Energy System 1.5 (Don't Worry No Cooldowns)

[Leavith]

Well if we consider his idea we could get certain mods that allows us to get energy based on damage done to the enemy.

Example something like a life drain.minus the channeling(u guys remember those pvp mods that allow you to gain energy well something like those)

Then his idea would work nicely ,also new aura mods could be added that can allow for this system to received helps.

Then we can make it that energy orbs heal a percent of energy not an amount of the players energy.and boom we got our self a pretty cool system

[Yros]

« 1) the purpose of the energy system is to force the player to do resource management and to prevent ability spam, if you disagree with this statement please elaborate »

 

I believe you are wrong. Ability spamming is NOT something to fight especially since some abilities are SUPPOSED to be spammed (ie. desecrate from Nekros). Though some abilities may need some attention because of some abuse it has nothing to do with the energy system in itself. The energy system is first here in order to implement a difference of cost between each spell hence having some low-cost spells supposed to be spams or with single-targets effects, and on the other hand having some expensive spells with big AoE.

 

Besides that point, your suggestions are definitely bad and would greatly worsen the game removing completely any possibility to play a support role as the energy efficiency would be based on the kills. Moreover your new system would not reduce but on the contrary greatly improve the P4TW current behaviour of some warframes ("Hello, my name is Mesa, I kill 3 units per second allowing me to regain 18 energy per second with only one efficiency mod while using only 6 or 10 energy, thank you for giving me unlimited energy bro").

[Liminal]

I think energy is deeply flawed. 1 skills should (in most cases) be used a lot (mind control, ripline, freeze, etc.) while most 3s and 4s should be saved for special occasions.

I don't really know how they could make it work like that, but I'm pretty sure it depends on a lot of other factors like enemy scaling, mod balance, drops and enemy spawning.

[Tsukinoki]

I have one major problem with your idea as it is presented:
-This provides a massive nerf to slow firing single target weapons.
Who cares if your bow can one shot a single heavy enemy, such as a napalm?
I can fire a tonkor or ogris, or penta, or Atmos or something else that can kill multiple enemies at once and gain much more energy so much faster than you can ever hope to.

And really, why should the single target hard hitting weapons get a massive nerf like this?
Aren't snipers and such already in a bad position without them now negatively affecting how fast you can get energy.

-This promotes kill stealing
Afterall, if I kill the enemies before you do I get the energy and you dont.  Meanwhile if I dont kill steal I wont have enough energy to do anything for a lot longer.

Those are honestly the biggest problems with this.

And even if you can mitigate it somewhat in multiplayer (E.G. nearby allies gain the energy you do) it is still an utterly massive nerf to the single target hard hitting weapons in single player as there is no way to mitigate it there.

Edited July 23, 2015 by Tsukinoki

[Liminal]

it is still an utterly massive nerf to the single target hard hitting weapons in single player as there is no way to mitigate it there.

I'm not for or against the OP's idea, but now that you mention slow hitting guns ... maybe "overkill damage" could grant energy. That way things like the Vectis or the Opticor could keep up by utterly obliterating people.

Of course that would mean infinite energy in low level areas, but it's not like it would make any difference to current day difficulty in that scenario.

[BrazilianJoe]

No. 

 

This idea is stillborn. 

 

It hinges on the 'energy gained per enemy killed' concept, which is deeply incompatible with the game. 

 

Warframe is about mowing down mob after mob of enemy. Some powers are more apt to obliterating large swaths of enemies than others. 

 

This change would make nuker frames insurmountably imbalanced at the expense of the others, possibly ending up with more power than they started with after a single skill cast. 

[Liminal]

This change would make nuker frames insurmountably imbalanced at the expense of the others, possibly ending up with more power than they started with after a single skill cast. 

While I'm not convinced about the OP's suggestion, did you even read the whole thing? That concern is addressed.

[Azamagon]

I think S7ORM possibly touches the more critical part on the Energy-issues; Power Efficiency simply scales FAR too well.

 

Energy how it is right now is a bit difficult for me to say wether or not i like it or hate it. I mean, I have fun spamming powers here and there. I don't think I have a huge issue with spamming powers IN ESSENCE, but more from the fact that it REQUIRES energy-abusive modding. Streamline, Fleeting Expertise and Energy Siphon and you are good to go! They are almost difficult to play without these days (at least while playing solo, considering the hordes of enemies you face). The difference unmodded and modded is way too great (same as with stacking weapondamagemods, but I digress).

