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We Need Better Trading Protection.


magusat999
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I am outraged because of after getting ripped off in a trade I was told that nothing would be done due to ambiguity. I submitted this dialog to support (unedited):

 

cZsQguG.png

 

The first part of this is to ask the community - is this "ambiguous" to you? I have worked in enforcement for many years, and to me this is very clear. But support tells me he "Can't tell, it's ambiguous. He may of been talking about one item...".

 

My interpretation is different - although it doesn't seem to matter. This conversation one during the trade. At the end of the conversation, he took off with my money and put me on ignore.

 

1) I clearly informed him I want both.

 

2) I asked for the price for BOTH. He gave me ONE PRICE. He did not say "55p for the Scindo, and I am not selling the

Hikou"; Which was his behavior after selling me the Scindo set. He simply answered my "both" query with one price - 55p.

 

3) After saying "ty :3" He immediately ignores me. It's possible he might have ignored me after I said "What about the Hikou?" - But wouldn't ignoring someone, just after getting their money, in either case raise suspicions? We didn't argue, there is no reason for him to ignore me at that point. To me, that signifies an intent.

 

4) Granted, I slipped up and put all of the plat in the initial purchase - there I made a stupid mistake. But even so, should that be a reason to dismiss - or should we expect protection even if we make mistakes? What if someone has a key board error, or accidentally put 1000 plat when they meant to put 10 plat, and missed it? does that mean a thief gets to keep their money, because of that error? DE steps in when a purchase raises flags and makes changes - so don't tell us these transactions are not logged, or private in any way - or that the chat records are not archived and cannot be accessed if needed. We should have better protection.

 

So does that sound "ambiguous" to you?

 

The second part is, due to my experiences and others I have heard about - we need to be better protected. Both buyer and trader. Support needs to be more proactive in protecting us - just as they are in pursuing trades they don't like. Some things I suggest:

 

1) Stop pretending chat isn't logged. When it suits you, you pull up chat logs. When someone like myself need you to help solve an issue, suddenly e are being asked for chat screenshots. Acknowledge that it is ridiculous to request screenshots of every offer posted in Trade - we would be screenshotting until our hard drive fills up. And do the research yourself, pulling up the appropriate chat dialog you need to solve the issue. It is our assumption it IS logged (for legal purposes) so please don't treat us like we are stupid and pretend it isn't.

 

2) Involve all users in an issue in solving a case. Instead of looking at my submission and saying "Well, you didn't submit enough..." Speak to the other  (accused) party about the problem. In my case, they could have asked him questions about his behavior - like why did he ignore me right after the trade when he knew I wanted another item.

 

3) Have an in-game support system where we can report and have issues solved immediately, and give this support system chat log access. Put the grape-text people to work in this. Make it a more streamlined process where both parties can dislog it out with a mediator (NO IGNORE DURING THAT PROCESS).

 

4) Speaking of being ignored after purchase - disable ignore for 48 hours of a purchase. If a person was good enough to give / take your money, they should be good enough not to get ignored. During this time, a buyer and seller have a chance to  fix any issues. The 48 hours will consist of ONLINE TIME. That means it is relative to the time you are in game, so a person cannot disconnect and let the 48 hours pass. Certain actions will prove damning to an accused during this period - like not answering concerns about a purchase; not responding to purchase related queries. The dialog may be logged and can be used in a dispute. If after this time an agreement cannot be made - or if one or the other is totally blown off - or told off. Then this information will be used to force a settlement by grape-text support. Going to the website should be unnecessary, unless there is an escalation.

 

5) Speaking of escalation - we should have tiered support. Instead of one person in support telling us "NO, we can't help you... case resolved." We should be able - like any other company - to say, I want this escalated to a higher level because I don't think you have the tools to address it at your level (or whatever the reason). We shouldn't be "stuck" with the random support person's decision, as if it's some kind of dictatorship. They should also be required to give a clear, comprehensive reason as to why they decide against helping you. I got "It's ambiguous" - and that's it. What kind of explanation is that?

