The New Utility Mod Slot, It's Actually Backwards Thinking And A Band Aid Solution

[Cpl_Facehugger]

"The current mod system doesn't allow customization."

 

Speed Nova versus slow Nova? Reckoning Oberon vs Hallowed Ground Oberon? Shattershield Mesa versus Peacemaker Mesa? Blind Excalibro vs Exalted Blade Excalibro? Disarm Loki versus Permainvis Loki?

 

All of these builds play massively different from one another. I'd say that the current mod system allows plenty of customization. I agree that some "essential" mods would do better folded into frame levelup bonuses (ie redirection/vitality/vigor), but to say there's not a lot of customization available in this game is patently false.

Edited July 26, 2015 by Cpl_Facehugger

[7grims]

"The current mod system doesn't allow customization."

 

Speed Nova versus slow Nova? Reckoning Oberon vs Hallowed Ground Oberon? Shattershield Mesa versus Peacemaker Mesa? Blind Excalibro vs Exalted Blade Excalibro? Disarm Loki versus Permainvis Loki?

 

All of these builds play massively different from one another. I'd say that the current mod system allows plenty of customization. I agree that some "essential" mods would do better folded into frame levelup bonuses (ie redirection/vitality/vigor), but to say there's not a lot of customization available in this game is patently false.

 

And you call that diversity?

You just limited those frames do the few build everyone ever uses and ever existed to beat meta.

Yes, modding nowadays is restricting yourself to the few possibilities presented to you.

You either give power to the damage frames, or you give continuity or range to the tactical frames, and some you can choose 1 built or the other.

Tons and tons of mods, never used, because those are the few mandatory builds for optimal gaming.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

"The current mod system doesn't allow customization."

 

Speed Nova versus slow Nova?

Nope. Speed Nova and Slova are so common and set in stone that they have their own nick names that every one recognizes. You don't even have to say more than Speed Nova for people to know what you are talking about.

[AlphaHorseman]

Nope. Speed Nova and Slova are so common and set in stone that they have their own nick names that every one recognizes. You don't even have to say more than Speed Nova for people to know what you are talking about.

That's still customization though. Just because they have nicknames doesn't mean that they aren't customizations and specializations of a Frame.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

That's still customization though. Just because they have nicknames doesn't mean that they aren't customizations and specializations of a Frame.

They are a predefined min-max builds. Customizations would imply that they are fully unique and you would need to see a build planner to understand the build, rather than just hearing their names.

[MopUpCrewman]

Everyone's talking about putting Rush in that slot and I'm just waiting to put Handspring in there.

[AutoPhox]

DE mentioned new parkor mods, which i assume will fit in the utility slot too. There might be a treasure in there that will rival Rush or Handspring...

I think this new Slot is a small step forward in addressing the "essential mods" build issue. 

[Cpl_Facehugger]

And you call that diversity?

You just limited those frames do the few build everyone ever uses and ever existed to beat meta.

Yes, modding nowadays is restricting yourself to the few possibilities presented to you.

You either give power to the damage frames, or you give continuity or range to the tactical frames, and some you can choose 1 built or the other.

Tons and tons of mods, never used, because those are the few mandatory builds for optimal gaming.

 

Yes, I call being able to radically change how a given frame plays diversity. I call two otherwise identical frames that play hugely differently depending on their build diversity. What else would I call it?

 

Now, for the rest of your feedback... Dude, there's always going to be an "optimal" build. There's no actual way to change this. The formation of a player metagame is an emergent thing that comes about because of how players work. You can't change this, it's flat out impossible. Any game where you allow character building - and yes,Warfarm back when it had skill trees instead of mods was like this - will inevitably have optimal builds.

 

This is why the introduction of a utility slot is such an excellent idea, because suddenly handspring or whatever isn't competing with power damage/range/etc, it's competing with rush or quick rest or maglev or intruder - mods that are more in its weight class. Suddenly the calculus behind these niche mods pushes us to use them, since they don't have to compete with essentials.

 

Nope. Speed Nova and Slova are so common and set in stone that they have their own nick names that every one recognizes. You don't even have to say more than Speed Nova for people to know what you are talking about.

 

Uh... Yes? How is this in any way a response to what I said? The players come up with nicknames for particularly popular builds? Yeah, so? This in no way changes the fact that builds can indeed be diverse and that a frame who builds for one power can play completely differently than one who builds for another.

[AlphaHorseman]

They are a predefined min-max builds. Customizations would imply that they are fully unique and you would need to see a build planner to understand the build, rather than just hearing their names.

