Energy System 1.5 (Don't Worry No Cooldowns)

[Lord-KEK]

well here is my shot at the energy system (3 EDIT)

 

1) the purpose of the energy system is to force the player to do resource management and to prevent ability spam (specially #4), if you disagree with this statement please elaborate

 

2) The problem with the energy system is that it fails on its purpose to prevent ability spam and to showcase the energy as a valuable resource

 

now i have studied the energy system for a while, trying to find the flaw and these are my conclusions:

 

-Energy is to easy and too quickly gained, either via Energy vamp, restores and/or orbs. this enables afk spamming.

 

-Energy efficiency is way to powerful, so powerful that a 4th ability costs just 25 energy (+75% P.E) this enables ult spamming

 

-Hard counters to ability spam, like nullifiers and parasitic eximus, do not add challenge to the game, it only makes it more annoying, they also fail to prevent ability spam if the players know how to counter them.

 

-The changes to the power duration affecting channeled abilities (U17.5) as a way to counter the energy eff. cap do not resolve the issue entirely.

 

WARNING: UNLESS THE ENEMY SCALING AND DAMAGE SYSTEM ARE BALANCED FIRST THE SOLUTIONS I PROPOSE WILL ONLY BACKFIRE, SINCE THE ONLY WAY TO STAY ALIVE IN LATE GAME CONTENT IS EITHER INVULNERABILITY OR DAMAGE REDUCTION OR CC SPAM

 

ok with that out of the way, here we go (EDIT) now im integrating here feedback provided by FelisImpurrator

 

THIS IS MY PROPOSAL

 

1) CONVERT ENERGY EFFICIENCY MODS INTO ENERGY GAINED PER KILL, EXAMPLE: 

 

STREAMLINE (MAX RANK) 6 energy gained per kill

 

FLEETING EXPERTISE (MAX RANK) 6 energy gained per kill -30% TOTAL ENERGY CAPACITY (STACKS WITH STREAMLINE/PRIMED)

 

PRIMED STREAMLINE (MAX RANK) 11 energy gained per kill (STACKS WITH FLEETING)

 

this change will allow players to gain constant energy without modifying the energy cost of powers, THESE MODS DO NOT WORK ON POWER KILLS, this is to prevent "perpetual motion" 

 

2) CONVERT ENERGY RESTORES INTO "ENERGY PACKS"

 

ENERGY PACKS: they could work in a similar way to the "league/DOTA" mana potions, like this:

 

EXAMPLE: LARGE ENERGY PACK

 

Restores 100 energy when used and 300 energy over 30 seconds (1E/sec)

 

Energy packs can only be used one at a time, it only works for the user, DOES NOT RESTORE ENERGY DURING CHANNELED ABILITIES

 

3) TRINITY´s ENERGY VAMP. No longer benefits from power strength mods, this is to prevent large ticks of energy, the ability will work like usual

 

BUFF SECTION

 

4) BUFF ENERGY SIPHON, from 0.6e/sec up to 1e/sec OR 1.5e/sec

 

5) ALL WARFRAMES SHOULD HAVE INNATE ENERGY REGEN of maybe 0.5e/sec, this is to enable new players to use abilities more often in case they don't have the mods yet

(STACKS WITH ENERGY SIPHON AND ENERGY PACKS)

 

Expanding on that idea i propose that all warframes to have innate energy regen, warframes that are heavily dependant on abilities should have a higher energy regen, the same way, some warfames right now have larger energy pools (LOKI, NOVA, VOLT PRIME)

 

to further complement this a new mod could be created that increses that energy regen rate

 

-Insert mod name here- (MAX RANK) +100% INNATE ENERGY REGEN (subject to change of course)

 

this is to provide an alternative to the "gain energy per kill" mods

 

 

6) HEAVY DRAIN CHANNELED ABILITIES MAY NEED SOME REDUCED DRAIN (ON A CASE BY CASE BASIS)

 

7) SOME ABILITIES THAT ARE INTENDED TO BE SPAMMED BY DESING SHOULD HAVE A REDUCED ENERGY COST BY DEFAULT

 

