New Iron Skin, Initial Feedback

[Abenoki]

Max Iron skin gets taken down by three level 33 MOA's in 3-4 seconds. 

This change is just poorly concieved and implemented. The solution needs to scale with the game (percentile). DE had it almost right last update.

80% damage absorb with it affecting shields and all they needed was to fix the immunities.

 

Im not a rhino "MAIN". I try to use all my frames equally. Rhino is currently in time out.

I agree except he should be able to = the mitigation of ember :] 90% max with focus and im good :] ember with that does really well even vs higher lvl mobs (of course no immunities :<), she doesnt have all the tank stats but the % was a step in the right direction, they just needed to make the % a bit higher and keep the immunities

Edited May 24, 2013 by Ecotox

[Keyza]

I think the problem right now is that no matter what the cap is, be it 800, 1000 or 1200. As long as it works with a simple arithmetic mechanic, it will scale horribly.

Which is why most will agree with the 80% damage mitigation is preferable to the damage cap, not taking into account the CC immunities of course.

[Gearb0x]

fk off troll.

 

I believe we shud boost the cap to 1k and have focus affect it. barely got to 20 on pluto with a decent pug when we shudve gone to 30.

 

You claim that I'm trolling these boards, resort to profanity, then actually follow my advice and provide the exact anecdotal evidence I was hoping to prompt.  You do the EXACT thing you claim, erroneously, contributed nothing to the conversation.  Not sure you see the hypocrisy there.  Thought you should have it pointed out to you.

 

Getting past wave 20 on Pluto should be hard, in my opinion.  It used to be easy, and it looks like the devs are working on re-balancing things so that it's hard now.  I have stood between 3 level 45 anciencts and crawlers.  Thanks to my guns, they were dead in 2 Iron Skins.  Yes, it broke in the middle of fighting them.  No, I don't think that's a problem with the power.

[SFkenny]

Is there a visual representation of how much damage you're taking so you can use IS and keep track of how far from the cap you are? I'm not a Rhino user, but as a prospective user I'm curious.

[Ghogiel]

A Lvl 60 odd toxic ancient  will chomp Iron skin just on it's own if you're in melee range. If you have a couple chargers going at you as well, you'll have to kill it in a couple seconds or you'll be gassed.

 

It's still good for tanking low levels levels. It's a bit of a liability at higher levels since it just cuts out with no warning.

[Abenoki]

I came up with a version of IRon Skin that i think makes a good compromise between not invul and still making rhino a balls out tank.

post thoughts here in my thread if you want :]

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/50291-de-constructive-feedback-on-and-where-i-think-iron-skin-should-bego/?p=519197

[Leyden]

i hate it now, from the bottom of my heart.

 

i cant even picture how i could give a positive feedback , back then it was great, now you can sometimes waste 50 energy as an ennemy broke it up 0.5 second after you lauch it.

 

Tenno the only race with a technology who regress

[S.W.O.R.D.]

Rhino is a piece of trash, still. Iron Skin is useless. 800 dmg absorbed? Shields are stronger. One 35 lvl Toxic Ancient nullifies Iron Skin in 6-7 seconds. JUST ONE. Four 35 lvl Chargers take it off in 3-4 seconds. It's even worse then 80% dmg reduction on 15 seconds. And now it has agro, on hight level defense missions it's a "suicide button".

 

Restore FULL 15 seconds invulnerability. For PVE atleast. Let it be damage absorb for PVP, but 800 hp for pvp is too low, it'll last for 2-3 seconds, maybe even less.

[WARLOCKE]

Restoring to old ironskin is bad. They simply need to go back instead of forward with a fix, Still wondering why Trin got to keep its Invuln.

[NalkorRN]

I would love it if Rhino had the pre-nerf Iron Skin, because I swear Lech Kril is using it in the new boss fight, I used Ash's Shuriken at level 3 with maxed out Focus (2 shurikens, 625 a piece, can solo Golem in a few uses with that power) and saw no damage numbers as a host, I even offloaded most of the magazine in my tricked out Gorgon and nothing. Only after he stopped looking chrome could he be harmed at all, so yeah, Iron Skin for players got nerfed hard, but then the nastiest melee boss ever gets the pre-nerf version on top of his hammer, fire, and ice tricks.