 

I don't have all the answers to this, this is just to open dialog and to ask people if what I think is wrong. Am I crazy to think this is clear cut? And I'm sorry but just because someone works for DE support does not give them Sherlock Holmes skills. I am not giving them all of that - it's a game company, not CSI. I'm not going to say "Well they must know how to solve a case because they are DE support!". It takes a lot less than the qualifying as a detective than a support person...

 

 

 

 

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I understand your pain, however this does look ambiguous.

 

You still have hikou / Scindo sets?

 

You used slash, which in formal writing stands for "or", therefore it is possible to assume you were interested in one of the sets, not in both.

 

How much was it again?

 

The use of singular verb and subject indicates a single set, in case of two sets it should have been how much were they?

 

In your own words you have never asked for both,

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I am outraged because of after getting ripped off in a trade I was told that nothing would be done due to ambiguity. I submitted this dialog to support (unedited):

 

It sounds like you should not have put your money down on the Trade window until he had placed what you were expecting to buy.

 

That said - yes, it *could* be ambiguous.  But, IMO, the fact that he ignored you immediately after suggests that he jumped at an opportunity you gave him to cheat you.  Not that he necessarily was intending to do so form the start, but he saw the shot, saw it was safe, so he took it.

 

In the future, don't confirm a trade as acceptable unless it is.

Edited by Incunabulum
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This is nonsense.  You have to go through multiple prompts to confirm a trade.  If someone somehow manages to enter the wrong amount of plat and then offers it, accepts the trade and presses OK on the prompt after they press the accept button, they  only have themselves to blame.

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First of all I already said that accepting the trade was dumb of me in the first place, no need to beat me up over that - I acknowledge my mistake - but that doesn't mean a criminal gets off.

 

Second, as far as the english lesson - the whole conversation must be considered in order to determine what terms mean. I already specified I wanted BOTH. I asked the price - not prices - PRICE (singular). So what was I asking the price for? Well the first thing I said was what? "You still have hikou / scindo SETS. Sets is what I am asking about obviously. It is now about the SETS, not the individual items. I said SETS, and I said BOTH - its obvious I want the total price for both SETS. The Theif understood that, otherwise he would have said "x price for the Hikou, x price for the Scindo". He didn't do that because he knew I wanted both, so he gave me the combined price as I asked (inferred). (Also I don't have a pic for this but that is the total for what he was offering - he KNEW what I was asking him). So the english cannot be confused. And you know it isn't confusing, lets not make this into an english test because we can get bogged down in every post on this website if that's the case.

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First of all I already said that accepting the trade was dumb of me in the first place, no need to beat me up over that - I acknowledge my mistake - but that doesn't mean a criminal gets off.

 

Second, as far as the english lesson - the whole conversation must be considered in order to determine what terms mean. I already specified I wanted BOTH. I asked the price - not prices - PRICE (singular). So what was I asking the price for? Well the first thing I said was what? "You still have hikou / scindo SETS. Sets is what I am asking about obviously. It is now about the SETS, not the individual items. I said SETS, and I said BOTH - its obvious I want the total price for both SETS. The Theif understood that, otherwise he would have said "x price for the Hikou, x price for the Scindo". He didn't do that because he knew I wanted both, so he gave me the combined price as I asked (inferred). (Also I don't have a pic for this but that is the total for what he was offering - he KNEW what I was asking him). So the english cannot be confused. And you know it isn't confusing, lets not make this into an english test because we can get bogged down in every post on this website if that's the case.

Honestly, I wouldn't have interpreted it like that. I rarely trade now, but it wouldn't be uncommon for me to say things like "WTT 20 plat for Brutal Tide/Life Strike" and mean either one. Now, because he ignored you I think you're right, but I could see someone misinterpreting it.

Anyway, I think there should be a warning that appears if someone changes the price, but that's not really applicable here. There's already a confirmation check and you just have to use it.

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You should have paid a different amount plat per set instead of giving him the rest. Honestly after seeing people complain about this stuff it is all your own doing and DE doesn't have to be responsible for "your" actions. After all you did just pass him the rest of the plat without thinking. Stuff like this happens in real life to, learn from it and move on.  