Those builds are fully unique. Just becase they're maxed for one specialization doesn't mean they lack customization, because they specialize a frame from one way or another, that is the very definition of building diversely.

[7grims]

Yes, I call being able to radically change how a given frame plays diversity. I call two otherwise identical frames that play hugely differently depending on their build diversity. What else would I call it?

 

Now, for the rest of your feedback... Dude, there's always going to be an "optimal" build. There's no actual way to change this. The formation of a player metagame is an emergent thing that comes about because of how players work. You can't change this, it's flat out impossible. Any game where you allow character building - and yes,Warfarm back when it had skill trees instead of mods was like this - will inevitably have optimal builds.

 

Again, you named 2 different builds, two (2), and that diversity?

Diversity is all the possible combinations of builds, taking in account we have tons of mods, making all those combinations would give out more then 1000 unique/possible builds (2 builds isn't diversity), such builds never exist cause we are stuck in meta.

 

And no, its possible, its very possible, if DE removes the mandatory mods, and make them inbuilt stats (or whatever other solution), we get a mod system full of rush and handspring mods, some ppl will always like to have maglev, others will always like to have warm coat, others loot/radar mods, etc.

Nowadays, we all have either shield/health/armor mods, and then we either go strength or continuity/range depending on the frame.

Currently we all use this meta way of thinking, and we all use the same builds, if u end up with a speed nova and I with a slow nova, that is still not diversity.

[7grims]

Those builds are fully unique. Just becase they're maxed for one specialization doesn't mean they lack customization, because they specialize a frame from one way or another, that is the very definition of building diversely.

 

Nop, that is the definition of building according to a restrict meta content.

You may have 1 or 2 mods in ur build that no other person remembers to use, and ur unique there, but in everything else, the usual suspect mods are the same as the majority of the player base.

In the end, there is 2 or 3 builds everyone uses, that only differ in "this build is more range" and "that build is more continuity" and "this build is pure strength".  And to finish, you choose health or shields or armor.

 

No one dares to make a build that only uses utility mods, cause that would be suicide.

No one actually does those diverse builds, because we are restricted to the meta mods, that are so necessary for basic stat enhancing.

Edited July 27, 2015 by 7grims

[AlphaHorseman]

Nop, that is the definition of building according to a restrict meta content.

You may have 1 or 2 mods in ur build that no other person remembers to use, and ur unique there, but in everything else, the usual suspect mods are the same as the majority of the player base.

In the end, there is 2 or 3 builds everyone uses, that only differ in "this build is more range" and "that build is more continuity" and "this build is pure strength".  And to finish, you choose health or shields or armor.

 

No one dares to make a build that only uses utility mods, cause that would be suicide.

No one actually does those diverse builds, because we are restricted to the meta mods, that are so necessary for basic stat enhancing.

That does not discount that this is still build diversity, as there is not one strict way to build a frame, there are multiple ways to build any frame. Extended Duration Mirage or Disco Ball Flashy Mirage, High Efficiency Trinity, Extended Duration Trinity, or Health Tank (Rage and Quick Thinking) Trinity, and so on. Just because these builds are widely known and have nicknames does not mean that they are not build diversities towards different frames.

 

By these builds very nature, they are diverse in their application and their creation. You don't use the same mods on a Radial Disarm build that you do an Extended Duration Invisibility build.

[7grims]

-snip-

 

-snip-

 

Lets analyze it:

 

1 or 2 of these mods are always in your frames:

(few ppl that state they use none)

vitality

redirection

steel fiber

vigor

(7 or 6 remaining slots)

 

from 3 up to 6 of these mods are always in your frames:

intensify

blind rage

transient fortitude

stretch

overextended

continuity

narrow minded

(2 or 3 remaining slots)

 

1 or both these mods are in all your frames:

fleeting expertise

streamline

(1 or 2 slots remaining)

 

From now on you have a little free choice, you can either go with some utility mods, or reinforce your frame a little more with quick thinking, or equilibrium, etc.

 

So I named 13 mods for 6 out of 7 slots.

You got 1 or 2 slots for utility, etc. (not counting the future utility slot yet)

What is the use of the other 100+ existing frame mods? It's an entire mod system for 13 mods.

And all that "diversity" I presented is just a formula, its not based on players choice, nor playing style, its based on what is needed to achieve meta.

Edited July 27, 2015 by 7grims

[Omnimorph]

Again, you named 2 different builds, two (2), and that diversity?

