Please Tweak [Ember] World On Fire With One Simple Change

[God_is_a_Cat_Girl]

1st: isnt that what im also saying?

2nd.She needs to get in range to her enemies for her abilities to work and she cannot mitigate dmg that is why she is a glasscannon frame.

 

 

 

Refrain from putting words in my mouth if you please!Thank you!If you have ideas on Fire Blast lets hear them.Her Accelerant and WOF give here laughtable survivability if you can even call it that(not taking team play into this equation).

 

 

I don't really see what's the problem with her range, or why range changes her into a glasscannon rather than a "know what you are doing" frame. Getting into range is part of balancing, it makes sure you don't kill things from miles away, just because some frames aren't balanced and are broken it doesn't necessarily makes it a problem.

 

I do see a problem when you are comparing her to Mesa, and not taking into account your own other tools, namely weapons (which properly modded weapons actually matter when you play Ember). Skills shouldn't clear everything by themselves, they should support you and/or make you fill in specific roles. Mesa is a frame that is outside of the "balanced" group, so nothing really should be directly compared to her (and honestly she needs a tone down).

 

Recasts, or simply casting animations not only are pretty, they are also meant to, in a way, create risks, yes, odds against the player, it's Risk and reward, and risk is an important game element, whether people notice it or not. A good player knows how to assess risks and take actions to prevent major losses, in Ember's case, when to not stay in the enemy's face, when to use Accelerant, which factions to fight against, and will know to bring weapons with heat damage (rather than blast) to make use of the abilities that Ember has to support her dealing more damage.

 

No recasts on Ember would also make her WoF energy cost too efficient, and duration actually balances it, but yes, like I said before, right now the ability cost isn't that great and needs a touch. No recast would make her get into the rather problematic group of Frames, which have abilities that doesn't require them to move, they can just stand still or hide in a corner and kill everything around them, the recasts make sure someone or something presses the button and the limited range makes it so being on the move can be beneficial, and promotes the player to make use of what the map has to offer, and soon we will even have great mobility options to help us make better use of the maps and avoid getting killed as easily.

 

Recasts act as a balancing method, and the recast isn't Ember's problem, so I don't think that has to be removed.

 

 

Another problem is that people still try to build Ember without taking into account the changes that she's been through. Duration isn't as important anymore and you can use surplus duration to increase her strength. A slight different problem right now is that Accelerant doesn't seem to increase the speed of the cast animation but only speeds up the cast? So the ability is cast before the animation ends, and you can't move until the animation ends which kinda of makes it not as useful as it should?

[(PSN)Dan_Aria]

I don't really see what's the problem with her range, or why range changes her into a glasscannon rather than a "know what you are doing" frame. Getting into range is part of balancing, it makes sure you don't kill things from miles away, just because some frames aren't balanced and are broken it doesn't necessarily makes it a problem.

 

No recasts on Ember would also make her WoF energy cost too efficient, and duration actually balances it, but yes, like I said before, right now the ability cost isn't that great and needs a touch.  The recasts make sure someone or something presses the button and the limited range makes it so being on the move can be beneficial, and promotes the player to make use of what the map has to offer, and soon we will even have great mobility options to help us make better use of the maps and avoid getting killed as easily.

 

Another problem is that people still try to build Ember without taking into account the changes that she's been through. Duration isn't as important anymore and you can use surplus duration to increase her strength. A slight different problem right now is that Accelerant doesn't seem to increase the speed of the cast animation but only speeds up the cast? So the ability is cast before the animation ends, and you can't move until the animation ends which kinda of makes it not as useful as it should?

I agree, IMO I think people are too focused trying to build around WoF that they just trap themselves into a loop. WoF is good enough with a duration between 6~10s, a lot of people also seem to not take into account that Power STR actually increases the chance WoF has to panic enemies.(which can make the augment for WoF kinda redundant)

Ember requires the player to be agile and move, often using the environment to advantage (it stands to reason why her ultimate is something that follows her and does not get in the way of Ember doing other stuff like using other abilities and shooting enemies). If anything, the new maneuvers coming with Parkour 2.0 which seem to lower enemy accuracy are quite good for Ember, u'll be able to move swiftly AND enemies will aimbot less.

