New Iron Skin, Initial Feedback

[SabreUr]

Maybe solution to this Iron skin drama would be option to increase numbers of ranks we can level it to... IDK 6-7?

[Phoenix86]

Maybe solution to this Iron skin drama would be option to increase numbers of ranks we can level it to... IDK 6-7?

 

they could have just increased the cap before implementing it, basically 99% of the community said 800 wasnt enough at all, they clearly ignored us.

 

Putting a 1000, 1500... i dont know... and higher number could have partially calmed down ppl and overall demonstrated they were listening something...

[KALUHS]

Current Problem with new Iron Skin

-No Indication of when it will break

-When iron skin is broken by a Crowd control attack (such as knock down or disrupt) u get the CC

-the iron skin dmg absorption needs to scale better in end game

 

I simply suggest

-An indication of when iron skin will break, show us its hp

-make it so that CC attacks do not break iron skin and CC you (a knock down attack should not break iron skin and knock you down)

-make iron skin dmg absorption scale

 

the aggro doesnt seem all that powerful either, both mobile defense and regular defense i notice alot of mobs ignore me.

[Phoenix86]

They could let dmg absorb last till it lasts... and immunity CC effect last till the skill duration (whole 15 sec)

[Fleischkloppa]

As it is now, I thing Ironskin was more useful pre-patch, except for the cc-immunity, of course.80% damage reduction is far better than that puny little damage we can avoid now.Even on low level enemies, it only protects for a few seconds, making it absolutely useless in comparison for fighting normal mobs.Why would I use ironskin to avoid damage for a few secs if I could aswell do the rhino charge 2 times and clear out the area?

 

The max absorbed damage should either go up to about 1600(Double of what we have now)or they should revert it to 80% damage reduction, because that was actually useful.

[RayTheSun]

But is it useless? No, absolutely not. I realize that many of you are upset about the change, and that's understandable. But please try to step back and be at least a little objective before you go and blast the new version as totally worthless.

I'unno, once you get to the point where it's down in less than five seconds, seems kinda totally worthless to me.

 

I mean, I guess for the first four planets it's a passable skill, but the amount of damage it can absorb is simply far too low, especially when it's expected to compete with Link and Snow Globe.

[Meltina]

They should have left part of the damage reduction on Iron skin. If it had a 50% reduction and a 800 damage shield then they could put the cc imunity on the damage reduction part so you dont get CCed when your shield goes down. That and a reduction percentage scales far better than a flat shield buff.

[Ganpot]

You guys dont get it, the new use of Iron Skin is not face tanking enemies, it is like the cover u are trying to slowly reach to recharge shields appears 2-3 seconds ahead. that's what it does, nothing more nothing less.

In that case the ability works perfectly, and the new design direction of Rhino is what's broken.  He's a tank; it's his job to face-tank.  If his only contribution to teamwork is that he can survive for a few seconds under moderate fire while slowly plodding to cover, then he is still more of a liability than an asset.  I don't want to sound hostile, but can you (or anyone else) give me a single reason to put a Rhino in your group as opposed to any other class? 

 

 

Putting a 1000, 1500... i dont know... and higher number could have partially calmed down ppl and overall demonstrated they were listening something...

 

It didn't matter what number the devs chose.  The system behind that number is the problem, not the number itself.  Upping the damage to 1000 or 1500 won't fix anything. 

Edited May 24, 2013 by Ganpot

[Phoenix86]

Ya i know, i totally agree with ya on both points, but it looks like they wont listen us, not now... therefore i suggested an higher number, because a different mechanic didnt take into consideration at all

[Seanjuju]

Ya i know, i totally agree with ya on both points, but it looks like they wont listen us, not now... therefore i suggested an higher number, because a different mechanic didnt take into consideration at all

Its possible that they don't intend to rework a temporary fix when they're already balancing the entire frame. What's important is to point out all the faults in the temporary IS so they know what's needed. Mechanic suggestions have been taken into consideration and we have yet to see their final fix. It was clever of Thor to get out in front of this by starting the topic but I think everyone's exhausted from pouring ideas/rage into the hot topic thread.

[se05239]

My only cons with this new Iron Skin is that its unreliable. With Murphy and his Law as my witness, I know that the Iron Skin will break when a Disruptor attacks me, hence draining all my energy and shields. And that 800 is kinda low for mid-high level missions.. 

Other than that, I have no negative about it.

Edited May 24, 2013 by se05239

[Zhonatta]

I fail to see why a straight Immunity duration, No Ward, is an issue. I have switched to the Vaunban at this point because I can drop a 75 power Rhino stomp that keeps me AND my team mates from taking next to any damage while allowing us to destroy the enemy. Giving one class immunity is hardly OP. Its duration simply needed to adjusted for balance instead of implementing this warding mechanic....

