Archwizard Posted July 26, 2015 Share Posted July 26, 2015 (edited) Most frames have two good skills at most. If you consider him to have 3 good skills then he is ahead of the curve, and you have nothing to complain about. Even my favorite frame, Trinity, has a terrible skill. And you think that's okay? No, sorry, if most frames jumped off a cliff onto sharp rocks below you'd still hold your Trinity back. In a game where whole RPG spell lists are functionally compressed into 4 abilities, no frame has an excuse not to have 4 good ones. At any rate, we're not saying Nekros even has 3 good skills to his name, just that Desecrate - by definition - isn't a "skill". Edited July 26, 2015 by Archwizard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PsychoticMarik Posted July 26, 2015 Share Posted July 26, 2015 Yes you could. More easily than Desecrate too. Naruto isn't very good IMO, but it is undeniably popular. There are ninja skills that ressurect the dead to fight for you in that series. Ash is the most ninja like frame in the game, so people would not even question it. You still arent addressing any of my detailed points at all. You literally just straight up told me that you could copy and paste shadows of the dead with literally no changes at all to ash(and it would still fit ash's theme just as well)easier than you could copy and paste desecrate onto another frame. I dont even... As I said in another topic I'm done trying to convince you. You just wont hear any of it. I'll leave it to the readers of these posts to determine who's right and who's wrong. Have a good one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)DesecratedFlame Posted July 26, 2015 Share Posted July 26, 2015 Except I did. You continue to ignore what I said about how it pushes choosing rewards instead of gameplay instead of getting both, how it brings out the worst in Skinner's Box game design in Warframe, how it shows that the global drop rate could be increased without collapsing DE's business model. You ignored what others said (or were quoted in saying); how it causes players to expect Nekros to just drop loot for them and not do anything else, how it doesn't help Nekros other skills and actually hurts them if it's built for. You continue address the theme thing to me even though I've already told you it has nothing to do with my point, and then you say something like "you haven't made a case to support that stance" when I clearly have which, again, can only be explained by willful ignorance. You stated all those things before, yet you have not supported them. And you think that's okay? No, sorry, if most frames jumped off a cliff onto sharp rocks below you'd still hold your Trinity back. In a game where whole RPG spell lists are functionally compressed into 4 abilities, no frame has an excuse not to have 4 good ones. At any rate, we're not saying Nekros even has 3 good skills to his name, just that Desecrate - by definition - isn't a "skill". Please show me that definition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)DesecratedFlame Posted July 26, 2015 Share Posted July 26, 2015 You still arent addressing any of my detailed points at all. You literally just straight up told me that you could copy and paste shadows of the dead with literally no changes at all to ash(and it would still fit ash's theme just as well)easier than you could copy and paste desecrate onto another frame. I dont even... I even went into detail as to why you could, despite you claiming you couldn't. You just refuse to hear it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)WiiConquered Posted July 26, 2015 Share Posted July 26, 2015 You stated all those things before, yet you have not supported them. What kind of support do you expect?!? Are you going to tell me modding for Desecrate makes Shadows better? Will you say players don't expect Nekros to give them loot? Are you going to tell me it has synergy with his kit? Are you going to tell me it's not literally pushing a button to get rewards AKA Skinner's Box? Frankly, if you want to argue against the things I've said you need to be the one to support them, because nothing I said is revolutionary or surprising. The only reason youd need more support is if you were trying to avoid seeing Desecrate as it is, and in that case nothing I could add would help you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archwizard Posted July 26, 2015 Share Posted July 26, 2015 (edited) Please show me that definition. To be more clear, no Warframe ability is a 'skill' unto itself - their usage merely presents opportunities to demonstrate the skills you, as a player, can apply. (While before I was using agreeable phrases, for the sake of further discussion, I'll use more deliberate terminology.) skill skil/ noun noun: skill the ability to do something well; expertise. "difficult work, taking great skill" synonyms: expertise, skillfulness, expertness, adeptness, adroitness, deftness,dexterity, ability, prowess, mastery, competence, capability, aptitude,artistry, virtuosity, talent "his skill as a politician" antonyms: incompetence Offensive abilities like Fireball present the player's skill in how you can apply the damage - land a headshot, double the output; time it right, stunlock the target. Defensive abilities like Iron Skin present the player's skill in how you can negate damage - time it right, block status applications even if enemy output will dissolve the skin. Desecrate has no skill ceiling to its usage. At best, you spam the button until the corpse disappears. At worst, you... spam the button until the corpse disappears. Nothing in its effectiveness is up to the player - even the element of timing is a nonissue since you can't even cast it without a corpse in the vicinity. It is simply an action, like eating or breathing - no talent behind it. Edited July 26, 2015 by Archwizard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)DesecratedFlame Posted July 26, 2015 Share Posted July 26, 2015 Frankly, if you want to argue against the things I've said you need to be the one to support them, because nothing I said is revolutionary or surprising. You made a claim. The burden of proof is on you to prove it. To be more clear, no Warframe ability is a 'skill' unto itself Another definition of skill is "a developed or acquired ability". That means all of the frames abilities are skills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBrsrkr Posted July 26, 2015 Share Posted July 26, 2015 Another definition of skill is "a developed or acquired ability". That means all of the frames abilities are skills. By that logic, weapons are skills too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archwizard Posted July 26, 2015 Share Posted July 26, 2015 Another definition of skill is "a developed or acquired ability". That means all of the frames abilities are skills. No, their abilities