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De, May I Have Your Attention Please: Procedural Generation System Isn't Right For Spaceship Tilesets


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First of all, heres is an explanatory video.



I've been walking around with this issue for as long as I play Warframe. Or, at least since I found out that spaceship interiors are quasi-randomly generated.

Quasi-RNG or Procedural Generation works perfectly for natural environments like planets and asteroids in space. Nature doesn't work like we want it to, or should I say: we need much more logic implied into our creations. DE got that part right.

But spaceships aren't natural creations. They are built with a specific purpose in mind and a construction plan. The procedural generation system doesn't suit spaceships. It just doesn't feel right.

Trust me. Ships will feel much nicer if they make sense, and play intuitive. Not to forget the personal attention you can give to a non-RNG'd tileset.

I think this would fit in pretty good with the year of quality.

(not a rant thread)
Edited by Institute-Marksman
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Well, you don't need to shout.

 

 

I think this has been talked about before. The problem with making levels follow a particular logical plan is simple; repetition. 

 

And I know what you're thinking. You're thinking, "But levels are already repetitive!". Well, you just wait till random map generation goes. You think going through the same tilesets is bad? wait till every other mission has the same basic tileset layout.

 

Say goodbye to any variety that might have existed.

 

You can fill everything with as much detail as you like, but unless it's infinite detail, it'll still get more boring and repetitive than a random layout that could have any number of surprises tucked away.

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Well, you don't need to shout.

 

 

I think this has been talked about before. The problem with making levels follow a particular logical plan is simple; repetition.

 

And I know what you're thinking. You're thinking, "But levels are already repetitive!". Well, you just wait till random map generation goes. You think going through the same tilesets is bad? wait till every other mission has the same basic tileset layout.

 

Say goodbye to any variety that might have existed.

 

You can fill everything with as much detail as you like, but unless it's infinite detail, it'll still get more boring and repetitive than a random layout that could have any number of surprises tucked away.

I'm not talking about the stuff inside the tileset, but the tileset itself. It would be a thing of quality to see the ships are actually built with a purpose. It'll get boring running through the same tileset over and over again anyway, might as well make it logically constructed.

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I think what would help is by adding more function specific tiles, like a kitchen, bathrooms etc. It would be cool to randomly run into a room and see 2 grineer dudes siting down and eating, then they notice you and stumble out of their seat to run for their weapon.

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I'm not talking about the stuff inside the tileset, but the tileset itself. It would be a thing of quality to see the ships are actually built with a purpose. It'll get boring running through the same tileset over and over again anyway, might as well make it logically constructed.

"It's going to be boring anyway, might as well make it more boring"?

 

Props for the idea, but I just think it's a bit iffy.

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While I agree with you to a degree things have been like this from the start and it's pretty much "the way the game works". I believe it is random becuase the sheer size of the ships are so vast that we just travel through a tiny portion of them that things may seem random.
 

Still that theory has holes, holes that could possibly be compensated by with more lore and plausible explanations to what "purpose" a room migh have.

We also have to consider that our minds are quite boxed in to thinking in how we usually relate to things - there should be these things in order to do what I expect this should do".

Tech might exist that is just to out there for us to grasp, hence things look strange. However left entirely unexplained this will only appear flawed as no concept is introduced to make us consider it.

Making a planned map would possibly also require a rather massive full-ship-map with sections barred off. Making paths and opening/closing doors to generate "random" maps. That is if you want it to be consistant, yet feel that things are not the same all of the time.

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What if the rooms were generated within a specific shape? I mean, a ship that actually looks like it could be in the shape of a ship as opposed to a bad game of snake.

Alternatively what if the ship tile sets are actually only a part of the whole ship? Doesn't have to be perfectly purposed. (although seeing non-combat rooms would be cool.)

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What if the rooms were generated within a specific shape? I mean, a ship that actually looks like it could be in the shape of a ship as opposed to a bad game of snake.

Alternatively what if the ship tile sets are actually only a part of the whole ship? Doesn't have to be perfectly purposed. (although seeing non-combat rooms would be cool.)

Well, it seems hardly relevant that only a part of the ship would be playable if the entire ship holds people that need killing.