Edited May 24, 2013 by Zhonatta

[RenegadeSVK]

The 800 damage that can be absorbed is no way enough.

Possible buffs that I can think off:

 

1. It would be great if new IS had armor equal to Rhino's basic value (150 armor) with possibility to increase it with SteelFiber aaaand to increase basic damage cap from 800 to higher values with Focus

 

or

 

2. change it back to 80% damage reduction with the possibility to increase it with Focus

  You know: 80*1,3= you know *cough* you know, do the math... :P

 

or

 

3. change it back :P

 

I'm voting for either 2 or 3 (but 1 is good buff too). Still doesn't solve problems with high level enemies. They eat through my 870 shields in less than second.

[Bubsters]

Who is your daddy, and what does he do?

Nothing productive to say

fk off troll.

 

I believe we shud boost the cap to 1k and have focus affect it. barely got to 20 on pluto with a decent pug when we shudve gone to 30.

[Wooben]

I think people who complained about the Rhino nerf are just sour that they then had to put actual effort into their playstyle.

The damage cap is a far better idea than invulnerability. At max rank, RS lasts for 15 seconds. Who the hell thinks that 15 seconds of  total invulnerability, refresh-able with just two energy orbs (god knows which there are tons of during big fights) is conducive to fun and skill based combat?

[Vorpalstryke]

Sounds like I'll be working on polarizing my Saryn first then. Mr. Rhino can sit it out for a while until he becomes useful again :(

[Phoenix86]

I think people who complained about the Rhino nerf are just sour that they then had to put actual effort into their playstyle.

The damage cap is a far better idea than invulnerability. At max rank, RS lasts for 15 seconds. Who the hell thinks that 15 seconds of  total invulnerability, refresh-able with just two energy orbs (god knows which there are tons of during big fights) is conducive to fun and skill based combat?

 

Why cant u just *sssshhh* ? please.

Edited May 24, 2013 by Phoenix86

[Tyrian3k]

The question is: How long is the IS with damage absorbtion supposed to last? 5 s? 10s? Then why not use that time instead of making it depending on how much damage you take so it doesn't have problems with scaling with higher levels... but wait! Then we would be at the old pre-Vauban IS again.

 

IS right now is nothing else but a version of the original IS that has scaling problems... too strong on low levels and too weak on high levels.

 

That's why I'd like DE to go back to making it a flat damage reduction that lasts for a certain amount of time and make Rhino invulnerable (or resistant) to poison damage, disruption and knockdown/stagger.

 

If damage reduction is 70% at base, then it could be upgraded to 91% with focus, allowing you to take more than ten times the damage you can take without IS before dying.

If you have 870 shields the enemies need to deal a total of 9667 damage to break it while IS is active.

Even if a player spams IS like this his shields/health will still get damage if he's constantly under attack.

 

This system doesn't have those pesky scaling problems that will never disappear from the current system, no matter how much damage IS absorbs.

[Thor]

Common responses and my responses thereunto:

 

1. Iron Skin's going down too fast OR I can't tank anymore! - May I ask where you were playing and what you were fighting that it was going down "in seconds"? I was soloing up to level 30-40 content with relative ease. Again, the new Iron Skin adds a sense of urgency: You have to remember that a. it's possible to get in over your head, and b. once you use it, you've got to get to killing. The only situations where I felt like I had to spam it were high level boss fights (I believe I used it 3 or 4 times for Phorid) or when I decided to take on way too many enemies at once. Otherwise it was just a question of getting in there quickly and bashing some skulls. Melee Rhino is completely viable.

 

2. It's not scalable OR 800 is way too low! - I do agree, to an extent - the exact number could use some tweaking to make it more viable for high-level content. That said, I'm not sure that I agree with the argument that it needs to be equally effective regardless of whether you're facing level 1s or level 100s. Versus level 1s, yeah, a maxed-out IS should feel like a win-button. But versus level 100s? That's a situation where it should be stupid hard. I'm not saying Rhino should be gimped in the endgame - indeed I have my doubts that fighting level 100 stuff is supposed to be the endgame at all, but again I do think limitations are reasonable. I won't address other warframes/skills at this point - how DE wants to balance those is currently up in the air.

[WARLOCKE]

Rhino is useless now ias a tank in any meaningfull content that you need him to tank in.

DE had it right last update with the absorb %. All they needed to do was to add immunity to toxic and draining and knockback.

Instead we get this............