are inherent, built into the frame's functions. The only "development" is in how the player uses them, and Desecrate's use never changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)WiiConquered Posted July 26, 2015 Share Posted July 26, 2015 (edited) You made a claim. The burden of proof is on you to prove it. Another definition of skill is "a developed or acquired ability". That means all of the frames abilities are skills. You are also making a claim, which by your love for playing with words instead of meanings you should realize. Because what I said is self evident, and I did back it up with evidence, I see no need to do so until it satisfies you. I could find the By the Numbers showing Desecrate as the most used ability (7X more than the next) despite being on a frame that isn't used a lot. I could show you how maxing efficiency and range to improve Desecrate leaves you with weak, easily killed Shadows that last seconds. I could make you watch a video about Skinner's Box and what it is, if you don't know already, and how Desecrate is the same on a fundamental level.But then you'd probably want a third layer of proof ("show me DE's internal metrics calculations" "recreate Skinner's Box to prove his experiment wasn't flawed"), or maybe try to play more word games ("Well, running is an ability and it's clearly used more than Desecrate"), or do something else to deflect from the main point so I won't bother. Edited July 26, 2015 by (PS4)WiiConquered Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)DesecratedFlame Posted July 26, 2015 Share Posted July 26, 2015 No, their abilities are inherent, built into the frame's functions. The only "development" is in how the player uses them, and Desecrate's use never changes. You start with one skill. It is developed by leveling up. The others are also acquired and developed by leveling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBrsrkr Posted July 26, 2015 Share Posted July 26, 2015 You start with one skill. It is developed by leveling up. The others are also acquired and developed by leveling.Doesn't that make weapons skills too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archwizard Posted July 26, 2015 Share Posted July 26, 2015 You start with one skill. It is developed by leveling up. The others are also acquired and developed by leveling. [size=2]Just going to ignore the urge to use "back in my day" as an argument...[/size] While you're busy arguing semantics, you still haven't countered that the ability itself is mindless and takes no skill to optimize. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)DesecratedFlame Posted July 26, 2015 Share Posted July 26, 2015 I could find the By the Numbers showing Desecrate as the most used skill (7X more than the next) despite being on a frame that isn't used a lot. That's part of the problem. DE is just looking at how many times a skill is activated rather than how it is used. That's why GPull not nerfed instead of Peacemakers, because peacemaker can be activated once and last a ridiculous amount of time, so it won't show up at the top of those lists. It's the same with other long duration skills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)DesecratedFlame Posted July 26, 2015 Share Posted July 26, 2015 Just going to ignore the urge to use "back in my day" as an argument... While you're busy arguing semantics, you still haven't countered that the ability itself is mindless and takes no skill to optimize. That's because I don't agree with his assessment (also semantics) that abilities are not skills in and off themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBrsrkr Posted July 26, 2015 Share Posted July 26, 2015 That's because I don't agree with his assessment (also semantics) that abilities are not skills in and off themselves.Because they aren't.By your definition, guns would be a skill. MODS would be a skill. Tell me with all honesty that you think that these should be defined as skills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfssenger Posted July 26, 2015 Share Posted July 26, 2015 He seems fine to me, you have two modes, nekro farmer and defense monster with the ult augment. What with spammable spooky and 90+ percent damage redux with his ult, he's a defense monster especially whenyou built around duration Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)DesecratedFlame Posted July 26, 2015 Share Posted July 26, 2015 Because they aren't. By your definition, guns would be a skill. MODS would be a skill. Tell me with all honesty that you think that these should be defined as skills. I don't think they would. Also, it isn't my definition. It's Merriam Websters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archwizard Posted July 26, 2015 Share Posted July 26, 2015 I could find the By the Numbers showing Desecrate as the most used ability (7X more than the next) despite being on a frame that isn't used a lot. Here, by the way. That's part of the problem. DE is just looking at how many times a skill is activated rather than how it is used. Please, if that were the case Desecrate's usage wouldn't be a joke to them. (Not the only time they've done that, I'm just too lazy to search through every stream for the very mention of Nekros.) The same data shows a more-used frame (Saryn) with a less-used ability that clearly took the same efforts to spam (Miasma), wherein the whole point of builds is to minimize the duration you speak of that would dilute the field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)WiiConquered Posted July 26, 2015 Share Posted July 26, 2015 I don't think they would. Also, it isn't my definition. It's Merriam Websters. His point is that the definition you're using doesn't apply to Warframe powers, which means it's irrelevant. Although it doesn't matter in the end, as it has little to do with whether Desecrate should stay or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)DesecratedFlame Posted July 26, 2015 Share Posted July 26, 2015 His point is that the definition you're using doesn't apply to Warframe powers, which means it's irrelevant. Although it doesn't matter in the end, as it has little to do with whether Desecrate should stay or not. It applies more than the other fellow used, but I agree. It is ultimately irrelevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBrsrkr Posted July 26, 2015 Share Posted July 26, 2015 It applies more than the other fellow used, but I agree. It is ultimately irrelevant.If it's so ultimately irrelevant, why'd you bring it up in the first place? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)DesecratedFlame Posted July 26, 2015 Share Posted July 26, 2015 If it's so ultimately irrelevant, why'd you bring it up in the first place? I didn't. I only replied to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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