New Iron Skin, Initial Feedback

[Thor]

Getting right into it...

 

The bad

- Yeah, 800 does feel a tad low, especially as you start to get into higher level content. Five level 40 chargers were able to take down IS in a few seconds. That said, it was able to stand up to Phorid's scream and 3-4 hits before breaking.

- Immunity to nauseous crawlers seems to be missing (Was it present pre-7.11? I don't recall). This means that one can effectively stunlock you for long enough that all sorts of other nasties can show up and ruin your day. This missing immunity may be a bug, and I've let Rebecca know about it already.

 

The good

- I really enjoy the new sense of urgency that the damage cap adds. It changes the skill from "I can tank anything in the world and their mothers for this set duration of time" to "I can still tank, but I still have to be cautious about the situations I get myself into". It does make you think a bit more before popping the skill and wading into the fray, which is a good thing. Now I'm not saying that the damage cap is the only way to add this feeling, but it does add it.

- Immunities are back (with exception, see above)! Yay!

- The damage cap is affected by Focus.

 

In summary, I like the change from the relatively more mindless old IS, where you hit the button and knew that nothing could harm you for the next X seconds, to a system where you're still capable of tanking, but you actually have to consider the situations you're getting into. However there could still stand to be some tweaking: Groups of high level enemies seem to tear through the damage cap with relative ease (Though I was able to solo high level stuff pretty well - again, I just had to be careful that I didn't get in over my head). 

 

As many people have explained quite well in previous threads and posts, scalability of the skill is the major issue. It's important to remember that achieving both scalability and balance for a tanking-type skill like Iron Skin will be tricky, though. As of now I believe the plan is to reevaluate Rhino's other three skills and then looking back at Iron Skin to see how it fits in, and I think that's a sound plan.

[GhostinDuhBox]

Thor, on 23 May 2013 - 6:35 PM, said:

<reasonable evaluation> /snip

First, is armor effecting the IS dmg absorb?

If it is, then perhaps having the other abilities add temporary armor or refresh the amount could help with scaling.

I just feel like adding some sort of synergy between his abilities may be beneficial.

[UberNuby]

Does Focus increase the damage of Rhino's other skills?

[Tyrian3k]

I have to say that I don't like the damage absorb mechanic at all.

The immunities end as soon as the damage absorb is depleted, which happens incredibly fast on later missions.

Not being able to estimate when the effect ends at all isn't really nice either...

 

The change came and is just as bad as I expected it to be... in other words: It is a flat nerf from where it was before.

[Thor]

First, is armor effecting the IS dmg absorb?

If it is, then perhaps having the other abilities add temporary armor or refresh the amount could help with scaling.

I just feel like adding some sort of synergy between his abilities may be beneficial.

 

I'm not sure how/if armor affects it - will probably need to set up a reasonably controlled test environment (e.g. test how long it takes a level X charger to get through IS +/- Steel Fiber). I'll try doing this sometime tomorrow (unless someone beats me to it).

 

Does Focus increase the damage of Rhino's other skills?

 

I'm fairly sure it does, yeah. That said, remember that they're planning on reevaluating his other skills in the long run.

 

I have to say that I don't like the damage absorb mechanic at all.

The immunities end as soon as the damage absorb is depleted, which happens incredibly fast on later missions.

Not being able to estimate when the effect ends at all isn't really nice either...

 

The change came and is just as bad as I expected it to be... in other words: It is a flat nerf from where it was before.

 

While I agree that the balancing for high-level content could stand to be looked at, you immediately lost immunities with pre-7.11 IS, too. That said, it could be interesting if there were some sort of retention of immunities for the regular duration, even after the damage absorption got depleted.

 

In regards to knowing when the effect will end, I think that'll be a matter of experience. After using it for a while you should be more able to determine in which situations you'll be in over your head. And to be honest, I think it's good that some situations will be too extreme for IS. Even a tank needs to have limitations to what he can handle. Maybe right now the limitations are too limiting, but that's just a matter of adjusting numbers.

[K1LLZ0NE]

 

Here is my overview of the new Iron Skin.  For it to be any use you have to spam the crap out of it.  Which is okay if you have the proper mods, except that is is fairly difficult to chain.  I was playing mostly on Xini and found that on waves 10+ it breaks almost instantly.  And when it breaks you have about 2 dozen baddies biting your face off.  And if you just so happen to get stunned or knock backed right as it ended (which is VERY likely) then you are SOL.  If DE is adamant about keeping it this way (with a damage cap) then they need to do a few things.

 

1)  Increase damage cap.  Maybe up to 1000?  IDK

 

2)  Give some indication about how much is left before it breaks.  Preferably an obvious visual effect.