The description in trade chat also states it doesn't hold any responsibility on trade chat. 

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Every time someone brings up a solution they feel the need to comment on the mistakes of the victim instead of even considering a different trading system. Until people realize that this will keep happening until we do something about it instead of attacking victims, nothing will change.

I sympathize for you and I hope eventually people will see how much grief could be prevented with any number of solutions.

Edited by CruelCrow
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You should have paid a different amount plat per set instead of giving him the rest. Honestly after seeing people complain about this stuff it is all your own doing and DE doesn't have to be responsible for "your" actions. After all you did just pass him the rest of the plat without thinking. Stuff like this happens in real life to, learn from it and move on.  

The description in trade chat also states it doesn't hold any responsibility on trade chat. 

I took responsibility for my action in two posts already, don't now why you even said that at this point. I never said it was not DE's "fault" that this happened to me, I already said I was dumb for placing all the plat without him posting everything in the first place. My point is that in trying to correct the issue I'm told it is "ambiguous" - which it clearly is not. That's all. And there could be a better trade process and protection so that this kind of stuff doesn't happen at all. And all companies have disclaimers waiving them of responsibility - but that doesn't stop them from enacting / enforcing policy and protections.

 

If you were cussing someone out, and they shot your leg off - can the police tell you "You cannot pursue charges because you were cussing the other person out?". You actions do not absolve the police of their responsibility to protect you, just as in your post, my stupidity does not absolve DE from pursuing a thief. Saying "You were stupid so you deserve to be ripped" off is just ridiculous - so you advocate allowing a thief who goes around ripping someone off in Trade to just go after another victim, because you think I made a dumb move? What about insisting the trader have some honor and not rip people off? I have been in a number of trades where someone made a mistake like this and I didn't rip them - I told them, "Hey you put extra items in there" or "Hey, you put the wrong amount in there" - what your saying is a bad, pathetic excuse to close your eyes and let people get ripped off.

Edited by magusat999
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The way you phrased it (hikou/scindo) means you are asking for either the hikou or the scindo, not both.   A slash means "or". 

 

Example: "A cat/dog makes a good pet," means the same thing as, "A cat or dog makes a good pet."

 

Saying you are interested in both can just mean you want to buy either set.  If you thought 55 was the price for both then you should have only given him 27 plat in the first trade and 28 in the second.

 

You didn't get ripped off.  You were ambiguous, so you can't blame the other party.

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Came here for an unrealistic request, got a grammar lesson.

 

Ok, lets assume that this current system is as broken as the [insert political commentary], what are your ideas?

 

The trade system has a GUI that displays the current items up for bid, and prompts asking whether you are sure you want to trade said items and something along the lines of: "Are you sure?". Do you want a "Are you really sure?" prompt?

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Came here for an unrealistic request, got a grammar lesson.

 

Ok, lets assume that this current system is as broken as the [insert political commentary], what are your ideas?

 

The trade system has a GUI that displays the current items up for bid, and prompts asking whether you are sure you want to trade said items and something along the lines of: "Are you sure?". Do you want a "Are you really sure?" prompt?

If you come into a topic and want to respond - don't you read the OP before anything else? This is the THIRD time I have posted to say this - I already said I was STUPID to place all of the plat in that one transaction and STUPID to press agree. Does that mean I should expect no protection for getting ripped off?  NO... I'm not saying anymore on this, I already addressed it earlier. Scroll up.

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If you come into a topic and want to respond - don't you read the OP before anything else? This is the THIRD time I have posted to say this - I already said I was STUPID to place all of the plat in that one transaction and STUPID to press agree. Does that mean I should expect no protection for getting ripped off?  NO... I'm not saying anymore on this, I already addressed it earlier. Scroll up.

I understand that you addressed that you were mistaken for agreeing to the trade. My "came here for an unrealistic request" comment is from me first off wanting to fit a memed phrase "Came here for ____, got a ___", and secondly because I don't think that DE can provide "trade protection".