Diversity is all the possible combinations of builds, taking in account we have tons of mods, making all those combinations would give out more then 1000 unique/possible builds (2 builds isn't diversity), such builds never exist cause we are stuck in meta.

 

And no, its possible, its very possible, if DE removes the mandatory mods, and make them inbuilt stats (or whatever other solution), we get a mod system full of rush and handspring mods, some ppl will always like to have maglev, others will always like to have warm coat, others loot/radar mods, etc.

Nowadays, we all have either shield/health/armor mods, and then we either go strength or continuity/range depending on the frame.

Currently we all use this meta way of thinking, and we all use the same builds, if u end up with a speed nova and I with a slow nova, that is still not diversity.

 

There are "mandatory" mods from two points of view:-

 

1) the meta

 

2) min-maxing a frame's capabilities wrt your playstyle (i.e. making the frame best at what it does in the context of what you want out of it with your playstyle.

 

But 1) is only "mandatory" in that sense if and when you want to run with meta groups.  Outside that, with 2) there's a huge range of viable builds.

 

For example, with Nova, yes there's the two meta builds, but there's also a countless range of possible builds inbetween, and along parameters like tankiness, etc.  Particularly for non-camping Survival, there's actually no need for full duration on a slow build, so you can play around with things like tankiness, power strength and range (range is useful for the teleport but also for the chain reaction from MP, which works pretty well if you have decent power strength - etc., etc., there's quite a lot of variation possible here).

 

Warframe actually has very good build diversity IMHO, so long as you're not hung up on the meta.

 

Wrt Serration and damage mods generally - damage mods are a good idea, and having damage scale with weapon levelling would lessen diversity.  Apart from Serration, its equivalents in the other weapons, and the multishot mods, the other damage mods are useful to have at various levels of pips because of the trade-offs.  Also, having the damage mods have big numbers is psychologically satisfying, builds anticipation while you're gradually fusing the mods, and makes "completing" your weapons have a sense of achievement.

 

I say again, apart from a few imbalances and tweaks here and there, there's actually very little wrong with the mod system as it stands.  Utility and flavour always ought to be something apart from the fine-tuning of what a character or weapon does best, and having a utility mod is long overdue.

Edited July 27, 2015 by Omnimorph

[AlphaHorseman]

Lets analyze it:

 

1 or 2 of these mods are always in your frames:

(few ppl that state they use none)

vitality

redirection

steel fiber

vigor

(7 or 6 remaining slots)

 

from 3 up to 6 of these mods are always in your frames:

intensify

blind rage

transient fortitude

stretch

overextended

continuity

narrow minded

(2 or 3 remaining slots)

 

1 or both these mods are in all your frames:

fleeting expertise

streamline

(1 or 2 slots remaining)

 

From now on you have a little free choice, you can either go with some utility mods, or reinforce your frame a little more with quick thinking, or equilibrium, etc.

 

So I named 13 mods for 6 out of 7 slots.

You got 1 or 2 slots for utility, etc. (not counting the future utility slot yet)

What is the use of the other 100+ existing frame mods? It's an entire mod system for 13 mods.

And all that "diversity" I presented is just a formula, its not based on players choice, nor playing style, its based on what is needed to achieve meta.

Actually, it's a bit more than that.

 

For example:

 

My Trinity build has Quick Thinking and Rage, rather than just Vitality outright. I do have Intensify, however, and Streamline. Natural Talent goes in because bloody Link takes forever to cast. Vigor does go in as well, and to top it all off, Stretch.

 

That's three mods that you hadn't put into the "meta". That's if you're going for Health Tank Trin. High Efficiency Trin does have Streamline and Vitality though, but they do differ from each other by more than just a single mod.

 

That is still diversifying builds from one another.

 

Even Loki's specializations. Extended Duration Invis needs Narrow Minded, Constitution (another you had not listed), and Continuity for maxed duration. While, if you were going for the Radial Disarm build, Streamline, Stretch, Overextended, and Fleeting Expertise are your avenues.

 

I understand that these are what people call the "Essential" mods, but they are still diversified builds because they specialize a frame in different ways for different purposes, thus diversifying the Frames uses. 

 

----

 

The issue, then, comes not only from the lack of slots, but the viability of the other mods. If those utility mods could actually compete realistically with the other mods, then this issue wouldn't come up. However, they do not. That's why the Utility Slot is here, because no matter how DE alters the current mods, they aren't going to be essential to builds, just as many augments are not.

 

How then, would you propose solving this issue?