 

NOW THIS IS   FelisImpurrator  IDEA (thx for the feedback btw) 

-i must say here that i took the liberty to add some values, for an example, numbers can change, but the idea remains-

 

"-I agree with the energy regen being there by default, Siphon/Riftwalk boosting its effectiveness, tweaks to channeling costs and the like. Energy gain on kill, though... difficult to base an entire system on it. What if the base regen rate were higher, Efficiency simply scaled the rate of recharge, and Energy Siphon granted leech on kill (as the name implies - you're SIPHONING energy from enemies; I always thought it would do that until I got it)?"

 

Energy Siphon no longer grants passive energy regen but now grants energy per kill for the whole squad

(2e/per kill? x4 ES auras 8e/per kill?) ABILITY KILLS DO NOT COUNT

 

STREAMLINE (MAX RANK) +100% INNATE ENERGY REGEN

 

PRIMED STREAMLINE (MAX RANK) +200% INNATE ENERGY REGEN

 

FLEETING EXPERTISE (MAX RANK) +100% INNATE ENERGY REGEN -60% Power Duration (???)

 

STACKABLE WITH WARFRAMES DEFAULT (PASSIVE) INNATE ENERGY REGEN / RIFT PLANE

 

RESTORES REMAIN UNCHANGED ("pancakes"") (btw i dont agree with this but ill leave it here anyway)

 

i hope i got that right, right?

 

 

i know this post will lure a lot of flammers, SO PLEASE KEEP IT CIVILIZED

 

if i misses something related to energy, feel free to comment

Edited October 4, 2015 by Lord_GoldenEye

[weezedog]

I don't really see the problem with the current energy system or ability spam. The entire point of the game is power creep. Take away power creep/progression and all you are left with is leveling weapons and frames. There literally is nothing else in the game.

[Omega-Shadowblade]

Interesting idea but a couple things are out of place. for starters currently streamline < fleeting expertise so setting the energy gained per kill the same is a bad idea. also i must say that at higher level runs this idea would still seriously lead to spamming for heavy attack frames such as ash. i.e. if ash kills the full 18 enemies per bladestorm that essentially means he gets 108 energy for the 100 used and that only because he is limited to 18 enemies per bladestorm, someone like nova could use a single molec prime and end up with much more energy than they started.

[Leavith]

I got an Idea............YOU HAVE TO DEVOUR YOUR ENEMY.Okay i kid on that but here is the Idea.

I am working of what you said.

Well 1st i kind of feel we need a defining point on what the energy our warframes needs to power the abilities.

I kind of feel like is life energy.

(because we get it on kills)(because things release this and we can slowly gain it by absorbing it from the air)(quick thinking and rage)

so based on this i would have to say we just assign a certain amount of energy you gain from killing enemies

Such as level scales the more enemy you kill the more energy you get.
but as level increases the higher level energy you kill th emore energy you get

[Caobie]

how would limbo and the rift regen play with this? when in the rift you have a 2/s energy regen. does this mess with your system or is it irrelevant?

Edited July 22, 2015 by Caobie

[Lord-KEK]

I don't really see the problem with the current energy system or ability spam. The entire point of the game is power creep. Take away power creep/progression and all you are left with is leveling weapons and frames. There literally is nothing else in the game.

so you enjoy the "press 4 to win" strategies? afk farming? survival camping? excalibur in perma-eb the whole mission?

 

also if "There literally is nothing else in the game." why do you keep playing? does power creep and grindy progression make it good for you?

 

Interesting idea but a couple things are out of place. for starters currently streamline < fleeting expertise so setting the energy gained per kill the same is a bad idea. also i must say that at higher level runs this idea would still seriously lead to spamming for heavy attack frames such as ash. i.e. if ash kills the full 18 enemies per bladestorm that essentially means he gets 108 energy for the 100 used and that only because he is limited to 18 enemies per bladestorm, someone like nova could use a single molec prime and end up with much more energy than they started.

power kills do not grant energy, if bladestorm is clasified as power kills it will not gain energy

 

 

I got an Idea............YOU HAVE TO DEVOUR YOUR ENEMY.Okay i kid on that but here is the Idea.