 

I took responsibility for my action in two posts already, don't now why you even said that at this point. I never said it was not DE's "fault" that this happened to me, I already said I was dumb for placing all the plat without him posting everything in the first place. My point is that in trying to correct the issue I'm told it is "ambiguous" - which it clearly is not. That's all. And there could be a better trade process and protection so that this kind of stuff doesn't happen at all. And all companies have disclaimers waiving them of responsibility - but that doesn't stop them from enacting / enforcing policy and protections.

 

If you were cussing someone out, and they shot your leg off - can the police tell you "You cannot pursue charges because you were cussing the other person out?". You actions do not absolve the police of their responsibility to protect you, just as in your post, my stupidity does not absolve DE from pursuing a thief. Saying "You were stupid so you deserve to be ripped" off is just ridiculous - so you advocate allowing a thief who goes around ripping someone off in Trade to just go after another victim, because you think I made a dumb move? What about insisting the trader have some honor and not rip people off? I have been in a number of trades where someone made a mistake like this and I didn't rip them - I told them, "Hey you put extra items in there" or "Hey, you put the wrong amount in there" - what your saying is a bad, pathetic excuse to close your eyes and let people get ripped off.

The two cases are not comparable. The police have an obligation to protect people and pursue wrongdoers, especially in cases involving bodily injury like in your analogy. To my knowledge, DE has no such obligation.

 

Plus, considering the feedback within this thread, the other user involved could easily invoke "misunderstanding due to grammar" and such as a defense, at which point DE could do nothing but say "be more careful next time" to you. Just calling them a thief (no matter how justified it may be), doesn't change the fact that you did hit OK. That is all the legal ground that this other user needs to counter your claims.

 

People may be humiliating you right now, but realistically, nothing can be done. I'm sorry for your loss, but there is nothing that can be done.

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The way you phrased it (hikou/scindo) means you are asking for either the hikou or the scindo, not both.   A slash means "or". 

 

Example: "A cat/dog makes a good pet," means the same thing as, "A cat or dog makes a good pet."

 

Saying you are interested in both can just mean you want to buy either set.  If you thought 55 was the price for both then you should have only given him 27 plat in the first trade and 28 in the second.

 

You didn't get ripped off.  You were ambiguous, so you can't blame the other party.

Even if it is determined that the slash could mean "or" in this case (/ btw doesn't ALWAYS mean "or", it COMMONLY means "or". In your fervor to just be right you forgot something. i didn't ask price in the "/" sentence. I asked piece in a subsequent sentence which clarified my question - AND referred to his post / intent. My question referred to his original post, asking the PRICE - not PRICES of BOTH. He understood the question because he gave ONE PRICE without any qualifiers or identifiers. The same total price he recalled he posted in his trade post.

 

And even if he was confused, which he was NOT. he knew how much he asked for those items. He knew that was not the right price. He knew that combined those items cost that amount. There is no "ambiguity" in that. Your forgetting that as well. the seller knows what his prices were, and because I put more in the trade slot does not absolve him of all guilt. His action should have been to either put the other item in his slot or inform me I put too much money in the slot - not take my money, ignore me and run off.  Following your line of thinking anyone who has a crime committed against them is their fault - 9 time out of 10 a person who is a victim becomes so by making a mistake - so I guess its their fault someone committed an offense against them? Maybe the victims should go to prison instead??? no, I made an error, but it is not my fault he chose to steal from me, he had ample chance not to. Remember he accepted the trade too...

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I understand that you addressed that you were mistaken for agreeing to the trade. My "came here for an unrealistic request" comment is from me first off wanting to fit a memed phrase "Came here for ____, got a ___", and secondly because I don't think that DE can provide "trade protection".

 

The two cases are not comparable. The police have an obligation to protect people and pursue wrongdoers, especially in cases involving bodily injury like in your analogy. To my knowledge, DE has no such obligation.

 

Plus, considering the feedback within this thread, the other user involved could easily invoke "misunderstanding due to grammar" and such as a defense, at which point DE could do nothing but say "be more careful next time" to you. Just calling them a thief (no matter how justified it may be), doesn't change the fact that you did hit OK. That is all the legal ground that this other user needs to counter your claims.