You can also have accelerant stagger enemies over and over if need be or stagger before casting something else.

IMO the things I'd change on Ember would be in her #3. What?

-Make the wall of fire that knocks enemies back start OUTSIDE of the ring of flames Ember leaves on the ground.

additional:

-Maybe have the Fireblast augment something innate to the ability.

OR

-Give Ember a defensive buff while she stands INSIDE of the ring of flames. Doesn't have to be a flat damage reduction.

(or maybe both, emphasis on MAYBE, the skill DOES cost 75 energy and at the moment it basically rushes over ignoring the ring of flames.)

Maybe some tweaking on her #4 aswell.

Ember needs tweaking IMO, not to be made something similar to Mesa nor to be compared to Mesa.

Edited July 21, 2015 by (PS4)Dan_Aria

[God_is_a_Cat_Girl]

I agree, IMO I think people are too focused trying to build around WoF that they just trap themselves into a loop. WoF is good enough with a duration between 6~10s, a lot of people also seem to not take into account that Power STR actually increases the chance WoF has to panic enemies.(which can make the augment for WoF kinda redundant)

Ember requires the player to be agile and move, often using the environment to advantage (it stands to reason why her ultimate is something that follows her and does not get in the way of Ember doing other stuff like using other abilities and shooting enemies). If anything, the new maneuvers coming with Parkour 2.0 which seem to lower enemy accuracy are quite good for Ember, u'll be able to move swiftly AND enemies will aimbot less.

You can also have accelerant stagger enemies over and over if need be or stagger before casting something else.

IMO the things I'd change on Ember would be in her #3. What?

-Make the wall of fire that knocks enemies back start OUTSIDE of the ring of flames Ember leaves on the ground.

additional:

-Maybe have the Fireblast augment something innate to the ability.

OR

-Give Ember a defensive buff while she stands INSIDE of the ring of flames. Doesn't have to be a flat damage reduction.

(or maybe both, emphasis on MAYBE, the skill DOES cost 75 energy and at the moment it basically rushes over ignoring the ring of flames.)

Maybe some tweaking on her #4 aswell.

Ember needs tweaking IMO, not to be made something similar to Mesa nor to be compared to Mesa.

 

Considering the defensive nature of Fire Blast, having some sort of defensive buff is a nice idea, only issue I'd see with it is if the game doesn't limit how many instances of that power can exist at the same time (like how they showed that Frost will have on his Snowglobe), it will turn maps into a FPS drop fest. Oberon has that on his Hollowed ground, deals damage to enemies that step on it (less than Ember though) and gives an armor buff, and it costs 50 energy per cast (while fire blast costs 75 energy and while it deals more damage compared to hallowed ground, it also trades the buff for a single blast when cast).

[(PSN)Dan_Aria]

Considering the defensive nature of Fire Blast, having some sort of defensive buff is a nice idea, only issue I'd see with it is if the game doesn't limit how many instances of that power can exist at the same time (like how they showed that Frost will have on his Snowglobe), it will turn maps into a FPS drop fest. Oberon has that on his Hollowed ground, deals damage to enemies that step on it (less than Ember though) and gives an armor buff, and it costs 50 energy per cast (while fire blast costs 75 energy and while it deals more damage compared to hallowed ground, it also trades the buff for a single blast when cast).

XD well to be fair at the moment it's just a very unpolished idea, but I think that the buff not stacking per-instance would be enough, the 75(base) power cost + duration to the ability and the fact that Ember needs to be on the move to use other abilities (be it to CC and buff dmg with Accelerant or using WoF) are also, in my opinion, good enough limits to the ability. It would be something that could be used as a tactical-safe-ish-zone.

Ofc, if it turns out to be something troublesome to FPS, other limitations could come into play.

[Windy_Wind]

All the dev need to do with ember is to remove that duration in WoF,. 