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Trust me. Ships will feel much nicer if they make sense. Not to forget the personal attention you can give to a non-RNG'd tileset.

I think this would fit in pretty good with the year of quality.

this has nothing to do with quality, it'd be a lack in term of design vs gaming experience

 

add to that there is many ships across the solar system

what you're implying, is that a given mission would always have its very own tile, thus leading to boredom play and avoiding some missions

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add to that there is many ships across the solar system

what you're implying, is that a given mission would always have its very own tile, thus leading to boredom play and avoiding some missions

After having done the same tileset ten times, it already becomes boringas it is. I'm already avoiding the Grineer Asteroid and Phobos Tileset.

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Not at all. I'm just saying that ships are not randomly generated, but planned and built with a purpose.

 

Real life ships are.

 

But... frankly? Tell me this-

 

If you suddenly had an incursion of INCREDIBLY dangerous beings with INSANE armaments on your ship/spaceship/habitat/whatever.... are you going to leave ALL of the doors OPEN?

 

First order of business for ANY military or quasi-military facility I know is 'LOCKDOWN' in the case of intruders of any kind. Armed and dangerous ones?

 

I feel that the maps CAN be a bit repetitive, but the ways through are you FINDING ways around and through the enemy's attempts to stop you by permanently sealing doors/bulkheads. (I would be freaking too if Tenno showed up on my ship...)

 

So there will be no easy straight paths to where you need to go. And no, I agree that even then the paths don't always make much sense at all.

 

But hey, space magic.

Edited by Kalenath
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Real life ships are.

 

But... frankly? Tell me this-

 

If you suddenly had an incursion of INCREDIBLY dangerous beings with INSANE armaments on your ship/spaceship/habitat/whatever.... are you going to leave ALL of the doors OPEN?

 

First order of business for ANY military or quasi-military facility I know is 'LOCKDOWN' in the case of intruders of any kind. Armed and dangerous ones?

 

I feel that the maps CAN be a bit repetitive, but the ways through are you FINDING ways around and through the enemy's attempts to stop you by permanently sealing doors/bulkheads. (I would be freaking too if Tenno showed up on my ship...)

 

So there will be no easy straight paths to where you need to go. And no, I agree that even then the paths don't always make much sense at all.

 

But hey, space magic.

Insertion is every single time in stealth. There is no time that they already know you're heres the second you drop down from the ceiling. They only know about you when they see you, and only then do they raise the alarms. There is nothing that indicates otherwise. And just saying 'erhmagerd maintenance lockdown' is a really sad excuse for a weird design issue.

I think this is a thing 'space magic' cannot explain. Mainly because this is clearly a dev thing, not a lore or physics thing.

Edited by Institute-Marksman
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I have yet to see a real ship that leaves all of it's doors open and unlocked all the time. We all know what that got the Titanic.

 

Yes, I am trying to explain game mechanics in a far future sci-fi video game with logic, so it won't mesh all that well.

 

Still, I think it works well enough for me to keep slaughtering Corpus/Grineer/Infested, so its enough for me.

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I have yet to see a real ship that leaves all of it's doors open and unlocked all the time. We all know what that got the Titanic.

 

Yes, I am trying to explain game mechanics in a far future sci-fi video game with logic, so it won't mesh all that well.

 

Still, I think it works well enough for me to keep slaughtering Corpus/Grineer/Infested, so its enough for me.

Warframe isn't all that scifi: it's based on art and concepts of more then 10 years old. Not really up to date.

Ofcourse you can play, but this is a quality thing.

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Warframe isn't all that scifi: it's based on art and concepts of more then 10 years old. Not really up to date.

Ofcourse you can play, but this is a quality thing.

 

One thing I just thought of.

 

The MISSION starts stealth until you decide to rush, or whatever.

 

What are the odds that they DON'T know that SOMETHING just entered the ship?

 

Modern day ships have sensors capable of detecting changes in air pressure. This is VERY important in submarines and spacecraft for obvious reasons. Keep air inside, keep water or vacuum out. Most of these are fairly low tech and almost impossible to fool in many cases. So it can theorized that Corpus/Grineer know that SOMETHING just changed, just not WHAT. Until they see Tenno, they have no idea. On alert, but not alarmed. Infested might detect the same via some kind of biotech or maybe Tenno have a distinct smell?