 

Also, the fact that if you are unlucky with Energy Orbs, even when modded like above, it can STILL be difficult to keep up casting abilities (again, mainly while soloing)

 

So yeah, my problem is with the different "highs and lows", the scaling, and reliance on both mods and orbs to cast.

 

I guess I'd like it better if energy was more like this:

* All Warframes have innate energy regen (2 energy per sec or so)

* Power Efficiency was actually EFFICIENCY (so 100% eff. = 100% more casts (i.e. halfed abilitycost), not unlimited casts)

 

And... that's it. I'd start with just that. Yeah, it's not too extreme, what does it actually do then?

* Modding for efficiency is not so overpowered to stack anymore. The scaling is linear (not exponential), just like everything else in WF. It's still great to mod for it of course, but not as extremely good as it is now.

* The innate regen causes less reliance on Energy Siphon aura and Enerby Orbs drops. Of course, they both still help greatly, but they would rather be NICE things instead of downright necessary to cast stuff somewhat frequently.

* Newbies can actually casts abilities here and there, even unmodded and with no Energy Orbs dropping.

* Primed Streamline, when/if added, wouldn't be so overpowered.

* You can't spam endlessly. Even with high efficiency you HAVE to wait a bit here and there. And the innate energy regen WILL help you with that, even when unlucky with Energy Orb drops.

Edited July 23, 2015 by Azamagon

[Otakuwolf]

While i do agree the current energy and power system is broken and needs a change, my concern is instead about certain players accepting a change and abandoning the powerspamming, because sadly that's the only way those know and want to play the game.

[FelisImpurrator]

So yeah, my problem is with the different "highs and lows", the scaling, and reliance on both mods and orbs to cast.

Yes. This, especially the highlighted part.

 

I proposed some changes you might find interesting in the other pages. Namely making Siphon the leech on kill aura, rebalancing energy costs dynamically based on the relative utility of each ability instead of using fixed multiples of 25, balancing around casts per (base) energy pool instead (allowing for things like 10, 15, 30, etc. costs)... or alternatively, keeping costs as is, but making innate regen much faster, to produce a result where energy totals are constantly going up and down, as opposed to trickling in slowly and either being expended just as slowly or being wiped in a rapid burst of casting/disruptor punching.

[AlienOvermind]

well here is my shot at the energy system

 

...

I think that's one of the best energy rework suggestion and I gave an upvote, but. I feel it's too big — I feel it will put game's balance in a complete chaos. Like you said yourself, enemy scaling has to be rebalanced. With that our weapons' damage has to be rebalanced — it means most of damage mods have to rebalanced. A lot of warframe mods would need tweaks. So, your energy rework would turn into Damage 3.0 + Mods 3.0 + Energy 2.0.

 

So, while I like it, I absolutely cannot see that happen.

[Lost_Cartographer]

Everything needs to change to make any changes to ability spam work.  Right now, the only real quick fix is to force cooldowns or limit the number of targets that can be afflicted at any given moment, or just disable energy orb drops from enemies killed with powers.  DE is in no rush to do anything however, because it just doesn't hurt their bottom line - the RNG grind everyone loves to hate is so wildly successful they don't even have to try anymore (notice how every new addition to Warframe is largely unpolished and incomplete?)

 

Much as people deny it, camping IS against the very nature of Warframe.  We're not meant to sit in a corner and spam CC to disable our enemies while mowing them down like the imbeciles they are.  That's so counter to everything Warframe is it begs the question as to why One is playing in the first place?  "I'm just gonna sit here and spam #4."  Why?  So you can do it again and again and again?  We're also not meant to go an hour into a TIV survival either, that's just a possibility through infinitely scaling CC abilities.  "High end" and "end game" started back at level 40-50 enemies.  Everything after that is totally not a consideration by DE.  Their own raids boiled down to CC spam because they just don't get it.

 

But alas, we know unless it helps people beat the grind ASAP, they don't jump at things that need looked into.  Making the right adjustments is a whole other horror they have trouble with though.