 

About fire blast: it cost too much energy for what it does. I'm thinking about the dev should just remove the fire ring and reduce the energy cost down to 25 points so that fire blast will actually becomes a CC skill that we can use constantly. At the moment, the skill itself is soooo counter-productive. you want the enemy come to the ring but the blast actually push them away......Seriously, remove the ring and reduce the energy cost.

 

And if the fire ring is there, then I should do something U know, like giving 50% fire damage when shooting through the ring, pretty much like volt's electriic shield

[RealPandemonium]

Fire quake should be innate.

Knockdowns are inferior to Heat proc's panic effect, though?

 

 

They said this was OP... Remember that Mesa can achieve 95% damage buff (capped, or it would be higher) as well as doing reflection damage, Zephyr has complete damage immunity (Well, she's supposed to. I feel your pain Zephyr ;-;), Rhino has Iron Skin for complete invulnerability and immunity to knockdowns and auras (also needs reworked, but Overheat didn't have aura protection), and Blessing can get 95% reduction as well. Did they really remove something for being too strong and then turn around to make several clones that do the exact same thing?

Shatter Shield's DR is only applied to bullets (I'm not defending it, though.)

 

Turbulence is ridiculous.  IDK what DE was smoking when they decided that Zephyr and teammates in a radius could have indefinite godmode.  And now you don't even need range mods to reap the benefits.  That said, AOE, procs, and melee can still harm you.  

 

Iron Skin has finite HP.  It also can't be recast without an augment.  

 

Blessing grants up to 99.9% DR but requires effort to maintain and has a sizable risk of failure when re-applying the buff.  It can still be cheesy as hell but people aren't abusing it prolifically and prominently anymore so I guess it's OK for the time being.

 

Overheat is arguably stronger than all of these, particularly in its ease of use.  Back when Ember had Overheat she was only popular because Overheat gave her training wheels.  We don't need more things to abuse.  (Besides, current Ember is plenty abuse-able as-is.

Edited July 22, 2015 by RealPandemonium

[-Kryptyk-]

yes yes, please tell me more about how you fail to master a frame and her play style....

 

[NN13]

The best Frame that is comparable to Ember in terms of mechanisms is Mirage.

 

Mirage's Prism uses the exact same mechanism as WoF.

 

But problem with Ember is that WoF targets 5 enemies at a time while Mirage's Prism can target 20 enemies with double the range and additional CC capability. (WoF range is 15m and Prism is 30m)

 

Moreover, Accelerant is probably one of the worst CC abilities.With a 30s duration, it should be similar to Banshee's Silence. Enemies coming within range should be affected. It makes sense as well. If something on fire comes near you, will you not feel the heat? Same logic goes for Accelerant.

 

Moreover, WoF range needs to be atleast 20m and the 5 enemy cap should be increased to 10 or maybe 15.

[RealPandemonium]

The best Frame that is comparable to Ember in terms of mechanisms is Mirage.

 

Mirage's Prism uses the exact same mechanism as WoF.

 

But problem with Ember is that WoF targets 5 enemies at a time while Mirage's Prism can target 20 enemies with double the range and additional CC capability. (WoF range is 15m and Prism is 30m)

 

Moreover, Accelerant is probably one of the worst CC abilities.With a 30s duration, it should be similar to Banshee's Silence. Enemies coming within range should be affected. It makes sense as well. If something on fire comes near you, will you not feel the heat? Same logic goes for Accelerant.

 

Moreover, WoF range needs to be atleast 20m and the 5 enemy cap should be increased to 10 or maybe 15.

This post is riddled with inaccuracies.

 

Prism doesn't tick damage directly to enemies; the damage comes from lasers that are continually emitted from the disco ball.

 

Prism's damage is inferior to Accelerant-boosted WoF's damage unless enemies are very close to the ball.  Accelerant also delivers its maxcase damage relatively maintenance-free, giving its benefit to Ember without forcing her to play around it.  Prism also requires LoS to deliver its damage while WoF does not.  

 

Prism's CC is definitely more cheesy.  I don't think anyone could defend it.  

