you sacrifice a lot of duration and your World on Fire has to be constantly re-cast, making it pretty useless since you're incredibly vulnerable between castings. You could beef up the duration a bit, but that sacrifices range and/or power, or other mods

Btw, you should use accelerant before casting WoF. Currently PS4 doesn't even have the bump to animation speed + castspeed from accelerant and I have just enough time to cast WoF AND get some shots in before enemies come out of stagger.

With that said- I think you should build around Accelerant more than WoF, keep WoF at a decent duration, something between 8-10s (Mine is currently at ~6s) I've also heard that since the animation speed buff, there appears to be 1 extra second that isn't being counted on PC (need confirmation).

Another thing- you need a decent power STR build. More power STR = higher bonus dmg from accelerant + increased chance of heat procs in WoF. Ember isn't THAT helpless.

With that said- I could agree to a few tweaks to her Ulti and her #3. Kinda wish her #3 wouldn't push enemies OUT of the ring (aka, the heat wave should start outside the inner circle of flames.)

Also: her #3 can push nullifiers away from other enemies, often exposing enemies who were hiding under the bubble.

 

Also(2): the annoying fact that some enemies don't panic from heat procs if they were in an animation that ignores the addition of panic when they were inflicted with heat proc.

Edited July 20, 2015 by (PS4)Dan_Aria

[RealPandemonium]

People are actually defending Ember now?  Am I in bizarro world?  (thank god)

 

Also(2): the annoying fact that some enemies don't panic from heat procs if they were in an animation that ignores the addition of panic when they were inflicted with heat proc.

This can be annoying but it's worth noting that Accelerant's stagger animation reliably opens enemies up to Heat proc panic.  

Edited July 20, 2015 by RealPandemonium

[(PSN)Dan_Aria]

People are actually defending Ember now?  Am I in bizarro world?  (thank god)

 

This can be annoying but it's worth noting that Accelerant's stagger animation reliably opens enemies up to Heat proc panic.  

IKR? I still find it strange that there are threads that aren't about Mesa/GMAG/Excal lately.

Well yeah that is true.(to be fair I think accelerant does so due to the fact that it appears that the staggers shares the same(?) animation as heat proc panic, so it just overwrites with heat panic, maybe?)

Honestly I used to dislike the way her abilities are but as of late I kinda decided to try my best to master her before hammering her down with judgement. Granted, I'm crap at mastering anything so I could only take her so far as 20min T4 surv solo (I think I COULD go further but I had to get out due to reasons unrelated to WF).

Have been reading a lot of opinions on her aswell, old and new.

But I digress- back to topic: as I said, I only think that her #3 heat wave could start outside of the ring as to not make the ring redundant (I mean come on, u place the ring on some enemies but they are pushed LOL)[then again, some enemies don't walk thru the circle, which means u can possibly create choke points, given u have a decent duration ofc] and her 4 could get a bit of tweaking.

But in no way I wish for Ember to replace Mesa, if u know what I mean. (not sayin this is what OP is suggesting.)

Edited July 20, 2015 by (PS4)Dan_Aria

[RealPandemonium]

But I digress- back to topic: as I said, I only think that her #3 heat wave could start outside of the ring as to not make the ring redundant (I mean come on, u place the ring on some enemies but they are pushed LOL)[then again, some enemies don't walk thru the circle, which means u can possibly create choke points, given u have a decent duration ofc] and her 4 could get a bit of tweaking.

But in no way I wish for Ember to replace Mesa, if u know what I mean. (not sayin this is what OP is suggesting.)

Totally agree.  My idea was for Fire Blast to have two flame waves.  One would emanate from Ember and push enemies inside the ring to the ring itself.  The second would begin just outside the ring and push enemies away like it does now.  That way the ring is easier to use for damage (and can make a wall of meatshields for Ember/allies to take advantage of for a few seconds) and the larger flame wave won't push enemies out of the ring.  

[(PSN)Dan_Aria]

Totally agree.  My idea was for Fire Blast to have two flame waves.  One would emanate from Ember and push enemies inside the ring to the ring itself.  The second would begin just outside the ring and push enemies away like it does now.  That way the ring is easier to use for damage (and can make a wall of meatshields for Ember/allies to take advantage of for a few seconds) and the larger flame wave won't push enemies out of the ring.  