I am working of what you said.

Well 1st i kind of feel we need a defining point on what the energy our warframes needs to power the abilities.

I kind of feel like is life energy.

(because we get it on kills)(because things release this and we can slowly gain it by absorbing it from the air)(quick thinking and rage)

so based on this i would have to say we just assign a certain amount of energy you gain from killing enemies

Such as level scales the more enemy you kill the more energy you get.

but as level increases the higher level energy you kill th emore energy you get

dont apply logic to warframe, is futile, also the enemy scaling must be rebalanced in order to make the energy gained per kill viable

Edited July 23, 2015 by Lord_GoldenEye

[Lord-KEK]

how would limbo and the rift regen play with this? when in the rift you have a 2/s energy regen. does this mess with your system or is it irrelevant?

well it is in my view irrelevant, since power eff. mods wont exist, rift plane will give more energy regen, but it wont be enogh to sustain spamming (it will require testing)

Edited July 23, 2015 by Lord_GoldenEye

[CruelCrow]

so you enjoy the "press 4 to win" strategies? afk farming? survival camping? excalibur in perma-eb the whole mission?

I see that as a problem that lies in several different areas, but not so much in the abilities rather than the enemies and the rewards.

 

What's wrong with camping, by the way? Ever see a horror movie? The people who split up die.

 

There's a reason we stick together, there's strength in numbers. Also, it's kinda annoying when someone expects you to revive them when you're on different sides of the map.

[Acos]

I think at this point I would rather the game balance around our energy spam than try to reign it in. As much as I pointed out how big of a problem it would be when they started adding things like Fleeting Expertise and Energy Restores, I can't pretend like I don't enjoy spamming fireballs all over the place either. 

It's a more complicated solution, but I think it eventually works out better (look at Excalibur). 

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

I don't really see the problem with the current energy system or ability spam. The entire point of the game is power creep. Take away power creep/progression and all you are left with is leveling weapons and frames. There literally is nothing else in the game.

The point of the game is gameplay. Powers already progress: you get mods, level them up, and get augments for them. All those things can exist without being detrimental to gameplay, but because of a few badly designed elements they don't.

[S7ORM]

 

 

[OP]

 

 

I agree that efficiency and energy are an issue. I'd rather, however, change the way efficiency works instead of flat capping it (75%)

Right now, efficiency reduces the cost of the ability directly. For a long explanation, read this:

Quote

Why "Efficiency" is Broken:

 

When I first got Streamline I assumed that 5% efficiency meant I was going to be able to cast 5% more powers before I ran out of power and that was the case, but when I had 25% "efficiency" I was casting 33.3% more powers.

 

Lets do the quick math, imagine you have 300 power, you can cast 3 powers of cost 100 each. Now with 25% Power Cost Reduction (what "efficiency" really is), your power costs 75 and you can use 4. a 33.3% increase in really efficiency.

[...]

Consider Power Strength, you need 100% to double the damage your powers do.

 

100% makes your 100 base damage power do 200 total damage but if you want to double it again, you need 300% to make your 100 base damage power do 400 total damage.

 

Compare that with "Efficiency", you need 50% to half the cost of your powers.

 

50% makes your 100 base cost power end up costing 50% power, but if you want to half it again you would only need 75% to make the same 100 base cost power end up costing 25 power.

 

In the power strenght [sic] example you needed an extra boost of twice what you already had to double your effectiveness, in fact most things on the game work like this.

 

But "Efficiency" actually only needed Half of what you already had to double its effectiveness.

[...]

A 25% Streamline  and a 50% Fleeting Expertise take you to the 75% cap and since we already know that 75% "efficiency" = 300% real efficiency and 25% "efficiency" = 33.3% real efficiency. You go from 33.3% to 300%, that's an insane jump.

 

At the same ranks a 37.5% Stretch and a 75% Overextended take you from 37.5% to 105%.

[...]