 

Accelerant's CC comes out fast and on-demand.  It also primes enemies for further CC via Heat procs from Ember's powers and weapons.  Properly utilized, Accelerant can cover almost every hole in Ember's defense and lock down entire rooms if desired.  WoF's duration is both for the damage debuff as well as the casting speed increase for Ember.  Making it similar to Silence would make it unable to be recast on demand and would gut its defensive benefit.  

[Xarteros]

i actually missed that hotfix note about accelerant improving casting speed, so thanks for that.

That said, I still would prefer to pick one or the other in regards to duration vs power drain, I can see ways to build for either, but both still just feels clunky. Particularly so, i feel, because your WoF can end suddenly if the duration expires OR if you run out of energy. With the plethora of energy leeches in later levels, it gets pretty frustrating to cast an ability you heavily modded for duration, just to have it run out of juice and cancel before you can pick up another energy orb. If it were to become a channeling ability, i'd be fine with it having a fairly steep channeling cost, even with efficiency taken into account, i just think both is a bit much.

I don't really have all that much issue with this whole thing, it's not like it's a gamebreaker if i can't enjoy a particular warframe, but in the shadow of so much OP crap I just feel like this could be a quick-easy tweak to make Ember a bit more solid. I didn't really talk about the other abilities because i figure DE aren't going to want to read a 200 page essay on a complete overhaul, but they might happily read a minor tweak to fill in the meantime, and make their own decision from there.

[user10000]

That said, I still would prefer ...  i feel... i'd be fine... I just think both...

 

...it's not like it's a gamebreaker if i can't enjoy a particular warframe...

 

in other words, you personally don't like it.

 

I know it's viable in its current state. There is no reason to radically change it.

 

 

I didn't really talk about the other abilities because i figure DE aren't going to want to read a 200 page essay on a complete overhaul...

 

Thank you for keeping your OP short. It's something that most seem to have the inability to do.

 

But how can you not talk about Fire Blast when speaking of an Ember buff?

 

It's weak damage-wise, requires LoS for no apparent reason - and unreliable. Enemies in animations, like the Accelerant stun and fire panic, of all things, are not affected. edit: and yes I did ignore the AoE. The ability doesn't even synergize with itself.

 

*The last bit seems to be a common annoyance - which animations are breakable and which are not seem fairly arbitrary. Not that it helps.

Edited July 22, 2015 by user10000

[Djego27]

Look at it this way, if it had infinite duration, it would be probably more expensive per second, if it had duration only it would be more expensive on negative duration builds. In the current state of Ember, if you run negative duration you can just recast it if needed, it does cost less then other ultimates because of the negative duration, while it allows you to stack more power strength(what means we don't do less damage over time, for the most part we just do it quicker with negative duration builds) then we had back in the days when it was duration based, since the need of duration to archive good power efficiency got reduced by quite a bit.

Edited July 22, 2015 by Djego27

[Ryjeon]

The best Frame that is comparable to Ember in terms of mechanisms is Mirage.

 

Mirage's Prism uses the exact same mechanism as WoF.

 

But problem with Ember is that WoF targets 5 enemies at a time while Mirage's Prism can target 20 enemies with double the range and additional CC capability. (WoF range is 15m and Prism is 30m)

 

Moreover, Accelerant is probably one of the worst CC abilities.With a 30s duration, it should be similar to Banshee's Silence. Enemies coming within range should be affected. It makes sense as well. If something on fire comes near you, will you not feel the heat? Same logic goes for Accelerant.

 

Moreover, WoF range needs to be atleast 20m and the 5 enemy cap should be increased to 10 or maybe 15.

 

It's true that Mirage is the right frame to make comparisons with Ember and Prism is a great ability. I'm amazed how few people recognize this so kudos to you.  But you're overlooking that the majority of WoF's damage in extended engagements with multiple enemies comes from the giant DoTs it hands out on hit. So at any given time far more than 3-5 enemies are being damaged by WoF. And it prioritizes hitting enemies that aren't already burning so it's pretty consistent in its distribution of DoTs. When there are fewer enemies the ability acts like Bladestorm and multi-hits targets so much it can become blinding to look at. 

