Armored Agility On Valkyr, Not As Good As You Think.

[Valiant]

Give up...significant capability? Like what? I replaced Rush with Armored Agility and only lost some speed, but gained 30% health in return. Seems like a solid trade-off. As for her other mods? I have everything I need to go anywhere I want and do any mission I want. I don't really see the loss.

To be honest, if I was using Rush on my Valkyr it'd be the first to go so I doubt it was that difficult of a decision. Don't even really need Rush on Valkyr in the first place.

[Chub_N_Tuck]

This is a typical misunderstanding of damage reduction that people surprisingly do not realize.

 

If you play StarCraft or some other RTS games, there are armor upgrades for units which goes up by 1. That 1 armor upgrade can help a TON when units trade and it does make advantages and potentially wins. Why?

 

Think of it this way. If you are receiving 3% less damage per shot from enemies, that damage that you might have received without 3% damage reduction adds up every shot you take. Some people may disagree that it is very insignificant, but if it's 3% less damage each shot, I don't see why it wouldn't be worth getting it at all, if one should decide to get it. It's not that bad.

 

But I know there are other mods I put more priority on, since I don't even use Steel Fiber on Valkyr. Personally don't use AA anyways outside of Frost, since I value abilities more than armor, I want other mods that help me boost ability strength/duration/efficiency/range. I can just move quick or take cover to just take less damage that way.

Edited July 22, 2015 by Chuck_NoMiss

[bejuizb]

I dunno man...considering how mobile I usually like to be, having more durability and movespeed is a boon for me >.>

[Abenoki]

While I agree that it's not as beneficial for valkyr , I'd most definitely say make room for it on chroma. He gets so much benefit from armor increase, And the amount of raw damage he can take and keep going is just awesome.

[MonkJayn]

if you are running a rush mod you are already not being very effective, its always the best mod in any build to replace.

[Demon-King-Lamb]

I still don't get any use out of higher Armor rating. Still take just as much dmg as always.

[Mastikator2]

if you are running a rush mod you are already not being very effective, its always the best mod in any build to replace.

Lies, you always gotta go faster!

[VampirePirate]

I recently came across a video on youtube were the video maker claimed that The new Armored Agility/AA mod was op when combined with the Steel Fiber/SF mod on valkyr. 

 

                        standard      AA         SF       Both

Valkyr armor:      600          870      1260     1530

 

As you can see the numbers are impressive but when you look at the raw stat increase it falls flat on it's face. The thing about armor is that the more you have the less effective it will be.  So for example, you have valkyr with Steel Fiber and that would grant you 80% dmg reduction across the board. Now if you apply the AA mod with the Steel fiber mod that number becomes 83% dmg reduction, so it's really not a mod you should use with valkyr, i would recommend using both mods on Excalibur since the use of both mods is more beneficial on a character with a little less armor.

 

So what do you think? is the 15% sprint speed increase and 3% dmg reduction worth it or is the new Armored agility mod trash on valkyr? in my opinion it is since the Armored agility mod takes up a mod slot and it cost 11 capacity, would you use a mod that cost 11 capacity and basically only increase sprinting speed with 15%? of course you would not.

Sounds like diminishing returns.

 

Makes sense though.  Don't want anyone to become too powerful.

[(PSN)buddy72757]

EXPLANATION OF WHY ARMOUR AGILITY IS A VIABLE CHOICE.

In response to OP's assertion. 

 

 

 

Not sure if people already explained... but I think these good examples can help too:

 

The difference is actually moderately significant. 

 

3% damage reduction may seem worthless by itself, but you have to remember that it is not only a reduction, but it is on top of an already high armor value meaning that the reduction is going to make a much larger difference. 

 

Here is an example:

 

0% Damage Reduction: 

Input: 100

Output: 100

 

1% Damage Reduction: 

Input: 100

Output: 99

 

Percentage Difference: 1%

Reduction Increase (0% to 1%): 1.0101%

 

Effective Health Before: 100.000

Effective Health After: 100.0101

 

Insignificant Right.....?

--------------------------------------------------------

 

 

98% Damage Reduction:

Input: 100

Output: 2

 

99% Damage Reduction:

Input: 100

Output: 1

 

Percentage Difference: 1%

Reduction Increase (98% to 99%): 100%

 

Effective Health Before: 5,000

Effective Health After: 10,000

 

Very Significant......

 

Yet, the same percentage difference. 

 

So, 80% to 83% is actually a bigger deal than you'd think.... but not as big as 98% to 99%, that difference is massive and I only used it as demonstration. Nevertheless, the difference is still considerable. 