 

Just a thought, but the Infested ships are derelicts. They are a mess from being attacked and subsumed by the Infested even BEFORE the Infested start messing the places up worse. So parts of them will be blocked off/impassable.

 

Maybe we will see overt 'Door locked GO AWAY' things for Grineer/Corpus?

Edited by Kalenath
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Well, even in real life there's some variation between ships of the same class. I think the ships should be quasi-random but with a general layout plan. Figure out the shadow of the ship and got the rooms into that shape. And put actual findings rooms, like a bridge and an engine room and so on, not just endless cargo bays.

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Ok, i can see where you're coming from, and why this makes sense to do, I had the same thought a year back or so.

 

However, let's just go and think a little about what we're dealing with.

First off there are a lot of doors that are closed off, meaning that a good portion of the ship we simply don't have access to, what the reason for this is, no one knows, however, what we are going through could simply be half of the ship.

Secondly we don't know the exact size of the ships, they could be massive, even the size of small, or even large, cities. At that point there is bound to be some randomness involved, at least to the unedjucated ones, like me. I wouldn't get to feel the layout of the ship simply by walking through 1/100 of the entire ship.

 

As said I can see why it would make sense to custom build everything, but i think there's just as much reason to keep the current system as there is to change. At least they won't have to make entirely new levels if they keep the current system.

 

A thing i however would love to see is more everyday rooms on the ships, as mentioned by others.

A sleeping area, a kitchen, I mean even something as a boarding area or engine room, not to mention the lack of work force.

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I will say just one thing here -

 

No matter how hard DE tries and what they implement, random generation or not, Warframe WILL be boring after a certain amount of time.

 

There are two reasons for that. One is DE's fault, other (the bigger reason) is inevitable.

 

1. Warframe does not offer any extra activity like other traditional RPGs. No side quest, no secondary objective. It is just 'take your gun and kill'. This is DE's design fault.

 

2. The other major reason is the amount of time one invests in Warframe.

 

No, seriously, when was the last time when you invested 150+ hours in one single game?

 

The last game I invested maximum number of hours was Witcher 3. Around 70 hours. Even if I tried, I probably would have spend about 100 hours in Witcher 3.

 

On the other hand, 300 - 500 hours gameplay is pretty common in Warframe. Mainly because its an online game, because contents are still being added to it.

 

With that amount of time spent, people are bound to be 99% familiar with the tilesets, no matter how DE generate those.

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A very good idear. It may give players someday a new feeling of missions, giving them more of a target, than a blueprint, how to do the mission.

Example:

Stop the ship, before it reaches a city of innocent people. You can

1. Destroy it (Sabotage)

2. Kill the Crew (Extermination)

3. Change the target of the ship (Deception)

 

Or you have to distract the local enemy fleet. You can

1. Hack their communication (Interception)

2. Crash the ship into another (Deception)

3. Try to steal the important artifact, they want to have (Defense)

 

This would get us one step closer to the things listet above!

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Well, as a seaman, I can only agree that I would like to see more tiles that would actually look like they are part of a real vessel. I mean, I can assure you that no vessel in the world in just an assembly of alleyways and empty rooms. I was actually glad to discover a bridge tile, but it's a pity it's just standing here, with nothing special to do: sould home special ennemies (eximus, heavies...) and could even be the last tile of the level. Would make sense, wouldn't it?

 

Not even speaking about crew's quarter, engine room, workshops... There is already some special tiles (like the one with the hughe gun in the middle, shooting from time to time: brilliant, except ther is nobody manning it), but the new tileset from Uranus is completely shadowing the oldest ones. And yeah, you get the feeling in the end that this ship is stangely shaped...

 

Something in the same way as the new Grineer underwater set could be nice, maybe: a "semi-random" stuff, with "mandatory" tiles in specific places joined by random tiles, to create a feeling of progression through the stage. We could be fighting ou way in the galleon from fighter's hangar to bridge, while passing through crew quarters, engine room, battery control... and while travelling globally the same direction! Vessels have usually a straight shape, you know...

 

Would be good for immersion. I guess.

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