 

For reference to show I'm not just theorycrafting WoF's mechanics: last nights 80 minute T2S with a WoF build and status-built Rad/Viral Amprex (no serration or crit, sadly I think Ember is ultra-dependent on Radiation procs to mitage Ancients and Eximus auras). 85% bonus power strength. http://i.imgur.com/E4Dua2Q.jpg

2 CP, EV Trin + Fracturing Crush Mag. Excal sadly bugged out at 50 mins making my Fireball Frenzy augment somewhat less impactful.

 

But besides that Mirage really does have a lot going for her in the comparison race with Ember. The fact that Prism hits every enemy 4 times a second is really powerful along with it's great range and added ability to Blind. Prism is veeery powerful and Mirage's kit is amazing. But the difference in power with WoF is not quite as drastic as you've illustrated, though I do think in general Mirage can edge out Ember.

Edited July 22, 2015 by Ryjeon

[ShortCat]

We came to the conclusion that at the current state lower duration is good for efficiency. Try considering this for your builds.

 

Now what happens if we remove duration on WoF? In my opinion Fireblast is not good at the moment, Accelerant is easely recastable and the stun is not affected by duration. Thus it seems duration is not important on her. Minmaxers will skip the stat entirely, although her other skills need that duration, making her onetrickpony and limiting the Frame in its playstile. 

The Gameplay would not change, as we would turn it off and on for every encounter in order to save energy. The only benefit are some slots that could be saved. Atm I only use 1 duration mod and I think such necessities are required for Framebalance.

 

Now, if energydrain is removed, leaving only activation costs every build with more than 10 seconds will profit from the change. Will people build for super high duration builds? I don't think so, only with the augment mod, but I have yet to see someone using it ( CC with it is ok, can be done better by other frames though). Fleeting and Transient will still kill the duration so realisticly we are argueing about 5 seconds max, as most slots are needed for PStrength and effeciency. However if someone is willng to cast it one more time in order to save some energy, this option will be gone. 

 

I will say it again, don't get too obsessed with duration, try to stay near that 10 seconds more is really not needed. Baseduration on all of her skills is high, maintaining that 100% is all you need to do.

[ShortCat]

Her Accelerant and WOF give here laughtable survivability if you can even call it that(not taking team play into this equation).

This statement is just wrong otherwise I wouldn't survive 1h games.

 

[ArbitorSupreme]

I say mod ember for low duration and then  add natrual talent spam her 2nd abil then wof

[RealPandemonium]

I say mod ember for low duration and then  add natrual talent spam her 2nd abil then wof

NT is not needed by Ember since her cast speeds were increased and using Accelerant gives her the NT effect for free anyway.  

[RealPandemonium]

status-built Rad/Viral Amprex (no serration or crit

Why no damage mods?  No room, or trying to keep its damage weak so you can't rely on it?

[Ryjeon]

Why no damage mods?  No room, or trying to keep its damage weak so you can't rely on it?

 

I run 4 x Elemental Status mods, extend range mod, split chamber, shred, and primed reload. I really want as much utility as I can get out of it. I figure since I'm not going for full crit scaling on it I might as well not bother taking a half step towards a damage amprex. I suppose I could swap out shred or Fast Reload but I habitually reload a lot so shorter times work better for me. I'm happy with it as a status hose.

[NN13]

This post is riddled with inaccuracies.

 

Prism doesn't tick damage directly to enemies; the damage comes from lasers that are continually emitted from the disco ball.

 

Prism's damage is inferior to Accelerant-boosted WoF's damage unless enemies are very close to the ball.  Accelerant also delivers its maxcase damage relatively maintenance-free, giving its benefit to Ember without forcing her to play around it.  Prism also requires LoS to deliver its damage while WoF does not.  

 

Prism's CC is definitely more cheesy.  I don't think anyone could defend it.  