 

People may be humiliating you right now, but realistically, nothing can be done. I'm sorry for your loss, but there is nothing that can be done.

I'm not humiliated when i am right. Disappointed that people stand up for wrongdoing - but not humiliated. Oh I addressed that "grammar" error, btw.

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I'm not humiliated when i am right. Disappointed that people stand up for wrongdoing - but not humiliated. Oh I addressed that "grammar" error, btw.

No one is standing up for the guy nor the act. He should have acted honorably, but he didn't. Yes, some are going after you for your mistake, unfounded as it may be due to your admission. But your platform, your claim that DE should have something that can prevent things like this in the future is wrong.

 

My rebuttal to your 5 points:

 

1.) Even if chat logs are logged, how would they know which logs they are? "PMs from _____ around this time_____" doesn't cut it, the process of digging through chat logs has to be time consuming. It is easier and simpler to just ask for screenshots.

 

2.) Fair enough for severe cases, but people can and will lie. And legal obligations and grounds only go so far.

 

3.) Do you know who many complaints they receive a day? Do you know how much support staff and customer service personnel they would need to personally deal with every issue the moment after something happens? Also grape-text people are not for that, they are there to answer questions from newbies and such.

 

4.) P1: "You know that that trade was unfair and that you cheated me." P2: "Sorry, I gtg. I'm headed to my uncle's soon and I got to pack, bye" 48hrs later: *ignore*

 

5.) CS rep: "Sorry, we can't help you" P1: "Let me speak to your manager" CS rep: "they won't be able to help you. We literally cannot help you" P1: "Let me speak to your manager" CS rep: "We cannot ... fine" Manager/next level CS rep: "We cannot help you"

Edited by Insizer
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If you come into a topic and want to respond - don't you read the OP before anything else? This is the THIRD time I have posted to say this - I already said I was STUPID to place all of the plat in that one transaction and STUPID to press agree. Does that mean I should expect no protection for getting ripped off?  NO... I'm not saying anymore on this, I already addressed it earlier. Scroll up.

Yes, because you weren't ripped off. The way you phrased things makes what he did completely reasonable.

 

You should be asking for DE to increase trading slots to 8 at a time rather than 4 at a time.  That is a more reasonably suggestion, because he did nothing wrong.

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No one is standing up for the guy nor the act. He should have acted honorably, but he didn't. Yes, some are going after you for your mistake, unfounded as it may be due to your admission. But your platform, your claim that DE should have something that can prevent things like this in the future is wrong.

 

My rebuttal to your 5 points:

 

1.) Even if chat logs are logged, how would they know which logs they are? "PMs from _____ around this time_____" doesn't cut it, the process of digging through chat logs has to be time consuming. It is easier and simpler to just ask for screenshots.

 

2.) Fair enough for severe cases, but people can and will lie. And legal obligations and grounds only go so far.

 

3.) Do you know who many complaints they receive a day? Do you know how much support staff and customer service personnel they would need to personally deal with every issue the moment after something happens? Also grape-text people are not for that, they are there to answer questions from newbies and such.

 

4.) P1: "You know that that trade was unfair and that you cheated me." P2: "Sorry, I gtg. I'm headed to my uncle's soon and I got to pack, bye" 48hrs later: *ignore*

 

5.) CS rep: "Sorry, we can't help you" P1: "Let me speak to your manager" CS rep: "they won't be able to help you. We literally cannot help you" P1: "Let me speak to your manager" CS rep: "We cannot ... fine" Manager/next level CS rep: "We cannot help you"

Rebuttal to your rebuttal.

 

First off my "claim" started off as just asking people if they were as confused as the DE support person about my statement. other people took it other places.

 

1) Umm - they know the usernames, They know the timeframe. They have and keep chat logs in a database. They have search and retrieval functions (tools) for that. That's not hard. Really - it isn't.

 

2) DE Support can decide on the severity, really a non-issue to be debating about.