Summary:

 

Power Efficiency stat doesn't really give power efficiency, it gives reduced power cost instead.

 

100% efficiency should mean that you can get 100% more casts out of the same energy, not that you can cast infinitely.

Source

Instead, what it should do is increase the number of casts you can make for the same energy.

When you look in the arsenal, you see % stats for your power range, duration, strength and efficiency.

The value of efficiency there is not the value used in the calculation. The initial 100% has no meaning. Efficiency in effect goes from -55% efficiency to 75% efficiency. In effect however, with 75% efficiency, you can use a skill 4 times instead of 1 time. That's a 300% increase (400% total with the initial 100%) in ability to use that ability.

Current Efficiency Calculation:

BaseCost * (1 * EfficiencyModulation) = PowerCost

; where EfficiencyModulation refers to the decimal value of what your mods give in efficiency (i.e. max Streamline is .3)

eg. 100 * (1 * .75) = 25

That's a bit more confusing, and not as intuitive from the power stats in the arsenal.

Therefore, I propose a simpler calculation that also affects spamming of abilities.

Proposed Efficiency Calculation:

BaseCost / EfficiencyStat = PowerCost

; where EfficiencyStat refers to the decimal value of what the arsenal says is your Power Efficiency (i.e. max Streamline is 1.3)

eg. 100 / 1.75 = approx. 57

Basically, skills would cost a bit more, and fourth abilities wouldn't be as spammable (unless you have a supply of energy -- orbs, EV, Limbo...). It's possible that some skills would need cost tweaks because the cost-reduction-as-efficiency scheme has been in the game so long that some skills have been balanced to it (I'm considering draining skills, like Effigy).

In addition to this, we could see the removal of the efficiency hard cap limit -- artificially (and invisibly! There's no tooltip that says efficiency caps at 75% in the game.) restricting players is bleh -- (and release Primed Streamline for sweet, sweet ducats), both still without having ability costs being as low as currently. At max (assuming Primed Streamline would be the same as Primed Continuity and assuming an arcane helm with efficiency), efficiency could be 60+55+15=130. This calculation would give us:

100/2.3 = approx. 43.5 energy

75/2.3 = approx. 32.6 energy

50/2.3 = approx. 21.7 energy

25/2.3 = approx 10.9 energy

for the average skill costs.

Edited July 23, 2015 by S7ORM

[Ninjamander]

so you enjoy the "press 4 to win" strategies? afk farming? survival camping? excalibur in perma-eb the whole mission?

 

I see nothing wrong with camping? Is a coop game, people need to work togueter. Your reply seem a bit rude, don't assume why we think is fine, ask why instead. I admit that on lower level, thing seem overpower, do a high level mission and thing will be different.

 

Please, don't say you have to quit at 20 min on a t4 survival....is hard to get a key thank to all those RNG wall, we need to make the most out of it...DE are kinda forcing us to do so.

[(PSN)avatar-heart]

there is a problem... im just not gonna say what it is because i'd not want anything nerf struck...

[FelisImpurrator]

Energy gain is "too easy"? Not quite. Too simplistic. That part of the problem is two-fold.

 

Energy gain is either too easy or too difficult. There's very little middle ground. Ideally, energy should allow us to consistently deploy our powers whenever we need them, but not allow us to spam a hundred nukes in a row. What happens now is that either energy is so scarce you'll be lucky to cast your ult three times in an exterminate (because the enemies absolutely refuse to drop orbs), or so cheap and easy to get that you can press 4 once per room and never run dry.

 

100 energy cost for a single room ability on a 150-energy frame? 25 for the "bread and butter" that needs to be spammable to make the most use of it, or 50 for a low duration ability (like Smokebomb)? You're constantly running dry, like Frost or Rhino at base values. But then you throw in Rank 4 Fleeting/Streamline, hit the 175% cap with little effort... toss in a Flow/Primed Flow, and suddenly your energy pool is massive and nearly limitless because everything costs under 25 energy to cast. Until a disruptor slaps you and takes you down to zero again.