 

Accelerant's CC comes out fast and on-demand.  It also primes enemies for further CC via Heat procs from Ember's powers and weapons.  Properly utilized, Accelerant can cover almost every hole in Ember's defense and lock down entire rooms if desired.  WoF's duration is both for the damage debuff as well as the casting speed increase for Ember.  Making it similar to Silence would make it unable to be recast on demand and would gut its defensive benefit.  

No one said Prism deals damage. I am not stupid. I said Prism because the ability is said so. Its like saying WoF does not deal damage but the Fire pillars that come out of it deals damage. See how ridiculous it sounds?

 

When you are comparing abilities, you are not supposed to compare it by boosting it with another ability, like WoF boosted by Accelerant. Because that comparison is biased.

 

If Accelerant worked like Silence, you wouldn't need to re-cast. You literally run around with an AoE stun.

My problem is that if Accelerant is supposed to be an on-demand CC, then why is its base duration 30 seconds? It should have been like 15 seconds and should cost less energy. If we are supposed to spam it, why give it high duration?

And on-demand CC you say?

I can double 4 for Mirage and CC way more enemies in a wider radius.

 

And you went on and neglected my main points -

 

1. Prism (lasers, so you can understand) has double the range than WoF, meaning mods' benefit is more for it.

2. Prism lasers can target 20 enemies while WoF targets max 5. Remove the enemy cap and we are on par with Prism, maybe better.

 

Another thing you are forgetting is that Prism(lasers) deal Radiation while WoF deals Fire. Know what that means? Yes, Prism can tear through Armor(which is the biggest problem at high levels) way more easily than Ember.

 

Moreover, I just compared WoF with Prism. If I start comparing other abilities, Mirage will win hands down.

 

It's true that Mirage is the right frame to make comparisons with Ember and Prism is a great ability. I'm amazed how few people recognize this so kudos to you.  But you're overlooking that the majority of WoF's damage in extended engagements with multiple enemies comes from the giant DoTs it hands out on hit. So at any given time far more than 3-5 enemies are being damaged by WoF. And it prioritizes hitting enemies that aren't already burning so it's pretty consistent in its distribution of DoTs. When there are fewer enemies the ability acts like Bladestorm and multi-hits targets so much it can become blinding to look at. 

 

For reference to show I'm not just theorycrafting WoF's mechanics: last nights 80 minute T2S with a WoF build and status-built Rad/Viral Amprex (no serration or crit, sadly I think Ember is ultra-dependent on Radiation procs to mitage Ancients and Eximus auras). 85% bonus power strength. http://i.imgur.com/E4Dua2Q.jpg

2 CP, EV Trin + Fracturing Crush Mag. Excal sadly bugged out at 50 mins making my Fireball Frenzy augment somewhat less impactful.

 

But besides that Mirage really does have a lot going for her in the comparison race with Ember. The fact that Prism hits every enemy 4 times a second is really powerful along with it's great range and added ability to Blind. Prism is veeery powerful and Mirage's kit is amazing. But the difference in power with WoF is not quite as drastic as you've illustrated, though I do think in general Mirage can edge out Ember.

True enough, Ember dishes out more damage than Mirage, but as I said, the problem with WoF is that it has smaller range and targets just 5 enemies.

Imagine targeting just 5 enemies out of 20 enemies in a big void room where Accelerant can not reach fully. Ember is so squishy, it will die very easily.

 

I am not looking down upon you, please don't get me wrong, but 80 T2S is pretty easy. If you successfully survived 60 minutes of T4S, I would say Ember does not need a buff. I, for one, would not take Ember to T4S because I have seen she can not survive.

[RealPandemonium]

My problem is that if Accelerant is supposed to be an on-demand CC, then why is its base duration 30 seconds? It should have been like 15 seconds and should cost less energy. If we are supposed to spam it, why give it high duration?

That's so that low duration builds don't have to re-cast it excessively to take advantage of the damage bonus.  

[God_is_a_Cat_Girl]

No one said Prism deals damage. I am not stupid. I said Prism because the ability is said so. Its like saying WoF does not deal damage but the Fire pillars that come out of it deals damage. See how ridiculous it sounds?

