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Energy System 1.5 (Don't Worry No Cooldowns)


Lord-KEK
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This is honestly one of the best energy reworks I've ever seen. I truly love it, although I suspect that a large part of that is because anything is better than the broken efficiency mods we have now. Some parts of the execution seem unnecessary, like the innate energy regen which you'll already basically be getting from kills, but the core concept of regaining a small amount of energy for each non-ability kill is very solid.

 

Something to consider is that CC abilities would become much more widely used, since you could kill the CCed enemies and still get energy. To solve this, maybe CCed enemies grant less energy?

 

+1

Edited by 4G3NT_0R4NG3
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Is that not an issue with energy acquisition then? I understand the OP suggests changing such a system, but such changes would need to be made in an organic space, with many variables between player interactions with the game itself being taken into account. A unilateral "kill = this much energy" system may not be the best way to approach it, as frames like Trinity, Loki and Limbo don't rely solely on kills to get their jobs done.

That's exactly why I disputed the unilateral kills=energy idea. Go back to my first post in the thread.

 

Point about there being a lot of non-efficiency-focused builds taken. But more often than not - and that's the key part - ability use is simply too good with max efficiency, and absolutely awful without it. Rhino and Ember are only the most blatant examples. And if you're a new player with no efficiency mods, you're basically SOL half the time. I suppose a better way to state it is that the problem isn't that there are no frames that work without efficiency, it's that the energy acquisition system (and the efficiency system) severely limit the total range of viable builds.

-regarding the mods- well i suppose it could work like that, but the game is focused around killing, right? why not reward killing with energy? like in PvP

Leave the pancakes alone - or make the direct restore smaller and the regen larger, with each pulse refreshing the regen timer. The other restores should arguably follow the same format. It would actually be a good QoL for pancakes - you don't need to stand on them to wait for each pulse, and can run around while regaining energy - but the regen would throttle spamming. Want the same panic button effect? Lay down three or four the way people already do to prevent oneshots Quick Thinking from insta-failing.

 

The game isn't entirely focused on killing, is the thing - as Alpha pointed out, which is an excellent point. And yes, it would mean more CC spam. So leech on kill shouldn't be the entire foundation of the energy system; maybe as a mod, yes.

I don't mind P4W when it is engaging like Excalibur Exalted Blade is. You act like exalted blade is somehow different in principle to using a gun? What I don't like is Press 4 to instantly wipe every enemy off the map. I want it to involve more player interaction. I'm completely ok with spamming abilities, the game is called Warframe not Gunframe. The suits and powers are the focus of the game.

That's part of what redoing the energy system should do. I don't mind permanent Exalted Blade (it always seemed to me like an 'alternate gameplay mode' that should be able to entirely replace gunplay; the only things I want are a few tweaks so it's not just Exalted Wave, but otherwise, it's fine). But gameplay degenerating into Miasma spam, Peacemaker spam, Radial Disarm or Molecular Prime or Prism toggle spam all day every day, there's your issue - the current system makes it too easy to just do that instead of using the whole kit. "Spammability" itself is not the issue; the question of which abilities should be spammable in which situations is. Besides abilities being interactive, I want to be able to actually build for all of my kit, as opposed to being bad to meh at everything or being cripplingly overspecialized into only having one viable button.

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I haven't played a whole lot of games and generally play games longer over playing more games. My opinion is biased (like everyone else's I suppose) but, would like to add it to the pile.

 

Several years ago, quite a few months before the Diablo 3 hype. I was deeply engrossed in Diablo 2 and got interested in the modding community. My ideal Diablo experience would have a more dynamic power/ability use over the dry skill building and energy potions. I thought about a constant energy regeneration that was fairly quiick to refill but punished players how they might use certain skills and grant a wider frame of abilities instead of pushing to use a combination of just 2-3. After seeing the Diablo 3 videos start to come out, I was really excited to see very similar attitudes from the developers to where and how their resource use were going.

 

Some players might disagree with me but I feel like Warframe could use something similar. Not suggesting each frame have a "different resource pool" but, that it regenerates somewhat quickly. I suppose a system like this would require that energy efficiency be scaled back a bit or capped at a different percentage.

 

Because of some of the energy costs there are quite a few skills i really don't use with frames. Like, I don't ever think I've used Valkyr's ripline offensively. Rhino's charge, since energy efficiency mods make his stomp so much better. But i guess that's more along the lines of Frame rework/balancing.

Edited by TGKazein
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i read that post some time ago, chaging the Pow. Eff. formula wont stop spamming, because those mods affect all abilities, as i say some abilities are intended by desing to be spamed, while other are "supposed" to be situational, i will expand on that later.