[KONAir]

800 is too low to even bother using against crowds.

[Seanjuju]

Common responses and my responses thereunto:

 

1. Iron Skin's going down too fast OR I can't tank anymore! - May I ask where you were playing and what you were fighting that it was going down "in seconds"? I was soloing up to level 30-40 content with relative ease. Again, the new Iron Skin adds a sense of urgency: You have to remember that a. it's possible to get in over your head, and b. once you use it, you've got to get to killing. The only situations where I felt like I had to spam it were high level boss fights (I believe I used it 3 or 4 times for Phorid) or when I decided to take on way too many enemies at once. Otherwise it was just a question of getting in there quickly and bashing some skulls. Melee Rhino is completely viable.

 

2. It's not scalable OR 800 is way too low! - I do agree, to an extent - the exact number could use some tweaking to make it more viable for high-level content. That said, I'm not sure that I agree with the argument that it needs to be equally effective regardless of whether you're facing level 1s or level 100s. Versus level 1s, yeah, a maxed-out IS should feel like a win-button. But versus level 100s? That's a situation where it should be stupid hard. I'm not saying Rhino should be gimped in the endgame - indeed I have my doubts that fighting level 100 stuff is supposed to be the endgame at all, but again I do think limitations are reasonable. I won't address other warframes/skills at this point - how DE wants to balance those is currently up in the air.

1. In my case, there's no reason to use IS in 30-40. I have minimal trouble soloing that far without it. As I said before, the new IS can't push me farther than I could otherwise go. In boss fights it has some use, I'll admit. It doesn't allow me to take on larger groups that I normally could though. Its useful against large groups of lower level ancients if they get too close.

 

2. Not only does IS have very few applicable uses in higher content, it becomes a liability that will ultimately result in death.      

[Unknown924]

Thor, have you tested Iron Skin against Railgun Moas?  I had a defense mission where I am quite sure they were staggering me through Iron Skin with their shots.  The Iron Skin graphic was up and I was taking no damage while I was being staggered so I don't think it was a lag/display issue.  I wonder if that is intentional since they can shoot through Frost's globe also.

[WARLOCKE]

Well, unfortunatly I think this broken skill is what Rhino players are stuck with untill people get tired of the version 8 bling and start to complain again. Its unfortunate but very vocal crying is how things get done in this game. Ive gone back to playing my Rhino for a change of pace and IIhave taken Iron Skin out of my mod slots. Kinda like how i did to the old radial blast. How do the french say it?..........

[KikasG]

Nerfed rhino main ability, sad day for rhino players :(

[lZerul]

As I stated before, I think that the Rhino's Armor should apply to the Iron Skin Barrier.

It would make that additional HP bar last a great deal longer, and give incentive to actually use the Steel Fiber Mod.

[Thor]

Thor, have you tested Iron Skin against Railgun Moas?  I had a defense mission where I am quite sure they were staggering me through Iron Skin with their shots.  The Iron Skin graphic was up and I was taking no damage while I was being staggered so I don't think it was a lag/display issue.  I wonder if that is intentional since they can shoot through Frost's globe also.

 

Hm, I haven't. Will test this out and/or report to DE. Thanks!

[Emotitron]

The compromise works for now, though like many abilities how it scales is eventually going to require revisiting. Comes down to what the future plans of the game are. Ever increasingly higher level mobs in future releases, or is the game going for a hardcap and then the future is just adding more and more options as side-grades?

[InFlames]

A damage cap was always a terrible idea, because it will never scale properly (and Rhino is the tank class, so his defensive abilities really need to scale well). 

 

In all honesty, Iron Skin is not only useless at higher (60+) levels, but it actually becomes an instant-suicide button when more than a couple of enemies are present.  At high levels, getting the sole attention of (let's just say) 8 normal Grineer troopers means approximately a thousand damage per second.  In other words, the shield will break before the animation is even finished, and your shields and health will follow suit shortly. 