[7grims]

-snip-

 

I dare you, double dare you, to play any content beyond lvl 15, whiteout any of the mods I stated (in my reply to alphahorseman and cpl_facehugger), plus, no use of any serration or serration like mods.

 

Now, go play the game.

How far can you reach?

How much stuff can you acquire? Since you wont be able to get to the middle and hard planets, nor half the void missions.

How much fun will you have being stuck in mercury, earth and venus?

 

And you say its the players fault, for choosing to be meta?

And you say they are allot of perfect builds?

[7grims]

How then, would you propose solving this issue?

 

Removing all these essential mods.

Then balancing the game/frames, and/or compensate for the lack of these mods with something (maybe inbuilt stat upgrader).

 

Inb4: "that is too much work/trouble!"

De did it when they transisted from skill tree to mod system

DE did it when the dmage 2.0 came out (allot of re-balancing and rework)

DE it whit melee 2.0 (they had to readjust all melees)

DE is doing it with movement 2.0 ( they are reshaping allot of stuff just for the new moves)

 

EDIT:

Shouldn't have replied that.

You cannot ask for a solution, if you don't understand that there is problem.

I want to convince DE and the community, that the problem is still here.

Whoever finds the solution for it, congrats to him/her/them, and that can only be achieved after admitting there is a problem.

Edited July 27, 2015 by 7grims

[AlphaHorseman]

Removing all these essential mods.

Then balancing the game/frames, and/or compensate for the lack of these mods with something (maybe inbuilt stat upgrader).

 

Inb4: "that is too much work/trouble!"

De did it when they transisted from skill tree to mod system

DE did it when the dmage 2.0 came out (allot of re-balancing and rework)

DE it whit melee 2.0 (they had to readjust all melees)

DE is doing it with movement 2.0 ( they are reshaping allot of stuff just for the new moves)

You do realize that, this time around that's going to be even more so compounded than before, correct? The content has grown immensely since Skill Trees and Damage 2.0. Melee still requires massive work. You aren't just talking about one system here, you're talking about the entire game.

 

Rather than completely scrap the work they put into the system, just have these "essential" mods be built into the Frames and Weapons. Thus, DE can adjust stats on each WarFrame and Weapon to ensure that the Weapons are Tiered, and that all WarFrames have diversity. However, the adjustments to range, duration, efficiency, and power strength become more problematic, as that completely negates players from freely choosing how to mod Frame Powers.

 

If the change you speak of was applied to solely WarFrame stats, then sure. But if it's also inclusive to powers, then therein lies a very bad problem. If those stats were built in, we wouldn't be able to diversify our powers behaviors because of this, and players lose the freedom that WarFrame allots to all.

[2ply]

In the short run, and narrow view of this new mod slot, hurray, yes, its a great thing.

In the long run, and analyzing the new mod slot, this is completely backwards game development.

 

The great idea of the mod system, was to offer players choice, diversity, and customizable playing styles.

The current mod system, is a basic stats upgrader, were you only equip mandatory and essential mods, to enhance all the basic stats that are needed for quality of playing, surviving, and dps.

 

The new utility mod slot, should actually be all the mod slots, because that is the concept of the mod system.

Or else we dont need a mod system, and a upgrade skill tree would have suffice.

 

Augment mods are also the only true mods (modifiers), these are the only ones that actually change how you play and how you choose to face a battle field, but they become non-usable, since if you don't occupy all your slots with basic dps and resistance mods you cant fight/live long enough to even use your enhanced powers.

 

 

After reading the entire post, I agree with you here on a lot of the issues with the mod system. When I learned of this "utility" slot I just said...WHY....it is simply another slot. Why not just give BACK the 2 slots that were taken away when they changed the Warframe Powers from mods to unlocking permanents.

 

I would have rather seen utility slots applied to the Warframe Powers themselves. So that when we apply a power augment we do not need to sacrifice Warframe slots..

 

Expressed here in this crude diagram I made a while back before the changes to warframe powers happened:

 

 

^^ the diagram above is OLD (03/22/14)...taken from this thread: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/199482-introducing-mod-consolidator-a-dojo-tech-solution-to-consolidate-mod-level-sets/?p=2318868

 

perhaps this would be better than to simply give back the 2 Warframe slots we lost in the aforementioned change. 

 

Most can agree with you on how many of the mods are simply "required fodder" to obtain a viable build and what you discuss here is not only addressing the current failure of a "utility" slot but a much greater issue that will require far more thought than my suggested approach.

 

Good luck to DE.