I know it won't, but I don't really want to STOP spamming -- it's fun to do. It will, however, effectively double the cost of 4th abilities with max efficiency, so we will see a reduction in anything less than a pre-planned squad (or someone willing to spend a lot of resources on pads).

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-1

 

The current energy system is not to prevent ability spam. Abilities start to become spammed early on in mid-game content and it only gets worse from there. The energy system sucks. Cooldowns would at least allow for a means of balancing abilities more reasonably. All those who oppose them are just frightened by the concept of not being able to abuse game mechanics. 

 

 

It's more about collecting things than "progressing". Once someone has adequate damage mods and a max level frame there's really no "progressing". A cooldown system, however, would allow for things to be balanceable (AKA less powerful/spammable but more meaningful and engaging abilities). 

 

DE is already adamant about having no cooldowns. Never going to happen, sorry. Personally, I think they are completely right too.

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Well, that's the thing. The intent itself is different from player to player, and thus is where the grey areas come into play.

 

Currently, the system allows for players to have the freedom to mod however they wish, and play however they wish. In this change, it challenges that and tells players that they shouldn't have the freedom that they should.

 

And, not all Frames rely on heavy efficiency builds. 

 

Currently the system works to allow for player freedom, and that isn't a bad thing.

 

Is that not an issue with energy acquisition then? I understand the OP suggests changing such a system, but such changes would need to be made in an organic space, with many variables between player interactions with the game itself being taken into account. A unilateral "kill = this much energy" system may not be the best way to approach it, as frames like Trinity, Loki and Limbo don't rely solely on kills to get their jobs done.

 

The abilities intent are not determined by the player, but the devs, the player could find an unconventional way to use them, but that is not a part of the original desing, this happens in many videogames. here in warframe we have the coptering example (yes its not an ability im just putting an example)

 

That's exactly why I disputed the unilateral kills=energy idea. Go back to my first post in the thread.

 

The game isn't entirely focused on killing, is the thing - as Alpha pointed out, which is an excellent point. And yes, it would mean more CC spam. So leech on kill shouldn't be the entire foundation of the energy system; maybe as a mod, yes.

That's part of what redoing the energy system should do. I don't mind permanent Exalted Blade (it always seemed to me like an 'alternate gameplay mode' that should be able to entirely replace gunplay; the only things I want are a few tweaks so it's not just Exalted Wave, but otherwise, it's fine). But gameplay degenerating into Miasma spam, Peacemaker spam, Radial Disarm or Molecular Prime or Prism toggle spam all day every day, there's your issue - the current system makes it too easy to just do that instead of using the whole kit. "Spammability" itself is not the issue; the question of which abilities should be spammable in which situations is. Besides abilities being interactive, I want to be able to actually build for all of my kit, as opposed to being bad to meh at everything or being cripplingly overspecialized into only having one viable button.

 

for that i came up with a solution based on the innate energy i propose combined with a new mod, i added that to my OP check the Buffs section

 

This is honestly one of the best energy reworks I've ever seen. I truly love it. Some parts of the execution seem unnecessary, like the innate energy regen which you'll already basically be getting from kills, but the core concept of regaining a small amount of energy for each non-ability kill is very solid.

 

Something to consider is that CC abilities would become much more widely used, since you could kill the CCed enemies and still get energy. To solve this, maybe CCed enemies grant less energy?

 

+1

 

Enemies under CC ability effect may not grant energy, that is a simple solution, however this will turn CC abilities into some sort panic button, may not be the best solution

 

Oh look, a metaphor. That sure is... an interesting... point?

 

my point there is that if the core mechanics of the game are not solid (the foundations) any tweak  or band-aid fx added on top of that will only make it worse, or not very funtional

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-1

 

The current energy system is not to prevent ability spam. Abilities start to become spammed early on in mid-game content and it only gets worse from there. The energy system sucks. Cooldowns would at least allow for a means of balancing abilities more reasonably. All those who oppose them are just frightened by the concept of not being able to abuse game mechanics.

Funny thing, really. Warframe is sort of a game about having great amounts of power, and cooldowns just... slap that all away. I think it's worth trying to see if we can design a system where ability spam is acceptable in small amounts, amounts that let you force back the enemy tide and have fun, without resorting to cooldowns.

Look at Destiny: You have one ability and you barely get to use it. The classes are almost identical because of it. Who wants that? Who wants a game with too little power? Why can't we find a balance by working with what we have?

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Only way to fix press 4 to win, is to fix the players that like to mash 4 to win. And the only way that'll happen is if guns stop being nerfed so people will actually adknowlage them.