 

The higher the reduction is, the more addition reduction values will scale... it is an exponential process that is essentially the inverse of the properties of diminishing returns.

 

This is kinda why the DEVs made Armor Values have diminishing Reduction Values... its called balance.

Also why damage reduction abilities usually cap out at 95%. (again, balance)

 

I hope I explained this right? Correct me if I'm wrong. :)

 

 

 

 

EDIT 1:

TrueAlastar seems to have the right idea. 

 

EDIT 2:

Looking at it again, seems we have exactly the same idea haha. 

 

EDIT 3:

Looking further back, seems there have been a number of people already giving the same explanation lol.

Nevertheless, I hope my numbers proved helpful. 

Edited July 22, 2015 by (PS4)buddy72757

[(PSN)TrueAlastar]

if you are running a rush mod you are already not being very effective, its always the best mod in any build to replace.

Clearly you don't play melee-only. Speed is extremely valuable. And before you even start spouting nonsense about melee-only not being viable in higher-tier gameplay, I have never once found an ounce of problem doing it, especially since I know what I am doing. (And I've been doing it for about a year now.)

I guess what I'm saying, if you play melee-only Valkyr, it's a fantastic mod. (Armored Agility)

Edited July 22, 2015 by (PS4)TrueAlastar

[Valiant]

Clearly you don't play melee-only. Speed is extremely valuable. And before you even start spouting nonsense about melee-only not being viable in higher-tier gameplay, I have never once found an ounce of problem doing it, especially since I know what I am doing. (And I've been doing it for about a year now.)

I guess what I'm saying, if you play melee-only Valkyr, it's a fantastic mod. (Armored Agility)

I still wouldn't have said it was a mod which was a 'necessity' and would prove difficult in replacing with something else if I needed to. I and clearly countless others seem to get along alright without Rush for melee. It's helpful but I wouldn't ever list it as a 'God, gotta have this mod' tier. Suppose I'm used to playing Frost where I get by with what I have, though on the other hand my other main is Loki so it's like two separate ends of the spectrum.

 

I still don't get any use out of higher Armor rating. Still take just as much dmg as always.

Certainly feels that way. I'd love a proper Armour 2.0 in the future.

Edited July 22, 2015 by Naith

[BETAOPTICS]

For all you wondering how much it influences. Valkyr With approximately 1200 will give you a health pool total of 740x5=3700 (500%=500/100=5, more health from armor). Valkyr with maxed out Steel Fiber and Armored Agility with approximately 1500 armor will grant you a sum total of 4440 health in total. The difference health benefit that Armored Agility grants for Valkyr then becomes 4440-3700=740 health and 115% movement speed.

Which when you backtrack the function that is used to calculate armor value, it does indeed make sense that the ratio would be 300 armor=100% additional life which is consistent as it should be. It means that with each 300 armor you have, you will get the sum total of the health your Warframe has in health.

Thus effectively with Armored Agility on Valkyr, you add another entire life amount of health to your total health pool without any additional armor you can get with War Cry and Power Strength.

Now whether or not you will think this is a good idea, I can not say but I will gladly take it personally because she does not need that many of the other mods either for her build to work well and be nearly invulnerable after few Forma on her.

If you are interested how much maximum power strength and Warcry can potentially add health then it is a 148% additional boost to armor which means 248%=2,48 times boost to armor. This then would mean with maximum armor values that it would become 1500x2,48=3720. Which the below statistics do not even count but since every 300 armor means 100% more health to the health pool and Valkyr initial health is 740, then it translates to 3720 armor/300 armor=12,4. Now this means that it gives 12,4 times the amount of Valkyr Health pool which as translated becomes 740x12,4=9176 total health on Valkyr with Warcry activated with total Power Strength and Armor mods.

Technically this could be even more boosted with adding Vigor for exponential growth in health pool but for the purpose of clarity, I left it out for now. But let us just say it becomes something over <10600 health.

Here are the charts with math done for you already: http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Armor

Edited July 22, 2015 by BETAOPTICS

[xicx]

works real cool on saryn

[Lost_Cartographer]

It's actually easier to use this formula:  1+(armor/300) = division of damage. 

 

Example: 1+(300/300) = 2.  Damage is halved.

Example: 1+(600/300) = 3.  Damage is cut down to one third.

 

Conversely, this number can be multiplied into health to determine effective health.  300 armor effectively doubles HP for example.

 

300 armor = 50% damage reduction -or-  x2 health.

 

600 = 66% -or- x3 health.

 

900 = 75% -or- x4 health.

 

1200 = 80%. -or- x5 health.

 

1500 = 83% -or- x6 health.

 

1800 = 85-86% -or- x7 health.