 

3) Doesn't matter how many complaints they receive (they offer support and that is their job.)and we aren't complaining about the time-frame in which they respond - s this is a non-issue as well. As a user that is not my concern. When I write a complaint I don't look or ask "How many complaints do you have??? Should I write one now? Are you too busy? ". Who does that??? Oh - NOBODY. I could care less, if you offer it do what it takes to make it work.

 

4) The only way the other player can avoid the issue is to never play with that account again. Your example does not break that. Its48 hours GAME TIME, not REAL TIME. (READ IT AGAIN).

 

5) At least there is a chance that you will get helped and someone might look at it differently. it also puts a little heat on the CS1 to do their job properly and without bias or laziness, knowing it will be looked at by someone who can affect their job.

 

Yes, because you weren't ripped off. The way you phrased things makes what he did completely reasonable.

 

You should be asking for DE to increase trading slots to 8 at a time rather than 4 at a time.  That is a more reasonably suggestion, because he did nothing wrong.

Its still a rip off. What you say doesn't change that. it's never "reasonable" to take what doesn't belong to you, no matter how someone slips up. "Hey I found your wallet - but for a minute I thought it was mine so I spent all of the money in it... YOUR FAULT."

 

And remember folks the whole slash controversy is not applicable - because the question where the slash is located isn't asking price - it's asking if he still has the items. There are 11 million WF users. 4 or 5 don't make me wrong.  There is still the clarification of BOTH... And this is not an english class, so... ya

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1.) I didn't know you worked for DE. You must have excellent knowledge of their database to make such a claim, especially when you say things with such confidence.

 

2.) I agree, they have the right to decide severity level and such. Not much to argue here.

 

3.) "Doesn't matter how many complaints they receive" If you have worked any customer service job in your life, you'd know this argument is BS. Also, it is not a matter of doing "their job", it is a matter of being bombarded daily by complaints (some valid, some not), it is a matter of numbers, not effort... And yes, you were complaining about the time frame.

 

4.) I misunderstood what you meant by game-time, forgive me. But in that case they can just log in at different times of the day. Also, on a grander scale, ignoring someone after a trade is perfectly reasonable if they were being bombarded by someone. What happens if it is just a sour buyer, that actually paid more than what the item was worth? If they can't ignore, then after a while they would just go offline and get on later when they think the person is offline.

 

5.) It is not necessarily a matter of CS1 being lazy or not doing their job. Sometimes they are telling you that they cannot help you. Also, at least where I work, we do forward questions and cases to our higher ups if we do not know what to do or it is not something that should be up to us to decide. It happens automatically. We put you on hold, ask the question, and give you the answer, unless it is too complicated, in which case our higher up takes over. I cannot imagine that this is NOT standard practice.

 

Regardless of your whole argument, the trading chat has the disclaimer saying that they are not responsible for insuring fairness of trades and such. I know you are saying that it should be in some part. But I fail to see why.

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First of all I already said that accepting the trade was dumb of me in the first place, no need to beat me up over that - I acknowledge my mistake - but that doesn't mean a criminal gets off.

 

Second, as far as the english lesson - the whole conversation must be considered in order to determine what terms mean. I already specified I wanted BOTH. I asked the price - not prices - PRICE (singular). So what was I asking the price for? Well the first thing I said was what? "You still have hikou / scindo SETS. Sets is what I am asking about obviously. It is now about the SETS, not the individual items. I said SETS, and I said BOTH - its obvious I want the total price for both SETS. The Theif understood that, otherwise he would have said "x price for the Hikou, x price for the Scindo". He didn't do that because he knew I wanted both, so he gave me the combined price as I asked (inferred). (Also I don't have a pic for this but that is the total for what he was offering - he KNEW what I was asking him). So the english cannot be confused. And you know it isn't confusing, lets not make this into an english test because we can get bogged down in every post on this website if that's the case.

Yes, it does.  You accepted the trade.  DE put in those prompts as a safe guard because they don't have time, money, or staff to police the hundreds of thousands of trades that happen every day.

Edited by Aggh
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