That would be nice, if anything, the ring would not be completely ignored by the wave. The augment for it, while appears to be nice, doesn't sound very practical given that the enemies won't really stay in the ring. (some do, some don't)

Btw, just a random suggestion, might be crap since I really am crap for ideas but: what do u think of the ring being affected by power range?

Not as in = expand it. (aka, increase in radius without affecting the wall of fire)

More like = make the ring have a thicker wall of fire.

That ofc, isn't something she NEEDS and it would probably be redundant.

It would indeed be nice if your idea was implemented, would give the circle more utility.

Edited July 20, 2015 by (PS4)Dan_Aria

[RealPandemonium]

That would be nice, if anything, the ring would not be completely ignored by the wave. The augment for it, while appears to be nice, doesn't sound very practical given that the enemies won't really stay in the ring. (some do, some don't)

Btw, just a random suggestion, might be crap since I really am crap for ideas but: what do u think of the ring being affected by power range?

Not as in = expand it. (aka, increase in radius without affecting the wall of fire)

More like = make the ring have a thicker wall of fire.

That ofc, isn't something she NEEDS.

It would indeed be nice if your idea was implemented, would give the circle more utility.

Giving the ring benefits from range mods would be a more or less unconditional buff, given that range is important to Ember's other powers.  I don't see why it would be a bad thing, though.  Hardly anyone uses the ring right now anyway, so it couldn't hurt.

[kleerr2]

+1 for no duration on WOF and Mirage's Prism needs this too.

[(PSN)Dan_Aria]

Giving the ring benefits from range mods would be a more or less unconditional buff, given that range is important to Ember's other powers.  I don't see why it would be a bad thing, though.  Hardly anyone uses the ring right now anyway, so it couldn't hurt.

Yeah.. it would just be more like a passive buff due to slotting range anyway.. Maybe some other effect for Ember while she's IN the circle?

(like, maybe make it some sort of tactical "safe zone" that Ember can place and receive some sort of defensive buff while inside of it, the downside being that it's not something that moves with you and the circle being rather compact, plus it costs 75 energy base.)

Eh, I dont know, it just feels like that wave pushing enemies away just completely ignores the existence of the ring.

Either way, she's not THAT bad of a frame,  if anything, a rework is what she DOESN'T need. Tweaks? yes.

Edited July 20, 2015 by (PS4)Dan_Aria

[(PSN)Dan_Aria]

+1 for no duration on WOF and Mirage's Prism needs this too.

If anything, I feel like the duration, should it be kept in the ability, should have a bit of a different interaction to WoF (like how duration affects Oberon's renewal, except something made for WoF)

[ShortCat]

There is absolutly no problem with WoF. The fact that the ability has activation costs and drain over time means that every build under 10 seconds improves its energyefficiency, because energy is balanced for activation costs and 10 runtime. Furthermore with the latest Accelerant castspeed buff and castspeed reduction on WoF recasting it in every new group you encounter is not a big deal.

[(PSN)Dan_Aria]

 Furthermore with the latest Accelerant castspeed buff and castspeed reduction on WoF recasting it in every new group you encounter is not a big deal.

And (I'm not sure about this since console doesn't have the buff yet) some people on PC report that the explosions start before the actual timer of the ability begins to count, giving it a tiny bit of a bump in the duration. It's not really a problematic ability to cast in the middle of a crowd (if the player is going to do so anyway) given that the accelerant stagger lasts long enough to make u able to cast WoF with the OLD animation (pre-buff) and without Natural talent..

Edited July 20, 2015 by (PS4)Dan_Aria

[user10000]

+1 for no duration on WOF and Mirage's Prism needs this too.

 

sorry, it'd be pretty stupid if WoF had no duration. if it was locked at its current duration for 100 energy, you could use 4 energy siphons ALONE and it'd be almost enough to indefinitely cast WoF @ max efficiency.

 

e:clarification

Edited July 21, 2015 by user10000

[kleerr2]

sorry, it'd be pretty stupid if WoF had no duration. if it was locked at its current duration for 100 energy, you could use 4 energy siphons ALONE and it'd be almost enough to indefinitely cast WoF @ max efficiency.