 

3)  Allow for some overlap so you can chain it without too much trouble.  This means that during the last 100 points or so you can cast it again.

 

4)  Aggro needs a larger radius.  It seems that mobs would just run by without giving me much thought.

 

Also, not sure if this is a bug, but there still is a time limit on the ability.  Meaning that if I start it at the end of the wave and don't get hit by anything it will run out before the next wave comes.  I would like this changed.  The one redeeming quality of a damage cap is that if the cap isn't reached, it won't break.  I realize that with the aggro ability this could be seriously abused.  The way I thought of to fix it would be to make it so that after a few seconds of not being attacked the aggro goes away and starts up again when you get hit.  I'm not sure how possible this would be to implement, but I think it would help a great deal.

 

Having said all of this I still do not like this function.  It is still very underwhelming.  I would like to suggest again that Iron Skin be moved to 3rd or 4th ability while keeping the aggro.  Because it is VERY fun!

 

Edited May 24, 2013 by K1LLZ0NE

[Ganpot]

A damage cap was always a terrible idea, because it will never scale properly (and Rhino is the tank class, so his defensive abilities really need to scale well). 

 

In all honesty, Iron Skin is not only useless at higher (60+) levels, but it actually becomes an instant-suicide button when more than a couple of enemies are present.  At high levels, getting the sole attention of (let's just say) 8 normal Grineer troopers means approximately a thousand damage per second.  In other words, the shield will break before the animation is even finished, and your shields and health will follow suit shortly. 

[Thor]

Here is my overview of the new Iron Skin.  For it to be any use you have to spam the crap out of it.  Which is okay if you have the proper mods, except that is is fairly difficult to chain.  I was playing mostly on Xini and found that on waves 10+ it breaks almost instantly.  And when it breaks you have about 2 dozen baddies biting your face off.  And if you just so happen to get stunned or knock backed right as it ended (which is VERY likely) then you are SOL.  If DE is adamant about keeping it this way (with a damage cap) then they need to do a few things.

 

1)  Increase damage cap.  Maybe up to 1000?  IDK

 

2)  Give some indication about how much is left before it breaks.  Preferably an obvious visual effect.

 

3)  Allow for some overlap so you can chain it without too much trouble.  This means that during the last 100 points or so you can cast it again.

 

4)  Aggro needs a larger radius.  It seems that mobs would just run by without giving me much thought.

 

Also, not sure if this is a bug, but there still is a time limit on the ability.  Meaning that if I start it at the end of the wave and don't get hit by anything it will run out before the next wave comes.  I would like this changed.  The one redeeming quality of a damage cap is that if the cap isn't reached, it won't break.  I realize that with the aggro ability this could be seriously abused.  The way I thought of to fix it would be to make it so that after a few seconds of not being attacked the aggro goes away and starts up again when you get hit.  I'm not sure how possible this would be to implement, but I think it would help a great deal.

 

Having said all of this I still do not like this function.  It is still very underwhelming.  I would like to suggest again that Iron Skin be moved to 3rd or 4th ability while keeping the aggro.  Because it is VERY fun!

 

1. Purely out of curiosity, were you using Focus? I don't mean to say that that's now a mandatory mod for IS - It should be at least reasonably effective either way.

 

2. Again I personally think this is something that'll come with experience using the skill. However I can see how this might set the bar pretty high for new Rhino users, and would not object in the slightest so some sort of visual indication.

 

3. Can't really come up with a good argument for or against this at the moment; won't comment.

 

4. Agreed on this one. I also run a Shade so it's a bit difficult to tell how effective the aggro actually is.

 

Not sure if the duration thing is just a carryover from the old skill, but I agree on your point there completely.

[Gearb0x]

My initial feedback:  The aggro mechanic is wonderful and makes the skill even better than pre-nerf.  800 damage is about half my shields/armor with a rank 9/8 Red/Vitality.  If I'm taking that much damage in 13 seconds I should probably Stomp and kill things.  Rhino is back.

 

Caveat: I have yet to play a Xini match, or really set in on Pluto, but against level 40+ Corpus on the one Def mission I played today, the new IS RULED!

[Seanjuju]

New IS was useless aside from knockback and stagger immunity. Extremely unreliable. This is my initial feeling, if my opinion changes, I'll let you know. If it doesn't, I'll let you know why.

[Thor]

New IS was useless aside from knockback and stagger immunity. Extremely unreliable. This is my initial feeling, if my opinion changes, I'll let you know. If it doesn't, I'll let you know why.

 

Sorry, but I'm unclear on how it's 'unreliable'. Is it buggy or inconsistent for you?

 

Is the current iteration of Iron Skin weaker than it used to be? Yeah, it is.