Edited July 24, 2015 by Littleman88

[Lord-KEK]

They intended for these powers to be used, either heavily or with tact, it's entirely up to the players to do so. That's the freedom of WarFrame, we are given the tools that DE has designed, but how we use those tools is entirely up to us.

 

sometimes, just sometimes that statement is not true, sometimes players find a way to use an ability in a way that wasnt intended (by de devs) or maybe exploit it (which most of the time involves spamming) remember greedy pull? the devs  had to nerf that augment.

 

sometimes an idea looks good on paper, but upon execution, it backfires.

 

 

« 1) the purpose of the energy system is to force the player to do resource management and to prevent ability spam, if you disagree with this statement please elaborate »

 

I believe you are wrong. Ability spamming is NOT something to fight especially since some abilities are SUPPOSED to be spammed (ie. desecrate from Nekros). Though some abilities may need some attention because of some abuse it has nothing to do with the energy system in itself. The energy system is first here in order to implement a difference of cost between each spell hence having some low-cost spells supposed to be spams or with single-targets effects, and on the other hand having some expensive spells with big AoE.

 

Besides that point, your suggestions are definitely bad and would greatly worsen the game removing completely any possibility to play a support role as the energy efficiency would be based on the kills. Moreover your new system would not reduce but on the contrary greatly improve the P4TW current behaviour of some warframes ("Hello, my name is Mesa, I kill 3 units per second allowing me to regain 18 energy per second with only one efficiency mod while using only 6 or 10 energy, thank you for giving me unlimited energy bro").

 

POWER KILLS DO NOT GRANT ENERGY

 

 

I have one major problem with your idea as it is presented:

-This provides a massive nerf to slow firing single target weapons.

Who cares if your bow can one shot a single heavy enemy, such as a napalm?

I can fire a tonkor or ogris, or penta, or Atmos or something else that can kill multiple enemies at once and gain much more energy so much faster than you can ever hope to.

And really, why should the single target hard hitting weapons get a massive nerf like this?

Aren't snipers and such already in a bad position without them now negatively affecting how fast you can get energy.

-This promotes kill stealing

Afterall, if I kill the enemies before you do I get the energy and you dont.  Meanwhile if I dont kill steal I wont have enough energy to do anything for a lot longer.

Those are honestly the biggest problems with this.

And even if you can mitigate it somewhat in multiplayer (E.G. nearby allies gain the energy you do) it is still an utterly massive nerf to the single target hard hitting weapons in single player as there is no way to mitigate it there.

 

its not my fault that single target hard hitting weapons, are less effective at mass killing that automatic or launcher weapons

im not nerfing them, also i propose innate energy regen rate/mod to serve as an alternative to the "energy per kill" mods, suport frames could use that alternative and have lower energy costs to their ablilities.

 

but then we have the killsteal problem, and actually you came with a good workaround, by having, energy gained per kill shared by the squad, like affinity sharing

 

in single player i dont forsee any problems, since all enemies will be killed by just 1 player, althou it will require testing

 

I think S7ORM possibly touches the more critical part on the Energy-issues; Power Efficiency simply scales FAR too well.

 

I guess I'd like it better if energy was more like this:

* All Warframes have innate energy regen (2 energy per sec or so)

* Power Efficiency was actually EFFICIENCY (so 100% eff. = 100% more casts (i.e. halfed abilitycost), not unlimited casts)

 

 

 nerfing eff. will only make eff. mods more mandatory, it may cut down some spamming, but wont stop it, 

[Lord-KEK]

Everything needs to change to make any changes to ability spam work.  Right now, the only real quick fix is to force cooldowns or limit the number of targets that can be afflicted at any given moment, or just disable energy orb drops from enemies killed with powers.  DE is in no rush to do anything however, because it just doesn't hurt their bottom line - the RNG grind everyone loves to hate is so wildly successful they don't even have to try anymore (notice how every new addition to Warframe is largely unpolished and incomplete?)