 

e:clarification

 

Not if its unaffected by ES and EV like most noduration ultimates.

[user10000]

Not if its unaffected by ES and EV like most noduration ultimates.

 

Oh, I get it now. You want to turn WoF into a channeling ability with no duration. So an ability that initially costs 50 energy and consumes energy over time, and automatically hits the enemies around you. Hm. That sounds familiar. But I'm sure that wouldn't promote lazy gameplay, right?

 

I'll give you a hint - the ability I'm referring to starts with "p" and ends with "eacemaker."

 

Think before you post.

[kleerr2]

WOF is nothing like PM sir it does not even come close...

[user10000]

You're right - it's significantly cheaper. And you can move during its duration, which balances its much smaller AoE.

 

Peacemaker and WoF are like night and day. Peacemaker only rules missions that don't require movement. WoF will conquer those that do. I'll take "fastest ways to ruin Warframe" for 500, Alex.

[God_is_a_Cat_Girl]

There is absolutly no problem with WoF. The fact that the ability has activation costs and drain over time means that every build under 10 seconds improves its energyefficiency, because energy is balanced for activation costs and 10 runtime. Furthermore with the latest Accelerant castspeed buff and castspeed reduction on WoF recasting it in every new group you encounter is not a big deal.

This for me. Duration stopped being an issue when it changed to lower activation cost and drain over time and the fact that you can turn it off whenever you want. The fact that people have to recast it, at least makes it so they, or something, has to press the skill button every XX seconds.

The activation cost could be slightly lower though (10~15 would be nice, 20 would be good, over that just feels too much), because right now, having it activated for more than 10 seconds will consume more energy than it did before even if you had more than 10 seconds since the cost was fixed.

Before: 100 energy cost, duration has no influence in the cost.

Now: 50 energy cost for activation, 5 energy per second, 0% duration = 10 seconds = 50 energy. 50 + 50 = 100 total cost.

The only perk that theoretically exists, is that if you have for example 20 seconds of WoF, now that costs 50 less energy comparing to the old 0% duration, and that perk only exists if you have more duration now than you had before, because if both have the same duration, the new energy consumption method will always be worse if you never turn it off, because in the new one you will always spend 100 energy for 10 seconds and the old was 100 energy for 10 seconds + duration = X(X) seconds.

 

Or perhaps World on Fire energy consumption needs a new formula that uses duration for it's cost as well.

 

 

I do have trouble finding Fire Blast as useful though. The outwards blast is a nice idea if you picture it as a purely defensive power (which kinda of is), since it pushes enemies away, but then the poor damage and the fact that enemies will barely step into it makes it feel like a waste of energy for just a push, the augment is kinda of nice, but honestly, the power itself should (or have at the very least a chance to) trigger the panic status (this days I like heat procs more than blast because of the panic and DoT effect). The power is overall not that great except in very specific occasions (and many times enemies actually stop before stepping into it and wait for the power to be gone which is annoying when you use it on a door to make incoming enemies suffer some damage, only to find a group of enemies blocking the door because they are waiting for the power to be gone).

Edited July 21, 2015 by Sorrow0110

[kleerr2]

Obviously you are not taking higher lvl content in this at all.I simply propose this since recasting can lead to reckless deaths.How exactly is no recast going to make her super OP opposed to her atm, especially in higher lvls where you drop in an instant if not carefull.She is a glasscannon unlike mesa(since you want to compare the two) Mesa has a 95% dmg reduction and a stun, her PM hits everything in 50m LOS without number limitations(embers WOF affects only 5 at a time excluding activation which could be a death sentence) whereas Ember simply rushes in combat praying that she can kill the enemyes before they pull the trigger(accelerant helps but to a certain point since you have to get in range).Plus its not like im the only one that has requested this and it only makes sence if the glasscannon dishes out some high dmg numbers.Risk and Reward...

[Hueminator]

I love Ember, but I feel World on Fire makes it impossible to build basically anything with her. World on Fire currently uses both a duration AND energy drain per second.