 

When you are comparing abilities, you are not supposed to compare it by boosting it with another ability, like WoF boosted by Accelerant. Because that comparison is biased.

 

If Accelerant worked like Silence, you wouldn't need to re-cast. You literally run around with an AoE stun.

My problem is that if Accelerant is supposed to be an on-demand CC, then why is its base duration 30 seconds? It should have been like 15 seconds and should cost less energy. If we are supposed to spam it, why give it high duration?

And on-demand CC you say?

I can double 4 for Mirage and CC way more enemies in a wider radius.

 

And you went on and neglected my main points -

 

1. Prism (lasers, so you can understand) has double the range than WoF, meaning mods' benefit is more for it.

2. Prism lasers can target 20 enemies while WoF targets max 5. Remove the enemy cap and we are on par with Prism, maybe better.

 

Another thing you are forgetting is that Prism(lasers) deal Radiation while WoF deals Fire. Know what that means? Yes, Prism can tear through Armor(which is the biggest problem at high levels) way more easily than Ember.

 

Moreover, I just compared WoF with Prism. If I start comparing other abilities, Mirage will win hands down.

 

True enough, Ember dishes out more damage than Mirage, but as I said, the problem with WoF is that it has smaller range and targets just 5 enemies.

Imagine targeting just 5 enemies out of 20 enemies in a big void room where Accelerant can not reach fully. Ember is so squishy, it will die very easily.

 

I am not looking down upon you, please don't get me wrong, but 80 T2S is pretty easy. If you successfully survived 60 minutes of T4S, I would say Ember does not need a buff. I, for one, would not take Ember to T4S because I have seen she can not survive.

Endless modes scaling is terrible, and after 40 minutes, T1, T2 and T3 are nearly the same, the only difference in T4 is that enemies have a damage buff (and start at a slightly higher level, which is barely important later on).

 

60 minutes of T4S is a pretty ridiculous way of seeing if a frame is viable or not, since even frames with damage reduction will have trouble without proper mobility/CC/life drain/restore.

 

 

 

Comparing Mirage and Ember's ultimates is silly, because in the end they are completely different, besides the duration limitations and the amount of enemies they can attack similarity, and what makes them completely different is the control you have over them.

Mirage's you can just throw into a room and leave it killing enemies for you while you go somewhere else. Ember's offers control over the area it affects by simply MOVING around, this means you can use the map to your advantage. Many maps have plenty of cover, some even have corridors and ducts that the enemy doesn't use (in the void for example, there's a huge round room with a tree in the middle, the bottom floor has open grates that lead to tight corridors right under the floor that the enemy doesn't use, it's great for WoF and Nekros to do his job). Ember can also use accelerant to kill things faster, something that Mirage can't do with just her own skills.

 

Building Mirage and Ember is usually pretty different as well. Ember doesn't need duration as much anymore, even a build with 100% duration (this is, untouched) is enough, and if you build for that you might even end up with some extra range. Ember benefits greatly from how you mod your weapons. Mirage however benefits greatly from duration since with that you can avoid recasting 2 skills all the time, which leads to good energy efficiency (which can be used for survivability) and a better use of a certain augment mod, range penalty on Mirage isn't as bad because her 2 isn't really that useful 99% of the time, and her ultimate will still be good with the penalty it just won't be as versatile (you can't throw it into the sky and have it hit everyone, but you can throw it directly at the enemy and still kill them anyway), though you won't be able to make use of the blind as much (this is a nice balancing since blind is way too good).

 

 

Accelerant does a lot of things besides CC, 50 cost isn't that bad, yet, it would be nice if they gave it a minor range buff, 5 more meters would be nice. If your party is coordinated and changed their mods accordingly, Accelerant will help everyone a lot, and it's not the CC helping them.