 

Much as people deny it, camping IS against the very nature of Warframe.  We're not meant to sit in a corner and spam CC to disable our enemies while mowing them down like the imbeciles they are.  That's so counter to everything Warframe is it begs the question as to why One is playing in the first place?  "I'm just gonna sit here and spam #4."  Why?  So you can do it again and again and again?  We're also not meant to go an hour into a TIV survival either, that's just a possibility through infinitely scaling CC abilities.  "High end" and "end game" started back at level 40-50 enemies.  Everything after that is totally not a consideration by DE.  Their own raids boiled down to CC spam because they just don't get it.

 

But alas, we know unless it helps people beat the grind ASAP, they don't jump at things that need looked into.  Making the right adjustments is a whole other horror they have trouble with though.

 

I think that's one of the best energy rework suggestion and I gave an upvote, but. I feel it's too big — I feel it will put game's balance in a complete chaos. Like you said yourself, enemy scaling has to be rebalanced. With that our weapons' damage has to be rebalanced — it means most of damage mods have to rebalanced. A lot of warframe mods would need tweaks. So, your energy rework would turn into Damage 3.0 + Mods 3.0 + Energy 2.0.

 

So, while I like it, I absolutely cannot see that happen.

 

both are right, but the only thing i can do is to post feedback, encourage discussions and hope that at least some of this ideas make into the game

 

eventually.....

[Davoodoo]

Tell me something OP. 

 

How would your idea affect 1's and if your only answer is cost reduction then i already consider this idea a failure.

Cost reduction achieves 1 thing. Each usage of 1st ability delays usage of 4 or cc which are both more powerful and useful and cost reduction simply reduces that delay.

 

Then sorry but 1.5e/s for each siphon equals 6e/s + innate 0.5e/s= 6.5e/s

Bastille with full array of mods lasts 42 seconds, for the whole duration of it you regain 273 energy from energy regen alone and it costs 75.

Invisbility can reach 33seconds duration, for 50 energy cost you regen 214 energy.

Now elephant in the room, irradiating disarm for its base duration of 9s it would regen 58 energy. You just need to put primed continuity and constitution to regen more energy for its duration than it costs.

 

Yea that might have killed 4 spam, but you still got perma cc and ability spam.

Edited July 24, 2015 by Davoodoo

[Lord-KEK]

Tell me something OP. 

 

How would your idea affect 1's and if your only answer is cost reduction then i already consider this idea a failure.

Cost reduction achieves 1 thing. Each usage of 1st ability delays usage of 4 or cc which are both more powerful and useful and cost reduction simply reduces that delay.

 

Then sorry but 1.5e/s for each siphon equals 6e/s + innate 0.5e/s= 6.5e/s

Bastille with full array of mods lasts 42 seconds, for the whole duration of it you regain 273 energy from energy regen alone and it costs 75.

Invisbility can reach 33seconds duration, for 50 energy cost you regen 214 energy.

Now elephant in the room, irradiating disarm for its base duration of 9s it would regen 58 energy. You just need to put primed continuity and constitution to regen more energy for its duration than it costs.

 

Yea that might have killed 4 spam, but you still got perma cc and ability spam.

your maths are correct, however

 

you are taking into acount 4 ES auras with 1,5e/sec each (this will require team coordination and no other auras to be used)

 

lets see what we have right now (ES 0,6/sec) x 4 = 2,4 * 42 sec (bastile full duration) = 100,8 energy

 

it can still be used even when the first bastile is in effect, yes, however that is a full duration bastile that will use narow minded, correct me if im wrong, a smaller bastile is less effective at ccing, unless in narow corridors/doors but that not the point.

 

if bastile is a problem and should not be spammed, then INCREASE ITS ENERGY COST

 

simple.

Edited July 24, 2015 by Lord_GoldenEye

[AlphaHorseman]

sometimes, just sometimes that statement is not true, sometimes players find a way to use an ability in a way that wasnt intended (by de devs) or maybe exploit it (which most of the time involves spamming) remember greedy pull? the devs  had to nerf that augment.

 

sometimes an idea looks good on paper, but upon execution, it backfires.

Ah yes, very true.

 

DE did treat that symptom though.