 

It was so much better before they even pulled a finger on it...

Another Frame ruined.

Starting to balance the under-powered ones is not a option for DE's i think.

Edited May 25, 2013 by Mr.Pava

[InFlames]

Nerfed rhino main ability, sad day for rhino players :(

 nuff said

[Zonzai]

Hold on, a Maxed out Rhino has 1110 Shields and 740 HP.  With the Thrakk Helmet, that's 765 HP.  HP lasts longer due to Armor, so with 60% DR on HP the effective HP of a Rhino with a Thrakk helm is 765/0.40 = 1912.5.  Total Effective Life of a godlike Rhino is 3022.5 Damage.  800 health is about 26.5% of that TEL.

 

50 Energy gets you over 25% bonus health to your face.  Throw on maxed Streamline and Focus and (if Focus affects this 800 damage soak) that's 38.5 energy for a 34.4& increase.

 

That's insanely good!  You guys are claiming that bumping your Godlike Rhino's life by over a third isn't good enough?  What are you doing where you're taking 1000 damage in 13 seconds?  If nothing else, your massive shields should recharge over the course of the IS.

 

It's not as good as it was.  It will never be as good as it was.  I prefer this version because it's no longer a brainless spam button for immortality.  I get a TAUNT now!  I get a massive pile of bonus HP between my shields and my enemies.  I get immunity to knockdown and stun and it's amazing.

 

@Thor: Can you confirm/deny that Focus affects how much HP the IS absorbs? *edit* Rereading the OP's OP: Yes.  Focus helps.

 

You're not a Rhino player are you.  Rhino doesn't have any good AoE damage.  He can't clear a room with a button.  He can't run away from mobs.  He has to stand there and shoot them.  A 30% boost and aggroing everything nearby is not enough.  That's a couple of seconds of survivability in the late game, in exchange for pissing every mob around you off.  It's a suicide button.

[TheHeraldXII]

Personally I think the old 80% damage reduction at max rank with the CC/disruption/maybe poison immunity would have made it work perfectly fine.

 

Having just completed a run of both Eris and Pluto during the IS changes, this is how I feel it's affected the Rhino.

As it is now, I think that the Rhino is technically balanced, as I can still do just as well as I always did, but having said that it feels like IS is redundant when you consider it's use.

What it does is a)give you a chance to escape with the invuln and b)disables enemies with the taunt, but with some drawbacks.

Drawback 1: You take damage during the cast time

Drawback 2: If you want to use it defensively you end up taking more damage.

In comparison, Rhino Charge gives you a few seconds on invulnerability during the cast time, does damage to nearby enemies, disabling those who survive and moves you out of combat for half the energy.

As for disabling groups of enemies, Radial blast does that much better, albeit at the cost of extra energy and stops them from damaging you to boot, making it a good defensive ability. It knocks down enemies, which keeps you and your team safe, it does damage, which is always nice and has a faster casting animation which means you don't open yourself up to attack as much.

 

The benefits of the %DR system are that 1) it needs to be cast thoughtfully, because using it mid fight after you mess up is a waste, using it before you enter the fray is a great way to tank though. 2) It can't be chained indefinitely to make you unkillable because you still take damage, your shields don't regenerate and there's 2 seconds where you take full damage between each cast. 3) Possibly the most important benefit, you still feel like a tenno wrecking ball, letting you charge in and rock out for a short time.

 

This is what I've taken away from the chaos of these Rhino changes.

[Keyza]

Drawback 2: If you want to use it defensively you end up taking more damage.

 

I think they really should keep the aggro mechanic and Iron Skin separate. Hell, even make it a skill of it's own and combine Radial Blast and Rhino Stomp.

[Hallmonitor]

I see nothing wrong with the new Iron Skin update.

[Phoenix86]

I see nothing wrong with the new Iron Skin update.

 

Hello 1 post troll.