Could it still be improved upon? Yeah, definitely. I don't think it's perfect and judging from their desire for feedback neither does DE.

But is it useless? No, absolutely not. I realize that many of you are upset about the change, and that's understandable. But please try to step back and be at least a little objective before you go and blast the new version as totally worthless.

[Gearb0x]

Hold on, a Maxed out Rhino has 1110 Shields and 740 HP.  With the Thrakk Helmet, that's 765 HP.  HP lasts longer due to Armor, so with 60% DR on HP the effective HP of a Rhino with a Thrakk helm is 765/0.40 = 1912.5.  Total Effective Life of a godlike Rhino is 3022.5 Damage.  800 health is about 26.5% of that TEL.

 

50 Energy gets you over 25% bonus health to your face.  Throw on maxed Streamline and Focus and (if Focus affects this 800 damage soak) that's 38.5 energy for a 34.4& increase.

 

That's insanely good!  You guys are claiming that bumping your Godlike Rhino's life by over a third isn't good enough?  What are you doing where you're taking 1000 damage in 13 seconds?  If nothing else, your massive shields should recharge over the course of the IS.

 

It's not as good as it was.  It will never be as good as it was.  I prefer this version because it's no longer a brainless spam button for immortality.  I get a TAUNT now!  I get a massive pile of bonus HP between my shields and my enemies.  I get immunity to knockdown and stun and it's amazing.

 

@Thor: Can you confirm/deny that Focus affects how much HP the IS absorbs? *edit* Rereading the OP's OP: Yes.  Focus helps.

Edited May 24, 2013 by Gearb0x

[VanillaRegal]

The New IS seems to not be working too well. At least for me. I tried popping it once and got killed before the animation could finish. Abandoned the mission and tried again elsewhere and ended up not having IS up at all. People loved shooting me more than my allies, though. The whole Aggro mechanic should be optinal because sometimes, having a 'Shoot me right now' button is not the best idea when you're trying to just save yourself from getting stunlocked or trying to revive a friend and your Extra Shields (This is no longer Iron Skin) runs out.

[Phoenix86]

A round 1000 absorb would have been better on max lvl (also scales better with Focus) -.-

 

Sarcasm mode: ON.

 

Well, we will rule Venus!! that's great isnt it?

 

Sarcasm mode: OFF.

 

I'll try it out asap, 1 thing is sure: i wont go past lvl wave 20 in defenses with him anymore, i'll just enjoy the easy smashing before and exit

(since rewards doesnt scale no point going harder for nothing anyway)

[SoloCreep]

I never complain, I love the game the way it is. I never suggest changes for anything because I like what the devs put out. It makes me sick reading post after post of kids crying about nerfs or begging to add this or that.. I have to say though, I hate the new Iron Skin. I shouldn't be having my iron skin, 930 Shield and level10 Amor ripped to shreds in 5 seconds or less. Rhino might do ok on lower levels, but those of us who have everything unlocked and play mostly high levels "using Rhino" are getting the S#&amp;&#036;ty end of the stick. It does nothing for added protection. I can tell you what it does do, It gives me a false sense of security. I am not exaggerating when I say when I activate iron skin its like its not even on. I might as well not even use it because it does nothing except waste energy. Every frame has that one awesome ability they are known for, Rhino is know for his Iron Skin and now that's gone. I guess you need to rename it and rewrite the description of what this ability does. It really has me scratching my head thinking "is this some sort of joke" or "The last rhino change was fine, why ruin him". I am putting Rhino on the shelf until his paper skin gets turned back into iron. If that never happens then I'll sell him. Its a shame really going from a top frame to the bottom of the list.

[Rafarix]

- Immunity to nauseous crawlers seems to be missing (Was it present pre-7.11? I don't recall). This means that one can effectively stunlock you for long enough that all sorts of other nasties can show up and ruin your day. This missing immunity may be a bug, and I've let Rebecca know about it already.

Actually it was never there to begin with I pointed it out awhile back before Iron Skin was changed. The post should be in This old thread 6th Post down. So yes Nauseous crawlers has always been able to stun Rhino while he was in Iron Skin. 

Edited May 24, 2013 by Rafarix

[Phoenix86]

Ok, since they want us to play and adapt to these new Iron_fake Skin i demand to rise dmg absorbed at max lvl from 800 to 1000 if not more!

[Seanjuju]

Sorry, but I'm unclear on how it's 'unreliable'. Is it buggy or inconsistent for you?

Is the current iteration of Iron Skin weaker than it used to be? Yeah, it is.

Could it still be improved upon? Yeah, definitely. I don't think it's perfect and judging from their desire for feedback neither does DE.