 

However, many agreed that it was a treatment for the RNG issues of the game, rather than the power itself. A comment on the issue received 150 upvotes in the span of a few days. To quote myself on the previous Hot Topics:

 

Greedy Pull:

The thing about Greedy Pull is that it's a symptom to the problem, not the core of it. The reason why people resort to that kind of farming is because of the Grind Walls put in place against us. It isn't just the grind, as games that have grind sometimes can manage it well. It's the Grind Walls, Time Walls, RNG Walls, and all the other walls that you put in place for us to try and vault over. When players see all the walls placed before them to try and get through/over, they're not going to be happy and play the game throughout various missions, they're going to find the quickest route to overcome the immeasurable walls placed before them.

 

You want players to play the game and be interactive, actually incentivize them by making playing the game not an endless grind, but an enjoyable experience that is rewarding to them. Don't hide the rewards behind obtrusive and oppressive walls (I'M LOOKING AT YOU, MESA GRIND WALL!), make the acquisition process of obtaining something in the game actually enjoyable and fun! Quests were a great start, they added tidbits of lore, even if the missions were the exact same that we experience throughout the game (this needs to be addressed as well), all until you threw everything behind a wait wall.

 

Then came the introduction of more mods to grind and get cores for. How do you think players are going to respond to the even more so massive grind you threw in their faces? They're going to do everything in their power to try and overcome that grind wall and make the acquisition process easier for them to overcome. Nerfing the availability of the cores wasn't the solution either, as now players are more so pushed into these tactics to try and gain sufficient supplies to level up the new mods that come in.

 

Do you really think players enjoy having to level something up after they polarize a slot with a forma? No. Having to go through all that grinding not just once, but multiple times will grate on a players' nerves. So when something like Greedy Pull comes along that can alleviate their frustrations, some players are going to resort to it. They're going to do all they can to try and get out of the rut you've placed them in, and that includes methods that you may not approve of.

 

If these problems were addressed in a more systematic way, then we wouldn't have to be talking about this. Now the problems I am referring to are the endless Grind and absurdly weighted RNG that WarFrame has, that's what needs to be fixed to be more fair to the players. To be more rewarding to those who continue to play the game, to those who stay in a mission nearly for an hour trying to get that one part only to have the weighted RNG not give them a good chance of getting it. The weighted RNG is a massive issue that infuriates players, it does not help with the experience. (I'M LOOKING AT YOU! SHELDON!)

 

Don't nerf the tools the players use, actually make the experience of playing the game more enjoyable so that the players are more exploring in their gameplays, rather than just finding the fastest way to overcome the massive grind walls you place before them.

 

Treat the core of the problem, not the symptoms of it, nor the ways players try to cure that core issue. That core is the insane amount of Walls placed before the players, it doesn't incentivize them to buy plat to overcome it, it tells them to find another game for them to enjoy. It's a simply psychological obstacle, and overlooking it will just create more problems in the future.

 

Edit: People will just resort to other tactics to get the rewards, and whatever DE does to the tools, it won't change that mentality. But, if they actually treat the core issue, which is the insurmountable grind, then things can actually improve.

 

However, I do agree that Greedy Pull had its benefits and detriments, and was in need of some tweaks.

 

On the Energy System though...I don't know if I would agree on that, as many others have stated why the would not.

[Feallike]

Here is my opinion on how to fix the energy system without having a bunch of havoc. Nerf Effenciency to the ground, and nerf flow to the ground. 

 

Effenciency only effects base energy drain of a abililty Streamline is nerfed to 20% energy effenciency, and Fleeting to 40%.

 

Flow only increases energy pool by 100%.

 

So with Max blind rage that is 200 energy on a single ability. With new system: that would decrease to 160 energy drain with a pool of 200 energy. So this would force you to have a trinity along or wait a bit to ever be able to spam anything with high power strength. 

 

Edit: The thing is OP with super complicative fixes that could work they take time to make and the DE would take a long time making them. Instead of making complicative system that will take a year or two to make, a better idea is to give simple things that bandaid the problem for something more complicative along the line to fix.

Edited July 24, 2015 by Feallike

[FelisImpurrator]

Here is my opinion on how to fix the energy system without having a bunch of havoc. Nerf Effenciency to the ground, and nerf flow to the ground. 

 

Effenciency only effects base energy drain of a abililty Streamline is nerfed to 20% energy effenciency, and Fleeting to 40%.

 

Flow only increases energy pool by 100%.