 

-Energy restores working only for the user: No. Pancakes can be legitimately useful for saving a team that's down or about to go down. You don't need to remove team synergy from items to fix the system.

 

-Ever heard of Nerf Trinity Wednesday? She really doesn't need any more nerfs, she's the poster lobster for getting the hammer every week as is.

 

-I agree with the energy regen being there by default, Siphon/Riftwalk boosting its effectiveness, tweaks to channeling costs and the like. Energy gain on kill, though... difficult to base an entire system on it. What if the base regen rate were higher, Efficiency simply scaled the rate of recharge, and Energy Siphon granted leech on kill (as the name implies - you're SIPHONING energy from enemies; I always thought it would do that until I got it)?

 

-Abilities, in my opinion, should all be cost rebalanced according to their utility. They should have variable costs that aren't bound to the 25/50/75/100 model; for instance, a spammable single target should have a cost of 5 or 10, while an AoE 1 should cost more, like 20. Nova's Wormhole, as a pure mobility tool, should be cheap - like "10 energy" cheap. Other abilities might be fine at 50 or 75 or 100, but based on area of effect, strength, CC potential, and other such factors, some might also be best suited to nonstandard cost values like 30.

 

-Consider balancing ability costs to match the Warframe's base energy pool (although I think base energy needs tweaking anyway; some are too low like Frost/Rhino, others arguably too high like Volt Prime's insanely large pool) - similar to PVP balancing around TTK and TTL instead of DPS, balance it around the number of casts you need to "set up" to use the kit effectively, starting from a full energy pool.

 

For instance, Ember needs to apply a debuff with her 2 to make the most out of her kit, but at base energy/efficiency, Accelerant is two fireballs' worth already in a limited area. Limbo needs to constantly manage duration timers. Three-fourths of Mesa's kit no one uses because of Cheesemaker is buff stacking and cycling. Vauban's only defense is grenade spam.

*snip*

And as I was typing this, I got tenno'd by S7ORM, who explained the idea in my last two paragraphs far better than I could, because it has actual math in it. *slow clap*

*snip*

"Working together" is not, for instance, feeding Mesa blue orbs constantly. I also don't think the game should force us to hide in a sewer like rats, firing guns through a wall of shields for an hour, because scaling is so broken that walking outside for half a second will get everyone instakilled.

 

"DE are forcing us to do so"? That's the problem. The game is "balanced" around a broken energy system and a broken scaling system. That's why we need systems overhauled, so we can actually fight like bloody space ninja in a T4S without turning it into "oneshot them or they oneshot you".

Edited July 23, 2015 by FelisImpurrator

[-Amaterasu-]

If anything this would make it easier to spam powers with a guarenteed 11 from 1 mod per kill you barely need to put in any effort assuming there is no trinity energy would be harder to get in late game missions now than what you propose

Edited July 23, 2015 by -Amaterasu-

[Jamescell]

-1

 

The current energy system is not to prevent ability spam. Abilities start to become spammed early on in mid-game content and it only gets worse from there. The energy system sucks. Cooldowns would at least allow for a means of balancing abilities more reasonably. All those who oppose them are just frightened by the concept of not being able to abuse game mechanics. 

[Jamescell]

Interesting idea but a couple things are out of place. for starters currently streamline < fleeting expertise so setting the energy gained per kill the same is a bad idea. also i must say that at higher level runs this idea would still seriously lead to spamming for heavy attack frames such as ash. i.e. if ash kills the full 18 enemies per bladestorm that essentially means he gets 108 energy for the 100 used and that only because he is limited to 18 enemies per bladestorm, someone like nova could use a single molec prime and end up with much more energy than they started.

It's more about collecting things than "progressing". Once someone has adequate damage mods and a max level frame there's really no "progressing". A cooldown system, however, would allow for things to be balanceable (AKA less powerful/spammable but more meaningful and engaging abilities). 

[Scytze]

I see that as a problem that lies in several different areas, but not so much in the abilities rather than the enemies and the rewards.

 

What's wrong with camping, by the way? Ever see a horror movie? The people who split up die.