But is it useless? No, absolutely not. I realize that many of you are upset about the change, and that's understandable. But please try to step back and be at least a little objective before you go and blast the new version as totally worthless.

My earlier comment is sort of blunt when I read it now but my emotions weren't getting the best of me, that was my current assessment. If I can't rely on it then its not of much use. It doesn't function as a reliable emergency shield, in situations in which I'd need an emergency shield, it's often a liability. Not always. It does not allow you to approach any combat situation that you couldn't otherwise approach. Though your able to approach situations a little bit more directly than you otherwise would be comfortable doing, it can not push you farther than you would otherwise be able to go. It is not for use in crowds that you couldn't approach without it. It provides a negligible amount of peace of mind in completing tasks you could complete without it. This assessment if for intermediate missions and foes. IS is of substantial use to those that may struggle with lower foes or missions.

(Edit)I realize that this form of IS is temporary and I'm not agitated. I'm not going to insist on a better temporary IS. Maybe DE will change something or maybe they'll work on the full rebalance. I'll provide feedback since that's the purpose of this thread. Feel free to ask for elaboration or comment on my reasoning.

Edited May 24, 2013 by Seanjuju

[KALUHS]

i like the new iron skin, 800 dmg shield may need to be bumped up a notch, breaks too soon at the higher lvls

 

questions

1. does focus effect the 800 dmg shield?

2. does stretch effect aggro range?

[Gearb0x]

I still don't understand all this *@##&#036;ing.

 

Is it because we are no longer gods?  We have fallen into the realms of demi-gods and are pissed about it?

 

I just finished farming Kiste 3 or 4 times, with a few level 40 Grineer and Corpus alerts thrown in.

 

I never went down once.  My health got hit a few times and I was glad to have my Rank 8 vitality (Pro tip: Vitality before Steel Fiber, always) but when IS went down I always had another one.

 

It's a TWENTY FIVE percent effective life bonus!   On the cheap!  That negates CC and generates aggro.  Are you guys playing a different game than I am?  IS went from spammable Godmode to unusable garbage that dragged the Rhino into unplayable territory to where it is now: A spammable Tankmode button.

 

Why does it need to be 1000 damage?  WHY?  Nice round numbers?  You think it sounds better?  25% health bonus means that Rhino's live where everyone else (even Frosts) die a grisly death.

 

Anecdotes are nice evidence for problems if they have context.  What level mobs of what factions are you guys fighting?  Are you soloing or 4 manning?  What rank is your IS?  What mods do you have equipped?  Who is your daddy, and what does he do? (Ok, that last one is from Kindergarten Cop and not helpful)

 

Looking forward to helpful feedback rather than random angry typing on this thread.

[Phoenix86]

I realize that this form of IS is temporary and I'm not agitated.

 

Last famous words.

[Abenoki]

I still don't understand all this *@##$ing.

 

Is it because we are no longer gods?  We have fallen into the realms of demi-gods and are &!$$ed about it?

its the scalability of the ability in question.

Frosts abilities scale perfectly, from mercury to pluto, frome wave 1-100. He IMO is a VERY well balanced frame and thats what rhino needs to be, his iron skin and everything needs to scale from start to finish and have the same effectiveness. As of now he starts off great, but looses effectiveness the higher you go, be it planet or wave in defense.

[Phoenix86]

its the scalability of the ability in question.

Frosts abilities scale perfectly, from mercury to pluto, frome wave 1-100. He IMO is a VERY well balanced frame and thats what rhino needs to be, his iron skin and everything needs to scale from start to finish and have the same effectiveness. As of now he starts off great, but looses effectiveness the higher you go, be it planet or wave in defense.

 

Some people are having hard times understanding this, *wish for virtual nails*

[Seox]

I have maxed IS and have had absolutely horrible experience with it post-patch.

What was done well? As the OP states, I'm finding that the skill is really finally starting to feel balanced - there's a real sense of urgency behind the skill and I truly feel that I have to balance the boldness that the skill enables with some reasonable apprehension so that I don't overdo it.

 

The problem? Two-three casts in 10 seconds. Against level 30 enemies. What. The math doesn't even make sense. I have no idea how; All I know is that I pop maxed IS against five enemies that are 25-35 and within 2-3 seconds I'm taking damage again. Either there's a mad bug or 800 damage is nowhere near what it sounds like, and I'm not sure I even feel comfortable blaming either one. I recognize that this is anecdote and just me, and I really wish I knew what was going on :( I prefer the 80% to this so far; I just can't make it work.

Edited May 24, 2013 by Seox

[Phoenix86]

You guys dont get it, the new use of Iron Skin is not face tanking enemies, it is like the cover u are trying to slowly reach to recharge shields appears 2-3 seconds ahead. that's what it does, nothing more nothing less.