 

So with Max blind rage that is 200 energy on a single ability. With new system: that would decrease to 160 energy drain with a pool of 200 energy. So this would force you to have a trinity along or wait a bit to ever be able to spam anything with high power strength. 

 

Edit: The thing is OP with super complicative fixes that could work they take time to make and the DE would take a long time making them. Instead of making complicative system that will take a year or two to make, a better idea is to give simple things that bandaid the problem for something more complicative along the line to fix.

Nerf Everything is not a fix.

 

Congratulations. You managed to make Rhino even worse somehow. And broke Frost. And... well, just take a look at the max base energy on a lot of frames and check how many of them would only be able to cast maybe twice per mission. Everyone would just demand EV Trin constantly, too. And as I've mentioned... if your "solution" requires another Trinity nerf, it's probably not a good one.

[Pride]

Then we can make it that energy orbs heal a percent of energy not an amount of the players energy.and boom we got our self a pretty cool system

We do have that its called equilibrium and it only works if you take health damage

[Lord-KEK]

We do have that its called equilibrium and it only works if you take health damage

 

i think he means that energy orbs give the player a % of energy based on the pool, instead of a fixed value

 

Nerf Everything is not a fix.

 

Congratulations. You managed to make Rhino even worse somehow. And broke Frost. And... well, just take a look at the max base energy on a lot of frames and check how many of them would only be able to cast maybe twice per mission. Everyone would just demand EV Trin constantly, too. And as I've mentioned... if your "solution" requires another Trinity nerf, it's probably not a good one.

 

thats why i took the liberty to add one of your ideas to my post, i hope i got it right, feel free to correct me

 

and yes the whole energy system cant be based on leeching alone

[Davoodoo]

your maths are correct, however

 

you are taking into acount 4 ES auras with 1,5e/sec each (this will require team coordination and no other auras to be used)

 

lets see what we have right now (ES 0,6/sec) x 4 = 2,4 * 42 sec (bastile full duration) = 100,8 energy

 

it can still be used even when the first bastile is in effect, yes, however that is a full duration bastile that will use narow minded, correct me if im wrong, a smaller bastile is less effective at ccing, unless in narow corridors/doors but that not the point.

 

if bastile is a problem and should not be spammed, then INCREASE ITS ENERGY COST

 

simple.

4es is what ppl are actually running when they arent running 4cp.

 

As for team coordination. 1.5+0.5=2e/s 2x42=84 energy. Even without team auras it still pays itself off. Same as max duration invis. 

 

To what point?? you cant have bastille costing more than 150 energy because thats how much energy does vauban have and it already is spammable as hell, you can slap primed continuity and team with es will regen more energy than it costs.

 

Perma cc still intact and still a problem.

Edited July 24, 2015 by Davoodoo

[Lord-KEK]

4es is what ppl are actually running when they arent running 4cp.

 

As for team coordination. 1.5+0.5=2e/s 2x42=84 energy. Even without team auras it still pays itself off. Same as max duration invis. 

 

To what point?? you cant have bastille costing more than 150 energy because thats how much energy does vauban have and it already is spammable as hell, you can slap primed continuity and team with es will regen more energy than it costs.

 

Perma cc still intact and still a problem.

 

numbers can change but the core idea remains

 

it is easier to bash someones idea rather that coming up with a solution...

 

dont be like the rest

 

what is your solution to the perma cc problem? 

[Lord-KEK]

i insist

[surfingpika]

I don't know if it's been said already, but proposal 1 balances the game even more towards AoE weapons vs Snipers.  Think a single Tonkor shot vs a single sniper shot.  You'd have to at least patchwork in a +energy for headshot kills if you wanted to go that route, and that leaves low clip shotguns feeling off.  

 

This is another unrelated brainstorm, but you keep emphasizing that powers cannot regain energy on kill.  However, some people want to mage it up.  Why not have a few powers (mainly 1s and 2s) that break this rule.  The two powers that come immediately to mind are Fireball and Shock. 

 

Edit: Thinking on perma CC a bit, something that I'd want to see what it looks is adding negative efficiency scaling onto some powers.  Without tweaks to energy pads, it's trading in power for in-game money, but I'd wonder how people would take a carrot approach instead of a stick approach to calming down on ability spam.

Edited October 4, 2015 by surfingpika