 

There's a reason we stick together, there's strength in numbers. Also, it's kinda annoying when someone expects you to revive them when you're on different sides of the map.

How about moving together? I hate camping more than i do grineer ( and thats alot ) it ruins ACTION based gameplay but still i still feel forced to do it as reward systems right now is horrible.

[AlphaHorseman]

The current energy system is actually fine, in my opinion anyways. It allows for the freedom to use powers whenever a player wishes and powers are available to them.

 

To be honest, it feels as though most players have problems with certain frames and certain powers, not the system itself, yet they shoot at the system itself.

 

If that's the case, then create feedback threads on those frames, rather than ask for an entire system change that affects not just the players and Frames you distaste, but the entirety of the player base.

[Lord-KEK]

I see nothing wrong with camping? Is a coop game, people need to work togueter. Your reply seem a bit rude, don't assume why we think is fine, ask why instead. I admit that on lower level, thing seem overpower, do a high level mission and thing will be different.

 

Please, don't say you have to quit at 20 min on a t4 survival....is hard to get a key thank to all those RNG wall, we need to make the most out of it...DE are kinda forcing us to do so.

I see that as a problem that lies in several different areas, but not so much in the abilities rather than the enemies and the rewards.

 

What's wrong with camping, by the way? Ever see a horror movie? The people who split up die.

 

There's a reason we stick together, there's strength in numbers. Also, it's kinda annoying when someone expects you to revive them when you're on different sides of the map.

 

the rewards are RNG related, the enemies are broken at its core by incompetent AI and ridiculous exponential scalling, more so if we can keep them brain-dead and dissarmed most of the time due to spamming

 

i have nothing against camping, i like camping, but when camping in a T4 sur is based around keeping the enemies brain-dead and dissarmed so they wont one-shot, then it becomes a problem, i know there are some other tactics, but most of them relies on heavy CC or some form of spamming ults combined with ridiculous DPS weapons and 4 corrosive projections.

 

 

I think at this point I would rather the game balance around our energy spam than try to reign it in. As much as I pointed out how big of a problem it would be when they started adding things like Fleeting Expertise and Energy Restores, I can't pretend like I don't enjoy spamming fireballs all over the place either. 

It's a more complicated solution, but I think it eventually works out better (look at Excalibur). 

 

"a building must be founded over solid foundations, if not it will colapse under its own weight"

 

 

-your quote goes here-

i read that post some time ago, chaging the Pow. Eff. formula wont stop spamming, because those mods affect all abilities, as i say some abilities are intended by desing to be spamed, while other are "supposed" to be situational, i will expand on that later.

[Lord-KEK]

The current energy system is actually fine, in my opinion anyways. It allows for the freedom to use powers whenever a player wishes and powers are available to them.

 

To be honest, it feels as though most players have problems with certain frames and certain powers, not the system itself, yet they shoot at the system itself.

 

If that's the case, then create feedback threads on those frames, rather than ask for an entire system change that affects not just the players and Frames you distaste, but the entirety of the player base.

 

this is in my op in case you skip it

 

3) HEAVY ENERGY DRAIN CHANNELED ABILITIES MAY NEED SOME REDUCED DRAIN (DEPENDS ON THE ABILITY)

 

4) SOME ABILITIES THAT ARE INTENDED TO BE SPAMMED SHOULD HAVE A REDUCED ENERGY COST BY DEFAULT

[FelisImpurrator]

Cooldowns would at least allow for a means of balancing abilities more reasonably. All those who oppose them are just frightened by the concept of not being able to abuse game mechanics. 

OP said no cooldowns, and I agree. The energy system doesn't have to be like every other game out there to be balanced. I oppose them for flavor reasons - a no-cooldown system that's balanced WOULD at least be different from the hordes of other shooters out there - but I still want energy reworked to achieve that balance. Don't resort to strawmen, it really doesn't help.

How about moving together? I hate camping more than i do grineer ( and thats alot ) it ruins ACTION based gameplay but still i still feel forced to do it as reward systems right now is horrible.