 

 

Ember is a frame that to make full use requires the player to know a lot more than pressing numbers, and will do even better in a team coordinated to make use of her powers, pretty much one of the reasons why most people doesn't like her. She can be great in a team, but her squishiness (a minor HP buff would be nice actually, a few other frames need HP changes too) makes it so she's not that good when alone (no frame should be fine alone since it's a co-op game, but having a little few that can is fine anyway).

She does need some tweaks, fire blast being a defensive power makes it feel silly because her other 3 powers are offensive powers (Accelerant is a support power to make offensive better) and it also needs some tweaks, but she doesn't need silly things like duration removal which will make her a passive and simply dumb (once you get rid of duration in WoF which is what limits her, you will be able to completely tune against it and she will turn into another Mesa wannabe, which has less range and damage but doesn't require LoS which lets her kill things without ever being in front of an enemy, unlike Mesa).

 

 

Can't wait for U17 to jump all over the place while WoF kills everything for me. : )

[-Kryptyk-]

This statement is just wrong otherwise I wouldn't survive 1h games.

....check your build or playstyle? 1hr is easy with ember....

[NN13]

Endless modes scaling is terrible, and after 40 minutes, T1, T2 and T3 are nearly the same, the only difference in T4 is that enemies have a damage buff (and start at a slightly higher level, which is barely important later on).

 

60 minutes of T4S is a pretty ridiculous way of seeing if a frame is viable or not, since even frames with damage reduction will have trouble without proper mobility/CC/life drain/restore.

After 40 mins, T1, T2, T3 are same? Really?

 

Not at all.

 

Why is 60 min T4S is a ridiculous way of seeing if a frame is viable? Because every frame will be viable if you take the example of even T4E.

The viability of a frame in this game can be only determined based on how good it is on endless missions. Because other than endless missions, our huge array of mods and OP corrupted mods make our frames OP for most non-endless missions.

 

Prism and WoF is the closest comparison one can get. What would you compare WoF with? I would like to hear.

Edited July 23, 2015 by NN13

[Ryjeon]

True enough, Ember dishes out more damage than Mirage, but as I said, the problem with WoF is that it has smaller range and targets just 5 enemies.

Imagine targeting just 5 enemies out of 20 enemies in a big void room where Accelerant can not reach fully. Ember is so squishy, it will die very easily.

 

I am not looking down upon you, please don't get me wrong, but 80 T2S is pretty easy. If you successfully survived 60 minutes of T4S, I would say Ember does not need a buff. I, for one, would not take Ember to T4S because I have seen she can not survive.

 

The point I was making was not about Ember's damage. It was about how many targets World on Fire can simultaneously affect. It targets 3-5 at a time but the majority of the damage in an extended engagement is from the distributed damage over time burn procs which at any given moment can affect more enemies than the numbers you are selecting. These burn procs and Accelerant's heat multiplication are core aspects of Ember's kit and to ignore them would be like presenting an argument about a WoW rogue's finisher damage with zero combo points. I'm not saying you don't have a good argument in your Mirage comparison. I actually supported your conclusion. But I am saying your argument operates on a faulty premise with regards to this specific aspect of WoF. World on Fire targets 3-5 at a time but can be affecting quite a bit more than that. I'm not arguing against the rest of your points and I agree Prism is as strong as you say. But you are misrepresenting the mechanics of World on Fire.

 

And for different missions you can slot to increase the range of Accelerant as you might any frame. I often go for Overextended(with max TrasFort and R7 Blind Rage to balance the power strength penalty) in T4s which is enough to cover a large room like the circular 2 story room. In tense situations where an enemy can one-shot I'm going to be stunning the hell out of them, as well as continually flipping, moving and using cover to stay extra safe. Again I feel like your conclusions and overall points are valid, you just pick some weak premises that don't really reflect how Ember is utilized in higher levels. WoF doesn't only affect 5 enemies at a time, and Accelerant can be used keep a wide area on lockdown.

 

But like I said initially. I do agree with you that Mirage can edge out Ember because of Prism blind and base range. And because of her clones and eclipse. Mirage is great. I don't think Ember is weak. But I do think she can stand to be updated to be more interesting and accessible.

Edited July 23, 2015 by Ryjeon