 

And so on.  To put this into perspective, 2700 armor = 90% mitigation, or otherwise amounts to x10 health.  Each additional percentile is worth MORE effective health than the last, but requires more armor per percentile as well.  Its really easier to just remember that 300 armor = +100% more hp.  So basically, Valkyr going from 1200~ armor and getting +3% damage mitigation on top of that is essentially like tacking on another 300 armor.  

 

Of course, when your enemies are rapid firing rounds that chip off 100 health per round, the difference between taking 36 bullets or 44 bullets at 20rps (and this just from one dude) is nearly negligible, which is why armor can feel "useless" once things start hitting hard enough.  Level 20 Elite Frontier Lancers compared to level 30 Ballistae are proof of that.

 

Mostly, an armored warframe's worst enemy is rapid fire weaponry, and puncture rounds (primarily Corpus plasma) only amplify the carnage.  Most enemies use rapid fire weaponry.  By contrast, a single shot/low fire rate weapon would need to do an absurd quantity of damage per shot to be a real threat to a well armored Valkyr as opposed to a squishier frame, where a 1000 damage round is very dangerous, even lethal if the warframe has already suffered even a few bruises.

Edited July 22, 2015 by Littleman88

[robertgk2017]

health/(1-(armor/(armor+300)))=essential health

That's not the formula used by the game

It's

((Armor ÷ 300) +1) × hp = effective hp

[Chroia]

Much less useful against Corpus units than Grineer or Infested, due to Damage 2.0

[S3EK3R]

I have mate, she is a monster. Can't wait to finish my Arcane Guardian set to give her 60% more armor on top of that. :3

That's my plan too. But with a syandana using Arcane Trickery to be even more badass.

Edited July 23, 2015 by S3EK3R

[Sir_Alex_Traffo]

I might consider it on Excalibur, but it's just not worth it compared to any other mod I have already in!

[Jasonamous]

Armored Agility on Rage builds is actually leaves you NOT needing Streamline or Fleeting Expertise so long as you combine it with maxed Vitality and Steel Fiber and Primed Flow for that essential extra energy storage. You can go in with classic Berserker style recklessness and have all the time in the world to punch Hysteria as needed.

[SlapClown]

 What about War Cry and 30% Power Strength added in ?

[Mastikator2]

 What about War Cry and 30% Power Strength added in ?

Let me revise the math then. Warcry is added to the base armor and not affected by armor mods

 

Warcry armor = 50%

With Intensity = 5*1.3 = 65%

600 x .5 = 300

600 x .65 = 390

 

With SF

1/(300/(300+1260)) = 5.2

1/(300/(300+1260+300)) = 6.2

1/(300/(300+1260+390)) = 6.5

 

With SF + AA

1/(300/(300+1530)) = 6.1

1/(300/(300+1530+300)) = 7.1

1/(300/(300+1530+390)) = 7.4

 

720 x 5.2 = 3374

720 x 6.2 = 4464

720 x 6.5 = 4680

 

720 x 6.1 = 4382

720 x 7.1 = 5112

720 x 7.4 = 5328

 

5328/3374 = 1.579

58% more hp with SF + AA + intensify warcry vs just SF

 

And for the fun of it. With Vigor you get 840

 

840 x 7.4 = 6216

That is just a lot of HP. It's even better that it's effective hp, so your red orbs give you 185 effective healing

[S0V3REiGN]

Armored Agility on Rage builds is actually leaves you NOT needing Streamline or Fleeting Expertise so long as you combine it with maxed Vitality and Steel Fiber and Primed Flow for that essential extra energy storage. You can go in with classic Berserker style recklessness and have all the time in the world to punch Hysteria as needed.

 

I don't run primed flow or flow with my rage build (eternal war build) i think it runs fine but I dont use her other abilities that much.

 

That's my plan too. But with a syandana using Arcane Trickery to be even more badass.

 

My plan is syandana with arcane guardian and helmet with arcane strike. 

 

STOP ME NOW OROKIN!!!

[(PSN)TrueAlastar]

 What about War Cry and 30% Power Strength added in ?

Have them.

[Ashnal]

*snip*

Thank you ... for pointing this out to everybody.

 

I was going to make a similar post with how armor is better looked at as an effective HP booster, rather than in damage reduction terms.

 

I think you missed one KEY fact though that would summarize your post:

 

The amount of damage you can take rises LINEARLY with the armor you have, and each point of armor is just as effective as the last, adding 3% of your actual HP as EHP. Armor does not have diminishing returns like many people seem to think.

 

But you also did bring up the good point that high level enemies will always outstrip your defenses because they scale infinitely while tenno have limits.