This, to an extreme degree. Although there's a difference between "just camping" (i.e., staying in one spot and holding down the fort) and the type of camping we get in Warframe, which is SPAM ABILITIES TO STUNLOCK/ONESHOT EVERYTHING, REPEAT AD NAUSEAM.

The current energy system is actually fine, in my opinion anyways. It allows for the freedom to use powers whenever a player wishes and powers are available to them.

Unfortunately, that isn't the case. Haven't you ever ended up in a run where you kill two dozen enemies and get maybe half a bar's worth of orbs? Just like opening every locker on the map and getting one health orb when you're sitting at 15HP. Energy acquisition is either "use Trinity exclusively as a mobile battery", "pay resources for an enormous stack of pancakes", "slow trickle with Limbo/ES", or "pray to RNGesus for just one more blue ball".

 

Try playing with zero efficiency modding, too, like the good old days of being too new to have even a Streamline. Compare to running 175% efficiency. Either your ult is rarer than a Grineer Manic, or it's so easy to spam you can just keep mashing the button - more so if you have Flow and a stack of pancakes. I've tried running Rhino with no efficiency and actually attempting to use Charge in a practical way. It's not fun. I also can't think of any frames, except for Trinity and maybe Volt Prime, that don't need to run efficiency to actually use abilities in a timely manner.

[AlphaHorseman]

 

this is in my op in case you skip it

 

3) HEAVY ENERGY DRAIN CHANNELED ABILITIES MAY NEED SOME REDUCED DRAIN (DEPENDS ON THE ABILITY)

 

4) SOME ABILITIES THAT ARE INTENDED TO BE SPAMMED SHOULD HAVE A REDUCED ENERGY COST BY DEFAULT

 

Well, that's the thing. The intent itself is different from player to player, and thus is where the grey areas come into play.

 

Currently, the system allows for players to have the freedom to mod however they wish, and play however they wish. In this change, it challenges that and tells players that they shouldn't have the freedom that they should.

 

And, not all Frames rely on heavy efficiency builds. Chroma builds, Loki extended duration invisibility builds, Nova builds, and many other frames as well. I will admit that my Offensive Frost build does rely on it, as using Ice Wave, Avalanche, and Freeze on conjunction allows for some good battlefield control, even if it isn't the best in higher levels.

 

Currently the system works to allow for player freedom, and that isn't a bad thing.

 

May I ask, what abilities specifically bother you? Or what Frames? Or is it just the entire freedom system in general to use powers or mod them however players wish?

 

Unfortunately, that isn't the case. Haven't you ever ended up in a run where you kill two dozen enemies and get maybe half a bar's worth of orbs? Just like opening every locker on the map and getting one health orb when you're sitting at 15HP. Energy acquisition is either "use Trinity exclusively as a mobile battery", "pay resources for an enormous stack of pancakes", "slow trickle with Limbo/ES", or "pray to RNGesus for just one more blue ball".

 

Try playing with zero efficiency modding, too, like the good old days of being too new to have even a Streamline. Compare to running 175% efficiency. Either your ult is rarer than a Grineer Manic, or it's so easy to spam you can just keep mashing the button - more so if you have Flow and a stack of pancakes. I've tried running Rhino with no efficiency and actually attempting to use Charge in a practical way. It's not fun. I also can't think of any frames, except for Trinity and maybe Volt Prime, that don't need to run efficiency to actually use abilities in a timely manner.

Is that not an issue with energy acquisition then? I understand the OP suggests changing such a system, but such changes would need to be made in an organic space, with many variables between player interactions with the game itself being taken into account. A unilateral "kill = this much energy" system may not be the best way to approach it, as frames like Trinity, Loki and Limbo don't rely solely on kills to get their jobs done.

 

I do have builds like that, haha, and I have fun with those! Frames like extended duration Loki, Slo-Va, Limbo as well, Ash, Valkyr extended duration, and many more. There are a multitude of high end builds that do not rely on efficiency, and that isn't a bad thing. If anything, I can see where people have issues with what they call "4 spam", I take it it's cases like Miasma and Peacemaker? I would think the better solution would be to rework those abilities to make them just as effective as before, but also integrate some player activity and skill as well, to ensure that players find the enjoyment they want from the ability, it is still just as effective, and the power is controlled by the players themselves.