The issue is that if you build for high efficiency, for a more spam-based caster Ember, you sacrifice a lot of duration and your World on Fire has to be constantly re-cast, making it pretty useless since you're incredibly vulnerable between castings. You could beef up the duration a bit, but that sacrifices range and/or power, or other mods

If you build for duration, you get good use out of World on Fire, Fireblast and Accelerant, but then the energy drain of World on Fire impacts you pretty heavily.

You could argue that it's ok the way it is, but there really isn't any reason to have both duration AND energy drain. It would let people have more viable builds to suit their playstyle better, and it means one less warframe sits on a shelf collecting dust in the shadow of so many superior warframes.

 

The recent changes enable you to go efficiency build and still be effective.

 

1) accelerant last 30s, hence even if you have 50% duration it is still 15s

2) fast cast time of WoF making recasting trivial

 

For those who use energy siphon, you do know that when WoF is on energy siphon doesn't work right?  Having a duration to automatically turn off WoF would make some use of the aura instead of manually turn it off if you want to get energy siphon effect.

 

Now, if I want to add something to WoF, I would say do some radial damage when WoF ends (since you see some heat disperse from you when WoF end)

Edited July 21, 2015 by Hueminator

[God_is_a_Cat_Girl]

Ember shouldn't be compared to Mesa, because Mesa isn't a frame in the Balanced range.

Seriously, if you start WoF on the enemies LoS that can kill you that fast, you deserve to die. Do note that Ember has no LoS, therefore she doesn't need to be in front of the enemies and rush into their fast to deal damage.

[CruelCrow]

She has Oberon complex. For her only "good" ability (Okay, okay, I know, accelerant is amazing and the fire blast is cool for pushing back, but it's her ultimate, her strongest ability, and the one nearly everyone does/should build around), you need to really max out all of the stats. Range is arguably not necessary, but you'll still suffer if you don't have enough. Strength is obvious, since it's a damaging ability. Efficiency isn't a problem with FE and Streamline, but then you'll fall hard with duration, as you pointed out. I don't go for insanely long duration builds with WoF since a lot of the map is running through open space with no enemies, and it just drains energy, but its nice to have an ability last longer than 4 seconds.

 

Fire quake should be innate.

Duration should be removed.

 

Also: Overheat. From Wiki: Maximized Power Strength increases damage to 458 per second and increases damage reduction to 91.6%. (Okay, so I did the math and added Transient Fortitude since I don't think it calculated it, and got 113.6% damage reduction... it could be hard capped.)

They said this was OP... Remember that Mesa can achieve 95% damage buff (capped, or it would be higher) as well as doing reflection damage, Zephyr has complete damage immunity (Well, she's supposed to. I feel your pain Zephyr ;-;), Rhino has Iron Skin for complete invulnerability and immunity to knockdowns and auras (also needs reworked, but Overheat didn't have aura protection), and Blessing can get 95% reduction as well. Did they really remove something for being too strong and then turn around to make several clones that do the exact same thing?

[user10000]

I'm an experienced end game player unlike you, blah blah blah, Ember's too squishy, blah blah blah, I'm not the only one so that justifies my statement.

 

her survivability has nothing to do with Accelerant or WoF. Fire Blast should've been reworked into that role, not the bastard child of Accelerant's CC and WoF's damage.

 

Edit from here on out.

 

-snip-

 

All of those needs gigantic asterisks. Stop using only the comparisons that benefit your argument.

Edited July 21, 2015 by user10000

[kleerr2]

Ember shouldn't be compared to Mesa, because Mesa isn't a frame in the Balanced range.

Seriously, if you start WoF on the enemies LoS that can kill you that fast, you deserve to die. Do note that Ember has no LoS, therefore she doesn't need to be in front of the enemies and rush into their fast to deal damage.

1st: isnt that what im also saying?

2nd.She needs to get in range to her enemies for her abilities to work and she cannot mitigate dmg that is why she is a glasscannon frame.

 

 

her survivability has nothing to do with Accelerant or WoF. Fire Blast should've been reworked into that role, not the bastard child of Accelerant's CC and WoF's damage.

 

Edit from here on out.

 

Refrain from putting words in my mouth if you please!Thank you!If you have ideas on Fire Blast lets hear them.Her Accelerant and WOF give here laughtable survivability if you can even call it that(not taking team play into this equation).