[Phoenix86]

Common responses and my responses thereunto:

 

-snip-

 

About point 1: So basically the response is: "No you are wrong, how cant you use it properly? It looks fine to us!"

(this is not aimed at you Thor) but seriously... try to stay 10 consecutive seconds between 3 ancients + 3 chargers lvl 45+ and let us know if it's ok...)

And 45 is like wave 10-15 Xini, nothing end game at all.

 

About point 2: that's exactly what Link and Snow Globe do, they dont care if you are getting shooted by a lvl 1 or a lvl 100 enemy, they'll stop it regardless... IS was the same, now it is not, why are they still the same?

[SerosTau]

Not much to say to this that hasn't been said already, but I want to echo the OP's points because I think he made some good ones.

 

1)  It's no longer god mode, but it DOES function as an "AH HELL!" button.

 

2)  It brings Rhino's "C'mon, HIT ME!" swagger back.  And then some with the new taunt mechanic.  :)

 

3)  Scalability where multiple Grineer / Corpus enemies of high level (re: 40+) is a major concern for me, and I'm pretty sure just about all players.  IMO 2000 is probably about right in those situations (think rank 70 goons), BUT would be grossly OP at lower levels, so I'm willing to call it tricky and leave it at that.  It's not that scalability around Infested isn't a concern, but there's more mitigating factors involved there. 

 

4)  Would like to see some sort of visual indicator beyond "Huh, I seem to be being punched in the face again."

 

So, generally speaking, an improvement even if the EFL has been reduced due to the nature of scaling damage reductions vs flat damage immunity w/caps, BUT the ability feels better.  I *expect* that mostly the discussion will revolve around scalabiltiy from here on out, possibly with some %damage reduction, but now that the mechanics are working in a more satisfactory manner, those discussions should be a lot more pleasant.  :)

[Abenoki]

2. It's not scalable OR 800 is way too low! - I do agree, to an extent - the exact number could use some tweaking to make it more viable for high-level content. That said, I'm not sure that I agree with the argument that it needs to be equally effective regardless of whether you're facing level 1s or level 100s. Versus level 1s, yeah, a maxed-out IS should feel like a win-button. But versus level 100s? That's a situation where it should be stupid hard. I'm not saying Rhino should be gimped in the endgame - indeed I have my doubts that fighting level 100 stuff is supposed to be the endgame at all, but again I do think limitations are reasonable. I won't address other warframes/skills at this point - how DE wants to balance those is currently up in the air.

Frosts abilities scale well even when you have level 100+ mobs, They have a higher health pool so dmg is reduced as it should be, but when i freeze a mob that lvl, still lasts the same duration, when i throw up snow globe it still lasts the same duration. Frost doesnt become a s&*^^#er tank as levels go on, but he does do less dmg and still has a chance to die like everyone else. Like i said before, frost scales perfectly, Rhino doesnt, and thats the problem. I was fine with the % dmg reduction personally, it was lack of immunities that was the issue and that i should have been able to scale it up just a bit to at least match embers overheat in regards to dmg mitigation. Setting that flat # was a bad idea IMO unless they plan to allow us to influence that with mods like Steel Fiber or Focus. It doesnt matter if thats what the endgame is supposed to be, rhino is a tank like frost, frost is like how every tank should be, scale-able. I ALWAYS play tank in every online game i play, and rhino currently does not deserve the title, I love my rhino, he is my main and I've stuck by him even through the nerf when people tossed him aside, but I'm also not gonna say his ability is where it should be because compared to frost, or any other tank ever he is not.

IMO, add back % as that was fine, allow uping it to 90%, keep immunities, and we're good :]

IS is a tricky ability, they gave him an ability meant for face tanking. This is hard to make scale i understand, and thats why we're having this issue. 95% mitigation or even 90% would make him a God in lower levels just like now, but it would also mean that at higher levels it will scale with dmg which is good. Dont hate on DE people, help them figure out how to make rhino so everyone is happy and he works well in all situations :D

Edited May 24, 2013 by Ecotox

[WARLOCKE]

Max Iron skin gets taken down by three level 33 MOA's in 3-4 seconds. 

This change is just poorly concieved and implemented. The solution needs to scale with the game (percentile). DE had it almost right last update.

80% damage absorb with it affecting shields and all they needed was to fix the immunities.

 

Im not a rhino "MAIN". I try to use all my frames equally. Rhino is currently in time out.

Edited May 24, 2013 by WARLOCKE

[WARLOCKE]

Also, why is invuln ok for Trinity to have but not Rhino? The support frame is more tanky than the tank frame.....still.