[Lord-KEK]

Energy gain is "too easy"? Not quite. Too simplistic. That part of the problem is two-fold.

 

Energy gain is either too easy or too difficult. There's very little middle ground. Ideally, energy should allow us to consistently deploy our powers whenever we need them, but not allow us to spam a hundred nukes in a row. What happens now is that either energy is so scarce you'll be lucky to cast your ult three times in an exterminate (because the enemies absolutely refuse to drop orbs), or so cheap and easy to get that you can press 4 once per room and never run dry.

 

100 energy cost for a single room ability on a 150-energy frame? 25 for the "bread and butter" that needs to be spammable to make the most use of it, or 50 for a low duration ability (like Smokebomb)? You're constantly running dry, like Frost or Rhino at base values. But then you throw in Rank 4 Fleeting/Streamline, hit the 175% cap with little effort... toss in a Flow/Primed Flow, and suddenly your energy pool is massive and nearly limitless because everything costs under 25 energy to cast. Until a disruptor slaps you and takes you down to zero again.

 

-Energy restores working only for the user: No. Pancakes can be legitimately useful for saving a team that's down or about to go down. You don't need to remove team synergy from items to fix the system.

 

-Ever heard of Nerf Trinity Wednesday? She really doesn't need any more nerfs, she's the poster lobster for getting the hammer every week as is.

 

-I agree with the energy regen being there by default, Siphon/Riftwalk boosting its effectiveness, tweaks to channeling costs and the like. Energy gain on kill, though... difficult to base an entire system on it. What if the base regen rate were higher, Efficiency simply scaled the rate of recharge, and Energy Siphon granted leech on kill (as the name implies - you're SIPHONING energy from enemies; I always thought it would do that until I got it)?

 

-Abilities, in my opinion, should all be cost rebalanced according to their utility. They should have variable costs that aren't bound to the 25/50/75/100 model; for instance, a spammable single target should have a cost of 5 or 10, while an AoE 1 should cost more, like 20. Nova's Wormhole, as a pure mobility tool, should be cheap - like "10 energy" cheap. Other abilities might be fine at 50 or 75 or 100, but based on area of effect, strength, CC potential, and other such factors, some might also be best suited to nonstandard cost values like 30.

 

-Consider balancing ability costs to match the Warframe's base energy pool (although I think base energy needs tweaking anyway; some are too low like Frost/Rhino, others arguably too high like Volt Prime's insanely large pool) - similar to PVP balancing around TTK and TTL instead of DPS, balance it around the number of casts you need to "set up" to use the kit effectively, starting from a full energy pool.

 

-regarding the first part- i agree

 

-regarding  the restore problem, i see your point and i agree to some extent but is there any other option?

 

-regarding the mods- well i suppose it could work like that, but the game is focused around killing, right? why not reward killing with energy? like in PvP

 

-regarding the ability cost- tottaly agree, some abilities are intended by desing to be spamed, while other are "supposed" to be situational.

[weezedog]

so you enjoy the "press 4 to win" strategies? afk farming? survival camping? excalibur in perma-eb the whole mission?

also if "There literally is nothing else in the game." why do you keep playing? does power creep and grindy progression make it good for you?

I don't mind P4W when it is engaging like Excalibur Exalted Blade is. You act like exalted blade is somehow different in principle to using a gun? What I don't like is Press 4 to instantly wipe every enemy off the map. I want it to involve more player interaction. I'm completely ok with spamming abilities, the game is called Warframe not Gunframe. The suits and powers are the focus of the game.

As for why I still play the game, I really wonder sometimes why DO I still play the game? I do enjoy jumping into a game and random killing things, but in 2.5 years there has barely been ANY story progression or endgame content added. I'm beginning to think I'm only still playing out of force of habit or from the completionist in me. And I'm also beginning to think many other players feel this way too.

Edited July 23, 2015 by weezedog