[(PSN)Crimson_Judgment]

If Enemies didn't scale like they do we wouldn't need to be so powerful and we could theoretically get rid of these mods

But enemies can Dish out so much damage and take so much abuse that they're necessary.

 

And before anyone says the enemies are weak

Just because you

1 - took the enemies guns away with loki

2 - Nuked the Map with Saryn

3 - Hide in a snowglobe

4 - Slow them to a crawl with molecular prime

 

or CC the enemies in some way shape or form doesn't mean they're any weaker

As soon As the enemies stop being so OP We can stop being so OP at the same time

[7grims]

-snip-

 

Thats why I immediately regretted replying you whit a suggestion.

I replied to so many others that this is not a suggestion/idea tread, and yet I fail when I answered you.

 

I'm even gonna state I do not care to find the solution, and I don't care how hard it is, let DE figure it out and take the heat.

This tread is to admit, realize, recognize there is a problem, cause only after we have perceived the problem, we can all move forward to find the solution.

 

Right now, no one cares for a solution, because we are all blindly celebrating the free mod slot band-aid.

Edited July 27, 2015 by 7grims

[Temfist]

ya know, if DE consolidated the "Utility" mods into things that are actually really valuable

 

ie;

*all movment speed based mods like Maglev and Rush were fused into one "overall speed mod" where you go faster then normal, and gain additional speed when performing wall runs and slides.

 

*All damage resistance mods (based on conditions) fused into one, giving you damage reduction to elemental damage, reducing the effects of status anomolies, and giving you damage reduction wall running or air borne (making you feel more like a tanky ninja when you play like a ninja).

 

*All CC resistance mods fused into one, making you recover from Stagger/Blast/Knockdown/Ragdoll quickly, allowing you to resist knockdowns when doing certain things or have chances of being unaffected by them, etc.

 

*All stamina related mods, fused into one, so that your warframe regains stamina faster, and uses less from every activity, etc.

 

Doing this with Utility mods makes them feel like a big deal, and thus limiting us to one slot feels a lot more like a design choice to help incentivise play style focus rather then a band aid fix to utility mods.

Edited July 27, 2015 by Temphis

[AlphaHorseman]

Thats why I immediately regretted replying you whit a suggestion.

I replied to so many others that this is not a suggestion/idea tread, and yet I fail when I answered you.

 

I'm even gonna state I do not care to find the solution, and I don't care how hard it is, let DE figure it out and take the heat.

This tread is to admit, realize, recognize there is a problem, cause only after we have perceived the problem, we can all move forward to find the solution.

 

Right now, no one cares for a solution, because we are all blindly celebrating the free mod slot band-aid.

Making me feel special, haha.

 

But, in all seriousness, I can see what you mean. It's going to be super difficult advancing the WarFrame modding system, but hey, that's why we're in BETA, no? We just have to ensure that the mod system does improve.

 

The Utility Mod Slot is actually be a good thing, as now we have a place to put them in the mean-time.

[motorfirebox]

Dude, there's always going to be an "optimal" build. There's no actual way to change this. The formation of a player metagame is an emergent thing that comes about because of how players work. You can't change this, it's flat out impossible. Any game where you allow character building - and yes,Warfarm back when it had skill trees instead of mods was like this - will inevitably have optimal builds.

I don't think that's actually true, but making the build system non-meta-able would require a radically different approach that would tie builds much more strongly to personal playstyle. Essentially, you make almost all mods, especially those that provide direct increases to output and survivability, conditional. You make them so that they only work during certain movement modes (sliding, jumping, aimgliding) or as a time-limited effect after certain actions (headshot, melee kill, stealth kill) or otherwise limited by a combinational requirement (e.g. an ice damage mod that only works when the target is on fire).

 

If you make a set of mods like that, and you keep an eye out for obvious exploits (e.g. large amounts of +damage under conditions that are very easy to meet), you can make it so that the "best" build for you depends entirely on your preferred playstyle. If you're a beast at landing headshots on the move, stack on "while moving" and "on/after headshot" mods and go to town. Otherwise, maybe you might be best off putting fire damage on your pistol and using that "only when target is on fire" ice mod on your rifle. Or the one that adds a smaller amount of flat +damage when you're sticking to a wall (since that's an easy condition to meet and doesn't impose any difficulty with aiming). You could even keep the "always on" versions, they'd just be massively toned down compared to the conditional versions.

[LazyBlissIV]

What if you could fuse mods to combine stat benefits, but it increased the cost higher than the existing multi stat mods