That aside though, I... actualy like your ideas op, you didnt straight up suggest energy nerf, and cool downs, and you introduced some fun sounding mechanics. Energy regen per kill could be a fun thing to have, and I like the idea of frames having innate energy regen.

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Only way to fix press 4 to win, is to fix the players that like to mash 4 to win. And the only way that'll happen is if guns stop being nerfed so people will actually adknowlage them.

I thought a lot of guns were already OP, like Loltor Prime and Vaykor Murderlok.

 

Can't fix players, unfortunately, because... well, fixing people? Not likely. But we can bait them onto less spamtacular paths by making the system more fun.

 

I still think the energy regen on kill should be entirely part of a Warframe mod, a weapon mod set (like Life Strike), or a reworked Energy Siphon.

 

As for innate regen? I think it should be relatively fast... but have the costs balanced in such a way that using an ult will drain a huge chunk, but a movement ability or a single-target can be spammed, a regular AoE or CC is more expensive, and so on. Either you keep a steady stream of cheap powers up, spend a bit more to set up buffs and then go to town with your bread and butter (and guns), or expend your meter in a massive burst that requires you to lay off the casting and recharge for several seconds. With a static meter, you can't have that kind of dynamic spend-or-save gameplay.

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I thought a lot of guns were already OP, like Loltor Prime and Vaykor Murderlok.

 

Can't fix players, unfortunately, because... well, fixing people? Not likely. But we can bait them onto less spamtacular paths by making the system more fun.

 

I still think the energy regen on kill should be entirely part of a Warframe mod, a weapon mod set (like Life Strike), or a reworked Energy Siphon.

 

As for innate regen? I think it should be relatively fast... but have the costs balanced in such a way that using an ult will drain a huge chunk, but a movement ability or a single-target can be spammed, a regular AoE or CC is more expensive, and so on. Either you keep a steady stream of cheap powers up, spend a bit more to set up buffs and then go to town with your bread and butter (and guns), or expend your meter in a massive burst that requires you to lay off the casting and recharge for several seconds. With a static meter, you can't have that kind of dynamic spend-or-save gameplay.

Agreed

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The abilities intent are not determined by the player, but the devs, the player could find an unconventional way to use them, but that is not a part of the original desing, this happens in many videogames. here in warframe we have the coptering example (yes its not an ability im just putting an example)

True, but all powers that were created herein were created so by design of DE themselves. That includes massive usage that we see now. Corrupted's are not anything new, DE has implemented them in a great while. They intended for these powers to be used, either heavily or with tact, it's entirely up to the players to do so. That's the freedom of WarFrame, we are given the tools that DE has designed, but how we use those tools is entirely up to us.

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I still think the best way to control ability spam is to give powers a stamina cost in addition to an energy cost. This can force players to take pauses in order to regenerate stamina as well as add value to mods like Marathon and Quick Rest.

This won't work until stamina costs are removed from movement which is happening soon.

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I still think the best way to control ability spam is to give powers a stamina cost in addition to an energy cost. This can force players to take pauses in order to regenerate stamina as well as add value to mods like Marathon and Quick Rest.

This won't work until stamina costs are removed from movement which is happening soon.

You do realize that Stamina itself is being completely removed, so tying anything to stamina makes no sense.

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six energy per kill .... six energy per kill .... -hits 1 on any frame- ok full energy thanks energy gain nerf

OP: Ability kills don't restore energy.

 

Half the thread: Okay, so does this mean I can spam murdery abilities and get infinite energy?

 

Hmmmmm, I wonder about that.

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OP: Ability kills don't restore energy.

 

Half the thread: Okay, so does this mean I can spam murdery abilities and get infinite energy?

 

Hmmmmm, I wonder about that.

ok -first tonkor once- problem solved

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ok -first tonkor once- problem solved

Tonkor is a bit of an outlier. It solves every problem, short of "died, ran out of revives" or "ran out of grenades, no ammo pancakes", and even for the first one it's kind of a preventive measure anyway.

 

Not saying I agree with making energy come from kills, but the OP DID also mention everything else would need reworking for it to not fail...

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You do realize that Stamina itself is being completely removed, so tying anything to stamina makes no sense.

I understand that 100%. What I am saying is the game already has a mechanic (stamina) that has several things that would make it good to control power spamming or sitting in a channeled state indefinitely. By this I mean there is no resources to pick up and refill it and the only way to recharge it is by taking a small break.

Just because they are removing stamina now doesn't mean it couldn't be readded to serve a different purpose. With that being the case it makes a lot of sense to suggest an alternate idea to the OP's.

Edited by Crewell
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